Theoretical Physics or Mathematics??

davidtaylor

Hi, i'm just starting 6th year in the institute, and positive that i'm goin to trinity (cos i'm not doing another language other than irish) and i am definitley sure that i'm goin for one of these courses. I'm just wondering wheather there is much of a difference between the courses? Can you become a theoretical physicist if you do the mathematics course?

Thanks.

oq4v3ht0u76kf2

Mate of mine who will not doubt post soon (SéamusK) did TP for the last year but decided it wasn't for him so he transferred into Maths and is staring as an SF in a few weeks. Not sure about switching from maths to TP but I'd assume it wouldn't be too hard as long as you have the aptitude for mathematics.

As a further aside, a C3 in pass Irish is VERY attainable* and it would give you a lot more options should you want them. Although my entire CAO form was Trinity courses so there isn't really a need for options.

*I got a D in JC pass Irish, never had an interest in the subject and never tried at it. I did the pass oral but then just decided fsck this I'm doing foundation. On the day of the exam my school secretary told me I had to do pass because I had done the pass oral - I still don't believe her but regardless, I did the exam and ended up with a C2. Now I truly have NEVER tried at Irish because I've never liked it but I studied the night after paper 1 and came out with the C2 so it's worth thinking about.

defiantshrimp

You can switch from TP to the Maths degree but not the other way around because you will not have covered the experimental physics part of TP at all. I'm nearly sure you can also switch from TP to experimental physics (as part of the science degree). Basically if you like both experimental physics and the math side to physics, do TP. If you really prefer the math and theoretical aspects of it all and are not so interested in the experimental side of things, do maths. If you have a big interest in things like probability and statistics you might be better off doing maths. On a word of caution TP has quite a heavy course load since you are doing most the maths course load and also all the physics part of science initially.

As regards becoming a theoretical physicist doing a maths degree, I don't see why not but if you want to become a physicist I'd imagine TP or physics would be better.

SéamusK

Well as Bob said it wasn't going to take long before i was going to post here. If you're trying to decide between the two then you really need to know whether your interests lie in applied mathematics or pure mathematics. Not really the easiest thing to do when you're in secondary school as you don't really get much access to pure mathematics as such.

It wouldn't be a bad idea to get in touh with the maths dept. in the college, you could probably arrange to come in for a day at some point to see what the first year course for maths and tp is like. At least one person came in and attended lectures for the day last year.

Essentially you can become a theoretical physicist through mathematics, by specialising in the physics courses offered by the maths dept, but you will miss out on a lot of physics that way. You'd be much better off doing tp if you want to become a theoretical physicist.

The courses share a lot of common maths courses especially in first year, and to a slightly lesser extent second year. As you go on you get more chjoice especially in mathematics, and how similar the two course are then depends on the choices you make.

Getting in touch with the maths dept should ensure that you get any helpful information. And the maths dept website should also have a lot of information. PM me if you want to know anything more about either courses and I'll see what i can do. Also couldn't hurt to go to some of the events happening in trinity for the upcoming BA Festival of Science. you should definitely meet some tp and maths students there.

Nietzschean

Roite,

Few things clear, unless u have the aptitude to do pure maths don't even bother considering TP. as regards maths TP has arguebly all the harder modules for first and second year anyway. 3rd and 4th year is a bit hazier complexity wise. Then of course for TP u have labs and so on and all that physics stuff(the labs did me in, way too boring for my liking)


If you have the points for both pick TP, no doubt, you will get a feel for what maths is like anyway (you do 5/6 of the maths subjects in first year, all except stats, which u can do in second year anyway, i did...)

And despite whats said above you can't becmoe a theoretical physist through mathemathics, its a maths course, you don't do the physics. Its quite simple really Everything in maths in 3rd and 4th year is maths orientated, except for topics in theoretical physics ye really couldn't call em physics courses. You could do further studies in the physics area, i.e. do a post grad in physics or whatever, but you really would be at a massive loss in the physics arena and would end up having to start somewhere back around square one.

The 2 courses arn't really similar at all, in first year TP's cover most maths, but it really doesn't work the otherway aswell, although very little new physics is done in 1st year(to account for natural sci people who have never done physics before).

TP's always take modules from maths, and after 2nd year you can still move to maths, but your options become more limited as to the maths courses you can take because you haven't done the precursers.


And emmm don't bother going into one of the courses for a day, you need to spend a few months to get a grasp of it, i'm afraid there is nothing u can do but just kinda pick one and hope it works out. If you are very determined you can do what Sev did and get some of the books that the courses done in first year are based on, iirc he got one of the abstract algebra books.

Most information on a course like this is going to be kind of useless, only way to know is to pick up a book and have a read of it all, its nothing like the maths you have ever done before so there is nothing i can really tell you for you to compare it to.


Maths is certainly the broader of the 2 subjects leaving you with the ability to stick very far to certain sections if you wish in 3rd/4th year like computers/statistics/mechanics or pure mathemathics. But I'd stick by my view that you should start in TP if you have the points, you can experence both courses then, and with the classes so small you won't miss out on meeting the maths class anyway if u do swap.


Just FYI since yer all new n stuff, me would be heading into 4th year maths, did first year TP and swapped.


The best source of info on TP around here would be Sev, as he has 2 years done on it, none of the other TP's are too active in posting this time of year that have been on ere(mostly in the US)

article6

I would disagree. If you are not adamant about wanting to study physics, I would choose Maths. The TP course requires a very large commitment of hours, both lecture time (about 25+ a week?) and study after hours. From what I gather, you need to be truly devoted to both physics and maths to thrive in this course.

More generally, both last year's JF Mathsies such as myself and TP types have been quite active in the wider college world (i.e. Real Life). Even making inroads into debating and Union hackery. Whichever course you choose, you won't be isolated from the rest of college if you can keep a balance between course and non-course activites.

Of course I've only done one year of TSM Maths, so I know nothing about TP really.

Nietzschean

article6 wrote:

Of course I've only done one year of TSM Maths, so I know nothing about TP really.

*cough* case in point*cough*

your entitled to your opinion, but my point is from TP you can move to maths at anytime, so saying hours or anything like that is a bit odd....if the work load is too much they can just move sooner...

davidtaylor

Well i am aiming to get an A1 in both maths and physics, so i am fairly determined, plus i enjoy both subjects.

does anyone know what books tp students use, and if so, where could i get them?

4Xcut

i thought you were set on theoretical physics since 3rd year

Nietzschean

davidtaylor wrote:

Well i am aiming to get an A1 in both maths and physics, so i am fairly determined, plus i enjoy both subjects.

does anyone know what books tp students use, and if so, where could i get them?

Hrmmm hoddges figges (sp?) , should have some of them, you can get the recommended texts from the course website on the maths dept...
http://www.maths.tcd.ie/undergraduate/courses/index.php?file=jfmaths

Though if you can find them in a library it would be handier for you. As regards text books TP/Maths ones are more or less the same for first year, the physics people only have one, which they really don't open very often, called University Physics , unless its changed since my day....

The book covers the LC physics course(again, yawn) , but goes further in most topics, o and of course Special Relativity was great in 1st year

ApeXaviour

Serenity wrote:

the physics people only have one, which they really don't open very often, called University Physics , unless its changed since my day....

The book covers the LC physics course(again, yawn) , but goes further in most topics, o and of course Special Relativity was great in 1st year

It's so refreshing to know where you stand on trin physics serenity

He's correct by the way (on the book that is I mean), University physics covers almost all of the 1st year physics course and around 1/2 of the 2nd year material.

PrecariousNuts

Hey Seamus didn't know you read here. This is David L just back from China. Are you going to the festival? It seemed pretty pricey if you aren't a student there so the OP mightn't be able to go to many of them.

Nietzschean

ApeXaviour wrote:

It's so refreshing to know where you stand on trin physics serenity

I'm not sure wheither thats a good or a bad thing...

article6

Serenity wrote:

your entitled to your opinion, but my point is from TP you can move to maths at anytime, so saying hours or anything like that is a bit odd....if the work load is too much they can just move sooner...

Ah, but every wasted hour in JF year is irretrievable, and some people find it hard to switch course once they've already put in time in other subjects. Best to let people be informed about the realities of the course (i.e. it's hard) before they commit.

Nietzschean

article6 wrote:

Ah, but every wasted hour in JF year is irretrievable, and some people find it hard to switch course once they've already put in time in other subjects. Best to let people be informed about the realities of the course (i.e. it's hard) before they commit.

no hours in tp would be wasted, they still do the maths courses, and their is a culture of swap'n out in tp so its never a big deal

article6

Serenity wrote:

no hours in tp would be wasted, they still do the maths courses, and their is a culture of swap'n out in tp so its never a big deal

No TP hours wasted? What, do pure Maths do Physics courses now?

SéamusK

no hours in tp would be wasted

Hmmm a few JF labs spring to mind.

Best to let people be informed about the realities of the course (i.e. it's hard) before they commit.

It seems you're suggesting that TP is harder than maths. The first year workload (i don't know about other years) is greater all right.But if JFTP is too hard for people, well maths will be too hard too. Anyone choosing between maths and TP who makes their basis on either difficulty or workload is probably in the wrong place.
If you're is unsure it's better to go for TP and change at a later stage. Then you have the chance to experience both courses for a year.

Nietzschean

article6 wrote:

No TP hours wasted? What, do pure Maths do Physics courses now?

no they don't but the experence at physics is never a waste of time, and you do get to do special rel which is a proper course later on in maths.......




Also i do agree about those labs, but i guess it gives ye some experence at writing reports.......or something....


and the load in first year is higher in JS TP, but it levels out after that, it all depends on what subjects you do how many hours u need to spend working during the year.....

ApeXaviour

Ah no, having a majority of my classes with TPs. I can quite easily say that half of them (rising SS, some not so rising like meself) are absolutely bang-on. The rest are strange, unquestionably cocky and have tendancies to tuck their vests into their underwear..

Serenity wrote:

Also i do agree about those labs, but i guess it gives ye some experence at writing reports.......or something....

Yeah.. tbh me and serenity differ on our attitude towards labs. He only really had experience with JF labs. Stringently supervised with rulers, pendulums and whatnot. Boring crap tbh. As you go up the years however you get left alone with far more interesting experiments with all sorts of radioactive samples, plasma, magnetic resonance etc. Lot of physics, reading up on research papers and such, lot of challenges. However doing tp I can see why you might feel a little less inclined towards the experimental end of physics. There are two things that labs give you that you cannot deny: a "feel" for the physics. And an ability to write up reports. The latter while sounding trivial is anything but, and is practically beaten into you from the word go. A lab report is merely an undergraduate version of a published research paper. When studying them I was struck by how similar they were to how I was taught to write up. So.. important to say the least.

JackKelly

hmmm.I'm set to be starting TP this year and you've succesfully put the s**** in me. I don't know what to expect now.yarg.

Nietzschean

TimAy wrote:

hmmm.I'm set to be starting TP this year and you've succesfully put the s**** in me. I don't know what to expect now.yarg.

haha, fun

JackKelly

as a matter of interest, any need for a laptop if doing t.p?

fluppet

Hey all, like Seamus and David L (PrecariousNuts) I was in JF (first year) TP last year. (as an 'aside' - I also went to the Institute like you davidtaylor).

I'm not sure how much you know about university level maths, davidtaylor, but it really is very different to the LC. I loved maths and physics for the LC (is it still Roantree or Brown for Maths, and Pat Doyle for Physics?). Maths was so easy - just learn how to do certain kinds of problems, and slight variations of those would come-up on the exam - not much thought required. You also only had a few proofs, which were easy to learn 'off-by-heart' and just put them down on the exam papers. So you really don't need any real aptitude for maths/physics to do well (especially in the Institute). It was, like most if not all LC courses, just testing your memory.

At Third Level, you do have to love maths. I had heard this before I went to university, but I didn't really know whether I loved it or not. One way to know is to ask yourself whether you would think about and do maths problems for fun. The answer really needs to be 'yes' to this if you are going to do well in TP (and maths).

As people have said above, first year physics in Trinity is mostly just LC stuff, so it was pretty easy for TPs (who have to get at least a B in LC Higher Level Physics). It will probably be harder this year, however.

I haven't really answered your question yet, I was just warning you that even if you think you will love the course when you are doing the LC, you might be disappointed.

Now onto your question. Personally, knowing what I know now, if I was in your position I would go for TP. You do have more work, but I think it would be easier to transfer from TP to maths than from maths to TP at the end of first year if you wanted to. You can also do the Statistics course (the only maths course that TPs don't officially do) if you want to. Some TPs do it every year. Then you have done the whole first year maths course, and the physics part as well, so you would have no problem if you decided to just go into maths at the end of first year.

I hope this helps. It is a big decision, and one that really will affect the rest of your life, so make sure you make the right choice.

pseudonym

hmmmmm. goin into JSTP this year. Just a few comments...

It takes practically the first term of JFTP (i found) to get any kind of proper feel for the course, so theres no way you can say "i'll do it for a week r two, see if i like it, and if not, swap to maths/science/bess /whatever" and at first everything is completely different to LC stuff: maths is suddenly abstract, and the first physics course is Special Rel, which again takes time to understand (and even less time to forget, as u realise when ur studyin it in may!!!) and is very different from LC Physics.

However, from Christmas on, the physics courses are kinda rehashes of LC stuff (using vector notation and calculus), and one begins to realise that a lot of the maths courses involve memorising theorems and proofs and sample questions and not too much else (prob. a bad habit, but thats what any1 i knew did...), altho i wud advise attempting the problem sets throughout the year as it does make studying at the end of the year a hell of a lot handier.

As for labs, so far i'v found most of them to be repetitive & often tedious, altho i suppose that the "hands on" experience that it gives is probably worth doing them properly in the long run.

Or so I thought.

article6

TimAy wrote:

as a matter of interest, any need for a laptop if doing t.p?

No need for a laptop. So if you have one spare, I'll gladly take it. Please?


Incidentally, I found the answer to "TP or Maths". It is, of course, "TSM Maths and Economics". There's less hours than either of the single-honour courses (though I seem to be the only mathsie on Boards who dislikes long course hours), and you become very employable afterwards.

Nietzschean

must still be a n00b to college if your worried about employablity..... pretty much every science end course yer employable....it becomes quite hard to finish something ye don't like...and after that to go work in the field if ye don't like it....

Pet

No need for a laptop. So if you have one spare, I'll gladly take it. Please?

I'm in line too. My uncle has this laptop, and I covet it desperately.

JackKelly

feck.there goes my excuse for buying an ibook.

Pet

Pet wrote:

I'm in line too. My uncle has this laptop, and I covet it desperately.

For connecting it to the college network, you'd need XP Pro though...or you could downgrade to Windows 2000.

Nietzschean

TimAy wrote:

feck.there goes my excuse for buying an ibook.

its an ibook...ye don't really need an excuse...

Pet

Myth wrote:

For connecting it to the college network, you'd need XP Pro though...or you could downgrade to Windows 2000.

Meh, there's always upgrade packs..

Nietzschean

er is there an upgrade pack from xp home to pro? i've never heard of one... tho then i've never looked for one either

fluppet

Serenity wrote:

er is there an upgrade pack from xp home to pro? i've never heard of one... tho then i've never looked for one either

I think I might have read something about one on the ISS website for ninety something euros... I could be wrong though - I didn't pay too much attention to it as I have Pro already.

http://www.isservices.tcd.ie/software/mscampus.php#students

Site has to be updated though...

Nietzschean

so it does exist, learn something new every day...

i wonder is it as half arsed as the windows 98 upgrade for windows 95 was...

JackKelly

back to TP questions. Can anyone give me a sample of what the timetable is like for the first year?

PrecariousNuts

TimAy wrote:

back to TP questions. Can anyone give me a sample of what the timetable is like for the first year?

Here's the timetable from hilary term:


Stick in a 3 hour lab on Thursday too.

There's barely any physics lectures in there and I think in the Michelmas term we didn't even have a break for lunch on Monday.

Nietzschean

well michelmas if i remember was the most hetic of the 3 terms, so might be the best example...go fetch off the SIS

JackKelly

shíte.looks like i'm going to be busy.

and btw,loling at the amount of maths lectures. Maybe Exp Physics is more for me. All will be revealed come Oct 10.

ApeXaviour

TimAy wrote:

shíte.looks like i'm going to be busy.

and btw,loling at the amount of maths lectures. Maybe Exp Physics is more for me. All will be revealed come Oct 10.

Exp physics is a full timetable too. You do almost all the same physics as lectures as above, then you gotta do two other subjects. That would be science maths (easyish if you have the aptitude but heavy enough on lectures), and then the usual choices are chemistry or geog/geol. Both which have the same amount of lectures as the physics in TP/NS plus 3 hours extra of labs a week.

Nietzschean

hehe felt left out that the other science kids weren't getting enough credit for their timetables ?

ApeXaviour

I'm just sayin if you want less hours you'll only really find it in an arts subject

(isn't maths an arts course in some colleges, eh? )

Nietzschean

what colleges? argubly its the root science course

ApeXaviour

aye I'll cede that maybe. But it's not a science in itself though is it?

Nietzschean

The word "mathematics" comes from the Greek μάθημα (máthema) meaning "science, knowledge, or learning" and μαθηματικός (mathematikós) meaning "fond of learning". It is often abbreviated maths in Commonwealth English and math in American English.

ApeXaviour

And nazi stands for national socialist party. Sometimes origin and definition differ considerably. Where in this case there may be grey areas.. maths isn't strictly considered a science. And yes we are arguing over semantics:

Is mathematics a science:
http://euclid.trentu.ca/math/sb/misc/mathsci.html
Abstract: Mathematics is not a science, but there are grey areas at the fringes.

article6

ApeXaviour wrote:

And nazi stands for national socialist party. Sometimes origin and definition differ considerably. Where in this case there may be grey areas.. maths isn't strictly considered a science. And yes we are arguing over semantics:

Is mathematics a science:
http://euclid.trentu.ca/math/sb/misc/mathsci.html
Abstract: Mathematics is not a science, but there are grey areas at the fringes.

But the Nazis were nationalist and socialist... oh, never mind. If you want a real contradiction, try the Green Party. Pale Caucasians all of them.

ApeXaviour

article6 wrote:

But the Nazis were nationalist and socialist...

That's a matter for debate, but yeah I see where you're coming from.

oh, never mind. If you want a real contradiction, try the Green Party. Pale Caucasians all of them.

JackKelly

as a matter of interest, what sort of hours is general science. Also, whats SIS?!

SIS = Student Information System. You'll need your password to log into it, which you won't get until freshers' week. It's available (for when you have it) at http://www.tcd.ie/local, then have a looksee at the middle, bottom right of the page. It'll have your timetable information up on it (though has at times been incorrect, such as ignoring one of my subjects last year)

graphene

in first year general science (assuming you do full maths )
there are 6 hours of maths
and 4 hours of lectures + three hours of lab work for each of your other two subjects

so about 20 hours a week + tutorials

its about the same in second year while for 3rd/4th year it really depends on what you specalise in