Misleading gantry signage on the M50

MT

I am sure others have noticed the flaws in the gantry signs on the newest stretch of the M50. As the NRA have a comment facility on their website I thought I’d compile a few points, backed up by photographs, and send it in. This has a cumbersome layout as only the full ‘address’ of each pic will seemingly work on the comment box. Furthermore the French site doesn’t allow linking to an individual pic.

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To the NRA,

Having searched the internet for examples of gantry signage in Europe I came across these two sites:

www.autosnelwegen.nl

http://franceautoroutes.free.fr

For comparison with M50 signage I’ve used pictures from this UK site: www.sabre-roads.org.uk

The first of the European sites provides pictures of “motorway” signage in the Netherlands with the second showing examples from France. A comparison between the signage used in these two countries and that erected on the last section of the M50 demonstrates clear inadequacies in the design of the new gantries in Ireland.

The picture (click to enlarge) on the top right of http://www.autosnelwegen.nl/asw/knooppunt.htm highlights the best way to sign a number of lanes – all on the one carriageway – leading to the same destination. One large sign covers all three lanes with a single set of directions. The three lane arrows on the one sign reinforce the fact that all three lanes lead in the direction of the information displayed above. This contrasts with the needlessly confusing duplication of the same information for each lane displayed on two identical gantry signs as the Northbound M11 splits from the M50.

The Dutch gantry also highlights a superior method of signing a slip road leaving the main carriageway. The sign for the A9 has been erected over the emergency lane. This placement emphasises the need to leave the carriageway at the next junction – you can’t drive in the hard shoulder! Such a practice appears to be common throughout most of Europe – here is evidence from France, http://franceautoroutes.free.fr/autoroutes.php?route=a6&page=079 These layouts are at odds with the misleading gantry on the M50 shown here, www.sabre-roads.org.uk/gallery/displayimage.php?album=150&pos=22 – this layout not only provides for confusion but also encourages dangerous lane usage and could lead to a reduction in the motorway’s capacity along this stretch. The sign seems to indicate that motorists should pull out into the overtaking lane to avoid leaving the motorway 1km ahead for junction 13 and the R113. This could lead to an accident and may also see long tale backs in the outside lane as cars queue to ‘stay’ on the M50.

The following two pictures show a further comparison between another misleading gantry on the M50 and the correct version from France: www.sabre-roads.org.uk/gallery/displayimage.php?album=150&pos=23 and (bottom of page) http://franceautoroutes.free.fr/autoroutes.php?route=a10&page=066 The Irish gantry appears to signal a split in the carriageway ahead. The signs seem to indicate that motorists on the inside lane will leave the motorway for junction 14 and the N31 to Dun Laoghaire. This is of course entirely misleading as there is no split ahead and instead a slip road leaves the motorway for j14. The French gantry demonstrates the correct method of signing an approaching slip road. One sign covers both lanes on the carriageway and clearly indicates that each continues on the A10 to Paris. The sign directing traffic to the slip road and the A83 is placed off the main carriageway to avoid any confusion.

In this respect, the half-gantries recently erected on the M50 are equally misleading. This example, http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/gallery/displayimage.php?album=150&pos=21 gives the false impression that the inside lane will split from the carriageway, taking you to j13 and the R113. The positioning of this sign is as problematic and as potentially dangerous as those failing to properly indicate slip roads on full gantries. Where half-gantries are used in France to provide directions for an approaching slip road the signage they display sits over the emergency lane. http://franceautoroutes.free.fr/autoroutes.php?route=a75&page=025 leaves no doubt that drivers must leave the main carriageway to access junction 42. As with full gantries this policy avoids the misleading situation that now exists on the M50 where signage prior to a number of junctions appears ambiguous – unfamiliar motorists will find themselves wondering if a split in the carriageway is approaching. Needless and dangerous lane changing will likely be the consequence.

In a similar vein, this half-gantry for j14 is also misleading, www.sabre-roads.org.uk/gallery/displayimage.php?album=150&pos=24 Again it appears that a split in the carriageway is approaching with drivers in the inside lane being taken to the N31 while those wishing to stay on the M50 must pull out into the overtaking lane. These pictures demonstrate the much less misleading approach common throughout France, http://franceautoroutes.free.fr/autoroutes.php?route=a71&page=021

Where the carriageway will actually divide in an approaching split each set of lanes leading in a different direction should be provided with a separate sign. The two pictures (click to enlarge) at the top of this page, http://www.autosnelwegen.nl/asw/aansluitingen.htm highlight the difference between signage for an approaching slip road (top left) and for an approaching split (top right). Once again, there is simply one sign for each set of destinations and no duplication for individual lanes.

Another characteristic that Dutch signage has in its favour is a greater ratio of background space to that taken up by text. The signs are less crowded than those found on the M50 and so are much easier to comprehend when travelling at motorway speeds. As Irish signs are bilingual surely they need to be that much larger to ensure information doesn’t begin to resemble an impenetrable wall of text.

However, had the layout found throughout most of the rest of Europe and beyond been implemented on the M50 there would have been much greater space per sign without any need for enlargement. With wider signs covering both lanes of the main carriageway and a second sign off-set over the emergency lane, the area available for information would have been considerably greater.
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Talk about pointing out the bleedin’ obvious. How much do those responsible for signage in the NRA get paid? Indeed, from the looks of this latest effort you’d wonder if there’s even a team to oversee sign design at all.

It took me – and I’m not even a road/sign engineer – less than thirty minutes to flick through a few sites on the internet and find examples of best international practice. Indeed, it’s not even a case of best international practice as there really is only one correct method of displaying gantry signs. It seems that every other country has managed to put in place a system that’s hardly rocket science when it comes to research and yet the vast sums expended by the NRA come up with this shambles.

Could they not have looked around – I presume NRA offices are wired into the internet? The Americans and Germans have been erecting gantries for much of the last half-century – even Sadam Hussein got them right in Irag! And, yet, while the world and his uncle seems to have concluded that 2 plus 2 is 4, and only 4, Ireland has come up with 3.

Is it any wonder so much of the signage across the Republic is chaotic when the supposedly cutting-edge NRA with its seemingly bottomless pit of taxpayer’s money can’t even erect signage on a par with a third world country (just take a look at the excellent gantries throughout much of Asia). And all this on the nation’s premier road – what an advertisement for forward thinking in Ireland!

But then again this is the body that erected these gems:

http://www.castlebar.ie/photos/pj/MayosignsApr04web/dscf0049.html

http://www.castlebar.ie/photos/pj/MayosignsApr04web/dscf0045.html

DubTony

MT wrote:

In this respect, the half-gantries recently erected on the M50 are equally misleading. This example, http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/galle...lbum=150&pos=21 gives the false impression that the inside lane will split from the carriageway, taking you to j13 and the R113. The positioning of this sign is as problematic and as potentially dangerous as those failing to properly indicate slip roads on full gantries.

Didn't read your full post as this topic has been done to death on the boards. The gantry sign above is an example of the best signs on the M50. The overheads that indicate people should be in a particluar lane for a particular place are much more confusing.

It doesn't really matter that much if the gantry implies that the road peels away. People just need to be in the left lane to see what will happen and follow the yellow line off the motorway. As for indicating to exit the motorway? HA! 300 - 200 - 100 .................... those posts and signs aren't worth the money it cost to put them up as the vast majority of drivers haven't a clue when to start indicating to exit and most seem to leave it somewhere between the (obviously non-existent) ten metre post and the exit itself.

The gantry sign you mention is a huge plus on the M50, my experince has been that most drivers hogging the overtaking lane actually pull in when they see the sign to make the exit instead of the mad last minute dash. Having said that, I firmly believe that the last minute dash has little to do with signage and more to do with an "I wanna be in front" mentality.

edit: ooops. Mis-read your post re: indicating. But what the hell?

MT

DubTony wrote:

Didn't read your full post as this topic has been done to death on the boards. The gantry sign above is an example of the best signs on the M50. The overheads that indicate people should be in a particluar lane for a particular place are much more confusing.

I’ve just taken a flick through the M50 thread and seen the discussion some time ago on the gantries. But anyway, back to this thread. That gantry you mention is clearly misleading. Despite the diagonal arrow – indeed, even with it as many split signs in Europe have these – the position of the sign over the inside lane indicates an approaching split in the carriageway. The general rule internationally seems to be that when using gantries a sign over a particular lane applies to that very lane. This is why almost everywhere else, gantry signs indicating the approach of a slip road are off-set over the emergency lane. This logically makes clear that none of the lanes on the motorway will leave the carriageway. This clear reasoning has been lost on the NRA.

The other reason why the international standard is to off-set signs warning of a slip is to ensure they cannot be confused with signs indicating an approaching split in the carriageway. Just look at these two photos that I linked to above:

http://www.autosnelwegen.nl/asw/aansluitingen.htm (the two pics at the top of the page)

The gantry on the right signs an approaching split in the carriageway: the gantry on the left an approaching slip road. Such a practice is common throughout Europe and beyond. Yet, had the Dutch employed the fuzzy logic of the NRA both of these two crucially different gantries would have had the same layout. Motorists wouldn’t be sure of whether they had to look out for a split or a slip road.

The new gantries on the M50 would almost be the equivalent of having the slip road destinations and those of the main carriageway all posted on the straight-on arrow on one of those road side fork signs. That’s how misleading they are - they give no indication that you must actually leave the carriageway at some point.

That half-gantry should have either looked like these, http://franceautoroutes.free.fr/autoroutes.php?route=a75&page=025 with the J13 sign over the emergency lane, or these http://franceautoroutes.free.fr/autoroutes.php?route=a71&page=021 with the J13 sign again over the emergency lane plus a wide two lane sign over the carriageway clearly indicating that both lanes go straight on and don’t branch off.

DubTony wrote:

The gantry sign you mention is a huge plus on the M50, my experince has been that most drivers hogging the overtaking lane actually pull in when they see the sign to make the exit instead of the mad last minute dash.

I’m all for gantries. But they are only a plus if they aren’t misleading – like those in the Netherlands and France and just about everywhere else. These, however, are clearly a botch through what must have been the result of next to no research whatsoever – it took me less than half an hour and the NRA has had all day every day for goodness knows how long!

And most drivers will also pull in in preparation for the junction with proper gantries. The difference is, no one will needlessly pull out into the overtaking lane to avoid the junction. Then there’s the decreased legibility of the signage due to cramming all info into too few signs in the wrong place – again, decision making isn’t helped.

cal29

Honestly think you need to get out more

Unless somebody was terminally stupid the signs are very straight forward

the first one is a direction as to what lane you should be in for in this case dundrum it also clearly has a big 1km and a J13 indicating that junction 13 is in one kilometre and it will take you to dundrum and it is on the left hand side

what do you want some one to hold your hand


I honestly cant see what the big complaint is about the gantry signs

Yes the signs at the sid e tend to be useless but the over head gantry signs are very straight forward

I can gaurantee if the signs were over the hard shoulder some one else would be complaining that it is confusing as people are being directed into the hard shoulder

Not to mention the people who would probably drive in the hard shoulder because the sign was over it

I am no fan of the NRA but honestly I dont think the gantry signage is confusing and your complaints are just for the sake of it

I mean the M50 is only 2 lanes how confusing could it be

Alun

Ok, so let's just assume that you wanted to signpost a situation where you had a road with two lanes, and one of them split off one way and the other another way. How would you do that? I suspect that you'd have a sign very much like the one shown in that example. Now, how do you make a distinction between that situation and one where two lanes carry straight on, but you have a road splitting off onto an off ramp then? Or do you just leave it up to guesswork on behalf of the motorist.

The fact is that the NRA are making it up as they go along without any regard to best practice in other countries who have been doing this a damn sight longer than the Irish have. Personally, as someone who has been driving for 30+ years, most of that outside Ireland, I found these signs contradictory. On the one hand I knew that what they were telling me wasn't right, but on the other hand I knew what to expect, so effectively I ignored them. That's not a very good basis in which to design road signs is it? Still, in a country where, for example, roadworks signs such as road narrows, or lane closures rarely have any relationship with reality, that's hardly surprising.

MT

cal29 wrote:

Honestly think you need to get out more

Direct that comment to the NRA. Had they actually got out more – or even onto the internet – they’d have known that there’s a right and a wrong way to display gantries. The world and his uncle got it right – the NRA got it wrong.

cal29 wrote:

Unless somebody was terminally stupid the signs are very straight forward

Not so. As myself and Alun have pointed out, the arrangements on the these gantries make no distinction between an approaching split and the need to leave the motorway on a slip road. What if the two scenarios follow one after the other on some future project – how will the NRA differentiate as they’ve set a precedent of not doing so here.

As I’ve said, this botch would be akin to putting all directions – slip road and main carriageway – on the straight-on arrow on a fork sign. With these gantries they haven’t indicated that there’s actually an approaching fork where you’ll need to pull off the motorway.

cal29 wrote:

I can gaurantee if the signs were over the hard shoulder some one else would be complaining that it is confusing as people are being directed into the hard shoulder

Not to mention the people who would probably drive in the hard shoulder because the sign was over it

But as every country, bar Ireland, has found through either research or experience there is no other way of doing it properly. The alternative of not placing slip road signs off the main carriageway – precisely because none of the lanes will become a slip road – is to implement the botch the NRA have made of the M50 gantries. By in effect moving the slip road sign out over a lane on the carriageway you make no difference between an approaching split or slip road.

The consequences are threefold:
1) unfamiliar drivers assume a split and suddenly pull out into the overtaking lane – dangerous.
2) unfamiliar drivers wishing to stay on the M50 will hog the overtaking lane at this point – inefficient use of carriageway.
3) ambiguous signing teaches drivers to be unprepared for either split/slip road until the last moment – inculcates more bad habits resulting in further inefficiency and congestion.

The whole point of signing is advanced warning – the NRA have turned this on its head with their ‘wait and see’ signs.

Which is more dangerous – someone pulling into a hard shoulder that will open onto a slip road or an unsettled driver pulling suddenly and at a slower speed into the overtaking lane with faster vehicles approaching from behind – ever heard of a pile up. Neither’s ideal but the former is by far the lessor of two evils.

cal29 wrote:

I mean the M50 is only 2 lanes how confusing could it be

So are most autoroutes in France, yet they manage to get the signage right. Indeed, your attitude bears all the hallmarks of the ‘do rightly’ approach that has so typified road signage throughout Ireland. The lack of forethought and precision is entirely the reason the system is frequently derided as amongst the worst in the developed world. And that’s no doubt because far too many ‘planners’ decided that it was only a …….. enter any road or junction you can care to think of.

No, I’d suggest you should get out more – maybe take a drive through Europe sometime.

DubTony

AH FFS. ENOUGH!!!!!

BrianD

In fairness, while the gantries are welcome the signage is dreadful, confusing and flies in the face of the rules of the road. There is so much duplicated information on these signs that they are a joke. They should have gone on a junket to the UK and looked at a few there.

icdg

And yet with all these overhead signs on the new section of the M50, there is none at Junction 9 southbound, where there are five lanes accross. One is needed very badly there...

dmeehan

what are the gantries like comming from bray on the M11, at the M50/M11 junction?

DubTony

BrianD

This is a great example of how bad the signage is.

1) This is on the N11. There is no Exit 17 on the M11.
2) The panels are duplicated. Why? There is a hell of a lot of info for a driver approaching the sign at 100 (or is 120KPH) The second and third panels from the left should be one panel.
3) The use of the ferry icons are misleading as there is no disstinction between Dublin Port and Dun Laoghaire. Image the poor tourist coming up from Wexford wondering which of the three signs he should follow!!
3) Even worse is the half gantry further up the road that again has two identical panels with arrows pointing different directions.

Gantries are great and there should be more of them on N and M roads but they way the information is presented to the motorist is crass and dangerous and flies in the face of best international practice.

jd

Has anybody got a reply from the NRA after making a comment on the site?

jd

HelterSkelter

cal29 wrote:

Honestly think you need to get out more

Unless somebody was terminally stupid the signs are very straight forward

the first one is a direction as to what lane you should be in for in this case dundrum it also clearly has a big 1km and a J13 indicating that junction 13 is in one kilometre and it will take you to dundrum and it is on the left hand side

what do you want some one to hold your hand

I have to disagree with you, that sign you refer to (http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/gallery/displayimage.php?album=150&pos=22) looks to me as if you have to move in the overtaking (outside) lane i order to remain on the M50. It seems if you stay in the inside (left) lane you will be forced to leave the motorway for Dundrum. I am not the only one who thinks this. While driving on the M50 I saw lots of cars pull into the overtaking lane after seeing this sign only to pull back into the driving lane after passing the junction.

RuggieBear

DubTony wrote:

I know those signs very well :rolleyes: . It's an absolute killer...The ammount of people who have to jump into the right lanes for the M50 at the last minute as a consequence of those signs is unbelievable. It's just confusing enough to be a problem. There will be a serious accident there soon enough.

Going South bound at the same stretch has the same problem with the gantrys....3 lanes heading south, on the sign the left lane says North Bray, centre and right say wexford or whatever. Problem is that NorthBray lane actually becomes the exit to North Bray and nobody realises that, so all of a sudden people are moving into the other lanes to stay on the motor way. I've seen so many near misses there already and the bloody road isn't open that long.

probably haven't explained the issue to well but if you've used it i reckon you'll understand...i hope

Alun

BrianD wrote:

3) The use of the ferry icons are misleading as there is no disstinction between Dublin Port and Dun Laoghaire. Image the poor tourist coming up from Wexford wondering which of the three signs he should follow!!

If you look very carefully you'll see that the ferry on the M11 sign has two cars in it, whilst the ferry on the M50 signs has a car and a truck in it. It does say Dun Laoghaire on the M11 sign, so I imagine you're supposed to determine that by a process of elimination Dublin Port is via the M50 (which it will be for lorries once the Port Tunnel is opened) whereas for cars going to Dublin Port they should be going via the M11 as well. Confused? I am and I live here, pity the poor tourist, as you say!

Also, I agree that the right hand two gantries should be one sign instead of two, and instead of all that N1-N2-N3... nonsense it should just say "All other routes" and be done with it.

icdg

Although these signs are on the M11... you have to take the slip road off to stay on the M11. Go straight on and the road becomes the M50. Strange design - quite similar to the N20/N21 junction in Limerick where you have to turn off to stay on the N20. I would have thought most people would be going straight on towards town, but anyways.

Victor

So it should be something like this?

[edit]pic improved

Alun

Victor wrote:

So it should be something like this?

It's getting there. Not sure what the red squiggles are on the Dun Laoghaire sign though. I'd make the big sign something like "M50 All Other Routes" with the ferry sign and the airport sign the small size you made them, although it might make sense to add some text under the ferry sign to make it clear what they really mean (if they even know themselves!). The M11 sign should also have N11 in brackets, seeing as the M11 only carries on for a few hundred metres after this sign, and should also have Dublin on it.

loyatemu

all over the city the standard for ferry signs is:
Dublin Port - just a picture of a ferry
Dun Laoghaire - picture of a ferry with "Dun Laoghaire" written beside it
(the pictures are slightly different with no truck on the DL one, but how're tourists supposed to know this?)

I mean, how much trouble would it be to put "Dublin Port" on the signs as well?

wrt to the "north bray" signs - those signs are correct, they indicate that the lane peels off for bray. its all the other signs on the M50 that are misleading. I too have seen some near misses at the bray junction but its because people are either not reading the sign or have been confused by the previous signs.

DubTony

Victor wrote:

So it should be something like this?

Hey, who gave you permission to do that to my photograph?

I wonder how long it'll take for someone to complain about the font :rolleyes:

DubTony

loyatemu wrote:

wrt to the "north bray" signs - those signs are correct, they indicate that the lane peels off for bray. its all the other signs on the M50 that are misleading. I too have seen some near misses at the bray junction but its because people are either not reading the sign or have been confused by the previous signs.

TA-DA

Alun

Yes, these are OK, although why they couldn't have made the two M11 signs, with identical information on each, into one wide sign I don't know. Also, I'm a bit puzzled as to why Wexford, which is further away than Wicklow, is shown first? Alphabetical order perhaps?

jlang

Wexford is the town at the end of the N11 route.

Victor

Pic improved.

DubTony wrote:

Hey, who gave you permission to do that to my photograph?

Call it parody?

Alun

Victor wrote:

Pic improved.Call it parody?

Looks the same to me?

Victor

Alun wrote:

Looks the same to me?

:mad: I thought I'd fixed it.

murphaph

We all know the M50 gantry signage is sh!te, but just look at this very clear example from COUNTY CLARE!! What gives NRA???? Muppets!! You can do it on the Western Seaboard but make a dog's dinner of it on one of the busiest roads in Ireland. NRA can oversee correct gabtry signage

murphaph

jlang wrote:

Wexford is the town at the end of the N11 route.

Isn't that Rosslare? (small as it is, it's still a major ferryport)

RuggieBear

murphaph wrote:

Isn't that Rosslare? (small as it is, it's still a major ferryport)

there is probably another route number between wexford and rosslare harbour

murphaph

RuggieBear wrote:

there is probably another route number between wexford and rosslare harbour

You're absolutely correct (meaning I'm absolutely incorrect!). The N25 runs between Wexford and Rosslare Harbour. The UK system allows road number multiplexing. Ours doesn't but if it did this stretch would be a prime candidate if ever I saw one.

strassenwolf

The N25 (Cork-Waterford-New Ross-Wexford-Rosslare).

The N25 and N11 meet in Wexford. You'd have thought the lower number would take over from that junction, but there it is.

HelterSkelter

murphaph wrote:

We all know the M50 gantry signage is sh!te, but just look at this very clear example from COUNTY CLARE!! What gives NRA???? Muppets!! You can do it on the Western Seaboard but make a dog's dinner of it on one of the busiest roads in Ireland. NRA can oversee correct gabtry signage

Yeah, that is much better. Signs should be like this on M50. Only improvements I would make is to have the Galway/Ennis part of the sign blue and the Shannon part in white. I was driving in Spain last week and this is how all the overhead signs were.

murphaph

HelterSkelter wrote:

Yeah, that is much better. Signs should be like this on M50. Only improvements I would make is to have the Galway/Ennis part of the sign blue and the Shannon part in white. I was driving in Spain last week and this is how all the overhead signs were.

No, the sign is perfect as it is. The N18 (road the gantry is over) & N19 (next exit) are both national routes and should be signed on green backgrounds, as they are.

Traditionally motorway signage is blue, even when the sign refers to a non-motorway road. It's a quirk of motorway signage that the UK thought was best to introduce because of the higher driving speeds. It's a matter of opinion as to whether or not it's a good idea.

maxheadroom

HelterSkelter wrote:

Only improvements I would make is to have the Galway/Ennis part of the sign blue and the Shannon part in white. I was driving in Spain last week and this is how all the overhead signs were.

Why? The roads are all 'N' routes which generally have a green background to their signs? I'd agree if it was galway / ennis by motorway or shannon by 'R' road, but it isn't...

Victor

murphaph wrote:

You're absolutely correct (meaning I'm absolutely incorrect!). The N25 runs between Wexford and Rosslare Harbour. The UK system allows road number multiplexing. Ours doesn't but if it did this stretch would be a prime candidate if ever I saw one.

About the only place it is really used, outside town centres is on the N20-N21 from Limerick to Patrickswell.

Andrew Duffy

The N13 and N14 multiplex along several miles of dual carriageway approaching Letterkenny from the East.

HelterSkelter

I didn't mean that particular sign should be blue, I meant if that type of sign was to be used on a motorway then it should be blue. As for the exit sign being white, well when I was driving in Spain they has all the signs for slip roads leaving the motorway in white, it made it very obvious if you were in that lane you were leaving the motorway.

murphaph

HelterSkelter wrote:

I didn't mean that particular sign should be blue, I meant if that type of sign was to be used on a motorway then it should be blue. As for the exit sign being white, well when I was driving in Spain they has all the signs for slip roads leaving the motorway in white, it made it very obvious if you were in that lane you were leaving the motorway.

But what if the next exit is to another motorway?

HelterSkelter

Ok, how about having the section of the sign for the next exit in the normal colour for that road. For example, if it is a national road use green, a mororway use blue, a secondary road use white.

strassenwolf

Does anyone know why the gantry signs approaching the Leopardstown exit heading north indicate junction 13, rather than junction 14.

If you exit the motorway at that point, you have the option to use junction 14 to access Leopardstown and Sandyford. You can also continue straight on, parallel to the motorway, to junction 13, to access Ballinteer and Dundrum.

I realise there is no exit from the northbound carriageway at junction 13. But should the signs not indicate junction 13/14, or something like that.

It may just be a bit confusing for people if they've just passed through junction 15 (Carrickmines) and suddenly they are at junction 13 (according to the signs).

murphaph

HelterSkelter wrote:

Ok, how about having the section of the sign for the next exit in the normal colour for that road. For example, if it is a national road use green, a mororway use blue, a secondary road use white.

Ummm, but that's how that sign on the N18 is. It's got dashed lines splitting the sign into three lanes, two of which are the main carriageway N18 and the other is clearly the next exit for the N19 because it has an arrow veering to the left. If it were a regional road then it should be a white panel or white patched on the main sign.

I actually agree that this should also come into play on m-ways but we folow the UK rules on this and sign everything in blue. Some people think this is better. I don't.

In any case-this gantry on the N18 is far superior to the ones on the M50 and the ones on the M11 northbound even though they don't cause unnecessarry lane changes, they repeat destinations for both lanes, needlessly cluttering the sign, and because this is Ireland-it's multiplied by 2 for dual language. What would be a very simple sign in the UK (saying "Dublin Bray") it becomes "Dublin Bray Dublin Bray Ath Cliath Bre Ath Cliath Bre". It's stupid and dangerously distracts drivers.

murphaph

strassenwolf wrote:

It may just be a bit confusing for people if they've just passed through junction 15 (Carrickmines) and suddenly they are at junction 13 (according to the signs).

But we've had a missing J8 since the western parkway was built. People don't even notice. Missing junctions are common enough across Europe as future junctions are catered for.

strassenwolf

murphaph wrote:

But we've had a missing J8 since the western parkway was built. People don't even notice. Missing junctions are common enough across Europe as future junctions are catered for.

I agree that missing junctions are common. The M50 is missing J8, as you point out, and it is also missing junctions 1 and 2.

My point is that, in the case of junction 14, it isn't missing. It's there. And it gets used by northbound and southbound traffic.

So why is it not indicated on the northbound signs?

murphaph

strassenwolf wrote:

I agree that missing junctions are common. The M50 is missing J8, as you point out, and it is also missing junctions 1 and 2.

My point is that, in the case of junction 14, it isn't missing. It's there. And it gets used by northbound and southbound traffic.

So why is it not indicated on the northbound signs?

Fair point. I agree it doesn't 'feel' right that traffic can use a junction in one direction only. It does happen sometimes in the UK too, although it's rare enough. I've never really paid any heed to the signs round there as I'd just be passing through (imagine-someone using the M50 as a bypass!). Is there a genuine possiblity of a visitor becoming confused by the set up down there?

strassenwolf

murphaph wrote:

Is there a genuine possiblity of a visitor becoming confused by the set up down there?

I'd say there is. If you were a company in Leopardstown, you might give directions to somebody coming southbound on the M50 to exit at junction 14. They can do this and the signs southbound show junction 14.

The same directions to somebody coming northbound would not be quite as straightforward as no signs for junction 14 exist.

Of course most people would look at the locations on the signs rather than the numbers of the junction. But why introduce any element of confusion?

murphaph

How about a letter to the NRA about it? It does seem strange.

BrianD

How about the NRA spending some of our hard earned money on standardising signage on m-ways that are meaningul, legal and useful for motorists?

murphaph

BrianD wrote:

How about the NRA spending some of our hard earned money on standardising signage on m-ways that are meaningul, legal and useful for motorists?

The problem with the NRA is that they appear incompetent when it comes to overseeing signage on roads they have overall reponsibility for. The local authorities seem to get away with any old rubbish. I don't see why we can realistically expect the NRA to do it's job properly 'just like that' (that's not to say that they shouldn't be doing things properly). They either know their not doing their jobs properly or are unaware of their fcuk-ups. At least if it's the latter then informing them of their mistakes might get something done about it.

strassenwolf

murphaph wrote:

How about a letter to the NRA about it? It does seem strange.

I'll do that. (Well, I'll probably email them)

Good Idea.

murphaph

strassenwolf wrote:

I'll do that. (Well, I'll probably email them)

Good Idea.

I've written to them before and they do actually reply, unlike some other government agencies with three letters :cool: