Phil Flynn Charged with Gun Possession

mike65

Ex provo, trade unionist and Government adviser Phil Flynn has unexpectedly become a casualty of the Northern bank raid, Garda have charged him with illegal possession of firearms comming out of the searches made in the wake of the raid.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0811/flynnp.html

Not sure who'll shuffle uneasily in thier seats most at this news.

Mike.

murphaph

BBC Newsline has just reported that Flynn has claimed the gun is in the form of an antique pen. Fcuk him anyway, an illegaly held firearm is an illegaly held firearm and he, as an (ex?) SFIRA member should know this. I'd say he was sick when they found it. Fair play to the CAB boyos.

hawkmoon269

Mike65 as a matter of interest did you even read the entire story before you posted it?

I am no SF'er but I know a stitch-up when I see one

hawkmoon269

murphaph wrote:

BBC Newsline has just reported that Flynn has claimed the gun is in the form of an antique pen. Fcuk him anyway, an illegaly held firearm is an illegaly held firearm and he, as an (ex?) SFIRA member should know this. I'd say he was sick when they found it. Fair play to the CAB boyos.

I'll tell you what, maybe we should just arrest anyone who has professed support for SF. :rolleyes:

hawkmoon269

mike65 wrote:

Not sure who'll shuffle uneasily in thier seats most at this news.

I know who'll benefit electorally and that's SF.

The electorate ain't that stupid.

sceptre

hawkmoon269 wrote:

I'll tell you what, maybe we should just arrest anyone who has professed support for SF. :rolleyes:

Only if they're in illegal possession of guns. And if someone is in illegal possession of a gun they don't have to be a member of or a supporter of SF (or any other particular group, even Mammy Murphy's Tea Drinking Club) now do they?

So, humour me and let me know why you know this is a stitchup (not "how", I know there's no how, just "why").

hawkmoon269

sceptre wrote:

Only if they're in illegal possession of guns. And if someone is in illegal possession of a gun they don't have to be a member of or a supporter of SF (or any other particular group, even Mammy Murphy's Tea Drinking Club) now do they?

So, humour me and let me know why you know this is a stitchup (not "how", I know there's no how, just "why").

Have you read the full article yes or no?

It was a TOY PEN. AN EXECUTIVE TOY.

extract from [url]www.breakingnews.ie:-[/url]

"A Garda spokesman said Mr Flynn would appear in court on a minor charge. The firearm has been described as a “pen gun”. It is understood the gun can fire a small gas cannister and is an ornament."


Ok, Sceptre, I'll 'humour' you.

The man gets accused in the media of

1. Being involved in laundering millions of pounds in Northern Bank notes

2. Going to Bulgaria to try to buy a bank so that he can launder billions of IRA money

3. Being part of a conspiracy to set up a state within a state.

After 7 months of the most rigourous investigation by the Criminal Assets Bureau, with no doubt millions of pounds of taxpayers money spent, and thousands of hours of Garda time, they make the astonishing finding that he was in possesion of a "pen gun" and low calibre ammunition. These charges will be held in, wait for it, the Dublin District Court.

Given that the "gun" that was found is most likely of less danger than your average air gun, I have no doubt that the Judge will rule something to the effect of "Mr Flynn, aren't you a bit old for kiddies toys, heres the Probation Act, and stick €50 in the poor box, no you've a few bob, make it €100.

There will be no mention in the court of

1. Laundering money in Cork

2. Burning money in peoples back yards

3. Bank sales in Bulgaria

4. States within States

5. The fact that 7 months after the discovery of "alleged Northern Bank notes" not one pound has been proven by forensic testing, that the money actually came from any illegal source, never mind from the NBR.

6. The fact that our Gardai cannot make a definitive forensic decision on the notes 7 months on, but when £60,000 of Northern Bank notes were found in an RUC sports club, Hugh Orde was able to defiinitively say within 2 hours, they came from the bank raid, and they were planted.

7. Why 7 months of the most rigourous investigation, not one penny of the Northern Bank raid has been discovered. Not one penny out of what, £26,000,000. (Oh yeah, the RA burnt it all)

8. Not one person has been brought in for questioning after the second week of the investigation.

If this is the best the CAB can do after 7 months, there should be some of them sacked.

They have ruined the mans career, and over what? A pop gun, that he was probably given on some corporate shindig by some leading member of BOS.

sceptre

hawkmoon269 wrote:

Have you read the full article yes or no?

It was a TOY PEN. AN EXECUTIVE TOY.

not that I enjoy being interrogated in capital letters for no particular reason but the article posted reads "The charges arose after detectives searched Mr Flynn's office in Dublin City Centre and found a pen gun and ammunition."

So, I'll have to go with yes. Not that you're being all that polite about it.

hawkmoon269

sceptre wrote:

not that I enjoy being interrogated in capital letters for no particular reason but the article posted reads "The charges arose after detectives searched Mr Flynn's office in Dublin City Centre and found a pen gun and ammunition."

So, I'll have to go with yes. Not that you're being all that polite about it.

Poor diddums can't engage in robust debate?

You rather patronisingly asked me to 'humour' you.

So spare me the faux indignation.

sceptre

Oh I see you added rather a lot of content to your post.

The two articles contradict each other obviously. One is misleading. Obviously I read the first one and as I've pointed out above, you're being pretty rude about it.

Nevertheless, I'll humour you and point out that what you've posted as a (possible) reason for the alleged stitchup is that and nothing more - a possible reason for an alleged stitchup. An allegation made by you, I might add so apart from lots of conjecture (which incidentally is only evidence in the mind of Lionel Hutz from The Simpsons) you've given me nothing. You've knocked out a list of reasons why you think the police and/or government would like to stitch him up (in your opinion), you've got a nice rant in there about public allegations and lack of formal charges, a tagline at the end about his life being ruined and while that's fine and dandy, you've steadfastly avoided answering the question about why you know (your word, not mine) it was a stitchup.

sceptre

hawkmoon269 wrote:

Poor diddums can't engage in robust debate?

Nice. If you'd tossed that at anyone else you'd have been banned by me for it.

Your post above doesn't contain much honest debate, as I've pointed out. You didn't bother addressing my question but still took a few hundred words to go off on a rant and avoid it. That wastes my time. Address the question or don't bother replying to my posts while pretending you did.

hawkmoon269

sceptre wrote:

Oh I see you added rather a lot of content to your post.

The two articles contradict each other obviously. One is misleading. Obviously I read the first one and as I've pointed out above, you're being pretty rude about it.

Nevertheless, I'll humour you and point out that what you've posted as a (possible) reason for the alleged stitchup is that and nothing more - a possible reason for an alleged stitchup. An allegation made by you, I might add so apart from lots of conjecture (which incidentally is only evidence in the mind of Lionel Hutz from The Simpsons) you've given me nothing. You've knocked out a list of reasons why you think the police and/or government would like to stitch him up (in your opinion), you've got a nice rant in there about public allegations and lack of formal charges, a tagline at the end about his life being ruined and while that's fine and dandy, you've steadfastly avoided answering the question about why you know (your word, not mine) it was a stitchup.

Your post once again is laced with sarcasm and expressed in a patronising manner, as though in imitation of a university professor talking down to not-too-bright first year.

But apparently, I'm the one being 'rude' here.

sceptre

hawkmoon269 wrote:

Your post once again is laced with sarcasm and expressed in a patronising manner, as though in imitation of a university professor talking down to not-too-bright first year.

Read it as a victim if you like. You've still got nothing but potentially unrelated conjecture & you're still avoiding the question posed.

hawkmoon269

sceptre wrote:

Read it as a victim if you like. You've still got nothing but potentially unrelated conjecture.

It's difficult to debate with someone so trusting of our wonderful government.

oscarBravo

hawkmoon269 wrote:

It's difficult to debate with someone so trusting of our wonderful government.

"I was caught out in a stupid knee-jerk reaction but I'm too stubborn to admit it so I'll keep trying to duck the subject I brought up."

hawkmoon269

oscarBravo wrote:

"I was caught out in a stupid knee-jerk reaction but I'm too stubborn to admit it so I'll keep trying to duck the subject I brought up."

"I'm sticking with my buddy Sceptre. The government is always right. That stuff about the Donegal Gardai never happened."

hawkmoon269

sceptre wrote:

You've still got nothing but potentially unrelated conjecture & you're still avoiding the question posed.

Didn't avoid anything dude. I provided plenty of analysis above.

What elements of it do you disagree with?

sceptre

hawkmoon269 wrote:

It's difficult to debate with someone so trusting of our wonderful government.

No idea where you got that notion. PM me examples if you like, it's nowt to do with the topic and it's pointless getting personal on my choice of trusted parties with nothing to back that up either.

Moving back to actual on-topic discussion, one of the articles referenced is misleading. The original article posted clearly states that a "pen gun and ammunition" was found, which could reasonably be read as a gun that would fire ammunition as the word is commonly used. Hence it's a reasonable assumption, based on the wording, that what RTE reported was that it was a gun that could potentially fire bullets (though the latter word was obviously not used).

The second report mentions that the thing is an ornament that can fire gas cannisters and is an ornament. Assuming that this is prohibited under the relevant acts, it's then an offence but rather a minor one in that if this report is correct it's more deadly than a pea shooter but rather less so than a Luger.

I suppose we'll find out whether RTE managed to jump the gun or not tomorrow.

Incidentally, with moderator hat on, I obviously don't have a problem with a new thread started on the allegations made against Phil Flynn in connection with the bank robbery, other allegations or insinuations of "connections". It might (or might not) be an interesting thread if someone bothered to start one. Might be far more interesting than dropping conjecture into the thread about a gun or gas powered pea shooter found in his office.

mike65

Interesting,

http://www.politics.ie/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7141

hawkmoon are you here under a diffeent name or did you just copy and paste?

As for the charge, well they decided it was worth pursuing maybe the "Powers That Be" reckon they could'nt get him on something better so this'll do for now?

Mike.

murphaph

mike65 wrote:

Interesting,

http://www.politics.ie/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7141

hawkmoon are you here under a diffeent name or did you just copy and paste?

It's a small cyberworld!

foxybrowne

Its seems that Mr. Mitchell McEunas, the M.P. for Grimloch and Scraggs, was arrested on a similiar charge some time back, and that was also an executive pen case.

Sparks

It does sounds a bit daft, but it's perfectly legal - those kind of bb gun toys are legally firearms in Ireland, every bit as much as a 9mm pistol would be, and need a license in exactly the same way.

BTW, are they sure it's a gas-powered BB gun in the shape of a pen and not one of these?

Sponge Bob

Gas powered weapons or Air power wepaons are 'firearms' in Ireland.

CS gas cans are included in the UK firearm act . I know one Irishwoman caught in Heathrow with her (legal in the US) mace can 20 years ago who used to get grief every time she entered the UK for years and yeares afterward, her being Irish with 'previous' it was no surprise .

I would personally consider a firearm to be something that makes a noise and generates heat as it ejects a projectile at a considerable velocity and where the projectile is capable of penetrating skin at 20m .

otherwise they are calling a pellet gun of some sort a firearm because it comes under the firearm act. Its not a ****ing firearm in my book.

Had it been a Glock with a large clip and some high velocity 9mm dum dums I'd say it was a "fair Cop" Phil

Zombrex

hawkmoon269 wrote:

Mike65 as a matter of interest did you even read the entire story before you posted it?

I am no SF'er but I know a stitch-up when I see one

Are you saying the Gardi planted a gas powered gun in his office to stitch him up?? On a minor fire-arms charge? He will probably get off with a fine ... hardly Donegal all over again :rolleyes:

The police were searching his office and found something that is illegal to own, and they charged him with possessing it, which is exactly what they are supposed to do. It isn't a major offense or anything, but the Guards have a job to do, and they did it.

What people should really be interested in is why they were searching his offices. From RTE ..

Mr Flynn has been under investigation by the CAB since it emerged that he had travelled to Bulgaria with the principal figure in the company at the centre of the garda investigation into money-laundering in the republican movement.

oscarBravo

Wicknight wrote:

What people should really be interested in is why they were searching his offices.

But dontcha know the Northern Bank job was orchestrated by the Dirty Tricks(TM) department of the PSNI just so the Gardaí could stitch up honest, hardworking Republicans for laundering money that was planted (for reasons that are not yet clear) in a PSNI toilet?

Rovi

Sparks wrote:

BTW, are they sure it's a gas-powered BB gun in the shape of a pen and not one of these?

<snip image>

The 'Pen Pistol' shown above is the only legal (depending on jurisdiction) weapon of this type that I know of. And it's only legal because it has to be folded into a 'pistol' shape before it can be fired. I don't see many Superintendents here licencing one of these.

Most pen guns are like this-

http://www.adrax.com/watsons/pengun.htm
Many tens of thousands of these were dropped on occupied Europe during WW2, for the use of resistance forces.
'James Bond' types allegedly use this sort of thing too. Allegedly.

More recently, the term 'pen gun' has become pretty much interchangeable with 'zip gun,' meaning a home-made, single shot, disguised/concealable weapon.
More here.
These are illegal pretty much everywhere.


Given the woeful lack of firearms knowledge in the media and the (probably deliberate) lack of detail in the Garda statement, who knows what sort of 'pen gun' this is. It could be anything from a handmade assassination tool to a biro with the insides removed for blowing spitballs across the office.
I'm sure we'll get more detail in due course.


Anyhow, possession of an unlicensed firearm is a very serious offence here, and under Irish law the term 'firearm' includes air/gas guns, BB guns, and crossbows.

.

rsynnott

I'm not seeing the controversy. The man is a criminal; he is in possesion of an unlicensed and possibly illegal weapon. Whether he was also involved in laundering money for terrorists is unresolved as yet, and not directly relevant.

hawkmoon269

rsynnott wrote:

The man is a criminalQUOTE]

I wasn't aware of your appointment as judge and jury....many congratulations.....

NewDubliner

hawkmoon269 wrote:

I wasn't aware of your appointment as judge and jury....many congratulations.....

Speaking of which, if there's a jury trial, will it be held in Dublin? Might be difficult to make up a jury that doesn't include any civil servants whose jobs are being sent down the country....

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

rsynnott

Hmm, he was caught with an unlicensed and probably illegal weapon, possesion of which is a crime. Obviously he's a saint.

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

rsynnott

ziggy67 wrote:

Yes, but he is innocent until proven guilty. You stated "he is a criminal" when he hasn't even been on trial.

Well, unless it was placed there by an unusually large magpie...

A Dub in Glasgo

rsynnott wrote:

Well, unless it was placed there by an unusually large magpie...

Ah yes, let us proclaim that everybody who the state decides to charge with a crime is guilty of said crime. Nice one :rolleyes:

Sand

Ah yes, let us proclaim that everybody who the state decides to charge with a crime is guilty of said crime. Nice one

Phil Flynn afaik accepts that this pen gun was in his possession last i heard. His own comment was that he couldnt believe he was getting charged over it, that he thought it was a joke, that he had this pen gun for years. The only doubt in the case is if the pen gun is covered as an illegal firearm. Seems the powers that be (Gardai and the DPP) are confident it is, otherwise it wouldnt be going to trial.

So, assuming the Gardai and the DPP know an illegal firearm when they see one - and they should have plenty of practise given all the arms dumps Phils old mates have left all over our country - its open and shut mlud. A formality.

And anyway, the guys provo mates are hardly character references when it comes to crinimal and subversive activity.

A Dub in Glasgo

Sand wrote:

Phil Flynn afaik accepts that this pen gun was in his possession last i heard.

He has pleaded guilty then?

His own comment was that he couldnt believe he was getting charged over it, that he thought it was a joke, that he had this pen gun for years.

Seems to be a joke alright or is this a political charge?

The only doubt in the case is if the pen gun is covered as an illegal firearm. Seems the powers that be (Gardai and the DPP) are confident it is, otherwise it wouldnt be going to trial.

That is one way of looking at it but considering hundreds of thousands of people each year are not charged with offences that are illegal, it seems that this is merely a political charge

So, assuming the Gardai and the DPP know an illegal firearm when they see one - and they should have plenty of practise given all the arms dumps Phils old mates have left all over our country -

So, you actually know that the Gardai involved were practicing their firearm skills by investigating IRA arms dumps years ago? How did you come by this information? When was the last IRA arms dump found?

its open and shut mlud. A formality.

Ahh... another one :rolleyes:

And anyway, the guys provo mates are hardly character references when it comes to crinimal and subversive activity.

Which means what exactly?

oscarBravo

What's a political charge?

hawkmoon269

A Dub in Glasgow, why bother even debating with people who have already decided that he is guilty?

A Dub in Glasgo

oscarBravo wrote:

What's a political charge?

It is when somebody is charged with an offence when the the decision to charge is politically motiviated. It is akin to 2 people being caught commiting an offence (speeding for example), one gets off with a warning and the other gets charged with the speeding offence. If the 2nd person was charged because it was politically expedient to charge the person, the whole thing becomes politically motivated.

Of course, you knew all this

rsynnott

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

That is one way of looking at it but considering hundreds of thousands of people each year are not charged with offences that are illegal, it seems that this is merely a political charge

You're talking like posessing an illegal weapon designed to be concealed is a minor offence, like speeding.

A Dub in Glasgo

rsynnott wrote:

You're talking like posessing an illegal weapon designed to be concealed is a minor offence, like speeding.

I am talking about illegal activity, you are talking about grading it

rsynnott

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

I am talking about illegal activity, you are talking about grading it

The fact is that many thousands of people get away with minor offences like speeding, jaywalking, copyright theft, and so on every year. There's only one form of pen-gun, it seems, which it is even legal to possess in this country with a license. If it's not that one, he's guilty of possesion of an illegal weapon. It is not at all the same sort of thing as speeding.

oscarBravo

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

It is when somebody is charged with an offence when the the decision to charge is politically motiviated. It is akin to 2 people being caught commiting an offence (speeding for example), one gets off with a warning and the other gets charged with the speeding offence. If the 2nd person was charged because it was politically expedient to charge the person, the whole thing becomes politically motivated.

Given that the decision to press charges is made by the Director of Public Prosecutions, can I take it that you're directly accusing the DPP of political motivation?

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Of course, you knew all this

Hey, I could have jumped to a conclusion based on an uninformed assumption as to what I thought you might have meant. I chose to ask for clarification instead. Apologies for any offence caused.

hawkmoon269

oscarBravo wrote:

Given that the decision to press charges is made by the Director of Public Prosecutions, can I take it that you're directly accusing the DPP of political motivation? .

Interesting to note the misrepresentation and, frankly, online bullying tactics directed at anyone who challenges the State...

On a similar note, earlier in the thread 3 people mispresented what I was saying.

I politely recommend that you read the TWO highly critical reports issued in relation to the Donegal Gardai, I also politely recommend that you consider incidents in the very recent past when the DPP has withdrawn its evidence/case without explanation.

hawkmoon269

I would also like to point out that I am not a SF supporter.

Actually I was suspended from this forum for a week a while back for saying something nasty about Gerry Adams.

rsynnott

hawkmoon269 wrote:

Interesting to note the misrepresentation and, frankly, online bullying tactics directed at anyone who challenges the State...

hawkmoon269 wrote:

I would also like to point out that I am not a SF supporter.

Just as well, really; it would be ironic if an SF-y person was more worried about the oppressive state they want NI to join than the oppressive state they want it to leave

So why are you so worried about this? The man has apparently admitted to possessing the thing; he will presumably be prosecuted as such. That is as it should be. It is entirely normal to prosecute people who admit to this sort of crime.

oscarBravo

hawkmoon269 wrote:

Interesting to note the misrepresentation and, frankly, online bullying tactics directed at anyone who challenges the State...

Whom did I misrepresent, and how? I just asked a question. And - seriously - bullying??

hawkmoon269 wrote:

I politely recommend that you read the TWO highly critical reports issued in relation to the Donegal Gardai, I also politely recommend that you consider incidents in the very recent past when the DPP has withdrawn its evidence/case without explanation.

I'm confused. Are you insinuating that the DPP is politically motivated? Apologies if the question is hurtful or offensive in any way.

hawkmoon269

[QUOTE=oscarBravo Are you insinuating that the DPP is politically motivated? Apologies if the question is hurtful or offensive in any way.[/QUOTE]

Earlier in the thread, three people misrepresented what I was saying, tried to put me in a corner, possibly to suit their anti-SF agenda, I don't know.

I am a right wing libertarian, incidentally, and I despise the socialist economics of the likes of SF. But that's not even the point, I shouldn't even have to say that to be honest. As a libertarian I tend to be suspicous of government.

Ergo, I do not align myself with those who would seemingly pre-judge every issue in terms of 'the State is always right, cos, hey, the DPP couldn't possibly be imperfect, could they'?

rsynnott

Ah, the offending item doesn't seem to be an illegal weapon as such; simply a weapon for which licences aren't customarily issued. He's being charged with possesion without licesce.

hawkmoon269 wrote:

a right wing libertarian,

*hisses*

hawkmoon269 wrote:

Ergo, I do not align myself with those who would seemingly pre-judge every issue in terms of 'the State is always right, cos, hey, the DPP couldn't possibly be imperfect, could they'?

The DPP is behaving correctly. It is charging a someone who broke the law with a crime. That's what it's FOR. What would you prefer it do?

hawkmoon269

oscarBravo wrote:

Are you insinuating that the DPP is politically motivated?

Are you insinuating that such an opinion would be, (oh, horror of horrors!), anti-establishment, and therefore, unacceptable?

hawkmoon269

rsynnott wrote:

Ah, the offending item doesn't seem to be an illegal weapon as such; simply a weapon for which licences aren't customarily issued. He's being charged with possesion without licesce.

In that case I hope his wicked soul rots in hell! The death penalty is clearly insufficient for such an horrendous crime against humanity!