Peoples Beef with ST: Enterprise

Yook

I was just wondering, the majority of people who i've talked to about ST: Enterprise have basically told me the series is a joke. The thing is, some of the people who have said it was terrible haven't watched a lot of it. I've aquired all the series and have been watching them, i'm currently nearing the end of the 2nd Series and I must say its not as bad as people have been saying. In fact, its quite a good series.

It seems to me that people disliking Enterprise as a series has become trendy among Sci Fi watchers. Is it just the "oopsie" they made with the opening title or do people genuinely not like the series?

monkeyfudge

I watched the first few episodes and then dismissed as not being very good.

But I came back and started watching again around half way through season 2 and found that it had improved alot. Seasons 3 and 4 were really good television actually... although the last couple of episodes in season 4 were a huge let down.

Star Trek series always take a bit of time to find thier legs... I wasn't impressed with The Next Generation, Deep Space Nine and Voyager when they started either... but they all found their legs soon enough... Although I think Voyager is the weakest Star Trek series of all time... Around series 3 and 4 they seemed to be getting a few pretty good episodes out... but towards the end I found it almost completely unwatchable.

_Kaiser_

Let's see:

- The Enterprise herself (or Akiraprise if you prefer). Blatently ripped off from an existing design and too advanced-looking for Kirk's NCC-1701 that is to follow (highlighted more so by the USS Defiant in "In A Mirror, Darkly). I'm not saying they should have gone retro with the design, but a bit more thought into design lineage should have been given.

- The finale was terrible. I wasn't exactly fond of the series anyway (the only Trek of recent years that I didn't really mind missing episodes of), but they deserved at least their own "farewell" show rather than the "The Pegasus, part II" episode they ended up with... I'll skip the rest of the problems with this episode as they've been discussed at length in other threads.

- 95% of the series was about Archer, Trip and T'Pol, DS9 handled this best, not only having episodes/story arcs devoted to each main character, but a huge array of supporting characters too, but in Enterprise the rest of the main cast were reduced to little more than extras really... example: didn't someone here ask what Mayweather's first name was lately?

- Introducing the Ferengi ahead of their TNG debut and expecting that the audience will accept it because they never actually said "Ferengi" in the show.

- The Borg in "Regeneration". Again messes with continuity. More so that Voyager's 2-part "Dark Frontier" which established that the Hansen's knew (somehow!) about the Borg long before the Enterprise-D left the shipyard.
About the only interesting thing Enterprise managed to do continuity-wise was establish why TOS's Klingons looked the way they did.

- It was BORING.. None of the crew progressed in any way I could see. In TNG, Geordi moved to engineering, Worf to tactical, Wesley (annoying tho he was) becomes an ensign, Riker is offered (several) commands etc etc.
DS9 (as mentioned above) handled character development best of all, but in Enterprise everyone plods along in the same job for years - even in the finale nothing's changed except they have name patches on their uniforms now! :rolleyes:

- It didn't feel like Star Trek. Most of the stories could be just as easily ported to any other generic "sci-fi action show with aliens".. especially the oft-hailed Xindi-arc of season 3... there was too much emphasis on flashy effects and space battles and not enough on the underlying story. Once more, DS9 had some HUGE battles too, but in the majority of cases, not at the expense of the plot or the characters.
That said the ONE Enterprise story I genuinely enjoyed (despite the somewhat rushed and open ending) was the 2-part "In a Mirror, Darkly".

My 2 cents anyway. I won't miss Enterprise I'm afraid. Cancellation was the best thing that could happen to it in my opinion.

bizmark

^ I agree with every thing he said

example: didn't someone here ask what Mayweather's first name was lately?

Ya that was me couldnt remember his name and i know the class of warp drive the e-d has :rolleyes:

monkeyfudge

I like Star Trek a lot... but I guess I'm not a die hard fan...

So they introduced the Ferengi and the Borg before time and the ship didn't look as crap as the original Enterprise from Kirk's era... big deal...

There was still a lot of well written and well acted episodes in there that made for good television.

I had no problem with it having a theme song either and I found it really grew on me too.

It's odd.. I absolutely hated the In A Mirror Darkly episodes as they had no bearing whatsoever on the regular characters. When they did Mirror universe plots in the original series and in DS9 they both had regular characters in them... but In A Mirror Darkly just felt like a completely pointless exercise.

_Kaiser_

monkeyfudge wrote:

So they introduced the Ferengi and the Borg before time and the ship didn't look as crap as the original Enterprise from Kirk's era... big deal...

it is when you consider that prior to this series - and Voyager to an extent - they were pretty good at staying within established canon and seemed to make a conscious effort to do so.. ie: the pre B&B years.

There was still a lot of well written and well acted episodes in there that made for good television.

maybe, but that doesn't necessarily make it Star Trek does it? TNG & DS9 had some of the best episodes ever seen in Trek (The Inner Light, Yesterday's Enterprise, In The Pale Moonlight, Far Beyond The Stars etc) if not sci-fi/TV drama in general. I can't think of ONE Enterprise episode that matches this standard.

I had no problem with it having a theme song either and I found it really grew on me too.

Wasn't pushed either way on the titles, though "In A Mirror, Darkly"'s were very inventive I thought

It's odd.. I absolutely hated the In A Mirror Darkly episodes as they had no bearing whatsoever on the regular characters.

Which is probably why I liked it cause it was interesting and different, and the characters had a bit more life to them.. something sadly lacking from most of the series.

muckwarrior

I only managed to catch the odd episode of Enterprise when it was on air and was never very impressed. But I've just started watching the whole thing through and I must say I'm liking it more and more. There are definitely a few cringe-worthy episodes, especially in series one, but I'm just about to start series 3 and I'm finding it compelling viewing.

There are a couple of things that have annoyed me, like the Borg episode, and that godawful theme tune. But it's kinda sad that there's no more Star Trek being made for TV any more. I'd sure as hell rather have enterprise than no star trek at all!

muckwarrior

OMFG :eek:
I've just watched the first episode in the third series. I just can't quite believe it. They done what I thought was utterly impossible....




They managed to make the theme tune even shítter!!!!

Jack B. Badd

muckwarrior wrote:

They managed to make the theme tune even shítter!!!!

The original tune reminds me of the one from CSI:NY. I can't decide which one's worse though!

DonkeyStyle \o/

monkeyfudge wrote:

Although I think Voyager is the weakest Star Trek series of all time...

Aww... I love Voyager... it's joint 1st with TNG imo... DS9 I thought was a lot worse, Sisco got on my nerves with his Shatner acting/speaking.
Jake!... WHAT!..... areyoudoing?
Irritating... he's exactly the same in American History X.

cuppa

sounds like kasier2000 is a ds9 soap in space fan ,,,well i though Enterprise was the best star trek in a long time ,,just cos it was cut short messed it up.
There was a lot of storys to come.
Archer was a good captin compared with who.I wanted to see the romulan war and the kling war starting ..But guess BSG,and new shows took over.
They must of seen what was comming,and shows like enterprise could not make it in the new usa.Thats all ,,new shows new tv,,new world orde..food please

Dirk Gently

Enterprise is just one place above voyager at the bottom of the trek list and that’s just because T'pol is a royde. I think it was the intro song that killed it for me. Nothing short of captain archer quantum leaping through space into the bodies of kinky klingon lesbian ladies and romulan commanders with only a perverted cigar smoking hologram called Al for company was going to save the show after such an awful melodramatic song. Unfortunately they gave him a dog instead.

DonkeyStyle \o/

lol what's wrong with Voyager, I don't get it

Dirk Gently

DonkeyStyle \o/ wrote:

lol what's wrong with Voyager, I don't get it

jayneway, nelix, tom paris, tuvok, kez, that little kid Naomi, coffee nebulas, jayneway, Harry Kim, jayneway, bilana (she was a female klingon and they still couldn't make her interesting, ffs) did I mention jayneway, that silly indian first officer who had all the emotions of a Vulcan and couldn't find his way out of a turbo lift never mind have a dream quest, and Borg nano probes to get them out of every hairy situation.

On the plus side there was seiska ( i love the bloody cardies), the Doctor and 7 of 9's "Borg enhancements" but the other dull characters together with boring story lines really let the show down. There was so much potential with a ship alone on the far side of the galaxy but they managed to make it the most anal starfleet inspired show there was. They could have thrown in a few darker story lines and hostile aliens that actually looked like they could threaten the ship. (The kaison don't count, they were wimps) the only interesting patch of the show was the temporary alliance with the Borg.

DonkeyStyle \o/

Yeah I'm laughing away to myself reading that, and nodding, it's all very true
I was just thinking the other night while watching it how much of a dry/dull/uninteresting charicter Chakotay is... he reminds me of Riker, only without the charm or sass.
Ensign Kim, also pretty one-dimensional.
Neelix you just want to punch in the face over and over every time he talks.
Janeways voice really got on my nerves for a long time aswell... and the number of times she passes up easy opportunities to get her crew home for the sake of her morals... hello? Q? ... all the while, píssing and moaning about getting her crew home really makes me dislike her.

I think 7 of 9 really improved the series though, it's like having a Data charicter again... a role which neither the EMH nor Tuvok could really fill IMO.

Ah those nanoprobes, is there nothing they can't do
Though every series has its own hammy fix-everything wonder-solutions... why if I had a penny for every time Jordie re-routed power to the main deflector grid, I'd be a very wealthy man.
It's just suspension of disbelief really... so I'm letting the nanoprobes thing slide.

muckwarrior

Voyager was one of my favs, despite the crap cast. I think DS9 was the worst ST series. The war with the dominion was pretty good but the first few series were as dull as ditchwater. One of the most exciting things that happened was when Odo lost his bucket!

Cactus Col

I loved Deep Space Nine back in the day, remember being at my cousins on a sunday afternoon, and getting hugely pissed off when they watched some crap gaa match instead of ds9. Although I think whoever said it above was right, the first series is always a bit dodgy.

Anyway, never got into enterprise, and it's voyagers fault, completly got me out of star trek, every once in a while i'd catch an episode that was good, then all of a sudden the next one would be a festering turd. And once I fell out of watching sky one at 8 pm on a monday, I never got back into it.

monkeyfudge

cuppa wrote:

They must of seen what was comming,and shows like enterprise could not make it in the new usa.Thats all ,,new shows new tv,,new world orde..food please

Well they did give it a go... Season 3 was very much a post September 11th show. It starts off with a sneak attack on Earth that kills millions and then the Enterprise is sent into an enemy territory and spends the rest of the season looking for a weapon of mass destruction.

Justice

damn i liked enterprise,

i thought archer was one of the best captains, hes class actor and i liked the character, rugged is the word that springs to mind, where i would use the worl polished to descrip picard,
trip is one of my fav ST caracters of all, a throw back to everyman o'brien.
t'pol is great, im still trying to look past her outfits (my wife was incesnsed at her, even tho seven is ok to her eyes).

to meh enterpise was ST with rough edges and lines not quiet joining but getting closer. shame it ended prematurely, i would have been happy to see 3 more seasons. and then enterprise would have had equal footing (uin terms of lenght) as the other series and im sure it would have mixed up the order of preference.


as to the "star trek timeline", well please
its ok to change the kingons from TOS style to TNG style.
but it s not alright to have a forengi shown b4 its in TNG.
its ok for the borg to go back to to zephrans cochrains time but not ok to do so in enterprise.

i smell double standards.


the laws of star trek are not the laws of physics,
if they need to bend them in favour of the current episode, go right ahead i say. you claim this might be abused, i dont think so, 99% of the stuff is fine and can be worked fine, but at times the laws goto take a hit for the sake of TV and storyline. thats whats important and what we watch, not the timeline or somesuch.


sure some of the episodes werent great.
but guess what, all the series have those.
i can think of many TNG episodes which were plainly crap (watching series 5 TNG atm, just had run of 4 decidedly dodgey episodes (the masterpiece society, conundrum, violations). enterprise has some crappy episodes 2.

entrprise has some gr8 episodes.
the andorian incident,
shuttlepod one,
carbon creek.
the vulcan trilogy in season 4 (forge,awakening and another)

season 3 is really good (and 1st 2 episodes of season 4), but best watched one after another, like the 10 episode story arc for end of DS9, tho i admit the ending is an anticlimax.

to write off the entire series without watching it is imo is a lack of respect towards the crew and creative peeps, many of whom we have admired right up from TNG.

but what we all must remember is that everyone has a valid opinion and even tho we disagree on these things star trek still emcompases all of our favourites. we are not all borg drones and its good to see that some peeps like tng, others DS9 and even some voyager. so before you condem others for appreciating their favs, which arent yours then remember that the more peeps that like it the more likely that we'll see ST back sooner rather than later.

DonkeyStyle \o/

muckwarrior wrote:

I think DS9 was the worst ST series. [..]One of the most exciting things that happened was when Odo lost his bucket!

lol same here
Although I did get to the point of watching it every day all the same.
I remember one of the most daft episodes entailed senior crew members being trapped in some kind of holodeck crash (?) where they had to sing some kids song while doing hop-scotch... something like "arabel arabel, count to four, arabel arabel, then some more"... I can clearly remember Sisko doing that... I think that was the point at which DS9 hit rock bottom in my eyes
Though I was pretty stoned at the time, so it was at least amusing.

Justice wrote:

but what we all must remember is that everyone has a valid opinion and even tho we disagree on these things star trek still emcompases all of our favourites. we are not all borg drones and its good to see that some peeps like tng, others DS9 and even some voyager. so before you condem others for appreciating their favs, which arent yours then remember that the more peeps that like it the more likely that we'll see ST back sooner rather than later.

Typical fúcking star fleet attitude... I say we each fight to the death in devotion to our faverite series.
Right, who liked DS9? C'mere... *smack*

Laguna

DS9 is my favourite Star Trek and Sisko was by far the biggest legend of a Captain, I won't hear bad about the man!. I personally can't stand Voyager, the whole butch lesbian, Salvation Army squad leader 'dynamicl' of Janeway busted my chops!..

Kojak

I think the biggest issue with Star Trek Enterprise is that it is nothing but a re-hashing of all the same old story lines from previous Star Trek shows.

Also the fact that they were introducing aliens in Enterprise that never appeared again until the middle of TNG (The Ferengi and The Borg being 2 Prime examples).

I also think that Archer was by far in a way the worst captain (of the men that is).

Justice

kojack wrote:

I think the biggest issue with Star Trek Enterprise is that it is nothing but a re-hashing of all the same old story lines from previous Star Trek shows

yes, it is true that some of the storylines were rehashed (as has been the case with some voyager), more often than not they were done so from either a different perspective. but i take that point.

Kojack wrote:

Also the fact that they were introducing aliens in Enterprise that never appeared again until the middle of TNG (The Ferengi and The Borg being 2 Prime examples).

i reject the borg being used in this example, if i remember correct the borg were not really seen by the crew and they were all destroyed. so i saw no problem there, your also glossing past first contact there as well (borg were seen then as well, by 21st centry humans no less)

sure ferengi can viewed as a "discrepency", but then if i so wanted i could claim that whos to say that the ferengi were correctly recorded by the enterprise crew. they were the forerunners for all galactic exploration so they could get some things wrong. far flimsier explanations were used to explain klingon "Make up" when TNG first came out.

as for Archer, damn i cant see how ye cant see his talent as an actor, imo hes the best captain for portraying his role, however that role is not the same as all the captains who have gone before (after )

bizmark

Thing with rehashed stories is theirs no need for it the federation itself is a large entity that we barely know anything about apart from "its a nice place to live" couldn’t we just once see a federation industry world while the ship is being refitted seeing how the less glamorous half of the federation live? or what about cardasia being rebuilt and the native population's resentment against the humans/allies rebuilding their home world.
The galaxies itself is huge why not have an arc about those little parasites that tried to take over the federation in TNG? or a moral arc about a few small relatively primitive empires fighting and Swallowing up each other leading to massive death and destruction on the federations boarder a war they could easily stop but wont, Perhaps a arc involving the federation army they don’t have to be off killing but it would be nice to see them maybe on a training exercise with Starfleet and they better have power armor and the likes etc theirs a lot of stuff that could be written about.

But i suppose ****ing up cannon by having Paris "evolve" into a reptile after breaking the warp 10 barriers is more important.

Laguna

Whatever peoples problem with Enterprise is, I think Scott Bakula did a fine job of portraying Captain Archer although I must admit I found the rest of the crew wooden..

shinzon

I agree somewhat with whats been said about enterprise here, most of the time you got a sense of deja vu, been there done that got the t-shirt

As for the borg eipsode everyones talking about i disagree, canon is anything that is seen onscreen or in official published works other then the novels, so Star Trek First contact established the borg went back in time to zefram cochranes era, the Enteprise-E blew up the borg sphere the wreckage of which was scattered in antartica, hence the humans finding that wreckage on earth in Enterprises time, its perfectly feasible that the federation covered up whatever research and logs archer recorded for fear of an earthwide or even federation wide panic, hence the events in q-who where no one knew the borg existed, convoluted but still feasible none the less

I also think that season 3 and 4 were some of the best sci-fi on television at that time, and if manny coto had been allowed to develop season 5 as he wanted it to be, then we could have been in for something really special

As for scott bakula, i agree his style of acting didnt really suit the role of captain, but when he was called upon to do anything that was in chracter for a captain then he pulled through admirably

Shin

lostexpectation

yeah I mean the more recent star trek always had the, we don't do that sorta bad stuff anymore line, and I guess they dealt with nastiness of humans with the Doc getting beat etc after the attack, they do show all ranks on the ship but their all bridge officers what about the rest of the crew, but how did they get rid of the class system?

Justice

ya bizmark,

that warp 10 episode was crap for many reasons, among which is the warp 10 everywhere at once shoite.

its not like ST had never gone faster than warp 9.999999, re traveler and other episodes.

in enterprise i liked t'pol and trip. doctor was funney, some classic humour from him. but others werent the best, tho i did like reed, but again underdeveloped.

bizmark, i take it DS9 is your prefered series, to meh you appear to appreciate the more edgier stuff, more thru the looking glass at how life is conducted in the 24th centry, less ideolgical stuff about how wonderfull humanity is without actually seeing how wonderful it is? or am i way off?

those would be interesting starting points for a discussion on what (if ever) the new tv series would be like. i dunno if a ship "boldly going where none has gone b4" is what we'll get.

GrumPy

I liked the theme tune And season three was deadly, everything else was meh. Voyager is my favorite trek, never got into DS9.

Kojak

Irish GrumPy wrote:

Voyager is my favorite trek, never got into DS9.

:eek: :eek:

muckwarrior

Irish GrumPy wrote:

I liked the theme tune And season three was deadly, everything else was meh.

Yeah, just finished season 3 and must say I really enjoyed it. It had a couple of those "deja-vu" episodes (like the insectoid hatchery) but overall I thought it was up there with the best of any other ST series.

I think the characters also developed a lot in this season and tom me are a lot more likable now.

Johnny Storm

Sorry fellas, speaking as someone who has seen every ep of Trek ever, starting in 1968, IMHO the sad fact is that 90% of Voyager and 99.5% of Enterprise was total ****e. To put it in context only about 60% of TNG eps were ****e and about 5% were awesomely great. (Similar ratio for TOS)

Jack B. Badd

Johnny Storm wrote:

speaking as someone who has seen every ep of Trek ever, starting in 1968

I bow before you, oh great one!

Johnny Storm

Jack B. Badd wrote:

I bow before you, oh great one!

Now we're gettin' somewhere!

mcgarnicle

Johnny Storm wrote:

Sorry fellas, speaking as someone who has seen every ep of Trek ever, starting in 1968, IMHO the sad fact is that 90% of Voyager and 99.5% of Enterprise was total ****e. To put it in context only about 60% of TNG eps were ****e and about 5% were awesomely great. (Similar ratio for TOS)

That's funny cos by my calculations 100% of TOS episodes were total ****e. I actually thought Enterprise was decent, especially the fourth season. The third was pretty rubbish, massive, spherical planet killing weapon... give me a break, they may as well have painted death star across the thing. It was so corny and simplistic, the "parallels" to the real world were so see through and unconvincing that I genuinely cringed on a regular basis. Season 4 was excellent though, a real shame that Berman and Braga had well and truly poisened that show and its reputation by then.

Johnny Storm

mcgarnicle wrote:

.....100% of TOS episodes were total ****e.....

Hmmm. Well, that would explain how Star Trek came to be a global phenomenon that has lasted 40 years. :rolleyes:

toomevara

The problem with Enterprise is that TV sci-fi and its audience have become far more sophisticated, discerning and demanding. When you look at the unalloyed excellence of say BG or Firefly and then you plonk yourself before yet another highly derivative, lazy ,sloppily characterised hackneyed, Enterprise episode it's hard not to despair. It lives off past glories and the Star Trek name.

DS9, for me, paradoxically, after a very shaky beginning became the best thing since Next Gen, even eclipsing it at times particularly during the Dominion Wars story line. It was actually, Shock! Horror! gritty and realistic in parts, not the usual sachharine sweet plot resolutions, to the point that it almost, at times threatened to leave the Trek universe and transfer inter-dimensionally to the fabulous Babylon 5.

As for Archer, the guy is actually a thinly veiled cipher for Gerorge Dubya Bush, i.e a big, hopeless, idiotic shank of all american beef whose ignorance of the universe he traverses is matched only by his inablity to deal with 'revelations' that the universe is *boo-hoo* a violent, wicked place full of nasty space aliens who want to kill him. God be with the days of kirk and his genius 'fight it or fu*k it' attitude to space exploration....

mcgarnicle

Johnny Storm wrote:

Hmmm. Well, that would explain how Star Trek came to be a global phenomenon that has lasted 40 years. :rolleyes:

Well I would consider myself a pretty avid trek fan and I absolutely hate TOS, so much so that I find it hard to watch an episode. Believe me I wish I did like it, four more seasons of trek to enjoy would be great, but they just don't do it for me and most of my friends that love trek feel the same way. I certainly would not credit TOS for the 40 years of trek, the films are totally different to TOS and it was TNG that really got the ball rolling, leading to constant trek for well over a decade. Are you implying that it was repeats of TOS that kept the franchise so popular over the past 40 yrs?

bizmark

mcgarnicle wrote:

Well I would consider myself a pretty avid trek fan and I absolutely hate TOS, so much so that I find it hard to watch an episode. Believe me I wish I did like it, four more seasons of trek to enjoy would be great, but they just don't do it for me and most of my friends that love trek feel the same way. I certainly would not credit TOS for the 40 years of trek, the films are totally different to TOS and it was TNG that really got the ball rolling, leading to constant trek for well over a decade. Are you implying that it was repeats of TOS that kept the franchise so popular over the past 40 yrs?

I find cardboard sets crap starship models dodgy acting and technology that’s laughable for today make's it very hard to suspend disbelief while watching tos .....I mean id watch it but im not bothered if i miss an episode like i would if i missed deep space nine or tng even today years after they where new.

mcgarnicle

toomevara wrote:

The problem with Enterprise is that TV sci-fi and its audience have become far more sophisticated, discerning and demanding. When you look at the unalloyed excellence of say BG or Firefly and then you plonk yourself before yet another highly derivative, lazy ,sloppily characterised hackneyed, Enterprise episode it's hard not to despair. It lives off past glories and the Star Trek name.

DS9, for me, paradoxically, after a very shaky beginning became the best thing since Next Gen, even eclipsing it at times particularly during the Dominion Wars story line. It was actually, Shock! Horror! gritty and realistic in parts, not the usual sachharine sweet plot resolutions, to the point that it almost, at times threatened to leave the Trek universe and transfer inter-dimensionally to the fabulous Babylon 5.

As for Archer, the guy is actually a thinly veiled cipher for Gerorge Dubya Bush, i.e a big, hopeless, idiotic shank of all american beef whose ignorance of the universe he traverses is matched only by his inablity to deal with 'revelations' that the universe is *boo-hoo* a violent, wicked place full of nasty space aliens who want to kill him. God be with the days of kirk and his genius 'fight it or fu*k it' attitude to space exploration....

I really hate this attitude that BSG is somehow more sophisticated than trek. A show that's claim to sophistication is its willingness to show death and destruction, yes very sophisticated. I really love those Arnold Schwarzeneger movies, very "sophisticated". How can you possibly say that BSG is more sophisticated than trek, a franchise that over the years has dealt with many philosophical and moral issues in extremely engaging ways. But i guess it doesnt show ships blowing up and their pilots fly out of the cock pit, or feature made up curse words and cliched military types living "on the edge". Enterprise is certainly not the crowning glory of trek, but i blame that on Berman and Braga who were trying to force it onto new demographics, I think season 4 shows what enterprise could have been and watching them re-run on sky at the moment I can honestly say it is some of the best trek I have ever watched.
BSG is aimed squarely at American teenagers, you can throw out all the buzz-words in the world to describe trek but they could just as easily be applied to BSG... honestly derivative? you do realise there was a previous series of BSG that went along pretty much the same lines, even though i guess it didn't have quite the same "sophistication" ie. cursing and killing.

bizmark

toomevara wrote:

The problem with Enterprise is that TV sci-fi and its audience have become far more sophisticated, discerning and demanding. When you look at the unalloyed excellence of say BG or Firefly and then you plonk yourself before yet another highly derivative, lazy ,sloppily characterised hackneyed, Enterprise episode it's hard not to despair. It lives off past glories and the Star Trek name.

Seen a few bsg eps lately its awful i sweared i wouldnt watch it due to them replaceing the male leads with women as it smacked of pc and would look stupid ......i was right and honestly what the hell is sophisticated about it? its nothing but a depressing action tv show set in space.

Johnny Storm

I suppose what I'm saying is that if you would have watched TOS 40 years ago in the context of other SF TV shows that were then current (Lost in Space, Invaders, Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea etc ) then it would be (IMHO) unarguably clear to you that TOS was an exceptionally innovative show with (believe it or not) very high production qualities and adult story lines.

OTOH Enterprise considered in its context is at best mediocre.

EDIT: Here's an interesting Wikipedia link.

toomevara

mcgarnicle wrote:

I really hate this attitude that BSG is somehow more sophisticated than trek. A show that's claim to sophistication is its willingness to show death and destruction, yes very sophisticated. I really love those Arnold Schwarzeneger movies, very "sophisticated". How can you possibly say that BSG is more sophisticated than trek, a franchise that over the years has dealt with many philosophical and moral issues in extremely engaging ways. But i guess it doesnt show ships blowing up and their pilots fly out of the cock pit, or feature made up curse words and cliched military types living "on the edge". Enterprise is certainly not the crowning glory of trek, but i blame that on Berman and Braga who were trying to force it onto new demographics, I think season 4 shows what enterprise could have been and watching them re-run on sky at the moment I can honestly say it is some of the best trek I have ever watched.
BSG is aimed squarely at American teenagers, you can throw out all the buzz-words in the world to describe trek but they could just as easily be applied to BSG... honestly derivative? you do realise there was a previous series of BSG that went along pretty much the same lines, even though i guess it didn't have quite the same "sophistication" ie. cursing and killing.

Lots there Mcgarnicle and alot I'd agree with. I wasnt referring to Trek in general, merely Enterprise, and trying to account for its unpopularity even among die-hards. I'm following the series again on Sky myself and i'm enjoying the Xindi stuff and the opening episodes of season 4. No doubt they upped their game a little here. There are also some excellent characaters for the Trek pantheon. Phlox is fantasticly written and so is T'pol

But when I talk about sophistication, I'm not employing it as metaphor for violence. That isn't my concept of sophistication or yardstick for judging it. BG's characters and storylines are, for me, in the main (and yep your right there have been some dogs! no argument)much more believable and fleshed out, much more 'real world' than their Enterprise equivalent (again i'm talking about enterprise, not Trek in the main). just as an example think of Adama and the complexity of the character as played by olmos, absolutely genius and the byzantine political machinations, personal tribulations and the ambiguous grey areas that he's forced to operate in. Nothing in Enterprise comes close (although at times DS9's Sisko did)

I do agree with you that Enterprise was hamstrung from the start by a populist attempt to broaden its appeal. Having said all that I still watch the thing! But given the choice, i'd plump for BG every time. Oh and I'm about as far from the alleged target demographic of an american teen as its possible to get.

triple h

first of all i agree with everything Kaiser2000 said (on the first page)
muckwarrior- wrong answer. deep space 9 was the best star trek, laguna is right.
this is my top 5 of star treks (and what i would rate out of 10)
----1---deep space 9

---

10/10----(only 2 episodes i hate)
----2---the next generation---7/10
----3---kirk and his gang

---

5/10
----4---enterprise

---

5/10--(i loved season 3)
----5---voyager

---

2/10--started off great but got worse and worse and worse-- i did not even watch the last season.

enterprise was ok. i tried to watch it a few years ago and could not find the time to watch it, now thanks to sky+ i am recording it these days and am watching season 4 for the first time ever. i found myself looking foward to coming home to watch season 3, but not so in season 4.

FutureGuy

Season 1 of Enterprise was good, 2 was rubbish, 3 was awesome, and 4 was excellent. When Many Coto came on board I was really excited to see Enterprise becoming a real prequel show to TOS. Guess we'll never know now lol.

You could go and play the Star Trek card game and make up your own episodes as you go along. Harvesting 7 of 9s *expletively deleteds* to score the final ten points for the win...priceless . We have been making up so many ways for Wesley Creusher to die during a game, it has become an art form! Too bad he's such a good card!

Justice

toomevara wrote:

As for Archer, the guy is actually a thinly veiled cipher for Gerorge Dubya Bush, i.e a big, hopeless, idiotic shank of all american beef whose ignorance of the universe he traverses is matched only by his inablity to deal with 'revelations' that the universe is *boo-hoo* a violent, wicked place full of nasty space aliens who want to kill him. God be with the days of kirk and his genius 'fight it or fu*k it' attitude to space exploration....

personally i almost resent that. he did his job brilliantly, and that was to convey the imprssion that humanity hadnt a fecking clue (as the vulcans said).
im no big fan of TOS, but to my limited knowledge it was the trinity of spock kirk and mcCoy who gave TOS the enduring appeal that it still enjoys. not kirk alone. i would accept that your point does have some relevance to season 3 of ENT. but not to the other seasons.

also all the series of Trek took time to find their grove, season 1 of TNG just aint great, season 2 aint the best either but theres a marked improvement.

DS9 didnt really get its grove till season 3 and the brining in of worf.

voy probably started off best (in that its early seasons werent much worse than the later ones) but then i know its also not appreciated either.

as has been stated before ive yet to see any SF other than trek that even attempts to grapple important social, moral and phisophical issues that trek does time and time again. personally i think there are too many people who view ST thru a distorted memory lens. All star trek has quality, and crap as well, but the quality is so far ahead of the competiton that i dont think need be argued.

toomevara wrote:

fabulous Babylon 5

i think fandom has cast its vote. when was the last babylon 5 convention?

im not trying to dis your favourite programs, all im trying to do make you realise that cause u thinks its A1 or shoite it matters not, the majority of peeps dont agree with you (and if you still think your right, look in the mirror (not darkley tho) before you call anyone a GW Bush clone)

enterprise was not well recieved, but hell its much better recvieved nowadays than when it first came out (i liked it the too). its quality SF, and it will win the fans over when they give it a chance IMO.

egon spengler

I saw an episode of BG and thought it was crap. The camera style annoyed the hell out of me and while I found the seriousness of it cool initially, I soon became agitated at the fact that the characters always seemed intense and brooding, it just seemed silly to have (what seemed to me) an enforced 1 dimensional depressing atmosphere, it was spelt out in big capital letters "this show is trying to be sophisticated by being really obviously serious and depressing in a simplistic way). Now TNG was really dark at times but it was done much more subtly- the episode after The Best of Both Worlds for example. I havent seen any sci fi series hold a stick up to TNG. It has dealt with serious issues best imo,the over arching theme of humanity on trial and its resolution in the series finale, it touched on really deep philosophical issues which are really significant but not in a hamfisted obvious way, there was colour and variety to it.

Anyway, given the universe in which its set and the visual style (ie no silly documentary style camera work in a fiction series) I prefer Enterprise to BG. The character development wasnt great but I enjoy the series. In fact I enjoy it more these days than Voyager which was just tired with 7 of 9 being really irritating. T'pol was much much cooler. Enterprise isnt the best and it committed some grave errors but its an entertaining and pretty decent sci fi show imo.