Traffic lights: Irish vs British systems

Benster

As a Northerner living in the Republic for a few years, I have always wondered why the traffic lights sequence goes straight from red to green to permit continuation.

Having been used to the British system up North for years where it goes...

(for stopping) - Green -> Amber -> Red
(for starting) - Red -> Red+Amber -> Green


...I've got used to the short pause between red and green where you get ready to head off again. It gives you enough time to see that you're about to set off and you can get into gear in readiness. Traffic seems to start away from the lights without much fuss.

When I started driving in Dublin, the quick change from red (Do Not Move) to green (Go!) was very abrupt and in my opinion is a major reason why folk think they have to speed away from the lights so quickly (50 yrds to the next set of lights, usually). It doesn't give you time to think and the psychological effect of not being ready when it changes is something akin to panic in some folk, thus we have high revs, wheel spin or stalling the vehicle completely.

Am I the only one who thinks this?
Not that we have to copy everything done by the Brits, but wouldn't such a system help here?

Curious B.

Board@Work

I agree I find the british system must better and cant understand why we dont adopt it.

IMO we have too many traffic lights and should be concentrating on getting rid of a good few of them

MrPudding

They cannot use it here due to the amount of red light juming that goes on here. A DCC traffic representative used to be on the George Hook show every Thursday, he was asked several times and that was his response. He freely admitted that it would increase the amount of vehicles that were able to pass through lights but it woul dbe too dangerous to implement.

MrP

Sarsfield

So once again we can't do something the right way because "we're different in Ireland". :rolleyes:

I think we should adopt the UK traffic light system and let the Garda Traffic Corps (or Darwinism for that matter) take care of the red light jumpers.

MrPudding

Sarsfield wrote:

I think we should adopt the UK traffic light system and let the Garda Traffic Corps (or Darwinism for that matter) take care of the red light jumpers.

You will get no arguement from me on that. Of course some people will complain and possibly even request additional signage to remind drivers to stop at red lights. :rolleyes:

MrP

loyatemu

while they're at it how about building some intelligence into traffic lights. most of them only improve traffic flow for about 2 hours out of 24 - for the rest of the day they actively impede the flow of traffic.

Benster

MrPudding wrote:

They cannot use it here due to the amount of red light juming that goes on here. A DCC traffic representative used to be on the George Hook show every Thursday, he was asked several times and that was his response.

That sounds like a bit of a cop-out from DCC if you ask me. Folk will jump red lights if they are of that disposition anyway. The Red+Amber phase is a "get ready" signal from what I remember (open to technical correction there), but up home there are folk who are ready and go at that point as well. Legally, I'm not sure if they are breaking the law going just before green, but they haven't jumped a red.

That brings up another point in favour of the British system - Introducing an extra second or two between red and green on a "Go" signal may reduce the chances of collision with those complete idiots who were supposed to stop at their own red light to let you go, but for their own selfish reasons decide that they don't need to.

As for the enforcement of such rules as 3-phase traffic lights, I totally agree that if there was a competent Garda force who pulled people up for such "minor" infrigements as a matter of course, the levels of jumped lights would start to decline. Everyone behaved for a few months when penalty points started, didn't they?

B.

fiachs

benster - just to say that there's already a couple of seconds of time where all the lights are red at a junction to take into account people cutting through at the very end of their cycle. if the amber was used before going green it'd be in this time I would imagine so no extra time would be allotted for idiots.

Also, loyatemu, Dublin City already uses an intelligent system for the lights, SCATS is used, developed in sydney it's meant to be one of the most advanced control systems there is...

MrPudding

Benster wrote:

That sounds like a bit of a cop-out from DCC if you ask me. Folk will jump red lights if they are of that disposition anyway. The Red+Amber phase is a "get ready" signal from what I remember (open to technical correction there), but up home there are folk who are ready and go at that point as well. Legally, I'm not sure if they are breaking the law going just before green, but they haven't jumped a red.

I don't think it is a cop out at all. The point they are making is very valid. The only thing stopping more people getting creamed at the moment is that green lights seem to catch most people by surprise. If there was an amber before green people would actually move on green and probably run into one of the 5 or 6 assholes that ran the light.

MrP

Benster

fiachs wrote:

benster - just to say that there's already a couple of seconds of time where all the lights are red at a junction to take into account people cutting through at the very end of their cycle. if the amber was used before going green it'd be in this time I would imagine so no extra time would be allotted for idiots.

Yes, I've seen that being applied to more and more junctions. If it was up to me, that delay would stay and the Red+Amber phase would be added on to that. It's not even 2 seconds.

I'll repeat, though, I'm not advocating this as something to increase safety through slowing traffic flow, more to get people out of the habit of watching for the split-second the red goes out and the green lights up. That does not engender a safe attitude to driving, it engenders more of a race-track mentality.

Hmm, I feel a campaign coming on...

Machiavellian B.

frodi

Idiot drivers would learn that when lights go to red that the other side will be moving asap. Natural selection would mean that they would quickly learn to stop for red. Just like they learned that LUAS trams cannot swerve to aviod them.... :eek:

Second thoughts they will never learn, leave things as they are or alternately after about one years carnage all the idiot drivers would be gone.

murphaph

It's not just the UK that uses this sensible system. Much of Europe does too, completely without a song and dance. We're different of course, though strangely the US uses the same sequence as us.

Alun

murphaph wrote:

It's not just the UK that uses this sensible system. Much of Europe does too, completely without a song and dance.

Are you sure? I thought the UK system was pretty much in the minority in mainland Europe. Germany, I seem to remember, uses the UK system, but I can't find any definitive online source that tells what other EU countries do.

EDIT: This wikipedia article says that it's limited to UK, Germany and Poland "among others" whatever that may mean.

SeanW

You can sometimes tell when the light is about to change, if you can see the other light going red - particularly at night.

mike65

What beats me is why peeps can't just observe the sequence? Simple enough.

Mike.

Flukey

You need a warning to slow down, but not to go. Most drivers will watch the other traffic stopping at junctions and use that as a sign that they will get the green light. An amber and red, could even encourage the little boy racers to start revving up and go too soon. I think our system is fine. I have heard that the British system is actually programmed into our traffic lights, but is not used.

John R

fiachs wrote:

Also, loyatemu, Dublin City already uses an intelligent system for the lights, SCATS is used, developed in sydney it's meant to be one of the most advanced control systems there is...

They might have the system but they don't use it in any meaningful way.

Practically every light I regularly go through is on a strict timer only setting that is the same all 24-7. There are a handful of bus priority lights that are triggered by approaching buses and some light traffic junctions that are approach triggered by all vehicles but most lights including all major junctions are just on set timers. It is pathetic.

is_that_so

fiachs wrote:

Also, loyatemu, Dublin City already uses an intelligent system for the lights, SCATS is used, developed in sydney it's meant to be one of the most advanced control systems there is...

But is is actually switched on all the time? Control systems are not as good as intelligent lights. I also wonder why we don't have some lights on flashing amber at night as they do in the US and parts of Europe. I also agree with pulling red light jumpers and I think it would help modify behaviour.

Lennoxschips

I know that in Holland the lights go straight from red to green.

Traffic

I was reading somewhere that there are 630 signilised junction in the DCC area of which 460 junctions are directly controlled by the SCATS computer.

Benster

Flukey wrote:

You need a warning to slow down, but not to go. Most drivers will watch the other traffic stopping at junctions and use that as a sign that they will get the green light. An amber and red, could even encourage the little boy racers to start revving up and go too soon. I think our system is fine. I have heard that the British system is actually programmed into our traffic lights, but is not used.

SeanW wrote:

You can sometimes tell when the light is about to change, if you can see the other light going red - particularly at night.

You shouldn't have to try to second-guess the traffic lights though. You see that in the city centre a lot at pedestrian crossings when drivers don't know the sequence. They see the crossing lane stop and start revving up to set off (or even move a few feet) only to have the green man pop up. Yes, most of the time it's out of impatience, but they were expecting their red light to change straight to green. As I said a few times above, that's a psychological starting pistol at every set of lights.

A lot of traffic lights have larger hoods or grills over the glass specifically to shield their glare from road users who are not meant to be able to see those signals.

HelterSkelter

fiachs wrote:

Also, loyatemu, Dublin City already uses an intelligent system for the lights, SCATS is used, developed in sydney it's meant to be one of the most advanced control systems there is...

Intelligent system my arse. Have you ever driven up Cork street? All the traffic lights on this road change for the minor roads even when there are no cars waiting at the junction. The traffic on the major road (Cork street) is forced to wait for 2 - 3 minutes for no reason.

I also agree with the other poster that said a lot of traffic lights should be switched to flashing amber at night time.

HelterSkelter

MrPudding wrote:

They cannot use it here due to the amount of red light juming that goes on here. A DCC traffic representative used to be on the George Hook show every Thursday, he was asked several times and that was his response. He freely admitted that it would increase the amount of vehicles that were able to pass through lights but it woul dbe too dangerous to implement.

MrP

What a load of crap. We can't change to a more efficient system because people are breaking the law and we don't want to put them out!! It's like saying we can't build a LUAS line because drivers will break the lights at the junctions and crash into it!!

HelterSkelter

Flukey wrote:

You need a warning to slow down, but not to go.

Why not? It's not a warning, it's telling people to release their handbrake, get their car in gear, stop doing their makeup, stop picking their nose and get ready to go.

Flukey wrote:

Most drivers will watch the other traffic stopping at junctions and use that as a sign that they will get the green light.

Most sensible drivers will do that but we shouldn't have to. Implementing the Brit system with the Red & Amber is the same thing but on an official level.

Flukey wrote:

An amber and red, could even encourage the little boy racers to start revving up and go too soon.

If this is the case they will do it anyway by watching the traffic st the other junction as you metioned above

Traffic

Well maybe the scats system should be turned off one morning and then you would see the chaos!

HelterSkelter

What's the story with the green light at some junctions only staying on for two seconds???? One example is the junction of Crumlin Road and St Mary's road. The green light stays on for 2 or 3 seconds max on St Mary's Road. If the person on front is sleeping then nobody gets through. I can't understand why someone would decide to set up the lights like this? Or is it the unintelligent SCATS system??!!

HelterSkelter

Just found this site, makes interesting reading...

http://www.iol.ie/~discover/traffic.htm

The SCATS (Sydney Coordinated Adaptive Traffic System) is used in Dublin City. The system controls some 180 intersections (out of 1,000 odd controllers) in the Dublin Corporation area (incredibly traffic signals in South Dublin and Fingal have no management or coordination system, while Dun Laoghaire/Rathdown plan to introduce SCATS control on a few intersections before 2005).

SCATS gathers data on traffic flows in real-time at each intersection. This data is fed via the traffic control signal box to a central computer. The computer makes incremental adjustments to traffic light timings based on minute by minute changes in traffic flow at each intersection. SCATS performs a vehicle count at each stop line, and also measures the gap between vehicles as they pass through each junction. As the gap between vehicles increases the lights are wasting green time, and SCATS seeks to reallocate green time to where demand is greatest. The SCATS system is also used in many other urban areas including Hong Kong, Sydney (where it originated), Melbourne, and Oakland County (MI).

John R

Traffic wrote:

Well maybe the scats system should be turned off one morning and then you would see the chaos!

LMFAO.

Please, give examples of where this legendary system is in use and how it is different to a regular set timed light?

Again, I know of no major junction that is not on a set timed sequence that remains the same morning, noon and night.

mackerski

Austria and some other countries show a few seconds of flashing green before amber when the lights are due to go red.

Dermot

Traffic

Minimum green is set to a mimimum of 6 seconds no matter if theyre on the scats system or not and knowing that rd, marys rd gets much more than six seconds

Imposter

The system over here in austria is even better imo.
To go the light goes from red to amber to green.
To stop it flashes green 3 times, then goes amber and then red. Virtually nobody runs through red lights as people begin to go on amber. Similarly the last car usually goes through on amber but not always.