Traffic lights: Irish vs British systems

Benster

As a Northerner living in the Republic for a few years, I have always wondered why the traffic lights sequence goes straight from red to green to permit continuation.

Having been used to the British system up North for years where it goes...

(for stopping) - Green -> Amber -> Red
(for starting) - Red -> Red+Amber -> Green


...I've got used to the short pause between red and green where you get ready to head off again. It gives you enough time to see that you're about to set off and you can get into gear in readiness. Traffic seems to start away from the lights without much fuss.

When I started driving in Dublin, the quick change from red (Do Not Move) to green (Go!) was very abrupt and in my opinion is a major reason why folk think they have to speed away from the lights so quickly (50 yrds to the next set of lights, usually). It doesn't give you time to think and the psychological effect of not being ready when it changes is something akin to panic in some folk, thus we have high revs, wheel spin or stalling the vehicle completely.

Am I the only one who thinks this?
Not that we have to copy everything done by the Brits, but wouldn't such a system help here?

Curious B.

Board@Work

I agree I find the british system must better and cant understand why we dont adopt it.

IMO we have too many traffic lights and should be concentrating on getting rid of a good few of them

MrPudding

They cannot use it here due to the amount of red light juming that goes on here. A DCC traffic representative used to be on the George Hook show every Thursday, he was asked several times and that was his response. He freely admitted that it would increase the amount of vehicles that were able to pass through lights but it woul dbe too dangerous to implement.

MrP

Sarsfield

So once again we can't do something the right way because "we're different in Ireland". :rolleyes:

I think we should adopt the UK traffic light system and let the Garda Traffic Corps (or Darwinism for that matter) take care of the red light jumpers.

MrPudding

Sarsfield wrote:

I think we should adopt the UK traffic light system and let the Garda Traffic Corps (or Darwinism for that matter) take care of the red light jumpers.

You will get no arguement from me on that. Of course some people will complain and possibly even request additional signage to remind drivers to stop at red lights. :rolleyes:

MrP

loyatemu

while they're at it how about building some intelligence into traffic lights. most of them only improve traffic flow for about 2 hours out of 24 - for the rest of the day they actively impede the flow of traffic.

Benster

MrPudding wrote:

They cannot use it here due to the amount of red light juming that goes on here. A DCC traffic representative used to be on the George Hook show every Thursday, he was asked several times and that was his response.

That sounds like a bit of a cop-out from DCC if you ask me. Folk will jump red lights if they are of that disposition anyway. The Red+Amber phase is a "get ready" signal from what I remember (open to technical correction there), but up home there are folk who are ready and go at that point as well. Legally, I'm not sure if they are breaking the law going just before green, but they haven't jumped a red.

That brings up another point in favour of the British system - Introducing an extra second or two between red and green on a "Go" signal may reduce the chances of collision with those complete idiots who were supposed to stop at their own red light to let you go, but for their own selfish reasons decide that they don't need to.

As for the enforcement of such rules as 3-phase traffic lights, I totally agree that if there was a competent Garda force who pulled people up for such "minor" infrigements as a matter of course, the levels of jumped lights would start to decline. Everyone behaved for a few months when penalty points started, didn't they?

B.

fiachs

benster - just to say that there's already a couple of seconds of time where all the lights are red at a junction to take into account people cutting through at the very end of their cycle. if the amber was used before going green it'd be in this time I would imagine so no extra time would be allotted for idiots.

Also, loyatemu, Dublin City already uses an intelligent system for the lights, SCATS is used, developed in sydney it's meant to be one of the most advanced control systems there is...

MrPudding

Benster wrote:

That sounds like a bit of a cop-out from DCC if you ask me. Folk will jump red lights if they are of that disposition anyway. The Red+Amber phase is a "get ready" signal from what I remember (open to technical correction there), but up home there are folk who are ready and go at that point as well. Legally, I'm not sure if they are breaking the law going just before green, but they haven't jumped a red.

I don't think it is a cop out at all. The point they are making is very valid. The only thing stopping more people getting creamed at the moment is that green lights seem to catch most people by surprise. If there was an amber before green people would actually move on green and probably run into one of the 5 or 6 assholes that ran the light.

MrP

Benster

fiachs wrote:

benster - just to say that there's already a couple of seconds of time where all the lights are red at a junction to take into account people cutting through at the very end of their cycle. if the amber was used before going green it'd be in this time I would imagine so no extra time would be allotted for idiots.

Yes, I've seen that being applied to more and more junctions. If it was up to me, that delay would stay and the Red+Amber phase would be added on to that. It's not even 2 seconds.

I'll repeat, though, I'm not advocating this as something to increase safety through slowing traffic flow, more to get people out of the habit of watching for the split-second the red goes out and the green lights up. That does not engender a safe attitude to driving, it engenders more of a race-track mentality.

Hmm, I feel a campaign coming on...

Machiavellian B.

frodi

Idiot drivers would learn that when lights go to red that the other side will be moving asap. Natural selection would mean that they would quickly learn to stop for red. Just like they learned that LUAS trams cannot swerve to aviod them.... :eek:

Second thoughts they will never learn, leave things as they are or alternately after about one years carnage all the idiot drivers would be gone.

murphaph

It's not just the UK that uses this sensible system. Much of Europe does too, completely without a song and dance. We're different of course, though strangely the US uses the same sequence as us.

Alun

murphaph wrote:

It's not just the UK that uses this sensible system. Much of Europe does too, completely without a song and dance.

Are you sure? I thought the UK system was pretty much in the minority in mainland Europe. Germany, I seem to remember, uses the UK system, but I can't find any definitive online source that tells what other EU countries do.

EDIT: This wikipedia article says that it's limited to UK, Germany and Poland "among others" whatever that may mean.

SeanW

You can sometimes tell when the light is about to change, if you can see the other light going red - particularly at night.

mike65

What beats me is why peeps can't just observe the sequence? Simple enough.

Mike.

Flukey

You need a warning to slow down, but not to go. Most drivers will watch the other traffic stopping at junctions and use that as a sign that they will get the green light. An amber and red, could even encourage the little boy racers to start revving up and go too soon. I think our system is fine. I have heard that the British system is actually programmed into our traffic lights, but is not used.

John R

fiachs wrote:

Also, loyatemu, Dublin City already uses an intelligent system for the lights, SCATS is used, developed in sydney it's meant to be one of the most advanced control systems there is...

They might have the system but they don't use it in any meaningful way.

Practically every light I regularly go through is on a strict timer only setting that is the same all 24-7. There are a handful of bus priority lights that are triggered by approaching buses and some light traffic junctions that are approach triggered by all vehicles but most lights including all major junctions are just on set timers. It is pathetic.

is_that_so

fiachs wrote:

Also, loyatemu, Dublin City already uses an intelligent system for the lights, SCATS is used, developed in sydney it's meant to be one of the most advanced control systems there is...

But is is actually switched on all the time? Control systems are not as good as intelligent lights. I also wonder why we don't have some lights on flashing amber at night as they do in the US and parts of Europe. I also agree with pulling red light jumpers and I think it would help modify behaviour.

Lennoxschips

I know that in Holland the lights go straight from red to green.

Traffic

I was reading somewhere that there are 630 signilised junction in the DCC area of which 460 junctions are directly controlled by the SCATS computer.

Benster

Flukey wrote:

You need a warning to slow down, but not to go. Most drivers will watch the other traffic stopping at junctions and use that as a sign that they will get the green light. An amber and red, could even encourage the little boy racers to start revving up and go too soon. I think our system is fine. I have heard that the British system is actually programmed into our traffic lights, but is not used.

SeanW wrote:

You can sometimes tell when the light is about to change, if you can see the other light going red - particularly at night.

You shouldn't have to try to second-guess the traffic lights though. You see that in the city centre a lot at pedestrian crossings when drivers don't know the sequence. They see the crossing lane stop and start revving up to set off (or even move a few feet) only to have the green man pop up. Yes, most of the time it's out of impatience, but they were expecting their red light to change straight to green. As I said a few times above, that's a psychological starting pistol at every set of lights.

A lot of traffic lights have larger hoods or grills over the glass specifically to shield their glare from road users who are not meant to be able to see those signals.

HelterSkelter

fiachs wrote:

Also, loyatemu, Dublin City already uses an intelligent system for the lights, SCATS is used, developed in sydney it's meant to be one of the most advanced control systems there is...

Intelligent system my arse. Have you ever driven up Cork street? All the traffic lights on this road change for the minor roads even when there are no cars waiting at the junction. The traffic on the major road (Cork street) is forced to wait for 2 - 3 minutes for no reason.

I also agree with the other poster that said a lot of traffic lights should be switched to flashing amber at night time.

HelterSkelter

MrPudding wrote:

They cannot use it here due to the amount of red light juming that goes on here. A DCC traffic representative used to be on the George Hook show every Thursday, he was asked several times and that was his response. He freely admitted that it would increase the amount of vehicles that were able to pass through lights but it woul dbe too dangerous to implement.

MrP

What a load of crap. We can't change to a more efficient system because people are breaking the law and we don't want to put them out!! It's like saying we can't build a LUAS line because drivers will break the lights at the junctions and crash into it!!

HelterSkelter

Flukey wrote:

You need a warning to slow down, but not to go.

Why not? It's not a warning, it's telling people to release their handbrake, get their car in gear, stop doing their makeup, stop picking their nose and get ready to go.

Flukey wrote:

Most drivers will watch the other traffic stopping at junctions and use that as a sign that they will get the green light.

Most sensible drivers will do that but we shouldn't have to. Implementing the Brit system with the Red & Amber is the same thing but on an official level.

Flukey wrote:

An amber and red, could even encourage the little boy racers to start revving up and go too soon.

If this is the case they will do it anyway by watching the traffic st the other junction as you metioned above

Traffic

Well maybe the scats system should be turned off one morning and then you would see the chaos!

HelterSkelter

What's the story with the green light at some junctions only staying on for two seconds???? One example is the junction of Crumlin Road and St Mary's road. The green light stays on for 2 or 3 seconds max on St Mary's Road. If the person on front is sleeping then nobody gets through. I can't understand why someone would decide to set up the lights like this? Or is it the unintelligent SCATS system??!!

HelterSkelter

Just found this site, makes interesting reading...

http://www.iol.ie/~discover/traffic.htm

The SCATS (Sydney Coordinated Adaptive Traffic System) is used in Dublin City. The system controls some 180 intersections (out of 1,000 odd controllers) in the Dublin Corporation area (incredibly traffic signals in South Dublin and Fingal have no management or coordination system, while Dun Laoghaire/Rathdown plan to introduce SCATS control on a few intersections before 2005).

SCATS gathers data on traffic flows in real-time at each intersection. This data is fed via the traffic control signal box to a central computer. The computer makes incremental adjustments to traffic light timings based on minute by minute changes in traffic flow at each intersection. SCATS performs a vehicle count at each stop line, and also measures the gap between vehicles as they pass through each junction. As the gap between vehicles increases the lights are wasting green time, and SCATS seeks to reallocate green time to where demand is greatest. The SCATS system is also used in many other urban areas including Hong Kong, Sydney (where it originated), Melbourne, and Oakland County (MI).

John R

Traffic wrote:

Well maybe the scats system should be turned off one morning and then you would see the chaos!

LMFAO.

Please, give examples of where this legendary system is in use and how it is different to a regular set timed light?

Again, I know of no major junction that is not on a set timed sequence that remains the same morning, noon and night.

mackerski

Austria and some other countries show a few seconds of flashing green before amber when the lights are due to go red.

Dermot

Traffic

Minimum green is set to a mimimum of 6 seconds no matter if theyre on the scats system or not and knowing that rd, marys rd gets much more than six seconds

Imposter

The system over here in austria is even better imo.
To go the light goes from red to amber to green.
To stop it flashes green 3 times, then goes amber and then red. Virtually nobody runs through red lights as people begin to go on amber. Similarly the last car usually goes through on amber but not always.

Traffic

there are approx 460 junctions currently controlled by scats in d dcc area.

Have a closer look at any junction in town a sign to know if a junction is on scats or not are detection loops in the ground at or just before the stop sign and yes the cycle time and time given to each leg of the junction is continully changing throughout the day depending on traffic flow.

HelterSkelter

Traffic wrote:

Minimum green is set to a mimimum of 6 seconds no matter if theyre on the scats system or not and knowing that rd, marys rd gets much more than six seconds

Definitely not. I've been sitting in the queue on that road many times and have timed 3 seconds. Now I mainly use that junction in the evening after 7pm so maybe it changes at off-peak??

daymobrew

HelterSkelter wrote:

Definitely not. I've been sitting in the queue on that road many times and have timed 3 seconds. Now I mainly use that junction in the evening after 7pm so maybe it changes at off-peak??

Contact the DCC Traffic Control Centre and ask them - 1800-872-345.
You can also use this number to report broken lights (and traffic light bulbs).
[Fingal CC's traffic section web page says that they rely on the public to report problems]

I believe that red light running is a big problem. I've see a few cyclists run the red lights at East Wall Rd/Annesley Road Bridge. They ran them so late I was really surprised that they weren't creamed. It annoys me because it give me, a cyclist, a bad name.

HelterSkelter

daymobrew wrote:

Contact the DCC Traffic Control Centre and ask them - 1800-872-345.
You can also use this number to report broken lights (and traffic light bulbs).

Thanks,I'll do that

jlang

A lot of the older road loops aren't working (damaged by roadworks/correded/whatever) so the computer controlling the lights is working on incomplete information. Also at peak times, the loops basically just always report full traffic backed up on each route, so the system has to just do the best it can - which amounts to running a default pattern that's been tuned over the years.

HelterSkelter wrote:

... 2 or 3 seconds max .... If the person on front is sleeping then nobody gets through.

Some residential areas are set up like this to prevent people using the through roads as rat runs - if it's at the start/end of your journey, you have to do it but if you shouldn't be going that way, the theory is that you'd be put off by waiting at the lights.

Back on the original question of UK style red+amber lights, I think it'd be a great idea, as it's generally the slow off the liners are the same idiots who are impatient enough to run red lights and block yellow boxes. Oh, and we should allow left turn on red after stopping, and also lights changing to green the moment the other light goes amber->red as other countries can manage. With enough publicity, the red light runners would be stopped soon enough. My preferences, but don't think we'll ever see any of it.

MrPudding

jlang wrote:

Oh, and we should allow left turn on red after stopping,

I don’t think you should have left on red. Driver in this country have little enough respect for red lights with out actually telling them they can ignore them.



I think a better solution would be to keep the red and amber but replace the green with the orange flashing arrow. This will allow red light protected pedestrian crossing periods but allow drivers to turn left with caution at other times. To me this just seems more sensible.



MrP

John R

MrPudding wrote:

I don’t think you should have left on red. Driver in this country have little enough respect for red lights with out actually telling them they can ignore them.

I think a better solution would be to keep the red and amber but replace the green with the orange flashing arrow. This will allow red light protected pedestrian crossing periods but allow drivers to turn left with caution at other times. To me this just seems more sensible.

Left on red would effectively mean the abolishment of all pedestrian rights at junctions. A standard red just about stops them running over pedestrians on crossings now, once the same dangerous muppets got used to taking left turns on red lights they would just assert their "right" and push through, pedestrians crossing or not.

I have seen enough drivers start from lights the second they turn green even though the crossing is still occupied by pedestrians.

mackerski

Left-on-red isn't the same as "ignore the lights", though I accept that fine distinctions like that seem to be beyond the ken of most Irish drivers. The main problem with applying this rule in the Irish/British system (and the reason why flashing orange won't help matters much) is that there is no precedent here of expecting to yield to pedestrians when turning. Most countries don't give exclusive green phases to pedestrians - when pedestrians have green, the motorists entering their road have to yield to them.

A blanket "treat as stop" is therefore incompatible with the drivers' assumption that you don't yield to pedestrians on signal-controlled junctions and the pedestrians' assumption that their green phase is not shared with road traffic. An orange arrow could only be shown where cars following it would not impinge on a pedestrian phase - and that would probably limit the value of the exercise.

Dermot

Edit: Germany does an interesting variant on the right-on-red rule, one that originated in the DDR: They stick a Green Arrow onto the side of the traffic light. Where the arrow is provided, you may treat it like a right-on-red. However, unlike the US rule, you are never obliged to exercise the option.

is_that_so

daymobrew wrote:

I've see a few cyclists run the red lights at East Wall Rd/Annesley Road Bridge. They ran them so late I was really surprised that they weren't creamed. It annoys me because it give me, a cyclist, a bad name.

It is alas a regular occurence everywhere as if normal traffic laws don't apply to cyclists.

Andrew Duffy

We have left-on-red in Ireland. It's called a filter light, and by estimate about 50% of motorists don't understand what a combination of a red light and a green left arrow means and either wait while allowed to turn or turn when not allowed to.

HelterSkelter

Andrew Duffy wrote:

We have left-on-red in Ireland. It's called a filter light, and by estimate about 50% of motorists don't understand what a combination of a red light and a green left arrow means and either wait while allowed to turn or turn when not allowed to.

Aaah yes, a classic example is when turning left from Batchelor's Walk onto O'Connell Street. When the lights are green for going straight on and red for turning left there is always some muppet who for whatever reason turns left breaking the lights and nearly creaming the pedestrians out of it who are crossing O'Connell street (the green light is on for the pedestrians to cross).

The people who don't turn left when the filter light is green are generally the ones who stopped too late at the lights and are too far forward to see the filer light. All they can see is the lights at the far side of the junction which don't usually have the left filter light. Even though the people behind them are beeping like crazy and pointing at the filter light, motioning them to turn left the person still refuses to budge!!

MrPudding

mackerski wrote:

A blanket "treat as stop" is therefore incompatible with the drivers' assumption that you don't yield to pedestrians on signal-controlled junctions and the pedestrians' assumption that their green phase is not shared with road traffic. An orange arrow could only be shown where cars following it would not impinge on a pedestrian phase - and that would probably limit the value of the exercise.

My point was that the pedestrian green would not be shared by other road users. It would be exclusive. I agree with you that this country is not ready for the concept of shared greens where pedestrians have priority.

I have to disagree where you say it would be of limited value. You could have a left with caution lit at all times except for the period when pedestrians have a green. Depending on the junction this could make a huge difference to the period when a driver could turn left.

MrP

HelterSkelter

MrPudding wrote:

...You could have a left with caution lit at all times except for the period when pedestrians have a green. Depending on the junction this could make a huge difference to the period when a driver could turn left.

MrP

I have seen this is in operation at some junctions, Tallaght village is one that comes to mind.

MT

As a Northerner I’d have to agree that, if nothing else, the UK sequence has a calming effect on those waiting at lights. When driving down south, I find the sudden change from red to green a bit of a jolt – you’re left feeling that you’re already late! The result is that you feel pressurised into taking off as quickly as possible. Now, maybe this is because I’m used to a different system but in my view, anything that increases stress levels when driving in already heavy traffic can’t be good for road safety.

As for the idea that the sequence can’t be changed because drivers would break the law, such thinking is ridiculously defeatist. Should the outlawing of drink-driving have been kicked into the long grass simply because a past generation mightn’t have liked it and so may have broken the law? Indeed, we’d never make any new laws at all if such logic prevailed. Sorry, change the sequence and make the Gards earn a days pay at some visible junctions.

At least, couldn’t a trial of the UK – is it even something the British came up with? – sequence be carried out at a few selected junctions to assess the impact?

On the state of traffic lights themselves down south, why are there so many different versions in use. Wouldn’t it be more cost effective and aid ease of maintenance if all lights were the same make/design – as is the case in Northern Ireland. The same goes for pedestrian crossing buttons – wouldn’t the one generic device aid ease of use and reduce replacement costs.

Then there’s the problem of leaning lights. So many traffics have begun to ‘weep’ down there I can only assume the foundations were inadequate to begin with. Are contractors skimping on concrete or have the specifications just been bungled? I was driving out west recently and passed through Sligo where a new dual-carriageway is just being finished. Incredibly, however, even before the thing has been opened to traffic a number of the newly erected lights are already leaning over – utter incompetence or what?

Another difference between most of the rest of Europe and the Republic is the lack of a white edged plate around traffic lights. This can increase the visibility of lights particularly when looking into the sun. Yet, for some reason, they’re only in use here and there. Is it the case that there’s no standard set of lights and fittings specified for all local authorities?

Finally, something that could be made a lot more use of in both Ireland and the UK are traffic lights on gantries. These are used everywhere in the Australia and the US and don’t half provide greater visibility of approaching lighted junctions when driving amongst heavy traffic and trucks. They can also be used to display junction signage and so have a dual – cost effective – usage.

Calina

HelterSkelter wrote:

The people who don't turn left when the filter light is green are generally the ones who stopped too late at the lights and are too far forward to see the filer light. All they can see is the lights at the far side of the junction which don't usually have the left filter light. Even though the people behind them are beeping like crazy and pointing at the filter light, motioning them to turn left the person still refuses to budge!!

Not just an issue for filter lights.

They've a groovy little trick in France with small traffic lights at driver level in additional to the normal traffic lights. I do like them having spent the past 4 days driving around various cities in Brittany.

MrPudding

Calina wrote:

Not just an issue for filter lights.

They've a groovy little trick in France with small traffic lights at driver level in additional to the normal traffic lights. I do like them having spent the past 4 days driving around various cities in Brittany.

They are very cool.

MrP

Capt'n Midnight

Back to the original Q.

Turns out that the British system doesn't handle any more traffic. With everyone else's system (no Avdance) you get more amber gamblers who go though on dark amber (red) so overall you the same traffic throughput.

The only difference is that it's a little less stressful for the first driver at the lights. - IF every driver moved off at the same time then it would improve traffic but that won't ever happen here so best to leave things as they are since there would be no nett improvement and probably a lot more accidents when they are introduced.

BTW: have they reprogrammed lights with the new KMPH speeds ? As there are a LOT of lights in sequence that you can go through if you are at the limit or slightly above which you would miss if there is any delay on any of the sections of road. By rewarding people with a red light for driving sensably you will discourage such behaviour.

DubTony

LMAO awwww ... poor thing. Did the bold traffic lights frighten you when they change colour? WAKE UP. If you "get a fright" when the lights turn to green it means you haven't been concentrating on what's going on around you. So put the newspaper down and get with it. Most countries use the simple Green to Red. It's mainly British colonies and ex-colonies that use the Red - Amber - Green setup.

Like most of the rest of the world we rely on drivers to be ready. Adding an Amber sequence wouldn't move traffic any quicker as those who aren't ready now still wouldn't be ready then.

As for SCATS. Sydney is one of those places that doesn't have exclusive pedestrian sequences. Cars and peds share the same green sequence so cars turning must give way. (At least they did in 1990). Maybe why that's why the Sydney Co-ordinated Adaptive Traffic System works in Sydney.

mackerski wrote:

However, unlike the US rule, you are never obliged to exercise the option.

Dermot, in the US you are not obliged to turn right on red. If you're on aroad with just one lane on each side obviously you have to wait when travelling straight ahead. The same is true of 2 lanes each way. There's no obligation to make the turn.

Flashing amber late at night is a great idea. But there are too many morons here who'd just ignore it and tear through the lights expecting everyone else to stop. An alternative would be flashing red on one side and flashing green on the other. This dictates that the major road has right of way while traffic on the minor one can go without sitting at a traffic-less junction for 5 minutes at 3 in the morning.

cyclopath2001

MrPudding wrote:

My point was that the pedestrian green would not be shared by other road users. It would be exclusive. I agree with you that this country is not ready for the concept of shared greens where pedestrians have priority.

I regularly see offences at the Clontarf Road/Alfie Byrne junction. There's a green signal for straight and a red one for right. It's ignored & pedestrians have to jump out of the way.

In New York, vehicles are allowed turn right on red, but must give way to pedestrians. I felt safer crossing the roads there than in Dublin. The respect from taxi drivers was impressive.

Maybe it's because the traffic cops carry guns?

Metrobest

My thoughts are this. The amber light is the most abused light in Ireland. People basically see at as their cue to revv up and speed through the lights, and all road users are guilty of this.

I would abolish the amber and have the lights flash red for about two seconds before they go fully red.