50% happy for Sinn Féin to enter coalition

catholicireland

A new opinion poll has found that almost half of Irish voters would be happy to see Sinn Féin in coalition government following the IRA's announcement that it was giving up its armed struggle.

Isnt this a confirmation that Sinn Fein is a well respected and very popular party? It seems the Irish people are willing to allow them to rule us. I for one have no problem with that.

SixtyFwee

I would certainly not vote for Sinn Féin currently, and would go so far as to say I would likely move my business from the Republic to the UK if they were to attain power in Ireland.

It will take many many years of their party functioning in a fully democratic manner before I accept them as a party deserving of votes, or worthy of joining a coalition.

Putting the NI platform to one side, the rest of their 'ideas' frankly scare me.

Zombrex

catholicireland wrote:

Isnt this a confirmation that Sinn Fein is a well respected and very popular party? It seems the Irish people are willing to allow them to rule us. I for one have no problem with that.

Link?

Zombrex

catholicireland wrote:

Isnt this a confirmation that Sinn Fein is a well respected and very popular party? It seems the Irish people are willing to allow them to rule us. I for one have no problem with that.

Found it ... http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0807/sinnfein.html

It's from a poll in the sunday business post August 7

A Sunday Business Post opinion poll suggests that Sinn Féin is set to reap electoral rewards following the IRA statement of last month.

Half of the voters surveyed indicated that they would now be happy to see Sinn Fein in a coalition government.

The poll was carried out prior to news of the Columbia Three's return to Ireland became known.

The paper's Political Correspondent Pat Leahy says if this stance is sustained it will mean more seats next time around for the party.

According to Mr Leahy this could mean that when an election was held that Sinn Féin would gain from transfer votes.

In the past, says Mr Leahy, the party had found it difficult to get transfer votes outside of areas where they have a core vote.

The results of the poll suggest that attitudes to Sinn Féin are "softening" and it will lead to more seats for them in the Dáil, says the correspondent

mike65

I can only imagine its the feel good factor at work, and lets face it most people know little of SF policies or if they are "compatable" with the other parties. ie European Constitution - they strongly against, all the main parties are for it. I also suspect the party's slender grasp of modern economic realities will also be a stumbling block, after all when the next election comes round SF will (rightly) be asked more questions about normal everyday matters than heretofore.

I suspect they'll be exposed for the soft shoe Champagne socialist lightweights they are.

Mike.

Hagar

SixtyFwee wrote:

I would certainly not vote for Sinn Féin currently, and would go so far as to say I would likely move my business from the Republic to the UK if they were to attain power in Ireland.

The Irish people have the right to self determination and if that's the way we choose, democratically of course, don't let the door hit you in the árse on the way out.

daveirl

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Sand

Any party that goes into government with SFIRA would have shreds ripped off it by the opposition - marxist economic policy, refusing to recognise the McConville murder as a crime, honouring Nazi collaborators. Youd literally annialate any party by pure associaton. SFIRA and their voters are happy to support the above, but every other political party and leadership would be caught like a rabbit in headlights and implode. Bertie got a small taste when he tried to spring the early release of McCabes killers.

mycroft

mike65 wrote:

I can only imagine its the feel good factor at work, and lets face it most people know little of SF policies or if they are "compatable" with the other parties. ie European Constitution - they strongly against, all the main parties are for it. I also suspect the party's slender grasp of modern economic realities will also be a stumbling block, after all when the next election comes round SF will (rightly) be asked more questions about normal everyday matters than heretofore.

I suspect they'll be exposed for the soft shoe Champagne socialist lightweights they are.

Mike.

Not to mention SFs appalling record in office. Campaigning aganist the bin tax while voting for it in Sligo, privatising hospitals in the north while campaigning aganist privatisation in the south. Campaigning aganist the Iraqi war while scampering up to bush for photo ops just before the war.

SF have exposed themselves as cynical opportunties before taking government one wonders how bad they'll get once they're in government

Hagar

But aren't Fianna Fail a Republican Party also?
It says so on their posters, it must be true...

horseflesh

The truth is if people knew the full extent of Sinn Féin's lunatic economic policies their support would drop like a stone. People generally have been riding the back of the Celtic Tiger for years at this stage and won't give that up. People are generally also a little selfish.

The impression I get is that the bulk of their support (in Dublin certainly) is young males, attracted to nothing more than the hard man connotations of supporting SF.
It's all so easy for Sinn Féin to posture from the sidelines of opposition and try to grab a few more votes with their spin on the topic-of-the-day, but they would be an unmitigated disaster in Government. I hope I don't ever have to be proved right.

horseflesh

Hagar wrote:

But aren't Fianna Fail a Republican Party also?
It says so on their posters, it must be true...

I'm a republican (with a small "r"), doesn't mean I go along with Sinn Féin's twisted view of republicanism.

gurramok

horseflesh wrote:

The impression I get is that the bulk of their support (in Dublin certainly) is young males, attracted to nothing more than the hard man connotations of supporting SF.

Hard man connotations?

They get support because they give a sh1t about everyday issues especially in working-class areas, not about events that occur in another jurisdiction.

hill16

Is wanting a 32 County Irish Republic a twisted view?.

horseflesh

hill16 wrote:

Is wanting a 32 County Irish Republic a twisted view?.

No, but killing everyone who gets in your way is.

Sinn Féin's republicanism is more like extreme nationalism.

rsynnott

catholicireland wrote:

Isnt this a confirmation that Sinn Fein is a well respected and very popular party? It seems the Irish people are willing to allow them to rule us. I for one have no problem with that.

Almost half. Goodness. That's a bit like the recent statistic where almost half of air passengers would be willing to tolerate mobile phones on planes.

gurramok wrote:

They get support because they give a sh1t about everyday issues especially in working-class areas, not about events that occur in another jurisdiction.

Do they really? Ever looked at their economic policy in detail?

To be honest, the day our country is taken over by the terrorists, I'll be on the first plane to the UK.

supersheep

mycroft wrote:

Not to mention SFs appalling record in office. Campaigning aganist the bin tax while voting for it in Sligo, privatising hospitals in the north while campaigning aganist privatisation in the south. Campaigning aganist the Iraqi war while scampering up to bush for photo ops just before the war.

SF have exposed themselves as cynical opportunties before taking government one wonders how bad they'll get once they're in government

Cynical opportunists? In politics? No way!
And Sand, wasn't Fine Gael founded by a guy who went to fight for Franco...
But yeah, I agree with horseflesh. It seems to me that most of SF's support comes from their hard-man image - certainly here anyways (Cavan). When the conflict goes, maybe their support will too.

mycroft

supersheep wrote:

Cynical opportunists? In politics? No way!

And SF's claims that they're a breath of fresh air, and hold themselves to a higher standard to other parties is what.

SF have exposed themselves as shabby two faced opportunties before they've entered government one wonders how bad they'd be in power.

Wibbs

Hagar wrote:

The Irish people have the right to self determination and if that's the way we choose, democratically of course, don't let the door hit you in the árse on the way out.

True, but if they did get in with their current la la land economic policies intact there'll be a lot of arses avoiding being hit by doors.

They seem (to my eyes at least) go on at length about an equal society. Increasing the tax for high earners, increasing capital gains(targeting home ownership)and corporation tax and passing on the money to the low earners. Robin hood economics, tax the rich and pay the poor. So far so socialist. The problem is the rich will go elsewhere and soon there won't be anyone left to tax to pay for their grand scheme. You can't take money without creating it first and on that score their ideas are seriously lacking. Their ideas about local industry have some merit, but not at the expense of international industry and investment.

Their general mistrust of the private sector in favour of the public(ie the state, ie them, if they get in) is also a worry. That level of state control over our lives is as bad as the big capitalism they want to replace. The advantage with the latter is that at least there is likely to be more money floating around to pay for public services.


http://sinnfein.ie/policies/document/146/3

As a society we need to move away from the notion that profit is the only reason for engaging in enterprise.

It shouldn't be the only reason but without profit, even a little, any enterprise quickly becomes untenable. This concept alone is a dubious one, best left to teenage guinness socialists to mull over.

Don't get me wrong, I'm in favour of a more equitable society, but I honestly can't see how policies like the ones Sinn Fein want to implement will bring this about, certainly not in the long term. So I'm with SixtyFwee(and many many others) on this one.

tomMK1

daveirl wrote:

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and what exactly is their 'ludicrous idea of how much personal taxation should be'?

Care to share?

gurramok

rsynnott wrote:

Do they really? Ever looked at their economic policy in detail?

Yes they do. If you mentioned the bogside to any, they would probably think you are talking about some bog in Co. Laois!...that would be true for any Dub of any social class.
To answer supersheep's assertion about Cavan, rural SF voters are mostly traditionalists, urban ones are the mostly new voters who are mostly working class that would have voted Lab\FF in the past but are searching for something new on offer.

To answer your second question, why should I?..I didnt vote for them. Plenty in my estate did, they feel ignored by all parties that have being in govt..FF, FG, PD, Lab...Greens don't help since they align themselves with FG.

daveirl

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tomMK1

daveirl wrote:

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any chance of a real link .. like to facts or something. a boards thread that has a Examiner link that doesnt work ... care to find out the info from an official and real source?

I find a lot of people who slag off SF policies have never ever actually read their policies firsthand.

This should work.

I'd imagine the authors did read the SF manifesto at the last election and being a daily newspaper probably had a goodish grasp of what all the parties in that election were proposing.

tomMK1

what that link tells me is what "COLIN HUNT believes .." which technically is hearsay. isnt it wiser to find this documentation from SF and then discredit it? Otherwise you're going by what 'COLIN HUNT believes ' and I have no idea who he is.

The Sinn Fein site has tons of info on their policies. I feel is not good enough to ridicule a party on its economic ideals by referring to a newspaper article.

tomMK1

also that article bases its assumptions around the idea that SF propose a "significant increase in Government expenditure" - so therefore where does the money come from.

I work in a LA, and its very very very obvious any government who dcould be bother could save this country an absolute fortune - and I mean a fortune - by spending local authority money a bit more wisely. Its like a business .. its easier to save money than create new clients

tomMK1

tomMK1 wrote:

what that link tells me is what "COLIN HUNT believes .." which technically is hearsay. isnt it wiser to find this documentation from SF and then discredit it? Otherwise you're going by what 'COLIN HUNT believes ' and I have no idea who he is.

He has costed the two things mentioned,he was head of research with Goodbody stockbrokers iirc and currently works as an advisor for the dept of transport

The Sinn Fein site has tons of info on their policies. I feel is not good enough to ridicule a party on its economic ideals by referring to a newspaper article.

You might feel that but wheres the money going to come from?
The problem as I see it is that the easy vote catchment area for Sinn Féin wont ask that question, but the other 90% will.

tomMK1

where can the money come from? as mentioned in my previous post, anyone could save a fortune the way local authorities are run internally. In IT alone, literally hundreds of thousands are squandered each year on useless contracts. I could tell you stories, believe me .. like the imagesetter which was bought in here - very very expensive machine and yet we're actually paying those it was bought from something like 20c for every A4 colour sheet printed from it (after paying for it too). Or how about paying the LGCSB a fortune every year for minimum, shakey windows hosting. or the reliance on microsoft for web solutions - probably because some people are getting backhanders from microsoft - and then paying MS another few hundred thousand a year - and thats just one LA.
A bit of decent organisation and house keeping , and say you saved 100, 000 per LA? thats a lot of money and it wouldnt have been raised from anyway .. it would have been saved.

tomMK1

tomMK1 wrote:

where can the money come from? as mentioned in my previous post, anyone could save a fortune the way local authorities are run internally.

so SF are going to fight the unions?

In IT alone, literally hundreds of thousands are squandered each year on useless contracts. I could tell you stories, believe me .. like the imagesetter which was bought in here - very very expensive machine and yet we're actually paying those it was bought from something like 20c for every A4 colour sheet printed from it (after paying for it too). Or how about paying the LGCSB a fortune every year for minimum, shakey windows hosting. or the reliance on microsoft for web solutions - probably because some people are getting backhanders from microsoft - and then paying MS another few hundred thousand a year - and thats just one LA.

I'm lost, is it in the Northern public service you work? Or are you talking about the South? I thought you lived in Omagh?

A bit of decent organisation and house keeping , and say you saved 100, 000 per LA? thats a lot of money and it wouldnt have been raised from anyway .. it would have been saved.

To be frank with you,the article estimated €3 billion in extra spending here in the south.There'd probably be an awfull tussle with the unions to get even 10% of that from savings.

tomMK1

born and bred in omagh, I now live in the south.

As for the unions - thats great. sit back, do nothing and then blame Sinn fein for having airy fairy ideas - in other words, someone will have to deal with the unions sooner or later, but thats a different story for another day.

and yes, 3 billion BUT - im not a politician ... its not my job to save government money .. i was just pointing out that really, there ARE ways of saving money (and more than likely raising it too) so this idea that SFs policys are utter crap - all said without any supporting evidence - sounds like sour grapes to me. oh SF might be getting somewhere, lets talk crap about them - thats what seems to be going on. too much giving out and not enough brain usage.

tomMK1

tomMK1 wrote:

born and bred in omagh, I now live in the south.

Ah I see

As for the unions - thats great. sit back, do nothing and then blame Sinn fein for having airy fairy ideas - in other words, someone will have to deal with the unions sooner or later, but thats a different story for another day.

and for another thread but it's a significant lobby group.

and yes, 3 billion BUT - im not a politician ... its not my job to save government money .. i was just pointing out that really, there ARE ways of saving money

I understand that, but surely SF should be explaining where it intends to finance its projects and not in general terms but specefically

(and more than likely raising it too) so this idea that SFs policys are utter crap - all said without any supporting evidence - sounds like sour grapes to me. oh SF might be getting somewhere, lets talk crap about them - thats what seems to be going on. too much giving out and not enough brain usage.

Again to be frank with you we are talking economic policies in this instance and you can be damn sure that any party would be scrutinised when it comes to people deciding whether to vote for them and thats proper order.
The only way to counter the accusations as to where the money would come from would be to show people the money( almost a bad film pun I know )

And as regards this board it's a general politics board and there are people here who will be uber critical and logically so of any parties policies.
Arent you glad that the discussion has moved(at least for now) onto bread and butter issues?

tomMK1

Earthman wrote:

and for another thread but it's a significant lobby group.

oh god i know....the whole 'have to be 3 years employed in an LA' to go permanent thing was doing my head in

And as regards this board it's a general politics board and there are people here who will be uber critical and logically so of any parties policies.

true

Arent you glad that the discussion has moved(at least for now) onto bread and butter issues?

haha! ... yeah, very true.

supersheep

gurramok wrote:

Yes they do. If you mentioned the bogside to any, they would probably think you are talking about some bog in Co. Laois!...that would be true for any Dub of any social class.
To answer supersheep's assertion about Cavan, rural SF voters are mostly traditionalists, urban ones are the mostly new voters who are mostly working class that would have voted Lab\FF in the past but are searching for something new on offer.

To answer your second question, why should I?..I didnt vote for them. Plenty in my estate did, they feel ignored by all parties that have being in govt..FF, FG, PD, Lab...Greens don't help since they align themselves with FG.

Maybe the older people are, but what about the youngsters signing "Up the 'ra!" and all that crap in my local 'dishcow' at three in the morning last Saturday night? They sure as hell aren't traditionalists, and they support SF because they are linked to the IRA, not cos they are marginalised... Now, that may be only for the country, but I doubt it...

Hagar

tomMK1 wrote:

where can the money come from?

Well they could always go back to their roots and rob the banks.
Those fúckers have been robbing us all for years.

daveirl

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rsynnott

daveirl wrote:

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And at that, will they do it, or is their socialist-esqe politics (which is inconsistant at the best of times in any case) simply a route to power? See a niche, jump in it?

Propocus

Going back to the original post - not surprised about the percentage really but then I guess most of these people haven't heard about the murder of Joseph Rafferty in D15..

That asides this won't make a difference to the "Me-Feiners" that are growing ever more abundant in this country unless of course SFIRA insist on raising taxes - then I am afraid they will be doomed at the ballot box since I think that the average voter is slightly more economically literate than the comrade that developed SFIRAs pseudo-Stalinist policies. (Who does Mary-Lou sit beside in
Europe again?......)

Dave!

That's good news to me. I would never have voted for SF while they're still associated with a violent IRA, who do nothing but hinder the peace process and rob and kill their own people, but if they destroy their weapons, then I can consider voting for SF. They're not only party radical enough to get a united Ireland, but I won't be voting for them until I read into the rest of their policies. I have their most recent manifesto, haven't looked at it yet though.

Sarsfield

On the original point, 50% not objecting to SF in government doesn't translate into anything real. I've no objection to the PDs being in government as they were democratically elected. But I wouldn't vote for them in a million years.

At to the PAYE thing, the SF 2005 pre-budget submission proposed a 50% income tax on earnings over €100K

http://www.sinnfein.ie/policies/document/192/5

I supply this as information only. If SF ever gets into government I'll be heading straight for the airport along with a lot of others (and no, I don't earn anything close to 100K)

rsynnott

I actually think high tax for the very wealthy is a good idea. That said, I'd head for the UK; I don't want to live in a country run by terrorists.

supersheep

How about a country run by ex-terrorists?

rsynnott

supersheep wrote:

How about a country run by ex-terrorists?

Oh, that's MUCH better, of course. And I'll believe the ex-terrorist bit when they haven't blown anyone up, shot anyone or intimidated anyone for, say, 15 years?

supersheep

Seeing as this country was FOUNDED by ex-terrorists, you probably should jump on the next flight out of the country, then... Actually, that's even worse than it being run by ex-terrorists - it's obviously based on crazy ex-terrorist principles which aren't very nice because they're terrorists.

rsynnott

supersheep wrote:

Seeing as this country was FOUNDED by ex-terrorists, you probably should jump on the next flight out of the country, then... Actually, that's even worse than it being run by ex-terrorists - it's obviously based on crazy ex-terrorist principles which aren't very nice because they're terrorists.

Well, it was a bit of a nightmare till quite recently, you know; the EU has helped sweep away most of the Church-imposed nonsense though.

supersheep

supersheep wrote:

Seeing as this country was FOUNDED by ex-terrorists, you probably should jump on the next flight out of the country, then... Actually, that's even worse than it being run by ex-terrorists - it's obviously based on crazy ex-terrorist principles which aren't very nice because they're terrorists.

Bad logic unless you want to go back to all of societies rules from then.
One of them would be short pants if your under 18.
And dont even think of being allowed to vote at 18 if you are a man or over 21 if you arent a householder and God forbid a woman under 30 full stop or over 30 who isnt a householder, the wife of a householder, an occupier of property with an annual rent of £5 or a graduate of British universities...

What went on in 1918 or the spanish inquisition isn't requisite for the standards of 2005.

supersheep

I'm just making the point that the extremists of today are the centrists of tomorrow. Fianna Fáil, in my opinion, were just as bad as Sinn Féin, what with their Civil War and taking the oath and everything - indeed, the parallels between the two parties are fairly striking...
So, maybe, Sinn Féin will turn out to be just another political party - actually, probably, as once they get the tiniest whiff of power, I'd say they'll do ANYTHING to get their hands on it, just like every other party.

rsynnott

So, I should vote SF, because they'll be just like FF in 50 years? What?

supersheep

I'm saying that it's a pretty stupid thing to run for the hills just because your country is run by a political party you don't like, and see as terrorists, seeing as they're going to turn out just like Fianna Fáil and the rest of our political parties in a few years.
Anyways, running is a coward's option. You don't like Sinn Féin, stay here, make their life hell. I know I'm not going to be sitting on my hands going "Yay" when they get into power.

supersheep

supersheep wrote:

I'm just making the point that the extremists of today are the centrists of tomorrow.

Which I'm saying is bad logic because you are cherry picking one value from the turn of the century(terrorism) and saying it's alright in the here and now because of that...you shouldnt cherry pick,you should take it all if you want to justify what most people would think wrong today but accepted nearly a 100 years ago for whatever reason.

Fianna Fáil, in my opinion, were just as bad as Sinn Féin, what with their Civil War and taking the oath and everything - indeed, the parallels between the two parties are fairly striking...

What?? SF today advocate boys up untill 18 walking around in short pants,women not voting till they are 30,voting based on house ownership/rent values do they? Thats news to me.
Those are just the small things,theres loads more.

So, maybe, Sinn Féin will turn out to be just another political party - actually, probably, as once they get the tiniest whiff of power, I'd say they'll do ANYTHING to get their hands on it, just like every other party.

Some would say they are like that already, which is why a term in power as part of a coalition might be no harm to them as people might soon find out that talk is cheap but action is expensive,

You've got to realise that this is 2005 and not the early 1900's , things have moved on big time.

Calina

supersheep wrote:

I'm saying that it's a pretty stupid thing to run for the hills just because your country is run by a political party you don't like, and see as terrorists, seeing as they're going to turn out just like Fianna Fáil and the rest of our political parties in a few years.
Anyways, running is a coward's option. You don't like Sinn Féin, stay here, make their life hell. I know I'm not going to be sitting on my hands going "Yay" when they get into power.

Yes, well if I'm going to vote for them I'd rather wait until they were just like Fianna Fail in 50 years time rather than start now when they're still somewhat ambivalent about guerilla warfare.