Death on the roads - are we the only ones to blame?

Yugo

Hello all!

In Ireland we are constantly told that speed is the no. 1 cause of road deaths/accidents in Ireland.

Yet according to a Department for Transport survey in the UK, speed is only the seventh most common cause of accidents behind inattention, failure to judge another vehicle’s path or speed, “looked but did not see”, careless/thoughtless or reckless driving and lack of Judgement. (Sunday Times 24 / 4 /2005)

Can the situation be that much different here in Ireland, even with our appalling roads and inept driver training? With the government's plan to privatise the installation and monitoring of speed cameras in Ireland, where 600 are going to installed and monitored by a for-profit company, is this misguided road safety message going to be rammed down our throats even further?

Is the government complicit in our appalling traffic accident statistics by taxing optional safety features such as ESP at the same rate as a set of alloy wheels?

Does the fact that we drive certain cars with smaller engines than ideal (eg, more Focus 1.4 than 1.6s, the non-availability of a new Avensis 1.6 in the UK compared to Ireland) because of VRT rules contribute to road accident statistics in this country?

If so, to what extent and where can we obtain these statistics?

It is my gut feeling that the maintenance of the status quo in terms of taxation/VRT of cars is causing people to be killed and injured on our roads. I also believe that the government is complicit with motor distributors in Ireland in keeping the price of worthwhile safety features artifically high to maintain taxation levels and not affect the value of second hand cars.

In Germany, the German transport minister has declared this year the year of ESP, a technology that Autocar Magazine says would save 50000 lives over the next 10 years if fitted to every new car on sale in the EU now. I wonder does Martin Cullen even knows what ESP is?

How much could it possibly cost a manufacturer to make this feature standard where anti-lock brakes (which are now compulsory on all new cars) are fitted? The electronics are already in place!

My gut tells me we are being duped in this country. Again. This is a story that needs to be told and from what I can see no-one has told it. Maybe I'm wrong.. What does anyone else think? I'd be very interested to hear other peoples views on these points.

Blitzkrieger

What does it stand for? Electronic Stability Program?

It doesn't matter how many safety devices you put on the car - if you make the car safer people will drive faster and neutralise the safety benefit. I'm sure it would save some lives but more driver training is the only answer.

kluivert

Driver training is the way forward.

Coming back from lunch an old man is a fiesta pulls right out in front of me from a petrol station. At a set of traffic lights in town here you come from a one way street to the lights and there's two lanes. Right and Left. The woman in the jeep on the right decides to cut everyone up by suddenly changing direction and swinging a left. Everyone shaking their heads in disbelief.

In Dundalk the other evening theres two lanes on a one way street, Blue new type mini in front of me. Grand. Mini takes the left lanes as you approach the old Louth Hospital building in Dundalk (as if heading for Adree rather than Carrickmacross) and I knew by the way the driver was driving that there was a chance that she would swap lanes at the last minute because she kept crossing the white line infront of me. And at the junction she does stop (Stop Sign: Yield) she ploughs straight and cuts me up at the same time.

The list goes on, simple matter is that people are unaware, careless of their surroundings, they can drive a car thats the easy bit but they cant drive with the skill to be a carefull and aware drivers.

People are a danger to hemselves and this is the way its always going to be.

One bit of advise learn to read to drivers moves in advance, try and work out their driving styling are they hard brakes, heavy on the accelrator, wiving across the road, look out for danger signs and you'll arrive alive.

One last thing....I have had more near misses in same towns lin Monaghan and especially Dundalk than Dublin City. All Dublin would be 100% more busier than Dundalk or Monaghan.

Interceptor

Yes Yugo, everything you say is true. We are a revenue generating segment of the community and the gov't don't care how they get the money from us so long as it keeps coming. They need to outweigh the loss of revenue from the smoking ban somehow and we will pick up the tab (so to speak) by paying more speeding fines. We drive the lowest spec, most overpriced cars in the world on roads that would put Afghanistan to shame. We buy houses in Mullingar and commute to work in Dublin on roads most UK farmers wouldn't walk sheep on and we put up with it because it isn't going to change today or tomorrow.

And Blitzkrieger is also right, people drive faster when they perceive their cars are safer. Most people don't know how to use ABS and won't press their brakes hard enough in an accident situation for ABS to be of benefit.

If certain politicians said motorists should have to wear eggboxes and drive flourescent yellow cars, people would still vote for them in the next election. Enjoy it while it lasts.

'c

mike65

The cause of all road deaths bar acts of God is bad driving. Stick a spike out of every steering wheel boss and see fatality rates dive to near Zero.

Mike.

dawballz

IMO the cause of a lot of accidents is bad driving, and our such poor roads.

Being realistic, if the roads were better, there WOULD be less accidents.
I do a lot of travelling around the country and see my fair share of roads, most of which are very poor.

For motorcyclists, the biggest cause of accidents is probably dirt/grit/sand/stones/muck on the road.

mike65

Blaming the roads does'nt get us far though. We all know Irish roads including N routes are, by and large substandard. Therefore its beholden on all of us to drive on them in an appropriate fashion.

Has anyone who crashed on a poor road "got off" a charge of careless driving cos the road was bad? Nope. We are expected to drive within the limits of our car, talent and environment.

Mike.

Yugo

I couldn't agree more that a lot of accidents are caused by bad driving and that improved driver training could help massively.(How many times have you been held up on the M50 by someone in the outside lane doing 50, with a clear lane to the left?) I also agree that it's our responsibility to drive in an appropriate fashion for the conditions.

I couldn't disagree more with the idea that driver aids/safety features don't work or that people automatically drive around them. They patently do work. In the '70's road death's in Ireland were above 600 in some years and don't forget that there were many, many fewer cars on the road then.The roads themselves were also even worse than they are now.
ABS works, ESP works, Airbags work, seatbelts work. They all save some lives.

If you think about it, this also gives the lie to the blanket notion that speed kills anyhow, as cars were much slower then too. (although I suppose you could argue that increased traffic has reduced average journey speeds esp. in Dublin, I dunno.)

Anyway, my principle point is that the VRT regime in Ireland contributes at some level to the amount of accidents on the road - it may not be the primary factor and probably isn't. But the fact is we don't know.

Your safety and the safety of those with you is primarily your own responsibility when you're driving. That's a given. However, to what extent after that are our fates decided by the actions of the government whether it be the state of the roads or sub-optimal specification on some of our cars?

Are lives being lost on whim of a cost benefit analysis?

BTW - I don't advocate excessively fast driving either. I do think the focus of road safety campaigns on speed is misguided. The notion of potentionally being penalised for driving at 85mph on a clear motorway is complete nonsense. I'd be all on for a reduction in speed limits in urban areas, though and increased Garda presence on National routes - the 2 lane type- these are the real killer roads, in my view.

Sorry for being so damn longwinded!!

kluivert

Well Said.

And this is true.

Has anyone ever compared the safety specs of a Toyota Corrolla of a UK Car to an Irish Car. There's way more safety features ie more airbags etc, than the Irish equivlent. And they are roughly the same cost but the UK car is a higher spec all round. Why? due to VRT being so high here.

This gentleman has a very good point.

John R

Blitzkrieger wrote:

It doesn't matter how many safety devices you put on the car - if you make the car safer people will drive faster and neutralise the safety benefit.

That's a statement I hear alot but it isn't really true. I do not believe people drive faster now than 10-15 years ago when I was starting to drive. The cars are far safer now but there has certainly not been a huge increase in speed, if anything I find myself driving on or below the speed limit due to others driving much more nowadays.

Cars have more or less reached a performance plateau now and it is performance and the sensation of speed that gives people the confidence to drive faster as normal.

The ability of cars to sustain damage while keeping occupants safe on the other hand has increased greatly but I do not believe this has much of an effect on the speed of driving.

The whole issue of zero tolerance on speed limits while ignoring inappropriate speed and all the other dangerous habits is disgraceful but what do you expect from a bunch of media whores whose only goal is to appear to be doing good in order to get re-elected (while twisting the system to make a nice retirement fund for themselves on the side, of course). The disgusting practice of taxing life saving safety equipment as luxury goods is just the icing on the cake.

In_the_sea

You can drive safely but your only 50% safe ever!!! Some clown might be driving bad and kill you!
Foreign cars are driving wrecklessly. the other day a holiday maker overtook a string of cars, they were all going 100kmph and he had no space to pull in from the direct path of another car..Then the stupid twat overtook another car on the brow of a hill with a lorry approaching from the other side. if this isnt stupidity i dont know what it!!! the gards can do as much as they want for going 62 in a 60 zone but where are they when this happens??? F''ck privatised speed cameras, catch these w@*kers who just dont cop on!!
If you think about it, imagine a loved one who was a really careful driver driving home and they were hit head on by some clown overtaking a string of cars going nowhere and had no need to overtake! Car crashes are absolutely horrible things to be in. The whole front of your loved ones car was pushed in and their whole body mutilated and they screaming screaming with the pain. then they die..Is some stupid f**ckin clown doing something so unneccesary worth leaving on the road to do this to someone you love. Think of it.
There have been people driving home, and a lorry with some cheap labour driver overtaking a tractor on a main road, hit the person driving head on. The results whoever was in the car dead on impact and pieces of brain, body parts splattered on the road....

Now, to any1 who speeds and drives dangerously, cop on to yourself you stupid f**ks!!! You should be off the roads for life!! Get your act together.
the government focus too much on minor offences!! They focus on drink driving more than extremely dangerous driving which in my opinion kills more than drink driving. Why dont they start screening for druggies aswell as drunks??? Oh I forgot some bill has to be passed that takes ages to pass where between now and then loads of more people will be killed, ah but sur mary harney and others know best! :mad:

Alun

I agree. Often on here you read stories from people complaining of aggressive, speeding motorists carving them up at every opportunity, and if the government are to be believed these are the people that need to be targetted. Well, yes, it does happen and they should, of course, be targetted, but in my experience this kind of thing happens very rarely.

What I see much more of, many times per day, are displays of total and utter incompetence and ignorance. We all know what we're talking about here, there have been enough threads in recent years detailing everyone's Top Ten Pet Hates, and I see several examples of all of these every single day.

In_the_sea

Alun, I agree with you and Im glad you can see where I am coming from I think a lot of people dont have the guts to talk out and do something about your guts being cut open at 120mphs impact and being splattered on the roads by some f::ckin **** driving needlessly dangerously.
The other day I seen some too careful women in her 60s driving just over 60kmph in a 60 zone and i seen a camera which i was aware of take a pic. What the f**k??? She wasnt going to splatter someones brains on the road or anything yet its because of this she and many others are going to turn against the gardais campaigns and rebel to it to some degree. many people like to drive and speed because they consider themselves rebels!!! ITs true, part of human psyche. I think there needs to be a major programme introduced to this dark age situation to save your loved ones from the large possibility that they will be screaming so loudly youd cry, and they're whole face mutilated and body cut open by the metal from "outside" the car, from this s%it!!!!!
ITs reality people. you think a crash is a crash and you die like you drown, but you ever see cars after being in crashes? Think of your gf, mother, father brother sister in that car? think of how they looked in that car when it happened and after they said good bye and have a good day to you..its so sad im upset!! I would call dangerious drivers potential murderers, man slaugher!!! ministers, stop talkin sh*t and start doing your bit!! :mad:

HelterSkelter

Lads,

the National Safety Countil is funded, supported and run by vested interests. It is in their interest to blame accidents on the motorist to justify the current very high insurance premiums Irish motorists pay. They will never tackle the real issues as long as this goes on.

Take a look where the funding comes from:
http://www.nsc.ie/RoadSafety/Sponsors/

The chairman of the National Safety Council is the Director of underwriting in Hibernian!!:
http://www.nsc.ie/Aboutus/Council/Roadsafetycommittee/

The Government and Gardai are happy to allow them blame everything on speed, this justifies their silly speed checks on dual carriageways and motorways which brings in tons of revenue but saves no lives. It's like shooting fish in a barrell.

In_the_sea

Well id prefer my higher premium to go towards saving my kids life and my families life in the future. but is this a way of jusifying high premium rates???
Its like well say to them high rates are to promote safety and they cant argue!

ITs just like that film kindergarten cop when the bad lads mother was buying a load of vitamin talblets he says to her "why do you have to buy all this crap, you shuved it down my throat for years and there was nothing wrong with me!"
The mother replies, "that's why there was nothing wrong with you"
He says "how can you argue with that?"

Thats this scenario!! We cant argue if the high rates are towards safety but are young careful drivers paying for safety a lot higher than an unsafe murderouus driver in his 40s that hasnt been detected and a potential killer?

Its all about money! safety is like small talk besides money. It just has to be said for keep sake!

Capt'n Midnight

mike65 wrote:

The cause of all road deaths bar acts of God is bad driving. Stick a spike out of every steering wheel boss and see fatality rates dive to near Zero.

Mike.

I totally disagree.

It should be a harpoon.


Almost every percieved improvement in safety for cars drivers has caused a increased risk to other road users. Better handling, bakes, ABS, seat belts, air bags SUVs, better wet weather tyres etc. all mean drivers feel safer than before and so the risk treshold, before they feel fear is higher.

This means that while a driver may can go around a blind corner (for example) faster than in the old days and be just as (un)certain of stopping/not being in mortal danger as in the old days, the same cannot be said of the animal / pedistarian / cyclist who now has a lot less time to get out of the way.

SUV's are no safer for the occupant than other cars in the same price bracket, but are up to 6 times more dangerous to other road users.

mike65

Its an automotive arms race...

Mike.

OLDYELLAR

I thoroughly agree that most car accidents are caused by mindless and bad driving , driving from waterford to kilkenny the other evening going through a 50 mile zone some complete tw*t decides to overtake me on a bend now I was just doing 50 which meant he was doing a lot more especially the speed he over took me at , also I had just pulled out at a junction was stopped there and there was no other cars as far as i could see , he came flying out of nowhere , now if something had been coming around the bend from the other direction , myself and the other car coming around the bend could of been killed because of this mindless f*cker driving like a maniac .No way could roads be blamed there.
Its a complete joke anyway ,the penalty points an all the rest of it , people are still driving like maniacs and the guards are too busy hiding in a layby out at some backa*se pub waitin for a lad to come out after a few pints , Im in no way condoning drink driving but there needs to be more speed camera`s or more guards around or something because these guys are getting away with driving like this and one day it could be you or me on the other side of that bend who end up 6foot under because some d*ck gets his kicks by thinking his Micheal Schumacher driving a golf around.

unkel

Welcome to boards, Yugo and a nice first post to boot

First off, the driving competence of many Irish drivers (and indeed of some non-national drivers in Ireland) is appalling. I don't blame them, they were never properly trained. I believe this is the biggest killer on the roads and could very well explain the comparatively huge number of road deaths in this very thinly populated country. Don't we have the highest number of meters of road per capita in Europe?

Most safety features do help reducing death toll. Proof is that road deaths have steadily decreased throughout Europe for decades

I fully agree that ESP should be installed in all European cars too

The Capt'n has a point about perceived safety though. I remember the first statistics published in Germany a few years after the introduction of ABS on top model BMWs and Mercedes. The number of accidents the cars with ABS were involved in had not gone down. I believe that for all cars it will make a difference. Also making cars less damaging to other road users upon impact

Your most important point though imho is the non-availability or very limited availability of statistical data on accidents (Europe wide) with data on safety features, etc

mike65 wrote:

We are expected to drive within the limits of our car, talent and environment

I wish it were so, Mike. Unfortunately we are expected to drive within the speed limit period

CJhaughey

Regardless of who is to blame all motorists will find that the new unmarked garda cars due next year and privatised speed cameras will prove to be a great source of revenue for the Govt in the next while.
I think that the unmarked cars are a great idea as long as the gardai driving them are properly trained, and haven't been watching Bullitt or the Dukes of Hazzard too much.

OLDYELLAR

CJhaughey wrote:

Regardless of who is to blame all motorists will find that the new unmarked garda cars due next year and privatised speed cameras will prove to be a great source of revenue for the Govt in the next while.
I think that the unmarked cars are a great idea as long as the gardai driving them are properly trained, and haven't been watching Bullitt or the Dukes of Hazzard too much.

Ha dukes of Hazzard I love it , Most of the guards up where Im from anyway I doubt they`d fit in through the window of a car

In_the_sea

Well you see the few miles that mary harney takes up, thats the money the government make out of tax payers lol
i heard from a family mem 2nite another scenario where their life could have been claimed if they were a few seconds earlier at a destination. Not on and the government will make a load of money on speed fines!
Wouldnt it be great if there was a natural, safer way to get to destinations like teleporting.lol dream on.
I mean the government are loosing smokers, thats why they didnt increase tobacco costs in the budget this year im sure. they make massive money on smokers. mary harney can have all the ham in the world as we puff our lives away, now as we are speeding she can have a ham and cheese sandwich. Ohh shes living the life boy! :mad: :cool:
I wonder what does she give to us taxpayers in return, probably just a load of "excretion", in the form of words she knw a lot about that and helps a lot. I hope she continues

heggie

do you think mary harney is minister for transport or are you just fascinated with her?

stratos

Speed never killed anyone.
Stopping abruptly and unexpectantly does though.
The above is just a light hearted comment. Driving all day I see some amazingly bad driving. People don't anticipate or even seem to notice whats going on around them. There are no manners on the road anymore ( though I'm trying to pioneer it). People don't adjust their driving to the prevailing conditions, they drive to close to each other, they are impatient, they don't indicate, they use their phones at junctions, they pull out in front of you and then drive slowly, they overtake on blind bends. It goes on and on.
I have no idea how to solve the problem. When cars were first built it was thought only a small per centage of the population would be able to drive, as it was deemed a skilled task that not all would be able to master. How right they were!!!!!!!

In_the_sea

stratos wrote:

Speed never killed anyone.
Stopping abruptly and unexpectantly does though.
The above is just a light hearted comment. Driving all day I see some amazingly bad driving. People don't anticipate or even seem to notice whats going on around them. There are no manners on the road anymore ( though I'm trying to pioneer it). People don't adjust their driving to the prevailing conditions, they drive to close to each other, they are impatient, they don't indicate, they use their phones at junctions, they pull out in front of you and then drive slowly, they overtake on blind bends. It goes on and on.
I have no idea how to solve the problem. When cars were first built it was thought only a small per centage of the population would be able to drive, as it was deemed a skilled task that not all would be able to master. How right they were!!!!!!!

Your dead on the ball stratos. That post pretty much sums up all the problems on the road! Driving too close, well this sums that up i was looking at a lorry one day and the car behind looked like it was connected to it lol :cool:

AMurphy

Yugo wrote:

Hello all!

.....

Is the government complicit in our appalling traffic accident statistics by taxing optional safety features such as ESP at the same rate as a set of alloy wheels?

Does the fact that we drive certain cars with smaller engines than ideal (eg, more Focus 1.4 than 1.6s, the non-availability of a new Avensis 1.6 in the UK compared to Ireland) because of VRT rules contribute to road accident statistics in this country?

......

This debate has gone on for well on 10 years per my reconing. Which is about the time it takes for the gov to even recognize there is a possibility of any truth behind the debate, unfortunate but true.

due to the overall tax effectively doubling the price of the car ex-works. most drive cars just strong enough the get into trouble, but not strong enough to get out of it thereafter. Manufacturers strip out many of the std features, so as to be competitive or sell any vehicle. So while foreign LX models may have ABS, Airbags, etc, your LX has an engine, gearbox and brakes, consider yourself lucky.

So yes it contributes directly to the mayhem as too small an engine gets fitted to too heavy a car. Then you have someone hitch up the 2 horse trailer to it and it makes matters only worse add to that the excellent roads and you have a party in motion.

Then you add to all this the overall bad driving std and you have a lethal mix.

I believe one of the main reasons people drive so badly is they have no real training or experience. They never think of the "knock on effects", its just impulse driving, eg, Oops, I missed my turn, make an immediate U turn, even if on a turn. Considerations of obstructions to others, safety, etc go out the window. Realy a me-me-me mentality.

Most or all of ye in one way or another have highlighted the pandemic.
However the Guards/Police do not see what you are seeing (yet). so putting silent cruisers on the road may nab a few cretins, but will I believe have little effect.
The main reason it will have no effect if people will be fined and never know or understand why. You may as well come up to them in the street and slap or rob them at random.

Training is required, better roads would help a lot also.

Some one of ye mentioned someone cutting left across them, same thing happened to me in Dub. I'm at a light where 2 lanes turn left. I'm left most and the other car to my right. On the green, the car to my right, just cut across my hood and into some parking space to my left. Hooting at this person drew a reaction of brain dead or "where the hell did you cone from". They did not see me, what I was doing or anything else, all they saw was an empty parking space and their own car & need.

Anyway, that why, not only do you need to be managing your own car but the cars about you as well.... all I can say is good luck.

Capt'n Midnight

stratos wrote:

Speed never killed anyone.

Ever hear of "Hit and Run" ?

Motorists aren't the only road users, http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/1999/08/18/ihead_80.htm Despite the record growth, car ownership figures in Ireland are among the lowest in Europe.
The ratio of cars per head of population is 30 per 100, ok that was 1999, point is that more people cycle or walk across our roads each day than drive on them (especially if you incude drivers that walk too) .

In_the_sea

Speeding is the cause of a lot of accidents its the root of it to be honest. If people didnt speed they could control situations a lot more and more serious accidents could be avoided. however getting a whole nation to safely drive is a bit of a challenge!! It will take one good person on the government to make a difference!!

mackerski

In_the_sea wrote:

Speeding is the cause of a lot of accidents its the root of it to be honest. If people didnt speed they could control situations a lot more and more serious accidents could be avoided.

This is an oversimplified view of things. There are plenty of drivers who assume that by staying within the prevailing speed limit, they are automatically driving safely, with no further obligation to keep a safe distance, observe what's around them etc. In particular, there's a worrying lack of realisation that a wet, greasy, icy or leafy road may require you to drive well below the speed limit to be safe.

We need to bring some honesty to this issue. Let's remember:

* There are plenty of situations where being within the speed limit doesn't mean your speed is safe.

* There are plenty (yes, plenty) of situations where being in excess of the speed limit doesn't mean your speed is dangerous (except to your pocket and points-tally).

* Driving at a safe speed is no use unless you also drive in a safe fashion. Furthermore, the instincts required for driving in a safe fashion will prevent a driver from choosing to drive at an unsafe speed (whether within the limit or otherwise).

So why do all the safety campaigns ignore the far more compelling message of safe driving? And why would a bad driver change his ways if every safety message allows him to think, "I'm alright, Jack, I always drive within the speed limit."? It's like bringing your car for NCT, having the tester check your tyre pressure and leaving the rest up to luck.

Dermot

In_the_sea

mackerski wrote:

This is an oversimplified view of things. There are plenty of drivers who assume that by staying within the prevailing speed limit, they are automatically driving safely, with no further obligation to keep a safe distance, observe what's around them etc. In particular, there's a worrying lack of realisation that a wet, greasy, icy or leafy road may require you to drive well below the speed limit to be safe

I agree with you but I was saying simply that speeding is a very common result of accidents. if you were overtaking a tractor at a high speed and on the other side there was an oncoming car not far from you, if you were going slow enough and they were too, youd have better control. This applies to all siuations. Tailgating is dangerous too!very. but driving too slow is another "annoyance" which should get penalty points too! If you cant keep up to the speed limit at least you should not be let on the road as this is an annoyance to people who drive the speed limit and need to get to a place on time. When you are annoyed behind a slow, annoying driver who stops and brakes uneccessarily, you are more prone to overtake even in dangerous bends. Slow drivers deserve penalty points too, or get a a warning where they are notified that they're driving is an annoyance to other drivers. After all for your driving test you get detucted for being too fast and too hesitant, a balance is necessary to make driving easier for everyone. so people shoulnt focus on speeding more than too slow. Also I think tractors should have restrictions put on them. There has been instances where I have been well on my side and a tractor coming head on is so wide it takes up half my lane.
If farmers are complaing about roads being proposed going through their farmland, well I say to them that the roads arent wide enough for their tractors so stay off them!!! YOur an annoyance to others and a life risking hazard to many!!!

mackerski

In_the_sea wrote:

If you cant keep up to the speed limit at least you should not be let on the road as this is an annoyance to people who drive the speed limit and need to get to a place on time.

Hadn't we already agreed that it isn't always safe to drive to the full extent of the limit?

Dermot

In_the_sea

yes I agree in some instances like bad road conditions etc. but if you are driving 40 miles an hour on a main road in perfect weather conditions, it's uncalled for! thats where Im coming from.

unkel

mackerski wrote:

* There are plenty of situations where being within the speed limit doesn't mean your speed is safe.

* There are plenty (yes, plenty) of situations where being in excess of the speed limit doesn't mean your speed is dangerous (except to your pocket and points-tally).

My sentiments too. Surely all of us can see the common sense in a complete shift in government policy from being anal about speed checks to the real issue: enabling people to drive properly

Stop this L-driver dinosaur of a system right now! People should only ever drive if:

1. They have a full driving license
2. They are being instructed by a qualified and accountable professional driving instructor in a fully dual control enabled vehicle

Again, I hasten to state that I do not, in any way, blame L drivers driving unaccompanied. It is not your fault, it is the fault of the system

Victor

You mistake cause with effect.

The above factors cause accidents, the speed kills people.

unkel

Victor wrote:

You mistake cause with effect.

The above factors cause accidents, the speed kills people.

Sure enough, Victor. A very experienced and competent driver could possibly drive at speeds vastly exceeding the speed limits on some roads under certain circumstances without imposing an increased risk to himself / herself or others

Seth Brundle

Correct me if Im wrong but there is no concise analysis of what caused fatal 'accidents' kept in this country. Speed is used as the reason in many cases but may not necessarily be the true cause.

mackerski

kbannon wrote:

Correct me if Im wrong but there is no concise analysis of what caused fatal 'accidents' kept in this country. Speed is used as the reason in many cases but may not necessarily be the true cause.

At some level, "speed" is always the cause. Except for spontaneously exploding cars, an accident occurs because of motion. Logging speed as the cause may not be a useful analysis, though, because the only lesson you can extract is that of "drive more slowly". Removed from context, that isn't helpful.

If a car spins off the road at a bend at 3am and hits a tree, you might attribute it to driver inattention. Assuming the driver was being alert, the other possibility is that he just drove around the bend too damn fast. So was this caused by speed, or was it caused by failing to react to road conditions. I'll go with the latter, since it's the ingredient that could do most to avoid similar accidents in the future.

Dermot

ssh

I seem to remember reading that something like 80% of fatal road accidents happen within the speed limit. I remember it was on the NRA site, but I can't find it anymore. I'll dig some more, maybe it'll turn up.

Looking around most of Dublin, the speed limits in residential areas are too high (~40Km/h is irresponsible in a housing estate) and just about any other road is far too low. Motorways could safely be increased by 20Km/h, the Stillorgan dual carraigeway should be 80Km/h especially if they put proper barriers along the centre of it.

Speed cameras really only tackle a minor portion of the road safety problem. They don't do anything to stop drunk drivers, joy riders... they don't even do anything to stop a speeder on his way to a fatal accident. All they do is punish him the day after. I'd feel happier about them if the government just came out and said "We like fleecing motorists" rather than dressing it up in some fancy philanthropy.

Ultimately, you're never going to reduce road deaths to zero unless you ban cars. The question really is whether or not a given set of policies a) genuinely help the problem and b) are worth the increase in journey times for its citizens.

Anyway, my question is:

Is there any kind of motoring group which actually challenges the road safety policy of the government?

Seth Brundle

@ mackerski - speed isn't a cause. Inappropriate speed is.
However, is the car which spins off at 3am due to inappropriate speed, tiredness, drink/drugs, lack of observation...

As for ncreasing the speed limits by 20kmph - I would like this to happen but I don't think Irish drivers are ready for it. We need to be in a situation where numpties are removed from the road first.

Over the last two weekends I drive to Belfast and up to Leitrim from Leixlip. I found both journeys to be relatively stressful because of all the muppets on the road. On these, I passed cars which were weaving and/or using really really poor lane positions, had drivers chatting on phones, encountered traffic delays for stupid reasons (some idiot driving at 30mph on the N3 who would not let anyone pass), I had people brake suddenly when approaching speed cameras despite their speed being under the limit. I could go on and on! The cream on the cake was the dickhead in Virginia in the 04 Audi A6 who pulled right out in front of me causing me to both brake suddenly and move into the oncoming lane to avoid an incident. He never looked and I don't think he was even aware of my presence. Im really starting to hate driving in this country - I never thought I would say it!

ssh wrote:

Is there any kind of motoring group which actually challenges the road safety policy of the government?

Do we even have a safety policy?

DubTony

ssh wrote:

Looking around most of Dublin, the speed limits in residential areas are too high (~40Km/h is irresponsible in a housing estate) and just about any other road is far too low. Motorways could safely be increased by 20Km/h, the Stillorgan dual carraigeway should be 80Km/h especially if they put proper barriers along the centre of it.

That brings to mind the "special" speed limit of 30km/h. Has anyone actually seen it used anywhere? The Stillorgan dual carraigeway has too many houses, garages and turns off it to increase the limit. But another "special" limit of 70km/h would be more appropriate, as it seems to me whenever I use that it's about the average speed.

ssh

DubTony wrote:

That brings to mind the "special" speed limit of 30km/h. Has anyone actually seen it used anywhere? The Stillorgan dual carraigeway has too many houses, garages and turns off it to increase the limit. But another "special" limit of 70km/h would be more appropriate, as it seems to me whenever I use that it's about the average speed.

Point taken about the houses... but from the UCD bridge up until the Montrose, it should certainly be 80Km/h. The only junctions are controlled by traffic lights. The same applies to certain stretches of the N11 - they used to be 50 Mph, no idea any more.

mackerski

DubTony wrote:

That brings to mind the "special" speed limit of 30km/h. Has anyone actually seen it used anywhere?

Not in this country. Nor have I ever seen the special limit of 120 applied to any non-motorway, nor the special limit of 100 applied on any non-national road. I'm not holding my breath either.

Dermot

MrPudding

Blitzkrieger wrote:

What does it stand for? Electronic Stability Program?

It doesn't matter how many safety devices you put on the car - if you make the car safer people will drive faster and neutralise the safety benefit. I'm sure it would save some lives but more driver training is the only answer.

I agree that driver training must improve in this country, it is a disgrace at the moment.

I was not sure of the point is ESP until Tiff Needell did a demo in a car on a frozen lake. It was very impressive.

MrP

Type 17

Around the world, engineers and those who work in the business of road-safety agree that most of the deaths on the roads can be distilled into the 3 E's (and here is how Ireland handles them):

Education: Ireland has a driving test (of sorts)... :rolleyes:

Engineering: We have the Irish road network to drive on... :eek:

Enforcement: We have a load of vested interests trying to tell us that speed kills, and nothing else matters :mad:

Now you know why most of the posts above sound so familiar, and make so much sense.

---

Slogan for when the Privatised Speed Cameras arrive:

Capt'n Midnight

Type 17 wrote:

Education: Ireland has a driving test (of sorts)... :rolleyes: [/IMG]

We don't have a driving test.

Oh yes there is an optional test that most people do eventually, but it isn't compulsary, so we might as well not have one, because it doesn't act to keep people who can't drive off the roads.

Out of the 400,000 on provisionals, how many people were prosecuted for the single offense of driving beyond the conditions on thier provisional license ?
(excluding cases where there were other charges)

unkel

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

We don't have a driving test.

Oh yes there is an optional test that most people do eventually, but it isn't compulsary

One can't put it more satirical than that, Capt'n. Unfortunately it is all too true

Blitzkrieger

John R wrote:

That's a statement I hear alot but it isn't really true.

Time and time again on boards I post scientifically proved facts and you can set your watch by someone piping up with some variation of "I disagree with your opinion". It doesn't matter how well-informed your opinion is; it doesn't matter how many studies support you; when you come out with a rule like "women can't drive as well as men" you get all sorts of ill-informed twits crawling out of the woodwork to give their two pence. It's why I've more or less given up posting on boards. That and the same topics crop up week after week.

It is true. It's not an opinion and you can disagree that the sky is blue all you like it doesn't make it less true (even if it is sort of grey right now. I know there are exceptions to every rule. I know that ESP would save lives but it would have limited impact.

This part is my opinion : ESP works very much 'on the limit' of the cars so by the time it kicks in in an emergency situation, wouldn't you already be fooked?



This isn't a personal attack - @ John - I counted three people refuting my 'opinion' before I got bored and went back to work.

blastman

Blitzkrieger wrote:

Time and time again on boards I post scientifically proved facts and you can set your watch by someone piping up with some variation of "I disagree with your opinion". It doesn't matter how well-informed your opinion is; it doesn't matter how many studies support you; when you come out with a rule like "women can't drive as well as men" you get all sorts of ill-informed twits crawling out of the woodwork to give their two pence. It's why I've more or less given up posting on boards. That and the same topics crop up week after week.

It is true. It's not an opinion and you can disagree that the sky is blue all you like it doesn't make it less true (even if it is sort of grey right now. I know there are exceptions to every rule. I know that ESP would save lives but it would have limited impact.

This part is my opinion : ESP works very much 'on the limit' of the cars so by the time it kicks in in an emergency situation, wouldn't you already be fooked?



This isn't a personal attack - @ John - I counted three people refuting my 'opinion' before I got bored and went back to work.

Sorry, I must have missed the post on this thread where you posted scientifically proven facts, doubtless linked to the source material.

I also don't see what you're trying to say in the opinion part of this post. ESP works on the limit of the car, maybe, that doesn't mean that you have to be doing 200kmh on country roads, though. You could be driving relatively slowly on wet or icy roads (as mentioned in the thread) and the ESP will be helping to keep you out of the ditch.

Yugo

I can't see your proof either, Blitzkrieger or any facts in what you say to support your opinion. I believe you are wrong on this point.

From personal experience ESP has got me out of at a few sticky situations in the last five years that I can think of. One involved what turned out to be black ice, another involved invisible criminal deterioration in road surface while overtaking - not involving high speed either I might add.

Check out the following links:

http://www.daimlerchrysler.com/dccom/0,,0-5-7180-1-465601-1-0-0-0-0-0-8668-7165-0-0-0-0-0-0-0,00.html

Also from [URL=http://]http://www.bosch.com.au/content/language1/html/3401.htm[/URL] 'a Daimler-Chrysler study based on data from the Federal Office of Statistics shows that after ESP® was fitted as standard, the proportion of Mercedes-Benz cars involved in serious single car accidents fell by around 42 percent'

From [url]www.whnet.com:-[/url]
Does ESP reduce accidents?
Mercedes accidents declined 42% when ESP was introduced. Serious accidents declined even faster by 66%. Similar numbers were found in Japan and Sweden. NHTSA studied accidents in five states and found passenger cars with ESP (many of them Mercedes) single car accidents dropped by 35% while fatal accidents dropped 30%. They also studied SUVs: ML320, ML430, ML350, ML500, G500, G55 AMG. Single vehicle accidents declined by 67% and fatal crashes by 63%. The IIHS studied ESP and found it reduced all accidents by 7% and all fatal accidents by 34%. Single vehicle accidents were reduced by 41% and fatal single vehicle accidents by 56%. ESP is thus as important as other Mercedes safety innovations like seat belts and probably more important than airbags.

That's just from a 5 minute search on google. Admittedly, these are from sites such as Damiler Chrysler and Bosch - 'They would say that wouldn't they' however, the research itself is independent..

Blitzkrieger

*Sigh

I have no intention of linking to source articles. TBH if I cared that much, I could just fake them. I orginally saw it on a documentary on channel 4 which isn't that easy to link to anyway. Even if I could link to other articles I saw in magazines there'd still be people who wouldn't believe me. Some people just refuse to consider any viewpoint other than their own.

What's the point?

Boggle

The cause of all road deaths bar acts of God is bad driving. Stick a spike out of every steering wheel boss and see fatality rates dive to near Zero.

Mike.

If that were the case tin-foil cars such as colts, civvy's, etc. would be proven to be the safest cars on the roads and in fact be safer than a merc... they're not.