Realistic training???

Damo W

Hi Guys,

In the topic ‘Tournaments – Do they mean anything’, the question about TMA not providing realistic training (for 'street' application) arose, what in your opinion is realistic training.

Can realistic training ever be achieved, can a ‘street’ situation ever be recreated outside of the actual event (would one want to), and is MMA the closest environment that we can get to it?

Your comments would be appreciated.

Damien

mark.leonard

Damo - I think that there are so many variables in a street situation that training for this hypothetical encounter is pointless.

MMA has a limited rule set that gives a close approximation of a real encounter.

Those of you with some physics in your background know that if you are trying to approximate a multi variable equation you will need to hold some of these variables constant. In the MMA rule set, or indeed the whole training paradigm, we keep constant the number of opponents (1), the tools allowed in striking (elbows, hands, knees and legs, no weapons), no dirty tactics (eye gouging etc.) and certain other things (time limits for example). Most of these assumptions are used to create a safe environment for training with full resistance.

The arguments tend to arise from people claiming that these assumptions are unreasonable, the whole "sure you can beat me with MMA but if I was allowed to punch you in the throat or a pressure point I would have won" idea. I am sure everyone on this board has heard arguments refuting that it is acceptable to take any of these variables constant (its never one on one on the street, knives are everywhere nowadays etc etc etc).

I am not at all sure that anyone would agree with the way I have laid out the problem, but in that unlikley event, perhaps your question could be phrased as - do TMAs hold less variables constant in their training methods to approximate a street encounter? This would then give a more accurate appromation.


(my apologies to resorting to high levels of geekishness to make my point!)

Clive

More TMA/MMA!

It doesn´t matter what name you want to put on it. If two guys want to learn to grapple - they should grapple, see what positions/situations they get stuck in, find answers, drill them, then grapple again and try to pull them off. Then lather, rinse, repeat.

If you wanted to learn about fighting two or more people, it´s the same process as learning to fight one.

If you wanted to do it on concrete, it´s the same method of training and just bring more plasters for all the scrapes.

Whether you want to fight in points kickboxing, BJJ, MMA, on THE STREET or Gotham City, good training methods are good training methods.

memphis

Clive wrote:

More TMA/MMA!

It doesn´t matter what name you want to put on it. If two guys want to learn to grapple - they should grapple, see what positions/situations they get stuck in, find answers, drill them, then grapple again and try to pull them off. Then lather, rinse, repeat.

If you wanted to learn about fighting two or more people, it´s the same process as learning to fight one.

If you wanted to do it on concrete, it´s the same method of training and just bring more plasters for all the scrapes.

Whether you want to fight in points kickboxing, BJJ, MMA, on THE STREET or Gotham City, good training methods are good training methods.

Post of the month!!!!

Couldn't agree with ya more Clive!!!

Cabelo

Whatever you do, don't do capoeira! We'd be USELESS in street combat, and all kinds of other self derogatory comments.

It's about time somebody went against the grain and said negative things about what they do

Anything is good for training I reckon. As long as you're doing things and learning PROBABLE defenses etc.

dent

Clive wrote:

If you wanted to learn about fighting two or more people, it´s the same process as learning to fight one.

Check out this article originally posted by Bambi, shows how different training methods have a different outlook on the same techniques. Good reason to cross train.

http://www.grapplearts.com/Submission-Grappling-vs-ju-jutsu.htm

dub1dude

Best we can do is be best prepared for a street encounter regardless of whether you like to grapple or go toe to toe with somebody.

Different courses for different horses.

Personally I've taken to knife and gun techniques. The more I practice them hopefully the more prepared I will be if somebody does come at me.

I know people are going to say how can you stop a bullet at 50 yards? Answer is I can't. The way I was told about it is either somebody is going to shoot/stab you or they won't. So if someone takes a gun/knife to you, chances are that if they haven't pulled the trigger/stabbed then you have a good chance of neutralising that threat.

We train with a knives that realease red ink with pressure (like the ones in the movies) and paint guns to try simulate the encounter as realistically as possible without getting hurt (and in a non-compliant manner before you all start). But the thing about any weapon is you are more than likely going to get cut/shot, all we can do is try to minimise the amount of damage done and maximise the damage to the attacker. There are certain rules to the encounter that we learn inside out back to front and upside down.

Different courses for different horses.

Answer is we are all trying our best to simulate the real life in a dojo, but nothing ever really goes to plan on the street, so I've heard.

I think I have sixth sense about danger (a spidy sense if you will), because anytime I see (sense) anything I avoid it all costs. And it's not because I'm afraid of the encounter, I'm afraid of what I might do to the attacker. Even in practicing people get really hurt. So to me an encounter on the street is the last thing I want, and in the end is that what the true aim of a martial artist is?

judomick

dub1dude are you for real? sixth sense, afraid of what you will do, gun defence? where do you live compton?

your sixth sense is probably paranoia, if someones going to stab you they will there not going to tell you, there were 20 deaths by shooting in 2003 pretty much all gang or drug related so unless your involved in organised crime im thinking your safe!?

dublin is not the movies crack heads dont pull guns down dark alleys, also im willing to bet most knife attacks are by people they know, so be nicer to your friends and family, and just because i think its interesting, there were 43 murders in 2003 in ireland, yet around 15000 died from heart related illness, so cardio is probably the best self defense

Roper

judomick wrote:

yet around 15000 died from heart related illness, so cardio is probably the best self defense

I have a sixth sense too, and after I finished my fry this morning I thought....... heart disease is just around the corner..... so I ran!!

Also, for pure comedy value, I'd love to train with the paintball guns.

I'll take it as a given that you're not a member of a drug dealing gang, or do not readily escort precious diamonds around in a briefcase handcuffed to your arm. So what's this all about then? Why so much emphasis on gun defence? As Judomick said, gun crime in Ireland is rare and confined for the most part to gangland or angry farmers. Surely if you're serious about self defence for the STREET then you would train for more common encounters against knife (which is a probable in an SD situation) or bottle, or especially empty hand/feet/knees. Spending less time with your paintball might aid you improve these areas???

dub1dude

Why take the chance? Anybody been to see the pyramids in Egypt? Or travel and spend time in America. Just because I study in Ireland doesn't mean I don't go outside Ireland.

And judomick I already said that either someone is going to stab you they will, re-read my post.

And it's not just guns and knives, baseball bats and other instruments. When I was school several years ago somebody took out a replica gun to me that looked real to me... and I peed my pants. So just because the gun isn't real does not mean the threat isn't.

And yes a sixth sense was a bit extreme, but come on fellas, surely you know by somebody's body language if they have any intent of attacking you.

And surely for you guys who train for "real street fighting" you must be afraid of really hurting someone real bad, I know I am. I have done at seminars when someone doesn't believe and they think they can beat me. They attack me for real and I defend myself for real. I haven't lost yet, so there is a fear that I could really hurt someone on the street... and for what, a measly bit of money in my pocket, or a phone? Or is it pride that would make you defend yourself, the pride in beating up someone just because they haven't had it as easy as you. Don't get me wrong, I don't feel sorry for people that resort to muggings and unprovoked attacks, but I certainly don't want to stoop to their level.

Take that murder in England, the axe attack. Surely that can happen anywhere anytime. Why not be prepared for all eventuallities.

And enough with the nit picking, I never said I spend all my time with paint ball guns.

A typical self defense situation in training would consist of 3 pepole, knife, bat and hands/feet etc... against 1 person. That's reality and a possibility.

Edit - Forgot to add... Paintball guns are brilliant fun.

judomick

dub1dude wrote:

Anybody been to see the pyramids in Egypt? Or travel and spend time in America.

lived in new york, sydney, been to jamaica , rio, bangkok, and a hundred other places never had a weapon pulled on me. or heard of anyone that did although i was shot at a few years ago in dublin, sawn off from about 4 feet i ran , im still alive

dub1dude wrote:

And judomick I already said that either someone is going to stab you they will, re-read my post.

so how do you train for the feeling of being stabbed, or would you remain calm while a knife is slicing through your organs? surely running is the best option

dub1dude wrote:

When I was school several years ago somebody took out a replica gun to me that looked real to me... and I peed my pants.

dub1dude wrote:

And surely for you guys who train for "real street fighting" you must be afraid of really hurting someone real bad, I know I am.

i train using control, because i train with resistance and have actually done the techniques i know what impact they have so i can choose to hurt or not whatever the case maybe

dub1dude wrote:

I have done at seminars when someone doesn't believe and they think they can beat me. They attack me for real and I defend myself for real.

you go to seminars to start fights? and i dont believe you so.....

dub1dude wrote:

A typical self defense situation in training would consist of 3 pepole, knife, bat and hands/feet etc... against 1 person. That's reality and a possibility.
.

your funny

vasch_ro

judomick wrote:

dub1dude are you for real? sixth sense, afraid of what you will do, gun defence?

sixth sense's for lack of better description are well documented in the martial arts

The Institute of Noetic Sciences (founded by astronaut Edgar Mitchell) sponsored a symposium The Possible Survival of Consciousness after Bodily Death
in July 13-14,1994, Chicago , on consciousness and its possible survival of death. As part of a special presentation, there was reference to scientific research in the areas of parapsychology. The definition presented made specific reference to four psychic capability areas.

In his presentation at the symposium, Dr. Charles T. Tart, Ph.D., professor of psychology at the University of California at Davis, defined the four major categories of psychic research:

Precognition

Prediction of future random events, where inferences from the present would be of no assistance
Telepathy

Transmission of information from mind to mind, where ordinary means of communications such as talking or signaling are eliminated
Clairvoyance

Direct extrasensory perception of information about the physical world, where there is no intervention by another mind that knows the information by normal sensory means

The three preceding skills are referred to collectively as extrasensory perception (ESP), as they all involve information gathering. The fourth area of study involves interaction with physical phenomena.
Psychokinesis

Popularly labeled "mind over matter", ability to directly affect the movement or condition of remote objects, where normal physical manipulation by self or other agents is not possible

In laboratory testing, the importance of these four psychic phenomena is that they are manifestations of mind that have resisted all attempts to reduce them to known physical forces, or straightforward extensions of known physical forces.

These same four psychic capabilities are included as the fifth, sixth, seventh, and eighth developments of warrior powers as taught in the ninja's ancient practice of kuji goshin ho , or the "spiritual protection through the nine syllables of power". The kuji realm of power has its basis in the mikkyo ("secret doctrines") esoteric Buddhist systems that were introduced into Japan over a thousand years ago. Each of the nine powers or capacities is represented by a set hand posturing called in or ketsu-in or mudra , a vocalized sound or oath called jumon or mantra , and a specific visualized intention often symbolized by a mandala or yantra figure or image. The three aspects are blended to create a triggering action that is used to bring about the desired capability.



The "sign of the outer bonds fist" is part of the fifth triggering process that summons up the ninja's sensitivity to approaching events, most specifically to premonitions of impending danger. This phenomenon is reflected in ninja Grandmaster Masaaki Hatsumi's sak-ki sword test for go-dan 5th Degree Black Belt,

Roper

Do you remember in the old (non animated) spiderman series the whole scene used to stop and flash when he got his spidey sense? Man that was cool, I wish they'd included that in the movies..... more 70's style special effects are needed in movies today.

I wasn't nitpicking dub1dude just wondering aloud. Personally I'd love to have a game of scotch using a paint ball gun instead of the tennis ball, but nobody will play with me....

I've travelled to so called dangerous places including NY, and anyone who's seen a movie knows everybody has a gun there!!! Never been held up in one of those places, I have been held up with a gun though. Actually, I've been held at gunpoint, knifepoint, syringepoint (twice), and breadknifepoint (seriously). I was most afraid with the syringe, strangely least afraid with the gun. I just laughed at the breadknife junkie guy. All of these were in Ireland and in all bar the butterknife case I just paid up and hit the alarm.

Supposing I'm held up down a dark alley, I'll do the same. Empty my wallet, give him the phone. I wouldn't be thinking at all how much damage I'd do to him I'd be thinking about going home.

Vasch, tell me you're in some way, any way, placing your tongue firmly in your cheek right now..........PUUUULLLLLEEEAASSE!!!!!

dent

dub1dude wrote:

I know people are going to say how can you stop a bullet at 50 yards? Answer is I can't. The way I was told about it is either somebody is going to shoot/stab you or they won't. So if someone takes a gun/knife to you, chances are that if they haven't pulled the trigger/stabbed then you have a good chance of neutralising that threat.

I have spoken to the real deal when its comes to combat and in his expert opinion that the only way to tackle some one with a pistol is side on. So if he is pointing the gun at someone else and you are close you might have a chance. If its pointed at you, then you have no hope. He also sopke of a guy who was teaching gun defence, at one of his seminars he fired of a pistol with a blank round. The guy teaching the course had never heard a gun go off at that range and jumped a mile.

Still I would love to give it a go with paintball guns.

dub1dude wrote:

But the thing about any weapon is you are more than likely going to get cut/shot, all we can do is try to minimise the amount of damage done and maximise the damage to the attacker.

Could not agree more. We just trained with rubber knifes and its a real eye opener. Trying not to get cut in vital places was one theme. Better to get cut on the outside of your arm instead of the inside.

Where did you get the ink knifes. Sounds cool

dent

Roper wrote:

Actually, I've been held at gunpoint, knifepoint, syringepoint (twice), and breadknifepoint (seriously). I was most afraid with the syringe, strangely least afraid with the gun. I just laughed at the breadknife junkie guy. All of these were in Ireland and in all bar the butterknife case I just paid up and hit the alarm.

My God what do you work in. I have to say the syringe would be the one I'd most fear out of them. Maybe its the threat of infection etc

john kavanagh

i'm sure vasch_ro is joking......but for anyone who does believe that kind of nonsense, why oh why dont these 'supermen' collect an easy million dollars?

Dyr

its funny i asked about the needle thing on a forum once and most the guys who should know reckoned that the risk of infection was very slim, mainly because injecting anything into an unwilling subject is pretty damn hard to do without breaking the hypo

loz

dub1dude wrote:

A typical self defense situation in training would consist of 3 pepole, knife, bat and hands/feet etc... against 1 person. That's reality and a possibility.

And you'd be dead......................................

Roper

I worked in a Petrol station!!! It was a big target for hold up as it was well known to have a huge turnover. In fairness, it must have looked like I was a diamond exporter or something from my original comment but the truth is far less glam.

Yeah the syringe was the scariest, not just for the syringe factor but also cos the guy holding it was particularly desperate looking and clearly either high or gumming for a fix. The shotgun actually wasn't that scary cos I sort of knew he wouldn't use it and he was quite calm himself. Sounds stupid I know but that was my reaction at the time. Afterwards though I had to go to the bar across the road and have a brandy.... seriously!!!

The breadknife guy I felt a bit sorry for later. He came in full of it and shouting all over the place, my workmate, the guy he was trying to hold up first told him to get lost, so he turned to me and shouted "where's the safe!!?", the sight of him holding the pathetic little blunt knife and shouting that actually made me giggle. I thought he was doing it for a dare. We both hopped the counter and chased him out of the shop. The cops picked him up and told us later he was a guy with "emotional difficulties".

vasch_ro

I was just trying to show , that a lot of people believe in sixth sense stuff

I'm thinking I should put http://www.noetic.org in touch with
http://randi.org/research/index.html

vasch_ro

I do have an interest in this Stuff and indeed much to some peoples amazement from UCD BJJ, asked the UCD Ninjutsu instructor(at the BJJ/Ninjutsu x training session) about his Saki test, he seemed very genuine, and I was primarily interested about how one would train for such test, he did not really seem to know how to explain it though.

dent

Roper wrote:

I worked in a Petrol station!!! It was a big target for hold up as it was well known to have a huge turnover. In fairness, it must have looked like I was a diamond exporter or something from my original comment but the truth is far less glam.

All the same I hope you got danger money

mcguiver

If you want to see practical "street fighting" practice then visit Brian Mc Carthys ninjitsu classes.
He uses fake+ real knives , bar stools/tables etc....I've even see him rig up window frames (try diving through one... Hollywood makes it look so easy!!)

Once your technique is good, your in shape and alert thats as good as you can prepare...after that it's experience. We all react differently when the real thing happens/ sight of weapon /blood etc.

john kavanagh

I was just trying to show , that a lot of people believe in sixth sense stuff

a lot of people believe a lot of very weird things - try reading the men who stare at goats to see just how funky our thinking can get when logic, reason etc are absent...

I'm thinking I should put http://www.noetic.org in touch with
http://randi.org/research/index.html

well i'll use my incredible psychic powers and predict that they will ignore you!! now i wonder why they would be so unwilling to collect an easy million :rolleyes:

Roper

lot of people believe a lot of very weird things - try reading the men who stare at goats to see just how funky our thinking can get when logic, reason etc are absent...

I haven't read it but it's on my amazon wish list. I watched the series though, and was particularly impressed with the martial arts guy who stared at his hamster for days. What mind control. "See that? Look at the way he's burrowing into his nest he's disturbed by me!"
Or the guy who said the army should carry lambs instead of guns......

I've even see him rig up window frames (try diving through one... Hollywood makes it look so easy!!)

Uh, why?

vasch_ro

john kavanagh wrote:

well i'll use my incredible psychic powers and predict that they will ignore you!! now i wonder why they would be so unwilling to collect an easy million :rolleyes:

I nominate John Kavanagh for the million
he was soooo right !

Musashi

I've read the book and the worst was the poor feckers being forced to listen to Barney the Dinosaur music while strobe lights were fired at em

First Earth Battalion would have to be Americans

StrateBlastJim

vasch_ro wrote:

I do have an interest in this Stuff and indeed much to some peoples amazement from UCD BJJ, asked the UCD Ninjutsu instructor(at the BJJ/Ninjutsu x training session) about his Saki test, he seemed very genuine, and I was primarily interested about how one would train for such test, he did not really seem to know how to explain it though.

Is that the same fifth dan nijitsu instructor who on that very night was shown a takedown to mount followed by turning your subject on to their belly and applying a rearnakedjoke?

Because after being shown the sequence not 10 minutes earlier he could not "for see" that i was going to do it to him, this a man who claimed he could tell when a sword was about to strike when blindfolded. The guy was heavier, stronger and fitter and had been training alot longer than me (2 years of Bjj training).

So im affraid i am a bit sceptic when martial artists claim to have this sixth sense.

pma-ire

Damo W wrote:

Hi Guys,

In the topic ‘Tournaments – Do they mean anything’, the question about TMA not providing realistic training (for 'street' application) arose, what in your opinion is realistic training.

Can realistic training ever be achieved, can a ‘street’ situation ever be recreated outside of the actual event (would one want to), and is MMA the closest environment that we can get to it?

Your comments would be appreciated.

Damien

Your main drive should be to Cross-Train, Cross-Train, Cross-Train, Cross-Train, Cross-Train, Cross-Train, Cross-Train, Cross-Train, Cross-Train, Cross-Train, ......

dub1dude

Somebody mentioned there that I would be dead if someone with a bat a knife and hands and feet attacked me.

Well firstly I would agree and disagree.

I disagree because, I never said I stand there and fight three of them simutanoulsy. When fighting multiple attackers it's important to only fight one at a time. I pracitce this several times weekly. The more I practice my manouveours on live people week in week out the more chance I have in a live situation if it ever arises. To not practice it would be my downfall.

I agree because, if three people did attack me with those weapons I would be looking for the quickest way out of there. Maybe I would only have to take one guy out quickly and run, but I would run. Maybe they would chase me, but I would be willing to bet I would be fitter than them. Failing that.. jump in a taxi or on a bus.

I'm not saying it's the most practical way to learn to defend yourself... but the area I went to school in people were being attacked weekly by 3-5 guys with hammers, bats, guns (replicas?), spanners, wrenches etc...

So not being prepared for these types of attacks would be negligent on my part in not only teaching but also learning.

Don't get me wrong... I do do other stuff other than working with weapons. But it's still fun to get in there and mix it up.

If any of you want to try or have ever tried multiple attack situations go ahead. It's fun, healthy and realistic. I've had to do multiple attacks for all my gradings brown and above. When I was going for my Brown belt I had to fight two extremely competent fighters, 1 of 15 years experience boxing and the other 25 years experience in Martial Arts. I fought both of them at the same time and by God did I work hard to win.

Edit - Even though I said sixth sense, I was joking... But I would know if someone was ill intented when they approach me, simply by their body language. A friend of mine was away at the weekend and a guy walked up to them with his hand in his pocket, he started to ask them something and my friend just told him, hold on stay where you are, what do you want to know, he didn't let him come any closer. He does not do any Martial Arts, but he knew the guy was going to try mug him.

loz

dub1dude wrote:

When fighting multiple attackers it's important to only fight one at a time.

Thats going be my sig from now on.....

dub1dude

Obviously you have never fought in a multiple attacking situtation.

I don't know whether I should bother explaining the theory or not?

It seems wasted to people with tunnel vision.

Maybe this site could explain it better than I ever could.

http://www.defendu.com/multiple_attackers.htm

edit - instead of using one line as my quote use this

When multiple attackers attack you it is best to keep them in a straight line. i.e. if the person behind one of the attackers moves left, you move right. Always be aware of your surroundings and attack the most vunerable areas with lethal strikes.

Roper

Sometimes you just have to be practical and heed the advice of the Brazilian who told me, “More than one, use a gun.”

This is the best point I saw from this article

I understand that you want to learn to defend yourself in a variety of ways, including multiple attackers. Fair enough, everyone would like that. But I would say that there is no real effective way of dealing with this in training physically other than concentrating on beating one guy first, which is the primary concern of any good art.

However some of that article is pure conjecture. Royce Gracies idea of hitting one guy, then moving to the next, then the next etc. That's fine if you have a KO punch, but most times I hit a guy he starts to hit back......

Always be aware of your surroundings and attack the most vunerable areas with lethal strikes.

And what are lethal strikes exactly?

loz

No - please explain the theory.

I have my own. If you get attacked my 3 or more - your gonna get the **** kicked out of you - best bet is run.


You could demonstrate on Sunday what you mean maybe....?

dub1dude

Alot of the points are taken from real life encounters. And from the top respected martial artists. If you are better than these guys and know more than they do then fair play to you.

Lethal strikes would include, throat attacks, groin attacks, mastoid, spine, bladder, xyphoid process, floating ribs and many many more

dub1dude

Of course you'll get beaten up if you don't train t deal with the situation. I can't tell you in words how it works. Why not try it yourself when you are training. Get some of your lowly followers to don their mits and attack you simutanoulsy, you will notice that you can beat both of them easily. Try it again with others around your own level of experience... it won't be as easy. My point is people who are not used to fighting will not be able to beat someone that is able to fight. And people that are experienced at fighting will be able to defeat them.

Reverse the process and get two of the higher ranking personell in your club to attack a lower ranked person and vice versa.

That's the only way you will ever learn because no matter what I say you won't believe me anyway. You won't believe the top respected Martial Artists of the world or their own experiences.

Best of luck to you. If you want to train in realistic street fighting you train with realistic situations. Not just one on one.

Fair enough if you want to run or have the option to run then that's fine and it's the first thing I recommend.

That's why there's a 3 mile run at the start of each class.

Roper

I'll take it as read that you've never actually killed anyone with these lethal attacks. Unless you're using the prison library computer. Have any of your Instructors or any of the people you're referring to killed people with these attacks? On what evidence are you basing this lethality?

And I think you can be fairer to Loz there, he's saying he'd get the crap kicked out of him in a multiple attacker situation, but you're saying he know's better than these respected MAists?

Have you been attacked by multiple attackers?

Here's an article that reflects a lot of my own personal views on the matter, just explained a lot better than I could:
Street fighting

dub1dude

I've heard it all before from SBG.

I personally don't know anybody who has killed anybody. Anyone who has thought me showed me how to use control as well as power.

Perhaps I should of said potentially lethal.

One of my friends did break a guys arm with an outward block as the attacker went for him with a knife. Turns out the guy had to have his arm amputated. And now I'm going to get slated for telling that story.

We're in agreement.

The only training to do effectively for street fighting is cross training.

Train against multiple attackers.

Train against one on one.

Train against weapons.

Train train train train against anything and everyone.

dent

dub1dude wrote:

We're in agreement.

The only training to do effectively for street fighting is cross training.

Train against multiple attackers.

Train against one on one.

Train against weapons.

Train train train train against anything and everyone.

Seems very reasonable to me. Don't understand anyone having a problem with the above statement.

loz

dub1dude wrote:

One of my friends did break a guys arm with an outward block as the attacker went for him with a knife. Turns out the guy had to have his arm amputated. And now I'm going to get slated for telling that story.

Yes you are - LOL.

Dude - how old are you ? - I think youve been watching too many films...

dent

loz wrote:

Yes you are - LOL.

Dude - how old are you ? - I think youve been watching too many films...

How long have you being doing martial arts? I'm sure everyone unfortunantly has a tale of accidents while training where breaks happen. Not sure what kind of force you would need to break an arm with a block ( Maybe he was sick or something). I wouldn't just dismiss it though.

Roper

Nope, that's pretty much bang on.

My problem is with the lethality of attacks etc. The fact is you don't know if these attacks are lethal as you have not empirically tested them. I know that you'll say you can't due to their very nature (lethal). I'll give you an analogy that might explain where I'm coming from.

I know a guy who has a knockout left hook. In the ring, on the street (doorman), anywhere you put him, give him a chance and it's lights out. I used to train with this guy, and we both threw left hooks until the cows came home. On the pads, we seemed pretty equivalent when we threw it. The difference is that he had KO power and I didn't (and still don't). Now apply this to your lethal strikes. Let's assume (and it's a big assumption), that your Instructor can kill a man with one of these strikes. How can you be sure you can? Much like my former training partner and I, you're different people. What applies to him does not necessarily apply to you.

But take an environment where such strikes are not concentrated on and the emphasis is on what you can prove there and then, and you find out your level pretty quickly and instead of relying on what you think you might be able to do. Then when you go to your street encounter, you know what you can and can't do, rather than trying out a hypothesis.

I'm not going to change your mind, nor you mine, but can you see how the above applies?

dub1dude

Ah man you're right. I am a film buff. I do watch a lot of movies.

But Loz, I think you do a lot of watching and not enough of doing.

I don't ask anyone to believe anything I say, but I ask them to respect the posibility that it is true. (Which it is by the way... why would I make that up?)

Experience is the key to being good at anything, but even with experience you may not be the best.

Loz you make me laugh. I have to say you pick up on everything I say, I am trying to be more political with my statements. You're a fine diplomat.

dent

Roper wrote:

My problem is with the lethality of attacks etc. The fact is you don't know if these attacks are lethal as you have not empirically tested them. I know that you'll say you can't due to their very nature (lethal). I'll give you an analogy that might explain where I'm coming from.

Thats reasonable, but there are parts of the body if struck are more likely to cause death. I do not believe that anyone could perform such a strike 100% of the time though.

Its common sense though right that a punch in the throat might lead to a clasped wind pipe. As opposed to punching the stomach.

I'm sure though that there would be medical records from lethal brawls that could possibly indicate the cause of death and the area struck.

Anyone a doctor?

loz

dent wrote:

How long have you being doing martial arts? I'm sure everyone unfortunantly has a tale of accidents while training where breaks happen. Not sure what kind of force you would need to break an arm with a block ( Maybe he was sick or something). I wouldn't just dismiss it though.

outer-forearm-block cauing amputation ! c'mon be serious...

I suggest the attacker was about 90 years old with some bone deficiency...

dent

loz wrote:

outer-forearm-block cauing amputation ! c'mon be serious...

I suggest the attacker was about 90 years old with some bone deficiency...

Well I'd say it was some complication in the healing of the break that led to amputation (If it happened).

Maybe he was 90 or perhaps a junkie?

dub1dude

Very good point roper.

But let me explain. Have you ever hit anybody in the sternum? You get that winded effect. People say you are hitting the solar plexus? I don't think you are, you are just putting pressure on it. But striking the area near the solar plexus causes the autonomic system to shut down and "reboot" and takes a couple of seconds. Any of my students could tell you this. The xyphoid process is a bone (tear shaped at the bottom of the breastbone that holds the diaphragm in place. Ask any doctor how much pressure it would take to "unhook" the diaphragm from the bone. I already know the answer.

On the same note, how much pressure for a strike it would take to collapse the tracheia.

It takes 30 pounds of pressure in a single strike on the temple to make someone wobble. Master Ed Parker held an experiment where he measured the amount of force being applied in the strike to the temple and it was found to be the equivilant of an old lady turning around and hitting you with her elbow. The temple has a blood vessel linked directly to the brain, if you collapse this vessel you can cause death.

How is the arm attached to shoulder? Where would you have to strike to render the arm useless. It's easier to break a collar bone than an arm.

These are all biological facts. It has been proven a kick in the groin can kill someone by collapsing the blood vessels and not allowing the circulation of blood.

The mastoid is the most vunerable part of the head, it's the only part not covered by bone, with exception of the eyes.

Where on the spine would you strike somebody to render them paralysed?

Any scientific biological book will tell you the answer. It's just a mixture of physics and biology.

These are all questions explored each day in training.

I'm not saying I can reach in and pull someones heart out. I'm just saying I have learnt the most vunerable areas of the human body that have been proven scientifically to be able to cause death.

loz

dub1dude wrote:

Ah man you're right. I am a film buff. I do watch a lot of movies.

But Loz, I think you do a lot of watching and not enough of doing.

I don't ask anyone to believe anything I say, but I ask them to respect the posibility that it is true. (Which it is by the way... why would I make that up?)

Experience is the key to being good at anything, but even with experience you may not be the best.

Loz you make me laugh. I have to say you pick up on everything I say, I am trying to be more political with my statements. You're a fine diplomat.

Ok seriously - appologies for picking on everything you say - just chuckling at some of them - thats all..

Are you an instructor? - you said before you had students - how long have you been instructing these theorys ?

dub1dude

I've been teaching since the first week I started training. Took to it like a duck to water.

I must be training over a decade now? Don't recall exactly. There was a period when I watched for a long time.

And they are no longer theorems my friend.

Appology accepted. Just letting you know I can give as good as I can get.

Roper

It has been proven a kick in the groin can kill someone by collapsing the blood vessels and not allowing the circulation of blood.

Perhaps in rare cases, but I've been kicked in the nadgers countless times since I was a wee boy and I'm still here. If this is a good method of killing somebody, why aren't there more deaths in the schoolyards from boys booting each other in the rocks? Why haven't all the stars of Jackass been killed. (though I wish they were )

I think that if you take this pseudo scientific approach you can prove more or less anything. Possibles and mights and maybes are not something I want to entrust my safety to.

You quote biology and physics but I think you miss a key factor in understanding scientific method and testing. That is that ALL of the factors must be present for anything to be proven. You might look at an anatomical model and spot a weak spot, and surmise that a strike to this point will kill. Now take that anatomical model, give it life, movement, agression, intent and skill and try to strike that point. What you get is a variable. And any scientist will tell you that too many variables spoil the equation.

dub1dude

That's exactly why it's important to train on live people daily. As you say hitting these spots is not going to be easy, but if it was easy everyone would do it.

At some point in nearly everybody's life they are going to be attacked for one reason or another. If I can disable an attacker with a smart strike and get out of there then that's good enough for me.

A smart strike:

Pointed out to me by a boxer... He noticed that I was just throwing punches and kicks and strikes in an effort to simply hit the target. He noticed that I wasn't really aiming for anything. There was no meaning to what I was doing. He showed me exactly how to time a punch, the footwork, the speed, agiltiy etc. and I applied it to what I already knew. I started to strike smarter, only throwing shots that were going to land and cause damage. Sometimes certain areas weren't open so they had to be opened by striking other areas etc...