Compensation for driving 8-carriage DARTs

strassenwolf

Today's Indo wrote:

Dart drivers to boycott new trains in €20,000 pay row

DART drivers are preparing to boycott the new trains due to start testing next Monday in a bid to get a €20,000 bonanza for driving eight-carriage trains instead of the current six carriages.

The boycott of new rosters will not immediately affect services but could lead to drivers being suspended and an escalating dispute later this month.

Siptu and National Bus and Rail Union (NBRU) members are pressing ahead with their claim despite losing a Labour Court case which recommended that they operate the longer trains as part of normal changes to meet increased customer demand.

For nearly two decades the Dart drivers have considered themselves a premium grade ahead of mainline diesel drivers and up until 2000 they earned an extra 15pc bonus for operating the Dart services.

Four years ago they received a special €8,000 pay-off for allowing non-mainline drivers be recruited to operate DART trains. This bonanza has encouraged many drivers to seek €10,000 for each additional carriage hitched to a train.

Since then their pay has been consolidated, providing more than €48,000 a year or €922 for a five-shift week.

Irish Rail bosses are expected to face down any boycott threat armed with a very clear Labour Court recommendation.

In recent years the once-militant Dart drivers have softened and their last threats of industrial action never led to any strikes or stoppages.

Train drivers have been operating longer Arrow train services to Maynooth and Drogheda without special pay rises.

An Irish Rail spokesman said that the semi-state company had invested €176m in track upgrades and a further €80m in buying 40 new DART carriages.

He said that agreement on expanding services have been fully covered in the 2000 'New Deal' consolidated pay and productivity agreement.

This position was also upheld by the Labour Court recommendation two months ago, he added. Both unions have rejected the Labour Court recommendation but it remains unclear whether union leaders will have the resolve to back a full strike.

Industrial action by the 84 drivers could cripple the coastal rail service but Irish Rail chiefs are likely to face down any disruption threat confident that the unions are in a weak position.

Also they claim that the longer trains are part of normal services changes covered by the terms of the Sustaining Progress 'social partnership' deal.

This may tie Siptu's hands but the NBRU, which is not affiliated to the Irish Congress of Trades Unions, is not a party to the wage pact though its members take the agreed pay rises.

The roster boycott and €20,000 may not help SIPTU's current campaign to oppose privatisation and retain public transport witin a state company structure.

Gerald Flynn
Industrial Correspondent

Only E20,000. They mustn't have realised they'll have to drive these longer trains around BRAY HEAD. Omigod! Make that another 10 grand. :rolleyes:

Alun

So that'd make €68k for driving a bloody train? Who do they think they are, brain surgeons?

seamus

Feck this, I'm becoming a DART driver :eek:

Thomond Pk

Not on unless I get a job too

MarkoP11

Its a 20,000 lump sum, its a joke IE have themselves covered and all the other drivers drive 8 coach for less money with less safety equipment at faster speeds with just as many crushed in

Don't bother, don't even think about it there is provision for driverless operation across the DART fleet hopefully IE will have the guts to add the few missing pieces to make it work or hold the idea as a threat

bringitdown

That is a disgrace. I off to find a few concrete blocks and a bridge.

strassenwolf

I'm sure there is a certain amount of stress involved in driving these trains - people could throw themselves (or be pushed?) in front of one of them at any time. There are about 200 "people in front of a train" each year on the London underground.

I'd imagine when/if the interconnector (or metro) is built, the underground stations will have these perspex screens between the platform and the track to prevent anybody getting onto the line - like you see on the Jubilee line or the Stansted Express. At least I hope we have these.

That way the underground journey would probably be less stressful for the drivers than the journey overground.

Alun

I'm sure there is a certain amount of stress involved in driving these trains - people could throw themselves (or be pushed?) in front of one of them at any time. There are about 200 "people in front of a train" each year on the London underground.

I'm sure there is, but why is it €20,000 more stressfull to drive an 8-carriage Dart than a 6-carriage one??!!

MarkoP11

48k to drive a train, the Luas drivers have a much more accident prone job get paid a lot less somewhere in the 30-35k+ bracket from what I know

The length of the train has zero impact on the act of driving since it behaves the same regardless of the length and the stopping points on the platforms are the same now

No one complained when 6 coach trains started in 1994

BTW its takes only 18 weeks to train a DART driver, could be vacancies soon

bringitdown

strassenwolf wrote:

I'm sure there is a certain amount of stress involved in driving these trains - people could throw themselves (or be pushed?) in front of one of them at any time. There are about 200 "people in front of a train" each year on the London underground.

I'd imagine when/if the interconnector (or metro) is built, the underground stations will have these perspex screens between the platform and the track to prevent anybody getting onto the line - like you see on the Jubilee line or the Stansted Express. At least I hope we have these.

That way the underground journey would probably be less stressful for the drivers than the journey overground.

And precisely what has your point (notwithstanding it is a good one - drivers do suffer stressful working conditions at times) got to do with adding 2 carriages to the DART?

I wonder if there are significant changes to their work practices as a result - (however I don't think so) ... what merits this bonus (and I mean specifically on their basis for claiming it)? Nothing in my opinion.

Chalk

i came into work today and my pc's hard drive was increased from 6 to 8 gigs.

i told my boss what IT had doen so he immediately wrote a cheque for 2000eu for my stress at having to manage a bigger hard drive.

MarkoP11

No roster changes are involved with the move to 8 coaches, the timetable remains unchanged

The very drivers trying this on have in the past actually have driven 8 coach DART trains under test just as IE want to start doing. In fact some of them have driven 12 coach DART trains (6 coach unit dragging a failed 6 coach unit)

IE are right the unions are wrong and given all the other drivers agreed to operate 8 coach trains with no lump sum or pay increases other than those in the new deal agreement the unions case falls over, there is no safety issue. Its all been agreed. This is very very different to the Greystones mess of 5 years ago, Greystones was a smokescreen for the removal of the closed recruiting policy

Zaph0d

Why did CIE not go for fully automated DARTs? They are technically capable of this mode of operation, aren't they?

strassenwolf

bringitdown wrote:

And precisely what has your point...got to do with adding 2 carriages to the DART?

Probably nothing - I can't see why it should be any more difficult to drive an eight-carriage train than a six-carriage train (at least in terms of stress). I'd imagine they're just chancing their arm, but I should point out that I don't know the first thing about driving a train.

HelterSkelter

I wonder if they will give back €20,000 of their salary if they happen to be driving a 4 carriage train.

I am usually on the side of the worker but this is a bit of a píss take isn't it?

egan007

BULL****
I work for a computer company - as one of the guys mailed today

"We hare at ** want a similar bonus when we move from 4 CPU boxes to 8 CPU ones."

LegacyUser

just reading in the paper, dart drivers want an extra 10k a year for every extra cariage added, there's going to an additionl 2, so that's 20k more they want!!??

whats that all about, its not like they're physicaly draging them down the track.

couldn't help but laugh, article said dart drivers consider them selves elete, above ordinary mainland train drivers, funny 5hit.

the real cheeky thing is, is that they earn €48k a year, for pushing a few buttons! oh ye, and ocasionlay announcing why you're stuck on a bridge for ten min.

man-in-cognito

Makes me wanna puke.. in fact, yes, I think I am going to puke. Excuse me!

petes

48k a year :eek:

StonedParadoX

how much is that a week?

Tobias Greeshman

Id drive a train for 48k a year :cool:

prospect

I'd take a 50% cut to drive a train aswell.....

HelterSkelter

I think the 10k is a one off payment.

ven0m

Even though I am a member & shop steward of a trade union, I have ZERO sympathy for ANY union members within Irish Rail. This outrageous demand by them is right up their with 'extra money' for additional DART stops, additional money for the 'voice-announcements' for blind people & the ridiculous demands they in general make....

Today I am ashamed to be part of the trade union movement with this move by them.....


::: ven0mous :::

oq4v3ht0u76kf2

Seriously, 48k a year is like ~33k after tax which is about €630 per week - is that for real? **** college... I'm off to drive a DART.

AdMMM

For a job that a monkey could do, they are getting paid a lot!

dRNk SAnTA

or a computer. They did they same thing when line was extended to greystones. fire the lot of them.

Winters

Here's most of the reason why:

Unions = Government by the balls.

conspiracy1984

Lets see all the socialists defending this. Its an absolute joke,we still dont have proper late night darts because of the Dart drivers.

Clinical Waste

|.Murderer.| wrote:

For a job that a monkey could do, they are getting paid a lot!

but you have to smell like a monkey too.

And I agree that €48k buys alot of automation.

skywalker

HelterSkelter wrote:

I think the 10k is a one off payment.

That makes it ok?

HelterSkelter

skywalker wrote:

That makes it ok?

Definitely not, I think it is a scandal. I am usually one for taking the side of the workers but not on this occation.

I just thought it needed to be clarified though, a 10k one off payment is a big difference to an extra 10k a year.

drunkenfool

48k?? fookan jaysus, many degree holers would earn that much! thats outrageous, ive seen how you drive darts.... a stick in which you move forward(the more forward the faster it goes) a trained monkey could do it, hell you could train a coloney of ants to do it.
Well how can you consider giving them an increase, if they can even drive the things on TIME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Scum of the earth

John R

bringitdown wrote:

I wonder if there are significant changes to their work practices as a result - (however I don't think so) ... what merits this bonus (and I mean specifically on their basis for claiming it)? Nothing in my opinion.

A longer walk at each terminus from one cab to the other?

LegacyUser

sorry, must be a one off payment.

and it's 20k they're looking for, 10k for each carraige.

i'd love them to explain it to me, cause i'm lost....

HelterSkelter wrote:

Definitely not, I think it is a scandal. I am usually one for taking the side of the workers but not on this occation.

I just thought it needed to be clarified though, a 10k one off payment is a big difference to an extra 10k a year.

murphaph

John R wrote:

A longer walk at each terminus from one cab to the other?

Exactly. These pr!cks are taking the p!ss out of us. Sack the chancers and get Pavel and Gregor in from Poland to drive the trains, actually scratch that-plenty of paddies will work a DART for just shy of 50k a year!

is_that_so

Could take a leaf out of Ryanair's book and charge them €20,000 for training on 8 carriage DARTS.

Sarsfield

is_that_so wrote:

Could take a leaf out of Ryanair's book and charge them €20,000 for training on 8 carriage DARTS.

Excellent answer

murphaph

is_that_so wrote:

Could take a leaf out of Ryanair's book and charge them €20,000 for training on 8 carriage DARTS.

Now you're talkin! That'd teach 'em. Make 'em sell overpriced warm (cold) baguettes too

HelterSkelter

is_that_so wrote:

Could take a leaf out of Ryanair's book and charge them €20,000 for training on 8 carriage DARTS.

Hahaha, perfect solution!

HelterSkelter

Speaking of Ryanair, I bet these DART drivers get paid a lot more than the average commercial airline pilot.

MarkoP11

There is no change in the driving operation its the same, same stopping points, same braking points. When 6 coach trains arrived it i copped a postit note above the door unlock button with '6' written on it. So unless you look back its all the same.

Its the same trains as before.

THe primary function of the testing phase are

a) Prove the units can work in 8 coach mode (The original LHB units may be limited to 6 only unless modifications are made)
b) Prove the power system can take the load
c) Prove the electro magnetic interference output of a 8 coach train is still within limits and that having many 8 coach trains in the same area doesn't cause problems
d) Gain permission from the safety bodies for 8 coach operation

Would a pilot flying a indentical 737 ask for more based on the number of seats in the back, I think not

MT

Disgraceful behaviour by these unions.

If anyone of a socialist persuasion wonders why Irish voters have gone all cold on tax rises over the last decade - this sort of thing is the provides an answer.

With benchmarking and demands like this, a message is being sent out to the electorate that increases in investment in public services amounts to a fat pay increase for public sector workers with no commensurate productivity increase.

It may not be a fair representation but that's the signal that'll be sent out by this sort of debacle.

No wonder Ireland has went from being an economy with high taxes and an extensive state to tax cuts and privatisations a gogo.

Anyone hoping for future electoral support for continued investment in public transport had better hope these drivers are told where to shove their demands. Otherwise prepare yourself for cynical voters plumping for service cut backs and the car.

K!LL!@N

This kind of carry on sickens me.
It really does.

These guys get paid very well as it is.
In fact i don't think there's anyone in IE that gets paid poorly relevant to what they're doing.
Most would get paid more than in an equivalent role elsewhere.

The unions have such a stranglehold on IE, a stranglehold that needs to be loosened considerably.

These Dart drivers will threaten industrial action over the slightest thing.
They wouldn't allow new drivers come on board without compensation.
They have refused to operate much needed timetable changes.

And now this?
€20k to sit in the same cabin, in the same seat, with the same shift times and a few extra passengers?
What a load of crap!

I bet if you put them in cabin and didn't tell them how many carraiges they were pulling, they wouldn't know the difference.

It's disgraceful.
If i could i'd sack those not willing to accept the extra carraiges.
I'd go without the Dart for a month while they trained up new drivers, rather than pay these guys.

I can understand a review of payment if shifts change or if they have to work longer hours or whatever.
They're legitimate reasons.
There is no legitimate reason for demanding this payment.
None.

They need a wake up call.

Killian

dowlingm

Placing a tender to convert DART to automatic operation would be a start - apparently DART was designed for ATO originally.

K!LL!@N

dowlingm wrote:

Placing a tender to convert DART to automatic operation would be a start - apparently DART was designed for ATO originally.

Didn't know that.

I doubt it will happen though.
The unions certainly wouldn't allow it.
If they did, it'd only be because IE were paying the drivers the same wage to stay at home. :rolleyes:

Killian

MarkoP11

To quote P Cuffe the lead signalling engineer on the Dart project

Whilst Automatic Train Operation (ATO) permitting automatic station stopping and headway maintence has not been incorparated in the EMUs the ATP package has been designed to accept its future implementation quite easily

They went as far as writting a paper about it but I can't get a copy to see exactly how far they were willing to push the idea

The publicity which GEC (who provided the control equipment) released indicates the wiring and rack space is left aside for possible ATO, certain features are actually unavailable when driven in manual mode. The phrase "initial manual driving phase" is in the documentation, its GEC doing a PR job but it sounds very very seriuos

I can't see ATO anytime soon, it is still a major technical challenge but it is hidden in the background

And yes IE can make the drivers redundant if there job ceases to exist

Zaph0d

At the time of the DART project everything was judged by how many jobs were created as a result.

fiachs

MarkoP11 wrote:

I can't see ATO anytime soon, it is still a major technical challenge but it is hidden in the background

What sort of features?


Oh and as far as I'm aware, airline pilots are paid 100k +

John R

MarkoP11 wrote:

To quote P Cuffe the lead signalling engineer on the Dart project



They went as far as writting a paper about it but I can't get a copy to see exactly how far they were willing to push the idea

The publicity which GEC (who provided the control equipment) released indicates the wiring and rack space is left aside for possible ATO, certain features are actually unavailable when driven in manual mode. The phrase "initial manual driving phase" is in the documentation, its GEC doing a PR job but it sounds very very seriuos

I can't see ATO anytime soon, it is still a major technical challenge but it is hidden in the background

And yes IE can make the drivers redundant if there job ceases to exist

Even if implemented there would still be a requirement for a driver to open/close the doors and to deal with failures/emergences.

The Victoria line of the London Underground is only able to operate in ATO mode, it has no visual signals and manual operation is only used in emergencies and depot shunting and is limited to 10mph.
It was designed and built that way from new but every train still has a driver. In normal operation all they do is open/close the doors and push a start button to leave the station.

Capt'n Midnight

MarkoP11 wrote:

Would a pilot flying a indentical 737 ask for more based on the number of seats in the back, I think not

/OT
First 737-100/200 series had seating for 115 passengers (or 130 in high density)
The 737-900 stretch takes up to 189 passengers - the same as on the original four engined 707.

And the main rival to the 737 (before the takeover), the DC9 went from 90 seats in the Srs 10 to 187 seats in the MD-90-55.

I can see lots of public support for their plight :rolleyes:

Am sure there are transport departments in eastern europe worried by this, their drivers would leave en mass if offered that sort of money.