Should the border be properly signposted?

murphaph · 02-09-2005 9:46pm #1

Like in the rest of the EU, 12 stars and the country names within? There are real reasons for this. If a person is banned from entering the UK for example, but can legally be in Ireland, how are they supposed to know they are venturing into the UK without proper demarcation of the border as we see throughout the rest of Europe? Sure, we have the free travel area, but if you get on a plane bound for either country from the other whilst knowlingly being banned from that country there can be no complaints when arrested. If a border isn't marked-how can someone know they are comiting an offence?

I wonder, is there any EU money going into the new cross border dual carriageway and if so, will the EU insist on correct EU signage therein?

mike65 · 02-09-2005 9:53pm

It seems reasonable that an international border be marked as such. It avoids confusion.

Mike.

simu · 02-09-2005 9:54pm

Well, are there not "Welcome to County X" signs up there? They'd do the job imo.

(Although on my one trip to N.I. the only indicator the bus had left the Republic was the sight of an armed gunman at the side of the road afair).

Gurgle · 02-09-2005 10:03pm

simu wrote:

Well, are there not "Welcome to County X" signs up there?

Half the time the only sign is white markings for the hard shoulder / edge of road instead of yellow.

murphaph · 02-09-2005 10:09pm

simu wrote:

Well, are there not "Welcome to County X" signs up there?

Not always. For example, crossing at the N1/A1 spot, there's a sign which says "welcome to Newry & Mourne". That's a local authority area. Who the hell would know that? It's not written on any tourist maps! NI doesn't use county boundaries for administration anymore. They're only used by the GAA for all intents and purposes!

dlofnep · 02-09-2005 11:17pm

Get rid of the border, problem solved.

rsynnott · 03-09-2005 12:30am

dlofnep wrote:

Get rid of the border, problem solved.

That's rather live using a nuclear weapon to solve a rat infestation.

djmarkus · 03-09-2005 12:45am

that would be a pretty big task. the amount of roads that cross the border, secondary roads that is that you wouldn't notice you've crossed the border just wouldnt be feesable. primary roads yes, but on the ground there isn't much difference between the republic and northern ireland TBH, except when u notice the unionist and republican bunting!

Nuttzz · 03-09-2005 7:46am

as soon as the fence goes up the border will be pretty obvious

Hobbes · 03-09-2005 1:41pm

Doesn't need to be signposted.. when you see the crappy roads your in Ireland.

murphaph · 03-09-2005 1:56pm

Hobbes wrote:

Doesn't need to be signposted.. when you see the crappy roads your in Ireland.

Certainly used to be true across the board, but not so clear cut anymore. The N3 is a fine road until the border where it becomes the A509, and a not so fine road. The point about the border being difficult to signpost properly owing to the number of crossings is valid. Ireland has far more miles of road per capita than Britain and even more than much of continental europe. This is one of those legacies of small holdings remaining in family hands for generations and not consolidating land and eliminating these roads. We can't do that now because we allowed people to build along them and now they must be maintained :mad:

Still though, two small 12 star signs with UK/Ireland on it at every crossing would amount to little. But the problem would be vandalism. Mindless thugs would likely deface them or destroy them. That's probably the biggest stumbling block to correct signage at the border.

Folks driving on provisional licences need to know where the border is too. They can't legally drive beyond it!!

dlofnep · 03-09-2005 2:00pm

rsynnott wrote:

That's rather live using a nuclear weapon to solve a rat infestation.

The rats shouldn't be there in the first place. Whatever means.

Goodshape · 03-09-2005 2:02pm

Simply unnecessary.. steps in the wrong direction imho.

rsynnott · 03-09-2005 2:27pm

dlofnep wrote:

The rats shouldn't be there in the first place. Whatever means.

What?

I was refering to making a huge, destructive move (atom bomb/reunification) to solve a small problem(rats/poor deliniation of border).

AndyWarhol · 03-09-2005 2:55pm

Goodshape wrote:

Simply unnecessary.. steps in the wrong direction imho.

Yes, I agree. To start on a painting/signposting/fencing campaign to clearly distinguish North from South would be an irresponsible move by either government.

I say leave the border alone; the construction of the M1 motorway has been great for north-south relations as has the introduction of the Enterprise train service a few years ago amongst other things.

The status-quo as it exists works just fine, let's leave it lie for another while; there's no need to do anything.

dlofnep · 03-09-2005 3:22pm

rsynnott wrote:

What?

I was refering to making a huge, destructive move (atom bomb/reunification) to solve a small problem(rats/poor deliniation of border).

You don't say?

murphaph · 03-09-2005 4:11pm

Well the Garda NIB are cracking down on illegal immigration from NI, so it seems only fair that these illegals are fairly warned they are about to cross an international boundary (about to break the law). Seems like AGS aren't too worried about highlighting the simple fact that 2 sovereign states occupy this island-hence returning these individuals to the north into the custody of the PSNI. Time to grow up when talking about NI and just accept that it's there, it's part of a different country and everywhere else in europe they clearly signpost their border crossing so there can be no confusion. Remember, certain items such as fireworks are illegal to posess in the south-I could claim I was unaware I was even in the south having bought my stash on the A1 outside Newry!!!

murphaph · 03-09-2005 4:13pm

AndyWarhol wrote:

Yes, I agree. To start on a painting/signposting/fencing campaign to clearly distinguish North from South would be an irresponsible move by either government.

Don't exaggerate. It's a small sign at each crossing. Standard 12 European stars encircling country name. No painting, and certainly no fencing!

Thomond Pk · 03-09-2005 4:24pm

murphaph wrote:

Don't exaggerate. It's a small sign at each crossing. Standard 12 European stars encircling country name. No painting, and certainly no fencing!

It will have to be replaced given that there are now 25 stars required.

rsynnott · 03-09-2005 4:29pm

Thomond Pk wrote:

It will have to be replaced given that there are now 25 stars required.

Pre-enlargement Europe consisted of 15 states to 12 stars. They haven't been kept in sync for a while.

murphaph · 03-09-2005 5:10pm

Thomond Pk wrote:

It will have to be replaced given that there are now 25 stars required.

On the contrary. From Wiki

The number of stars on the flag is fixed at 12 and is not related to the number of member states of EU

Milo · 05-09-2005 6:48am

Crossed the "border" on saturday...you can tell because there's a big sign saying speed limits in mph! Problem solved!

djmarkus · 05-09-2005 6:50am

and as far as i can remember the lines at the side of the road are yellow instead of white

murphaph · 05-09-2005 8:22am

People, we're all inhabitants (mostly born) of this island. We can spot the subtleties when they are present. I'm not asking "can you spot the border?". It should be clearly identifiable to anyone who needs to know it's there. Provisional licence holders are one group I've already mentioned.

A Dub in Glasgo · 05-09-2005 9:50am

What is the problem with Provisional drivers in the border area?

egan007 · 05-09-2005 9:54am

Signs would just be another sign of division i can't see how they could be of any benefit.

jubbly · 05-09-2005 12:25pm

YES it should. Proper policing of it too is needed.

zuma · 06-09-2005 1:32am

When entering NI from Ireland you should see a couple of EU flags with UK in it and vice versa when leaving NI.

Simple.

If its done all over the rest of the EU then why not here?

As said before fireworks and provisional driver licences are 2 reasons why the border should be clearly marked out.

Its not like border checkpoints will appear overnight and check for your passport or anything...just something simple to let you know where you are is needed!

djmarkus · 06-09-2005 1:54am

for main roads only?

murphaph · 06-09-2005 4:57pm

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

What is the problem with Provisional drivers in the border area?

Provisional licences are only valid within the durisdiction of the issuing country and not outside it. Effectively, driving in the UK with an irish provisional is driving without a licence and vice versa.

@djmarkus, it should ideally be at every road, but large signs should be posted at the main roads where higher speeds require it for safety. It's a rop in the ocean compared to the tens of thousands of speed limit signs we just put up!

A Dub in Glasgo · 06-09-2005 6:56pm

murphaph wrote:

Provisional licences are only valid within the durisdiction of the issuing country and not outside it. Effectively, driving in the UK with an irish provisional is driving without a licence and vice versa.

Valid reason but how many geography deficient provisional drivers are there that will be driving on the border edge. I am pretty sure the full licence driver that travels with them will be careful that they do not enter the UK/RoI.

murphaph · 06-09-2005 7:43pm

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Valid reason

Amongst a few others!

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

but how many geography deficient provisional drivers are there that will be driving on the border edge.

Irrelevant. I'm pretty damn good at locational geography. I know exactly where the border is on a pre-partition political map of the island of Ireland, but that's not much use on the ground. Trying to work it out using landmarks is not how citizens on continental Europe do it. They simply put up a sign.

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

I am pretty sure the full licence driver that travels with them will be careful that they do not enter the UK/RoI.

See above-they have no official way of knowing where the border is and will be relying on landmarks and road features too. Ridiculous in this day and age. This, when there's the simple system used Europe wide-correct signage.

Nuttzz · 07-09-2005 8:44am

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

I am pretty sure the full licence driver that travels with them will be careful that they do not enter the UK/RoI.

except where they are on the 2nd provisional licence and dont need a full licenced driver...

A Dub in Glasgo · 07-09-2005 9:04am

Oh yeah, I forgot the RoI allow unlicenced drivers to drive without a driver with a licence. Seems that loophole should be closed but that is another story.

zuma · 07-09-2005 4:30pm

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Oh yeah, I forgot the RoI allow unlicenced drivers to drive without a driver with a licence. Seems that loophole should be closed but that is another story.

Actually your wrong on that point!
That loophole was closed a couple of years ago.

Nuttzz · 07-09-2005 9:22pm

zuma wrote:

Actually your wrong on that point!
That loophole was closed a couple of years ago.

no he isnt, 2nd provisional licence holders not need to be accompanied

zuma · 07-09-2005 9:41pm

Nuttzz wrote:

no he isnt, 2nd provisional licence holders not need to be accompanied

And what about first provisional licence holders????

Nuttzz · 08-09-2005 12:38pm

Only 2nd provisional drivers are allowed 1st, 3rd and subsequent arent, this is how its been for a long time

sceptre · 08-09-2005 7:24pm

You do know this ain't the Motors forum, yeah? Nuttzz is correct, anyone got anything to add on the main topic then?

08-09-2005 8:04pm

I feel your pain Sceptre.
Having looked at this thread in total the vast amount of it is a discussion on roads,the quality of roads,sign posting,drivers licences and the rules of the road north vs south.

mike 65 she's all yours

moved to motors

murphaph · 08-09-2005 8:27pm

The thread went OT, but Politics was the most appropriate place to start it. Motors isn't right, if it isn't politics it's commuting/transport, but not motors.

mike65 · 08-09-2005 9:11pm

Earthman wrote:

I feel your pain Sceptre.
Having looked at this thread in total the vast amount of it is a discussion on roads,the quality of roads,sign posting,drivers licences and the rules of the road north vs south.

mike 65 she's all yours

moved to motors

For fups sake Con!

I do not take Politics cast offs! No, I like to run up my own threads thankyou.

Moved to Commuting/Transport.

Mike.

jlang · 08-09-2005 11:05pm

Can't see it fitting in Commuting either. Why not auction the thread off to any moderator who'll put up with it.

Civilian_Target · 08-09-2005 11:15pm

What about drivers entering Ireland? Shouldn't we have a bit starry sign with IRELAND written in it?

DubTony · 09-09-2005 8:21am

jlang wrote:

Can't see it fitting in Commuting either. Why not auction the thread off to any moderator who'll put up with it.

LMAO .

... by the way, as it came up and wan't commented on.
Fireworks ... Illegal ... !?!?!?

And what about that road across the top of Monaghan, I think it's the N53. Doesn't that cross the border and come back over again? I've only driven it twice, but was very surprised when the road signage changed and the phone numbers on the buildings were "foreign".
Need extra signs on that one.

Welcome to the U.K.
Welcome to the Republic of Ireland
Welcome to the U.K.
Welcome to the Republic of Ireland
Welcome to the U.K.
Welcome to the Republic of Ireland

"Ah Hans, I zink we are in ze zwilight zone"
"No Helga, iz ok. Iz jus ze silly Britishers and ze silly Irishers can't build ze straight road like our glorious autobahnen"

murphaph · 09-09-2005 11:11am

Civilian_Target wrote:

What about drivers entering Ireland? Shouldn't we have a bit starry sign with IRELAND written in it?

Yup. At the airports, ferryports and at the border.

JackieChan · 09-09-2005 11:14am

Just look out for the 'Money Exchanged' shops. Then you know your at the border

Victor · 09-09-2005 12:33pm

DubTony wrote:

"Ah Hans, I zink we are in ze zwilight zone"
"No Helga, iz ok. Iz jus ze silly Britishers and ze silly Irishers can't build ze straight road like our glorious autobahnen"

The road is straight enough, the problem is the windey border.

dowlingm · 09-09-2005 3:59pm

zuma wrote:

When entering NI from Ireland you should see a couple of EU flags with UK in it and vice versa when leaving NI.[\quote]

those UK signs wouldn't last long on the SArmagh\N Louth border unless there was a permanent checkpoint!

Victor · 09-09-2005 7:43pm

dowlingm wrote:

those UK signs wouldn't last long on the SArmagh\N Louth border unless there was a permanent checkpoint!

Actually it would be an interesting point to put to republicans and see if an arrangement could be reached where the signs could be put up and maintained in some sort of neutral way. Not necessarily "Welcome to Ulster" (on the Louth and Leitrim ones), but one could at least get brain cogs turning.

spacetweek · 10-09-2005 10:40pm

dowlingm wrote:

those UK signs wouldn't last long on the SArmagh\N Louth border unless there was a permanent checkpoint!

I think you're all overreacting, in this day and age would the signs really be vandalised? We're talking about an international border here people - stop living the dream of a united Ireland, it ain't gonna happen.

It is imperative that signs are put up on all NATIONAL roads crossing the border - I counted 5 on Google Maps. We're talking about 5 road signs here! Earlier this year we put up about 50,000 or something for the speed limit changeover. Sheesh.

Should the border be properly signposted?

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