University status WIT

propercharlie

Just wondered what the general opinion was regarding the possibility of WIT obtaining uni status at some stage and whether it would be deserved?

What needs to be improved and what work need to be done to achieve this?

angry_fox

The whole place needs to improved to be honest.
In one computer room last year they left a bucket to collect water that was leaking through the roof(they sometimes used a bin).
They are not providing proper IT facilities for students, D01 is a digrace, normally they are about 12 to 15 pc broken at any one time (Theres 30 in the room). The roof near the Well Shop collapsed earlier in the summer, and the whole place got flooded.
Theres just so much crap students have to put with. Place shouldint even be called an "Institute of Technology"
They have been carrying out a lot of repairs over the summer but i dont think it will make much of a difference.........

propercharlie

Good points. What about the standard of the courses?

angry_fox

Multimedia Applications was a good course but was really affected by the poor state of the computer rooms, some of the lectures couldn’t even teach classes because equipment kept failing. Can’t believe how much sh*t the lectures but up with, they can’t even do there jobs properly because of the total lack of support from the people in charge. Multimedia students missed out on a lot because we were not provided with the proper facilities and the college didn’t even care. They made so many promises and broke them all; we didn’t even have a DVD RW. Was soul destroying stuff trying to complete projects when nothing was working…

Heres another thread on it

propercharlie

Was there ever any evidence of courses being made easier just to allow people to continue due to a low first year intake? Its just that I've seen evidence of a drop in standards in some of the sciences. Everything and anything is done to facilitate progression, deserved or otherwise.

angry_fox

I dont no to be honest, if you didint meet a deadline you got 25% off your final mark or sometimes you were just given a mark of 40%.

propercharlie

Yeah thats an example of the totally arbitrary decisions made by the lecturers. Make it up as you go along. There is no traceability.

angry_fox

propercharlie wrote:

t I've seen evidence of a drop in standards in some of the sciences.

Which ones and what evidence?

angry_fox

propercharlie wrote:

I've seen evidence of a drop in standards in some of the sciences.

Have you gone to the college authorities about this? What Science courses?

merlante

propercharlie wrote:

Just wondered what the general opinion was regarding the possibility of WIT obtaining uni status at some stage and whether it would be deserved?

What needs to be improved and what work need to be done to achieve this?

Lads, can we clear up one thing, once and for all. People seem to think that you become the best IT you can be and then, if you're good enough, you get upgraded to a university. That is total bollox. The government decides on the basis of population and lobbying whether a region needs a university or not. If they reckon it does, then it gets a university regardless of how good or bad and institutions that are there already are. IT's have nothing to do with universities anyway, never has an IT become a university. Although it is the most likely way that Waterford will get a university.

Also, I don't care what people say about the standards in WIT. I've been around a few universities in my time and I can tell you that all these problems exist everywhere. Printers breaking down, not enough paper, not enough computers. You could be talking about any third level institution in the country. The only difference is that in other institutions people have a little thing called pride, and when they tell other people about their college, they ignore the little things and extoll its good points.

But naturally, because this is Waterford, everybody cribs and whines to people *outside* Waterford on *public* forums. God forbid anyone would get a decent impression of Waterford or WIT.

And this business of "deserving" this that and that other thing really cracks me up about Waterford. Did Galway *deserve* a university in the 19th century; did Maynooth *deserve* a university in the 90's? What does *deserve* have to do with it. You lobby for things as hard as you can, and if the demographics make sense, and your lobbying succeeds, you get them. Nothing is ever deserved or not deserved in this country: things are merely gotten, or not gotten.

Waterford needs a university because it is a city (the only one without a university) and because it is the capital of the third largest region in the country, i.e. the south east. It would have had a university years ago if people weren't so worried about whether they *really* deserved it or not.

Waterford is the laughing stock of the country, we are so naive when it comes to looking for services. Only with the radiotherapy, did Waterford show some teeth.

Marcopolo85

merlante wrote:

Lads, can we clear up one thing, once and for all. People seem to think that you become the best IT you can be and then, if you're good enough, you get upgraded to a university. That is total bollox. The government decides on the basis of population and lobbying whether a region needs a university or not. If they reckon it does, then it gets a university regardless of how good or bad and institutions that are there already are. IT's have nothing to do with universities anyway, never has an IT become a university. Although it is the most likely way that Waterford will get a university.

Also, I don't care what people say about the standards in WIT. I've been around a few universities in my time and I can tell you that all these problems exist everywhere. Printers breaking down, not enough paper, not enough computers. You could be talking about any third level institution in the country. The only difference is that in other institutions people have a little thing called pride, and when they tell other people about their college, they ignore the little things and extoll its good points.

But naturally, because this is Waterford, everybody cribs and whines to people *outside* Waterford on *public* forums. God forbid anyone would get a decent impression of Waterford or WIT.

And this business of "deserving" this that and that other thing really cracks me up about Waterford. Did Galway *deserve* a university in the 19th century; did Maynooth *deserve* a university in the 90's? What does *deserve* have to do with it. You lobby for things as hard as you can, and if the demographics make sense, and your lobbying succeeds, you get them. Nothing is ever deserved or not deserved in this country: things are merely gotten, or not gotten.

Waterford needs a university because it is a city (the only one without a university) and because it is the capital of the third largest region in the country, i.e. the south east. It would have had a university years ago if people weren't so worried about whether they *really* deserved it or not.

Waterford is the laughing stock of the country, we are so naive when it comes to looking for services. Only with the radiotherapy, did Waterford show some teeth.

Well said.

Andf even if we DO get a uni, it will be called the 'South Eastern' university!! Yes you can have DCU, LU, UCG, and UCG. We will be the only one of the five cities without our name in the title. And I wouldn't exactly be jumping for joy on the radiotherapy. It's only a token sop to Waterford (again). FFS we have a Minister For Transport and he can't even organise the bloody motorway. :mad: :mad: :mad:

merlante

Marcopolo85 wrote:

Well said.

Andf even if we DO get a uni, it will be called the 'South Eastern' university!! Yes you can have DCU, LU, UCG, and UCG. We will be the only one of the five cities without our name in the title. And I wouldn't exactly be jumping for joy on the radiotherapy. It's only a token sop to Waterford (again). FFS we have a Minister For Transport and he can't even organise the bloody motorway. :mad: :mad: :mad:

Still, any kind of university would do the trick. We could work out the name afterwards! It does annoy me to see this city reach such straits, though. But 50% of the problem is Waterford people: so canny and streetwise in Waterford, so naive and unconfident outside of it. Always quick to point out a flaw, a weakness or an ugliness in their native city that a visitor or the outsider might have missed.

This is not normal.

propercharlie

Look guys, there are two issues for me at stake. Lobby groups and local politicians, councillors etc calling for a upgrade in status. Fair enough if you want to get something done but these people are blatantly biased.
Also the college authorities are organising themselves in terms of international reports from esteemed academics, public announcements, media friendly director etc. These are cosmetic accumulations that barely scratch the surface of the running of the place. My argument is that it probably is just a matter of time but of the blurb is to have any integrity then things have to change.

merlante

propercharlie wrote:

Look guys, there are two issues for me at stake. Lobby groups and local politicians, councillors etc calling for a upgrade in status. Fair enough if you want to get something done but these people are blatantly biased.
Also the college authorities are organising themselves in terms of international reports from esteemed academics, public announcements, media friendly director etc. These are cosmetic accumulations that barely scratch the surface of the running of the place. My argument is that it probably is just a matter of time but of the blurb is to have any integrity then things have to change.

Fine, if things are not right, let them change. But lets get the university first, and I have no doubt that as the years roll on, people like yourself will affect these changes.

To be honest, the title of "university" is more important in attracting investment, jobs, etc. to the region than the value of the education provided. Having a university in your city is the equivalent of having a little flag put on your location on the map that says: "This is a place of importance, where one can live, work, set up a business, invest in, etc."

Bards

If the facilities are so bad why then is it so popular

Taken from Irish Examiner this morning.

=====================================================
23/08/05
Popularity of Waterford Institute of Technology raises its course points

By Neans McSweeney, South-East Correspondent
MORE students than ever want to study at Waterford Institute of Technology, pushing up the points for its key courses.

There are more than 2,000 first-year places available at Waterford Institute of Technology in the 2005-‘06 academic year across over 20 higher degree and 22 ordinary degree and certificate courses.

Points for most courses are in line with previous years with demand in some areas rising noticeably.

The highest CAO requirements at the institute this year are for the higher degree courses in General Nursing (410 points, up 15 on equivalent figures in 2004), Intellectual Disability Nursing (385, up 60), Electronic Engineering (375, up 20), Psychiatric Nursing (355, same as 2004) and Business Studies with German (355, up five).

Institute director, Professor Kieran R Byrne, said it is great to see so many students making Waterford their number one choice.

“It is encouraging that the Waterford Institute continues to attract Leaving Certificate students and non-traditional applicants of the very highest calibre from our traditional catchment area in the south-east of Ireland and also far beyond. It is clear from the CAO points published today and the demand for places at the institute that our programmes are well positioned to achieve maximum participation, something that is set to continue with the introduction of new courses this year including our new undergraduate degrees in architecture and physics with computing,” he said.

“It is evident from the pattern of first preferences recorded by 2005 CAO applicants that the record and past achievement of this institute are making it a keenly sought destination for thousands of students from throughout the State as well as from Europe, Asia and North America.

“I would urge those students who have received first round offers for courses at the institute to consider their options very carefully between now and August 30 by when their reply must have reached the CAO who will make a second round of offers on September 2.”

Mr Byrne said appeal applications for those dissatisfied with their Leaving Certificate results must be with the State Examinations Commission by September 7, with the outcome available by early October.

propercharlie

This is not a measure of popularity by graduates and undergraduates. People that are applying generally have no idea of facilities. They may have been on an open day visit and given a false impression. Anyway it's not just about facilities.
I see the point of getting the status then other problems take care of themselves but this does not cover up the cracks.

merlante

propercharlie wrote:

This is not a measure of popularity by graduates and undergraduates. People that are applying generally have no idea of facilities. They may have been on an open day visit and given a false impression. Anyway it's not just about facilities.
I see the point of getting the status then other problems take care of themselves but this does not cover up the cracks.

Can you please give me an example of one other third level institution in this country that does not suffer from endemic administrative problems, and the other problems that you are hinting at?

Because if you can't, and if you are judging WIT in a vacuum, then you shouldn't be so insistent that WIT is a disaster.

I came out of college (DCU in my case) with exactly the same view of that college as you have of WIT. I have since spent time in other colleges and I've been in a position to see how colleges work in general. And, as far as I can tell, they're all more or less the same. They don't all have the same problems, but they all have their problems.

In any case, I think you'll find that vast amounts of cash and investment helps for papering over cracks, and even sealing them.

propercharlie

Admin problems are a certainty in all third level organisations. Cracks being hidden is a speciality also. I came through a university and IT system and have familiarity and contacts with many other uni and IT people. I am of the opinion that "some" qualifications in WIT are easier to obtain than in the universities that I have knowledge of. This is my polite way of saying that in some areas (and I cannot of course make a generalisation here) undeserving people are progressing, qualifications are degraded and standards are diluted. WIT does not deserve a uni because of this complete lack of integrity.

merlante

propercharlie wrote:

Admin problems are a certainty in all third level organisations. Cracks being hidden is a speciality also. I came through a university and IT system and have familiarity and contacts with many other uni and IT people. I am of the opinion that "some" qualifications in WIT are easier to obtain than in the universities that I have knowledge of. This is my polite way of saying that in some areas (and I cannot of course make a generalisation here) undeserving people are progressing, qualifications are degraded and standards are diluted. WIT does not deserve a uni because of this complete lack of integrity.

More of this *deserve* rubbish again! WIT may or may not deserve anything, I don't care, but for what it's worth, Waterford and the South East deserve and need a university. Whether that university replaces the WIT or whether it is built on a green field site, is not the point. I expect a university to exist. There's no reason to assume that the resultant university, after the required investment is made, will resemble the WIT of today in any way, in terms of how things operate.

I absolutely don't accept that WIT has a monopoly on giving degrees to people who arguably don't deserve them. Every third level institution in the country is bending the rules to a) Get more students in the door, and b) To get more graduates out the other end. The problem is that there are less students and more courses than there were in the past. College department funding is based on student numbers. College funding & investment is based on graduates numbers. All colleges are feeling the squeeze, and I know for a fact that standards are being compromised everywhere. Or at least compromised by my (and probably your) estimation.

Some colleges, like Trinity, and regional colleges with a captive population, such as UCC, UCG and Limerick, will continue to experience high demand, and that high demand gives these institutes more of a free hand when it comes to maintaining standards, but to be honest, I'd say they're not much better. As for WIT, points for courses are growing steadily year on year because it too has a captive market, which means there is great hope for WIT. If it were to be upgraded to a university tomorrow morning, demand for places with shoot up (people like the title, 'university' on their CVs) and points for all courses would rise by about 20-30. With that kind of demand for places, and therefore selection of students, the WIT will inevitably start to produce a higher class of graduate, plus the staff will be educated to a higher degree than they are at present.

I don't deny that WIT probably has its problems, but I think it is unfair to single out one institute for the sins of them all. In the end, it is the government that is responsible for what is happening.

Anyhow, here is a short article which pretty much sums up what I think about the whole thing, if you're interested:

A ramble about the Knowledge Based Economy and our dodgy 3rd level education system
http://getyourgo.ie/articles/knowledge_1.htm

JCB

merlante wrote:

Waterford and the South East deserve and need a university... I expect a university to exist.

It's quite simple really...
Waterford has always been a safe 2 seats for FF, until that changes there will be no university for waterford...deserve it or not... full stop.

merlante

JCB wrote:

It's quite simple really...
Waterford has always been a safe 2 seats for FF, until that changes there will be no university for waterford...deserve it or not... full stop.

They're not as safe as they used to be. Sinn Fein will be a big threat next time around. And anyway, when you have a cabinet minister in your constituency you have good reason to expect fair play.

In the past I would have had to agree with you, but I think those days are gone now.

dublinguy2004

There are far too many universities in Ireland at the moment; even places like Trinity College and UCD have empty spaces.

The WIT should not be given university status primarily because there is no research worth talking about that is coming out of the institute, the lecturers/academic staff that are appointed are of mediocre standing on an Irish/European level, there is no strategic need for Ireland to have yet another university. I know a lot of PhDs from Trinity/UCD who want to lecture in the ITs not to further their research aims, but so as they can get tenureship in a non-pressurised job that pays €60,000+ for doing nothing.

The country does have a need for qualified people from ITs, why not focus on this and provide excellence in education and training; not everone can be a 1st class graduate and we need plumbers, electricians, builders, office workers, network administrators etc.

Whatever about the points system and intellegence, if there's one thing the points system does tell us, it's the popularity of courses. WIT has no popular courses, i.e. nobody wants to go there! Why? Because it has really low standards. To get university status, all the courses would need to be accredited to their respective professisonal bodies (how many courses in WIT are affiliated?), and would need to be putting out a respectable level of research with the aim of being in the top 500 universities in the world, or higher even. Without these motivations and committment from those in charge (are they capable of this based on their track records?) then it would be a good investment, but really it's never going to happen because it's too risky and monies would be better spent in the more established, red-brick universities where you can trust that they'll produce results.

Budding young Waterfordites should just go to Dublin, Galway or Cork to study. These places have credibility that will stand to you.

Were Waterford to be given a university based on political motivations with no regard to i) the number of university places already available in Ireland, ii) the productivity of existing WIT staff, iiii) the world ranking that Waterford University expected to achieve in say, 5 years then it would be a discrace.

I can see university status being granted for political reasons, all the wrong reasons in my view and would be a complete waste of money.

Dac51

dublinguy2004 wrote:

There are far too many universities in Ireland at the moment; even places like Trinity College and UCD have empty spaces.

The WIT should not be given university status primarily because there is no research worth talking about that is coming out of the institute, the lecturers/academic staff that are appointed are of mediocre standing on an Irish/European level, there is no strategic need for Ireland to have yet another university. I know a lot of PhDs from Trinity/UCD who want to lecture in the ITs not to further their research aims, but so as they can get tenureship in a non-pressurised job that pays €60,000+ for doing nothing.

The country does have a need for qualified people from ITs, why not focus on this and provide excellence in education and training; not everone can be a 1st class graduate and we need plumbers, electricians, builders, office workers, network administrators etc.

Whatever about the points system and intellegence, if there's one thing the points system does tell us, it's the popularity of courses. WIT has no popular courses, i.e. nobody wants to go there! Why? Because it has really low standards. To get university status, all the courses would need to be accredited to their respective professisonal bodies (how many courses in WIT are affiliated?), and would need to be putting out a respectable level of research with the aim of being in the top 500 universities in the world, or higher even. Without these motivations and committment from those in charge (are they capable of this based on their track records?) then it would be a good investment, but really it's never going to happen because it's too risky and monies would be better spent in the more established, red-brick universities where you can trust that they'll produce results.

Budding young Waterfordites should just go to Dublin, Galway or Cork to study. These places have credibility that will stand to you.

Were Waterford to be given a university based on political motivations with no regard to i) the number of university places already available in Ireland, ii) the productivity of existing WIT staff, iiii) the world ranking that Waterford University expected to achieve in say, 5 years then it would be a discrace.

I can see university status being granted for political reasons, all the wrong reasons in my view and would be a complete waste of money.

Reading your post I assume you are looking at this from a typical Dublin point of view where there are universities aplenty. Some points you should take note of:

The South East being one of the largest regions in the state has no university unlike the South, Mid-West, West and East of the country.

Waterford is the only regional gateway city under the National Spatial Strategy not to have a university.

The word 'deserve' should not come into this discussion at all. We should not be 'grateful' to our Dublin masters if WIT is upgraded.

Each year hundreds (possibly thousands) of young people leave the South East to travel to Dublin, Cork, Galway etc for a university education. Most of these people will then get top jobs in the area where they studied and will never return to the South East. Put simply, a drain on skilled workers in this region.

Not having a university puts a black mark against the region when it comes to foreign investment. A lot of multi-nationals looking to set up in Ireland will look at regions with universities as preferred areas for investment.

In summary, the South-East not having a university is hurting us a lot in many ways but the typical line from Dublin is the same old crap - you don't deserve this, we have no money for that etc, etc.

WIT should be upgraded to university status - it's about time some taxpayers money is spent in Waterford and the South-East instead of being spent in an over inflated Dublin.

dublinguy2004

Dac51 wrote:

Reading your post I assume you are looking at this from a typical Dublin point of view where there are universities aplenty. Some points you should take note of:

The South East being one of the largest regions in the state has no university unlike the South, Mid-West, West and East of the country.

Waterford is the only regional gateway city under the National Spatial Strategy not to have a university.

The word 'deserve' should not come into this discussion at all. We should not be 'grateful' to our Dublin masters if WIT is upgraded.

Each year hundreds (possibly thousands) of young people leave the South East to travel to Dublin, Cork, Galway etc for a university education. Most of these people will then get top jobs in the area where they studied and will never return to the South East. Put simply, a drain on skilled workers in this region.

Not having a university puts a black mark against the region when it comes to foreign investment. A lot of multi-nationals looking to set up in Ireland will look at regions with universities as preferred areas for investment.

In summary, the South-East not having a university is hurting us a lot in many ways but the typical line from Dublin is the same old crap - you don't deserve this, we have no money for that etc, etc.

WIT should be upgraded to university status - it's about time some taxpayers money is spent in Waterford and the South-East instead of being spent in an over inflated Dublin.

Just because I'm not from Waterford doesn't mean I'm not entitled to an opinion. WIT has no academic reputaion worth talking about and why should more taxpayers money be thrown at it when there are already thousands of unfilled places country-wide?

You failed to address many of the key points I made. You go on to say that 'it's about time some taxpayers money is spent in Waterford and the South-East instead of being spent in an over inflated Dublin'; that's complete rubbish. Dublin is the capital city and like all capital cities, is there to centralise many functions of the state and therefore one would expect many of the top universities to be located there.

Waterford has a lot going for it including Rosslare harbour, fine agricultural land as well as technology parks etc. You'll find that most of these multinational manufacturing operations e.g. Intel, Analog Devices, Pfizer (all of whom located outside Dublin) don't need mega-intelligent brains to manufacture their products, but need skilled workers who pick up their skills from places like ITs.

Waterford should not be upgraded purely for political reasons because the south east doesn't need a university when there is UCD, DCU, Trinity, Maynooth within 3 hours drive. I don't buy the argument that everyone in the country should live within 1 hour from a university because this is grossly inefficient and would mean that research is sporadic across the country instead of being concentrated in dedicated centres of excellence. You'll find that in most universities the student population is made up of people from all over the country/other EU member states and live away from home; this is the norm rather than the exception. Indeed living away from home whilst attending university (more so in UK/US/Europe), I think, leads to a better education as one is immersed in a fraternal environment that is so unique to university life. Universities are for an education, not just a qualification.

Waterford should concentrate on making its IT better and making it more attractive to students. If the CAO points are going up, then it's popular and students will want to go there, research also needs to improve. There's no need to establish yet another university when there are already unfilled places countrywide.

Rew

Waterford IT has one of the biggest (if not the biggest) IT/Telecoms research groups in the country with a decent academic reputation in Ireland but more so in Europe. As well as that it has several other prominent and well respected research groups in a number of different disciplines.

I actually believe that there should be no difference between ITs/Colleges and Unis as it leads to snobbery and people thinking that a Uni degree is better then an IT one. Truth most of the Uni's aren't all they are cracked up to be but they get a lot more funding.

Talking about living away from home while studying is not relevant to this discussion and im not sure why you brought it up. As for living within 1 hour of a Uni, not everyone can afford to travel and live away from home.

jmcc

dublinguy2004 wrote:

Just because I'm not from Waterford doesn't mean I'm not entitled to an opinion.

And what is it they say about opinions?

Waterford has a lot going for it including Rosslare harbour

What a prize example of the failure of the educational system. Rosslare harbour is in Wexford. Though if you had pleaded for more taxpayer funds to such simple things as the teaching of Irish geography, you might have had a valid opinion. Right now I cannot see the logic of funding more ghetto universities while such an important economic area as the SE is neglected.

The South East requires a university. It will get a university. End of story.

Regards...jmcc

Dac51

dublinguy2004 wrote:

Waterford has a lot going for it including Rosslare harbour, fine agricultural land as well as technology parks etc.

Rosslare harbour in Waterford?? Erm, don't think so. Check a map.

dublinguy2004 wrote:

I don't buy the argument that everyone in the country should live within 1 hour from a university because this is grossly inefficient and would mean that research is sporadic across the country instead of being concentrated in dedicated centres of excellence.

Easy to say when you live within an area that has 4 universities within easy reach. The nearest university to Waterford is Cork - 2hrs drive, then Limerick 2.5hrs drive, Galway 3.5hrs drive or Dublin 2.5hrs drive. Not all people want to study away from home.

dublinguy2004 wrote:

You go on to say that 'it's about time some taxpayers money is spent in Waterford and the South-East instead of being spent in an over inflated Dublin'; that's complete rubbish. Dublin is the capital city and like all capital cities, is there to centralise many functions of the state and therefore one would expect many of the top universities to be located there.

This is exactly what the National Spatial Strategy is trying to correct!! Too much money is being spent on Dublin at the moment and it is growing way out of control. The NSS is designed to correct this imbalance and support investment and infrastructure to the regions outside of Dublin. I like every other PAYE worker pay my fair share of taxes. It would be nice to see that money spent fairly rather than have the goverment throw shovels of money towards an already bloated Dublin.

Capital cities do indeed centralise functions of the state (again another imbalance - decentralisation should correct this) but a bit of support for the regions as well please!

merlante

dublinguy2004 wrote:

Just because I'm not from Waterford doesn't mean I'm not entitled to an opinion. WIT has no academic reputaion worth talking about and why should more taxpayers money be thrown at it when there are already thousands of unfilled places country-wide?

I thought that your initial post was just one to wind up the locals, but you seem to be following up, so I'll address your comments.

WIT has a good academic reputation in a few areas, such as IT, in which field it has one of the largest research groups in the country: TSSG, http://www.tssg.ie

WIT gets miserable coverage in the likes of the Irish Times, which refuse to cover 3rd level education and research outside of the context of the University system. Within the academic community, where there is no such bias, and WIT has standing where it competes.

There are no unfilled places in WIT. Points are increasing. All the more reason why WIT should be cut loose from the ailing IT sector. Check your facts.

dublinguy2004 wrote:

You failed to address many of the key points I made. You go on to say that 'it's about time some taxpayers money is spent in Waterford and the South-East instead of being spent in an over inflated Dublin'; that's complete rubbish. Dublin is the capital city and like all capital cities, is there to centralise many functions of the state and therefore one would expect many of the top universities to be located there.

This simple point is that there is no University in the South East Region, which is half the size of Dublin. It is the third largest region after Dublin and the South. Infrastructure like Universities and large (regional/university) hospitals are provided on a regional basis, yet there is no university in the south east.

With universities in every other region, including smaller regions, do you wonder why people are demanding one. Now it turns out that the south east has the lowest levels of 3rd level education in the country, that multi-nationals often refuse to set up in a city without a university, that universities are far better funded that IT's of the same size, that the local economy of a university city is a lot stronger than one without, that the profile of Waterford city is less than that of other cities, that the average earnings of Waterford city are less than those of every other city, and that the average earnings of the surrounding counties are even less than those in the supposedly impoverished BMW region. e.g. Average earnings are less in Kilkenny or Wexford than in Leitrim or Roscommon! If you know anything about the history of the Irish economy, you'll know that this is a staggering turnabout in the fortunes of the former.

dublinguy2004 wrote:

Waterford has a lot going for it including Rosslare harbour, fine agricultural land as well as technology parks etc. You'll find that most of these multinational manufacturing operations e.g. Intel, Analog Devices, Pfizer (all of whom located outside Dublin) don't need mega-intelligent brains to manufacture their products, but need skilled workers who pick up their skills from places like ITs.

As has been pointed out Rosslare is in Wexford, not Waterford.

You'll find in practice that Analog Devices, Pfizer, Intel, etc. will only set up in the locality of a University. (I couldn't have picked better examples myself)

dublinguy2004 wrote:

Waterford should not be upgraded purely for political reasons because the south east doesn't need a university when there is UCD, DCU, Trinity, Maynooth within 3 hours drive.

What political reasons have been mentioned. We are talking about demographic and economic imperatives.

The point here is that travel is a barrier to education, and statistics show that a much lower percentage of the population of the south east hold a third level degree. Having a university in the heart of a region is vital to fostering an educated workforce, and is vital to attracting industry. (and vital to getting to coverage in the Irish Times, so that Dublin people are sufficiently educated on the region)

dublinguy2004 wrote:

I don't buy the argument that everyone in the country should live within 1 hour from a university because this is grossly inefficient and would mean that research is sporadic across the country instead of being concentrated in dedicated centres of excellence. You'll find that in most universities the student population is made up of people from all over the country/other EU member states and live away from home; this is the norm rather than the exception. Indeed living away from home whilst attending university (more so in UK/US/Europe), I think, leads to a better education as one is immersed in a fraternal environment that is so unique to university life. Universities are for an education, not just a qualification.

You have obviously not lived hand to mouth in a scummy bedsit for four years.

Waterford people, and people from the south east, are only looking for parity.

dublinguy2004 wrote:

Waterford should concentrate on making its IT better and making it more attractive to students. If the CAO points are going up, then it's popular and students will want to go there, research also needs to improve. There's no need to establish yet another university when there are already unfilled places countrywide.

It annoys me that you can come on here, with no research or knowledge of the situation and feel that you can make pronouncements in a vacuum. You have not addressed the main arguments in favour of a university, and much of your information is incorrect.

For example, you state that points are low in WIT. This is not the case at all, and WIT does have popular courses, whose points are well over 400. WIT course points rise year on year. Students numbers rise year on year. Research conducted in WIT, again, is rising year on year, despite the fact that the WIT has an unclear research remit, as a result of its status as an IT. WIT has full time students numbers of 6,400, and a part time cohort of 4,550. It has as many degrees as NUI Maynooth, but because of the size of the region, it has to grow these courses substantially, and can only really do so under a university remit.

WIT is about the same size as NUI Maynooth, with similar students numbers, and in some areas, higher points for courses. If WIT became a university, it would become one of the largest universities in the country, because of the large population of the south east. As it is, it compares favourably with the state's smallest university.

As for there being "far too many universities" in Ireland. The answer to this is that we want Waterford to provide its fair share of university education in Ireland. We want a campus of the National University of Ireland, of which NUIG, NUIM, etc. are constituents. In future these universities will probably be seen as just campuses of the NUI, in order that the NUI can compete internationally. Waterford is merely looking for an equal slice of this. If we do not get it, the city will be destroyed when it's manufacturing sector is destroyed, ala Donegal.

Being from Dublin, you fail to understand that we need more degrees in Waterford far more than we need international standing for our University. This is about the provision of University education, or not. It is not always an option for people to "set up" in another city and support themselves through college.

As for research, this is a separate issue to education. Research groups can be centralised, or even better, distributed across universities and ITs in Ireland, which to a lesser extent is true today. We *can* provide education in the regions *and* create an umbrella university, such as the NUI, that will compete internationally in terms of research and otherwise.

Rew

2 things, first he's a troll, and a stuck up one at that. He has about 4 usernames here.

Feedback thread: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=293188&highlight=dublinguy2004

Second, WIT has been getting good coverage from the Irish Times for the last year. WIT has been mentioned twice in the last week or 2. TSSG has had a full article and several mentions as part of bigger articles on WIT.

merlante

Rew wrote:

2 things, first he's a troll, and a stuck up one at that. He has about 4 usernames here.

Feedback thread: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=293188&highlight=dublinguy2004

Second, WIT has been getting good coverage from the Irish Times for the last year. WIT has been mentioned twice in the last week or 2. TSSG has had a full article and several mentions as part of bigger articles on WIT.

Enough said.

WIT may be getting better coverage than it used to, but the Irish Times devote far more column inches to any of the Universities than they do to it. In their recent 3rd level supplement (after the leaving cert results came out), Waterford had a small column along with the other ITs, while all the universities had large writeups. IT's, whether big or small, and regardless of student numbers, are simply not given the same level of respect by the Irish Times - the so called paper of record.

Bards

From Today's (8-Sep-2005) Irish Examiner
=========================================================

A UNIVERSITY in Waterford would generate 2,000 jobs and up to €100 million for the local economy, economic consultants have found.

Their report recommends that the Waterford Institute of Technology be given full university status and says the move would generate €96.7 million annually for the economy of the South-East.

The report, commissioned by Waterford Chamber of Commerce and carried out by Goodbody Economic Consultants, has found that more than 2,000 jobs would also be generated either directly or indirectly by the upgrade.

The study shows the South-East is suffering from a lack of investment, particularly in education, and, as a result, the region has fallen behind the rest of Ireland in terms of economic development and the number of graduates it produces.

According to data from the Central Statistics Office, per capita income in the South-East region is only 89.5% of the national average. The region is also overly reliant on poorly paid self-employment.

The South-East also suffers from a lack of multi-national investment, despite its position on the eastern seaboard and improving infrastructure links. In addition, the study found there was a relatively low proportion of the labour force with third level qualifications.

The region also suffers from a brain drain, as those taking up university courses move outside the region.

Waterford Chamber of Commerce president Dr Frank Dolphin said the development of a university in the South-East was crucial.

“Universities in Ireland and abroad are becoming more and more an integral part of the economic and social development of the region in which they are situated.

“Universities provide locally available knowledge, creative workforces, research capability and access to global expertise. They provide strategic analysis and leadership, assist in attracting critical foreign direct investment and help to create ‘clusters’ of economic activity,” Dr Dolphin said.

“In worldwide studies of regions which have lagged behind their national counterparts, the presence of a university in the region consistently proved to be the catalyst in the revitalisation of these economies,” Dr Dolphin said.

AdMMM

The full report is available here http://www.waterfordchamber.ie/goodbodywitreport

merlante

We're getting there!

A few letters to the Irish Times wouldn't go astray lads!

We have to get the ball rolling well in advance of the next general election.

OLDYELLAR

Well if that open night I was at out there last Tuesday was anything to go by , WIT couldnt organise a piss up in a brewery.
But in saying that its where I studied and got my degree and Id be all for them gaining University status.

mike65

I just skimmed the report which is substantial, the figures are pretty damning we may have the weather but not the investment or jobs.

Will anyone in the Dept of Education or Finance listen? I suspect there is quite a bit of lobbying from Universities in Cork and Dublin not to allow it. I dunno why I think that (maybe I just suspect they want our best brains to boost thier local economies).

Mike.

Bards

According to Seamus Brennan on Question & Answers (or Questions with no answers) last night he has said that this and previous governments maybe listened too much to Lobby Groups. Hopefully they will listen to the people who got/keep them in power or else it will be a change of government next time out.

Lets make this an election issue when local TD's come knocking on the door.. It would be best to have this report printed out and ask them what they think and are going to do about it.

Marcopolo85

merlante wrote:

They're not as safe as they used to be. Sinn Fein will be a big threat next time around. And anyway, when you have a cabinet minister in your constituency you have good reason to expect fair play.

In the past I would have had to agree with you, but I think those days are gone now.

We I for one sincerely hope that the Shinners are kept out of Government by all means possible. They're even more lunatic than the Greens! :rolleyes:

ishmael whale

Dac51 wrote:

I like every other PAYE worker pay my fair share of taxes. It would be nice to see that money spent fairly rather than have the goverment throw shovels of money towards an already bloated Dublin.

Just to be clear, it is simply not correct to state that Dublin benefits from taxes paid elsewhere.
http://www.cso.ie/releasespublicati...t/regincome.pdf

Page 13 of the publication linked above illustrates this. Dublin households pay €5,474 million in tax and receive €3,939 million in transfers, yielding a net €1,535 million. Mid East Region households (Kildare, Meath, Wicklow) pay €1,759 million in tax and get €1,143 million transfers, yielding a net €616 million.

Overall Irish households pay €15,047 million in tax and receive €13,174 million in social transfers. The surplus of €1,873 million can be largely attributed to the Dublin and Mid East regions combined net contribution of €2,151 million.

It’s a simple fact that Dublin and the Mid East region is an income generator for the country. If you want to find a target for a complaint of misdirection of resources, look West.

http://www.lookwest.ie/lookwest/Home/WestLiving/tabid/105/Default.aspx#_Your_Child’s_Education
56% of all 17-18 year olds in Galway and 55% in Mayo and Sligo go to college – compared with 44% nationally.

Despite the generous share of national resources enjoyed by the West, they pontificate as if they were neglected. That’s the source of your problem, not Dublin.

That said, it would seem hard to make an objective case for a University in Waterford. There’s no shortage of third level places, but we do have a problem with quality at third level. That suggests a need to improve existing Universities rather than creating a new one. Although clearly resources could be released by, say, closing the Castlebar campus of GMIT – where demand for courses is so low that its not unusual for them to be open to anyone with a leaving cert.

Ireland's universities have a problem in making the grade internationally. Take the assessment here: http://ed.sjtu.edu.cn/rank/2004/top500list.htm
Trinity scrapes onto the European top 100, but doesn’t make it into the global top 200. UCD and UCC don’t make it into the global top 400. The rest don’t feature at all. This is the type of issue that we should be getting exercised about. If people keep up this focus on their own county, we’re going to vote ourselves poor.

ishmael whale

There’s an article in the current ‘Waterford News’ of interest to this topic. You nearly think the speaker has gotten the point and can appreciate the need to look beyond his own county.

http://www.waterford-news.com/news/story.asp?j=19352 Fergus Cronin, chairman, Kilkenny Industrial Development Company (KIDCO) …. said, “We have looked closely at the various models and possibilities and it is now clear that the only viable option is regional and I am fully convinced that the Waterford Institute is best positioned to lead the university drive.

Then comes the punchline.

Mr Cronin added. “A physical presence for this university in Kilkenny would be important with a concentration of resources on areas of existing excellence. It is apparent that political will is the key.”

In other words, “I’m all for WIT being made a university so long as Kilkenny gets a decent share of the pork.” Similarly, remarks have been made to the effect that Carlow IT should be included in any upgrade. Which all adds in to making it hard to see the campaign to upgrade WIT having any relationship to what actually needs to be done to get Irish third level education holding its own internationally.

merlante

ishmael whale wrote:

That said, it would seem hard to make an objective case for a University in Waterford. There’s no shortage of third level places, but we do have a problem

The case for a University in Waterford is pretty solid.

There are two arguments that have to answered:
1. Is it good for the south east.
2. Is it good for Ireland.

It should be obvious that a University is needed for the prosperity of the south east: many reports have cited this, and any amount of facts and figures can be given to back this up.

You say there are no shortage of third level places. There are in the south east. Not everyone is in a position to travel to university, and when there isin't a university within 100 miles (the position of south Wexford folk) or 80 miles (Waterford City) then you are less likely to properly consider a university. (i.e. if you've never seen one)

You simply can't do all types of courses in an IT. The south east is the third largest region in the country, but it has no university. No university for a population of 450,000. Sure, a lot of people leave the south east (some never coming back) to go to university, but as many go to the WIT, a considerable number of potential students don't go to college at all. We know that there are less students and graduates in the south east than *any* other part of the country.

Many other reasons have been given in this thread for why the south east desperately needs a university.

As for the second point, is it good for Ireland? Well balanced development is good for Ireland. Waterford City (and the surrounding counties) will become another Donegal if more high tech industry is not brought to the region. The south east would cost the state more in the long run if it doesn't receive the investment.

Also, we know that the total number of students, and hence graduates, in the state is lower because there is no university in Waterford. The state needs more graduates.

The state also needs more research. What the state doesn't need is its third largest region dying on its feet.

What are the arguments against? WIT is already most of the way to becoming a university, anyway. It has the same number of students as NUI Maynooth, a university. We're not talking about building a university from scratch here.

ishmael whale wrote:

with quality at third level. That suggests a need to improve existing Universities rather than creating a new one. Although clearly resources could be released by, say, closing the Castlebar campus of GMIT – where demand for courses is so low that its not unusual for them to be open to anyone with a leaving cert.

Our standard of third level teaching is as good as anywhere else. It's research that we have to build on. Luckily pan-university research groups and collaboration is growing in Ireland. Put a bit of structure on it, and there's no reason why a research group can't operate between say Cork, Limerick and Waterford. Waterford already has a considerable research group called TSSG, by the way. Do you think we should shut it down, and disperse those fine researchers to the universities?

In short if we followed your 'pursuit of excellence' rationale to it's ultimate conclusion, we'd have one single very large university in Dublin. But that's not what we have. Instead we have smaller universities in all of the large regions, except the south east. Can we at least have a little bit of consistency?

ishmael whale wrote:

Ireland's universities have a problem in making the grade internationally. Take the assessment here: http://ed.sjtu.edu.cn/rank/2004/top500list.htm
Trinity scrapes onto the European top 100, but doesn’t make it into the global top 200. UCD and UCC don’t make it into the global top 400. The rest don’t feature at all. This is the type of issue that we should be getting exercised about. If people keep up this focus on their own county, we’re going to vote ourselves poor.

This is the sort of ridiculous argument that is casually wheeled out to suppress anything that looks like a decentralisation of services.

The fact is that most of the existing universities in Ireland will never compete on an international stage. They are too small, they do not have a complete set of faculties, they don't have enough students, etc. Our universities should serve to educate third level students in the state's larger regions (such as the south east) up to a good third level standard, and offer prospects for research, etc.

The only way that most of our universities will gain international credentials is by coming together under an umbrella group, like the National University of Ireland. http://www.nui.ie/

Basically the idea is, large federal universities, with campuses in the main cities that are, to a greater or lesser extent, idependant of each other, but that can pool resources in key areas. This way, the whole of Ireland gets educated, and Ireland is 'rated' in terms of third level productivity, in terms of its wider university structures.

The argument that "we have enough universities already" was made before the establishment of UL, DCU and NUIM. The same people will be saying the same about a Waterford University. My attitude is that it has to happen, so somehow, it will.

ishmael whale

merlante wrote:

This is the sort of ridiculous argument that is casually wheeled out to suppress anything that looks like a decentralisation of services.

Drawing attention to a reasonably systematic survey that confirms that none of Ireland’s universities cuts the mustard internationally is not ridiculous. Suggesting that the upgrading of an IT in the regions to university status is more important than having even one university in the country with a decent international ranking is ridiculous and unsustainable.

That said, suggesting Waterford is a potential site for a university in the context of the national spatial strategy is not an outlandish position to have. But I think you need to put that argument more clearly in a national context. We need fewer, better quality third level places. If you were to argue that GMIT Castlebar serves no useful purpose and that it should be closed and the resources released used to enhance WIT I could see sense in what you are saying. It fits into the spatial strategy idea that the problem with regional policy to date is that resources are spread too thinly as every mickey mouse town expects to be looked after. But suggesting that upgrading WIT is more important than action to improve the international standing of, say, TCD, is simply unrealistic.

I don’t share your confidence that our third level teaching standards score higher than research. You may have some basis for saying this, but I fear it may be just the usual complacency we have about the ‘brilliance’ of our educational system. International surveys find our schoolchildren performing at a mediocre level compared to their peers abroad. I’m not aware of any survey that suggests they make this ground back at third level.

I don’t doubt that WIT is as good as any IT and probably much better than some. But can I suggest that if all that was required was a change in name it would have been done. I’ve seen a few people saying ‘sure its practically a university already’. What I’d like to see is an actual price tag on how much an upgrade will cost.

Finally, if you want the campaign to have any credibility you’ll have to tell people in Kilkenny and Carlow to get real and stop saying ‘Me too, I want a bit of a university too.’ Otherwise the whole thing just looks like another white elephant in the making.

jmcc

ishmael whale wrote:

Drawing attention to a reasonably systematic survey that confirms that none of Ireland’s universities cuts the mustard internationally is not ridiculous. Suggesting that the upgrading of an IT in the regions to university status is more important than having even one university in the country with a decent international ranking is ridiculous and unsustainable.

Are you the same troll who said that the South East should not get a Radio Therapy Facility? The same troll who seemed to be content to let cancer sufferers travel in severe pain to Cork or Dublin for the sake of some pedantic argument? The function of a university is to educate. The function of a university is not to get international awards from ultimately irrelevant committees.

But suggesting that upgrading WIT is more important than action to improve the international standing of, say, TCD, is simply unrealistic.

To Hell with TCD. It is an irrelevance to this argument. It has the same status as the Dublin Media Lab Europe - something that was also going to improve the standing of Dublin and ended up making the people behind it global village idiots.

Finally, if you want the campaign to have any credibility you’ll have to tell people in Kilkenny and Carlow to get real and stop saying ‘Me too, I want a bit of a university too.’ Otherwise the whole thing just looks like another white elephant in the making.

The most effective way to get anything done is by creating a sense of terror in the minds of political appointees and politicians. Explaining the terms of the termination of their employment in cold, harsh electoral numbers works wonders. That is political reality.

Regards...jmcc

merlante

ishmael whale wrote:

Drawing attention to a reasonably systematic survey that confirms that none of Ireland’s universities cuts the mustard internationally is not ridiculous. Suggesting that the upgrading of an IT in the regions to university status is more important than having even one university in the country with a decent international ranking is ridiculous and unsustainable.

You seem to have totally ignored my federal university argument, which is the only way that Ireland will gain a world beating university. To be honest, I'm not sure that even one university for 4 million people would even get us anywhere near the top of the world table.

In any case, you are putting the cart before the horse. The first priority of third level education is to educate the work force. When this is happening most efficiently then we can talk about the world standing of universities. In the south east, this is not happening to the degree that it should. Upgrading the WIT, the largest IT with the largest number of courses, to a University would address these issues. The country has become rich because of its graduates, not because of the standing of their universities or ITs.

It is certainly nonsense to say that NUIG or UCC will be boosted significantly up the world university rankings, simple by not upgrading the WIT!

ishmael whale wrote:

That said, suggesting Waterford is a potential site for a university in the context of the national spatial strategy is not an outlandish position to have.

To say the least. A university in Waterford makes as much, if not more, economic sense than a university in Limerick or Galway.

The "regions" should not be seen as holding Dublin back, but as genuine engines of growth. Waterford city has been an important commercial centre for many centuries, but it will become a burden without investment.

ishmael whale wrote:

But I think you need to put that argument more clearly in a national context. We need fewer, better quality third level places. If you were to

This is ridiculous. Third level teachers in Ireland are as well educated as they need to be, probably more so, and industry needs the graduates. I could agree that some courses are not as challenging as they should be, but thats neither here nor there.

ishmael whale wrote:

argue that GMIT Castlebar serves no useful purpose and that it should be closed and the resources released used to enhance WIT I could see sense in what you are saying. It fits into the spatial strategy idea that the problem with regional policy to date is that resources are spread too thinly as every mickey mouse town expects to be looked after. But suggesting that upgrading WIT is more important than action to improve the international standing of, say, TCD, is simply unrealistic.

GMIT Castlebar is vital to the economy of the area. Are you seriously suggesting that we cut off such areas completely. I don't think that Castlebar and its environs warrant a university, by a long shot, but there should be something there.

Yes there is a problem with spreading *certain* resources too thinly. Decentralisation being an example - locations should have been Gateways and maybe some hubs. However the lack of a university in Waterford and the south east (again, the state's third most populous region, after dublin and the south) is a straightforward lack of infrastructure. If we were to go by population, there should have been a university in Waterford before Galway, Limerick or Maynooth.

We may lobby for a 100 things over the next century, and we might not be given any of them, but the university alone, is something that we simply need for the city's survival, let alone prosperity.

isael whale wrote:

I don’t share your confidence that our third level teaching standards score higher than research. You may have some basis for saying this, but I fear it may be just the usual complacency we have about the ‘brilliance’ of our educational system. International surveys find our schoolchildren performing at a mediocre level compared to their peers abroad. I’m not aware of any survey that suggests they make this ground back at third level.

It is by no means established that our education system is worse than most. The point is that the graduate this is eventually produced is just as good as anywhere else. They are employed in this country by multinationals who continually stay, and re-invest in, Ireland.

Also I don't think we're that badly off in terms of research, we could just benefit a little more from economies of scale.

ishmael whale wrote:

I don’t doubt that WIT is as good as any IT and probably much better than some. But can I suggest that if all that was required was a change in name it would have been done. I’ve seen a few people saying ‘sure its practically a university already’. What I’d like to see is an actual price tag on how much an upgrade will cost.

WIT is the only IT that is fit to compare itself to a university. It's not that Waterford would not require quite a bit of investment to bring it up to the standard, but by no means are we starting from scratch.

ishmael whale wrote:

Finally, if you want the campaign to have any credibility you’ll have to tell people in Kilkenny and Carlow to get real and stop saying ‘Me too, I want a bit of a university too.’ Otherwise the whole thing just looks like another white elephant in the making.

I happen to agree with you there. Unfortunately, because I don't honestly don't think that our national government is going to merely acceed to the genuine merits of the case, we need cross-party, cross-county support for it in the south east. This entails compromise, and I agree that the current proposal is (literally) a compromised one.

We do need this desperately though. Waterford is having a lot of difficulty attracting foreign direct investment because, without a university, we simply cannot compare favourably to Galway and Limerick. Very often, Waterford is not even mentioned as a major city anymore.

ishmael whale

jmcc

I’m not sure you’re adding anything to the debate, particularly the airy dismissal of the need for our universities to register internationally as places where significant research is undertaken. Media Labs Europe was a failure. That’s part of the problem. We need to create a success.

The ratings I’ve provided are not some meaningless award from some committee. It’s a survey that grew out of China seeing a need to rate how well their third level institutions performed when compared globally. They see the importance of raising standards. Unless we’re content with becoming the new Albania we’d do well to follow their example.

You seem to be simply saying that a university be provided, regardless of whether there’s any actual justification for the project. This puts in you much the same parochial corner as Kilkenny people contemplating parading through Waterford City in their GAA jerseys to protest about the proposed administrative boundary change. As I’ve said, the case for a university is not outlandish. But you need to make it. For example, I haven’t seen any indication of what the upgrade would cost. That needs to be made clear, and its in your own interest too unless you’re satisfied with the ‘upgrade’ consisting of simply changing the name of WIT to WCU or NUIW or whatever with no actual substantive change to the institution.

Melante

I wouldn’t ignore your suggestion that only a federal university could potentially have the economies of scale to register internationally. All I'd really insist is its necessary to achieve international recognition in some way. Training loads of graduates in mediocre universities won’t keep us in the game. There’s plenty of graduates from average colleges in Eastern Europe and elsewhere to meet that demand. We need to aim considerably higher.

To be clear, I’m not saying that failing to upgrade WIT will in and of itself put TCD in the world top 100. I’m simply pointing out that resources are fixed, and more fixed than they have to be due to the abolition of third level fees. Getting even one Irish university to register internationally is more important than upgrading an IT.

That said, I can happily agree that priorities to date have been screwy and Waterford has been less favourably treated than other locations. But I’m not sure that you are following through on where this logic leads, in particular acknowledging that GMIT Castlebar (and possibly some other institutions) would not seem to be particularly useful. If something has to go, it should surely be the institutions offering low quality courses with low demand. I’d rate a WIT upgrade as a lesser priority than the need to register globally, but as a higher priority than keeping moribund institutions going just for pig iron.

When you say that ‘It is by no means established that our education system is worse than most’, in fact there was a recent survey showing that our schoolchildren do not perform well by international comparison (I think it was an OECD survey – if you’re interested I can probably dig it out.) Multinationals are here, among other things, because of our low taxes. Our cheap labour advantage is gone. Why hire someone with a Bachelor’s degree from a mediocre Irish college when you can hire someone with a Phd from a mediocre Eastern European college for less?

But, again, I’m not saying that the case for ‘NUIW’ is outlandish. Just that it needs to clearly fit into a sensible national strategy.

jmcc

ishmael whale wrote:

I’m not sure you’re adding anything to the debate, particularly the airy dismissal of the need for our universities to register internationally as places where significant research is undertaken. Media Labs Europe was a failure. That’s part of the problem. We need to create a success.

No. The function of the university is to educate. It is not to statisfy the criteria of some self-perpetuating mediocrity. Media Lab Europe was a failure because it was run by cretins and created by intellectual midgets. It never had any standing and indeed, in the international research community, MLE and ML are very much a long running joke. Real research is being done in Ireland. You just don't hear very much about it because it is often specialised and theoretical. There has been a major problem in commericalising that research in the past but that seems to be changing for the better.

The ratings I’ve provided are not some meaningless award from some committee. It’s a survey that grew out of China seeing a need to rate how well their third level institutions performed when compared globally.

The function of a university is to educate. The Chinese universities are primarily concerned with providing the opportunities to the people intheir cachement areas.

You seem to be simply saying that a university be provided, regardless of whether there’s any actual justification for the project.

There is justification for the project. The Southeast needs a university. I happen to be one of those people who remember that Waterford is Ireland's first city and as such I don't take kindly to dubious "surveys" being used to deny Waterford what it requires.

Getting even one Irish university to register internationally is more important than upgrading an IT.

You sound like someone who has never done any research. This is not the Middle Ages where a university is the greatest concentration of a country's intellect. The current range of research is so vast that it is difficult for a university to get recognised for a wide range of research. In fact unversities get recognised for their specialties. And WIT via its TSSG is far more internationally recognised for its work in telecommunications than most of the Dublin colleges. Since Dublin has enough universities - one poster here claimed that there were empty places, why not eliminate a few of them and create better, regional universities starting with Waterford?

Regards...jmcc

merlante

ishmael whale wrote:

Melante

I wouldn’t ignore your suggestion that only a federal university could potentially have the economies of scale to register internationally. All I'd really insist is its necessary to achieve international recognition in some way. Training loads of graduates in mediocre universities won’t keep us in the game. There’s plenty of graduates from average colleges in Eastern Europe and elsewhere to meet that demand. We need to aim considerably higher.

Our 3rd level teachers are all very well qualified, usually phd level. This is easily enough to bring a student up to degree level. Graduates will be as good as their individual ability is; individual ability is the biggest factor. You seem to be hinting that it would be better if only the best potential graduates were allowed to go to college. However, the fact is, the economy needs mediocre graduates just as much as good graduates. While I agree that in the future we'll need to upskill our workforce to fend off competition from eastern europe, etc., the point is that we don't have the R&D in business in this country yet, to put an upskilled workforce in to.

It's not the quality of graduates, per say, that gives a country prestige, anyway, it's the countries that have shown that they can respond to the interests of business. That is Ireland. We are continually gaining a reputation for our research also.

Additionally, can I ask you if there is any room in your world for the arts? Universities exist to educate 1st (as has been said), and to serve the economy, 2nd. Some courses won't yield graduates that will 'directly' add to the economy. Galway benefits from its arts courses, Waterford IT as an IT, cannot offer any arts courses.

ishmael whale wrote:

To be clear, I’m not saying that failing to upgrade WIT will in and of itself put TCD in the world top 100. I’m simply pointing out that resources are fixed, and more fixed than they have to be due to the abolition of third level fees. Getting even one Irish university to register internationally is more important than upgrading an IT.

I am quite sure that failing to upgrade WIT will not benefit TCD all that much. I am also quite sure that failing to do so will have a huge impact on Waterford and the south east! Also, resources in education need not be fixed.

I totally disagree that having a university recognised in the top 100 in the world, etc. is worth as much as you say. We have not suffered in the slightest degree from this not being the case. Nobody expects a small country like Ireland to be rated on such a table anyway. However as I have explained to you time and time again. Waterford *needs* a university.

Universities in this country, whether you like it or not, are provided on a regional basis, and the south east is the only large region without a university. I have also explained that the country produces less graduates because of that fact.

The costs of upgrading WIT are tiny compared with those costs entailed in order to bolster a university to the top of some table. And upgrading WIT will, in my view, yield more of a benefit, and better value for money. WIT should be upgraded ASAP, and then work can begin on a federal university approach, which is by far the most likely to get us the international recognition that you are talking about.

ishmael whale wrote:

That said, I can happily agree that priorities to date have been screwy and Waterford has been less favourably treated than other locations. But I’m not sure that you are following through on where this logic leads, in particular acknowledging that GMIT Castlebar (and possibly some other institutions) would not seem to be particularly useful. If something has to go, it should surely be the institutions offering low quality courses with low demand. I’d rate a WIT upgrade as a lesser priority than the need to register globally, but as a higher priority than keeping moribund institutions going just for pig iron.

I'm saying that GMIT castlebar, fullfills a need in Mayo. Mayo people have to be educated as well you know. You seem to be under the impression that the entire country can and should move to Dublin to receive their 3rd level education! This is totally unrealistic and does not lend itself to the good spread of 3rd level graduates that we more or less have currently. Small regions should receive less infrastructure. Mayo needs GMIT. Waterford and the south east needs a university.

Nothing has to go, closing ITs would be like closing the railways: a really dumb idea. My logic does not lead to rampant decentralisation, just appropriate decentralisation. Your logic is for absolute centralisation. As a self assured individual from the capital (I guess) who has never wanted for anything, you look abroad to see how Ireland (read 'Dublin') can increase its international prestige, you happily ignore the internal educational issues that this country faces.

Just imagine for a moment that you are living between 1800 and 1922, Dublin is not the centre of the universe, London is, and TCD and UCD are held back by arguments that educational funding be concentrated in London. All of a sudden, you'd find yourself making the same arguments for Dublin as I am making for Waterford. Nobody likes to see their city dealt with in a heavy handed (and unfair) fashion.

ishmael whale wrote:

But, again, I’m not saying that the case for ‘NUIW’ is outlandish. Just that it needs to clearly fit into a sensible national strategy.

Is Waterford not a gateway in the strategy? What are you talking about?

I think I have done enough arguing about the Waterford case. Perhaps it is time that you explained to me why the midwest or western regions should have a universty when the south east, a more populous region, should not?

Or perhaps you think that UL and NUIG should go?

jmcc

merlante wrote:

Additionally, can I ask you if there is any room in your world for the arts? Universities exist to educate 1st (as has been said), and to serve the economy, 2nd. Some courses won't yield graduates that will 'directly' add to the economy. Galway benefits from its arts courses, Waterford IT as an IT, cannot offer any arts courses.

This is an interesting point. As someone from the techie side of things, the overwhelming ethos was that we were intellectually better than those who did arts (a strange generalisation that was right in some cases and was completely wrong in others). However WIT has always had an art deparment and the fusion between multimedia and art has even resulted in a multimedia degree which draws from both the technology field and the arts field. The problem is that the term "arts" covers such a wide range of subjects from pure art to mindnumbing literary criticism. The growth of arts courses can probably be tied to increasing income and that income has to be generated somewhere.

It is galling to see the ghetto universities funding psuedo-science degrees and courses when the money could be better spent elsewhere. The arts may not be as essential to a good university as they once were. However a centres of excellence approach to the arts might be a better way to free up resources for more pressing educational courses.

Regards...jmcc

mike65

You seem to be simply saying that a university be provided, regardless of whether there’s any actual justification for the project. This puts in you much the same parochial corner as Kilkenny people contemplating parading through Waterford City in their GAA jerseys to protest about the proposed administrative boundary change. As I’ve said, the case for a university is not outlandish. But you need to make it. For example, I haven’t seen any indication of what the upgrade would cost. That needs to be made clear, and its in your own interest too unless you’re satisfied with the ‘upgrade’ consisting of simply changing the name of WIT to WCU or NUIW or whatever with no actual substantive change to the institution.

Just read the Goodbodys report. They estimate university would generate 100 million euro of busines a year for the region I'd say the upgrade would therefore pay for itself pretty quickly. Not that the cost or payback period should be a primary consideration. Its the brain-drain thats important.

Mike.

ishmael whale

jmcc wrote:

Real research is being done in Ireland. You just don't hear very much about it because it is often specialised and theoretical.

While there’s no particular reason why you should agree with every detail of what Merlante says, can I point out he doesn’t seem to be denying the essential reality that Ireland does not host much research. That’s the essential finding of the survey I’ve posted up, and to be honest I think you’ll find much the same perception in contributions made by IDA etc. I think you’re going out on a limb with your apparent belief that everything’s fine, its just that the Daily Star doesn’t have a nerd page so the great unwashed haven’t a clue

jmcc wrote:

The Chinese universities are primarily concerned with providing the opportunities to the people in their cachement areas.

You’re stepping around the point rather than dealing with it. The Chinese are trying to measure quality. Are you suggesting that mediocrity is good enough in Ireland?

jmcc wrote:

Waterford is Ireland's first city and as such I don't take kindly to dubious "surveys" being used to deny Waterford what it requires.

What a convincing case you’re making. So that’s a university for the Hill of Tara.

jmcc wrote:

This is not the Middle Ages where a university is the greatest concentration of a country's intellect.

The point, as acknowledge by Merlante, is the there is very little private sector R&D. So we’re sort of stuck with the universities to start with.

jmcc wrote:

Since Dublin has enough universities - one poster here claimed that there were empty places, why not eliminate a few of them and create better, regional universities starting with Waterford?

The main hook that got me into this thread was a comment by an earlier contributor implying that Dublin benefited from taxes gathered in the regions, when the truth is exactly the reverse. I have a major problem when someone lets their ‘Dublin’ hump cloud their thinking. As with the sub post office issue you’ll find there’s very little problem in removing redundant facilities from Dublin. The problem lies elsewhere.

ishmael whale

merlante wrote:

While I agree that in the future we'll need to upskill our workforce to fend off competition from eastern europe, etc., the point is that we don't have the R&D in business in this country yet, to put an upskilled workforce in to.

I agree that upgrading third level is only part of the picture. There’s also factor like the simple fact that Irish people tend to invest in property rather than start-ups, and the general weakness of the indigenous private sector. But its an agenda that we need to address.

merlante wrote:

Additionally, can I ask you if there is any room in your world for the arts?

Certainly. By coincidence I’ve just finished a book by Desmond Fennell (don’t laugh) and one point I feel he’s right on is the lack of intellectual debate in Ireland, and the absence of any worthwhile Irish contribution to global debates. He wrote this in 1983 but you can run it forward to today and contemplate, for example, our complete absence from debates on the Gulf War or our non-engagement with EU other than as a cash cow.

merlante wrote:

Also, resources in education need not be fixed.

mike65 wrote:

They estimate university would generate 100 million euro of busines a year for the region I'd say the upgrade would therefore pay for itself pretty quickly. .

The case for ‘NUIW’ has to state a price and suggest where than price can be found. I can’t accept it should come at the cost of raising standards in existing universities. I could accept it coming from closure of unneeded and underperforming facilities or from a general re-introduction of third level fees. The €100 million is a notional figure, which probably includes whatever extra cash the state would need to stump up. It’s not sitting in a bank account somewhere, waiting for Mary Hanafin to write a cheque. Is the initial cost actually known? Where’s it going to come from?

merlante wrote:

Nobody expects a small country like Ireland to be rated on such a table anyway

Out of the old EU 15, Ireland, Portugal, Greece and Luxembourg are the ones that don’t have any universities on the European top 100. Apart from these, even the smaller states each have a couple of entries. And, picking a country with roughly our population, Norway has one. If we’re serious about Ireland developing this is a necessary and important target.

merlante wrote:

You seem to be under the impression that the entire country can and should move to Dublin to receive their 3rd level education!

No, but I am suggesting that Mayo people would very likely continue to participate strongly at third level if the Castlebar campus was closed both in other institutions in the region and elsewhere. As with your comparison of Dublin vs London, it’s a question of scale vs decentralisation. I’m simply suggesting that the very low entry requirements for GMIT Castlebar suggests its courses are not in demand, and that makes it a candidate for closure, or to be less extreme, rationalisation. I’m simply pointing out that there are resources devoted to third level that don’t seem to be achieving very much.

merlante wrote:

Why the midwest or western regions should have a universty when the south east, a more populous region, should not? Or perhaps you think that UL and NUIG should go?

I can think of no reason why the needs of the SE should take second place to smaller regions but, as should be clear, I’m totally comfortable with the idea that some third levels institutions might be surplus to requirements. Not necessarily UL or NUIG, although I’ve an open mind and I certainly associate overprovision with the West. Anticipating the reaction of some, I don’t think IT Tallaght or any Dublin college is sacrosanct in this context. But, as I’ve said, closure of redundant facilities in Dublin is rarely a problem.

I think the main thing of interest is how much it would cost to turn WIT into NUIW. If it truly was a paltry sum it would surely just have been done. If the cost is significant, then the issue of how this impacts on other colleges simply has to be recognised.

Alternatively, you may find this is another reason to reintroduce third level fees

jmcc

ishmael whale wrote:

While there’s no particular reason why you should agree with every detail of what Merlante says, can I point out he doesn’t seem to be denying the essential reality that Ireland does not host much research.

Ireland does host a lot of research in relation to its size. The problem is that it is specialised and a lot is theoretical. Therefore the average clueless Irish Times reader would be unlikely to read about it because the people it employs as technology journalists just haven't the technological background to appreciate what goes on in Ireland. Hell most of their "technology journalists" couldn't tell one end of a soldering iron from the other.

That’s the essential finding of the survey I’ve posted up, and to be honest I think you’ll find much the same perception in contributions made by IDA etc.

Does IDA still exist?

I think you’re going out on a limb with your apparent belief that everything’s fine, its just that the Daily Star doesn’t have a nerd page so the great unwashed haven’t a clue

I'm sure that you, as an avid reader of said publication, could always pitch such a column to them. I don't think everything is fine. I just know it is not as bad as you make out. While you seek some kind of justification in the eyes of mediocre committees, researchers in Ireland know that results are the only justification required.

You’re stepping around the point rather than dealing with it. The Chinese are trying to measure quality. Are you suggesting that mediocrity is good enough in Ireland?

How very Confucian of me. The committees are just a perpetuation of mediocrity looking for some raison d'etre. They find it in the gullible fools such as yourself who take them seriously.

So that’s a university for the Hill of Tara.

So it is you, the same pedant who wanted cancer sufferers from the South East to make the agonising trip to Cork or Dublin for Radio Therapy because you and the discredited reports you relied upon said that the SE was not worthy of an RT facility. You should be more careful about reusing the same tired old arguments.

The point, as acknowledge by Merlante, is the there is very little private sector R&D.

Rubbish. You haven't a clue about private sector R&D. The R&D goes on but the public generally only sees the end result.

So we’re sort of stuck with the universities to start with.

No. Private sector R&D often excludes universities because of parasitical intellectual rights agreements that give the universities unearned rights over any products. So would I develop a product with TSSG or some ghetto university with no expertise in telecoms? Take a guess at the answer.

Regards...jmcc