National Service!

magpie

I was watching this terrible reality TV show on ITV last night called "Bad Lads Army", where they take a bunch of scobes, dib-dabs, knacks, thieves and general human detritus and subject them to National Service-style discipline and training "Like wot they 'ad in the 50s".

And it struck me, what a great idea - let's bring in 2 years mandatory National Service for everyone between the ages of 18-20 (you are of course exempted by attending university).

1) It would teach the Irish 'yoof' some discipline
2) There's a good chance the general population of undesirables would be reduced through accidents with firearms and/or hostile action if we can get them into some nasty UN hotspots.

Who's with me?

Praetorian

Terrible idea for the general population. Will never happen in my life time.

Possibly not a bad idea for persistant offenders. We do have a lot of scum in Ireland.

magpie

Terrible idea for the general population

You'll note that anyone in 3rd level education is exempt - only the detritus will have to do it.

CiaranC

Yeah, we could have it so if the parents earn over a certain amount or have an address on the southside of Dublin they are also exempt!

/me ducks

county

yes lets put these yobs in the army and teach they to kill :rolleyes:

magpie

Yeah, we could have it so if the parents earn over a certain amount or have an address on the southside of Dublin they are also exempt!

That's a good idea, except you'd have to be very specific about the areas of exemption - there are nice parts of the Northside and parts of the Southside that are overrun with scobe vermin.

Anyway, the 3rd level exemption would cover it nicely

yes lets put these yobs in the army and teach they to kill

Thye know how to do that anyway, ever been to Limerick? The idea is to brutalise them into unthinking conformity, like in the good old days. Teach them their place and make them happy shelf-stackers, petrol-pump attendants, exhaust fitters etc who will wring their caps in their hands and mumble in the presence of their betters, the officer class etc.

supersheep

Are you mad? Make it compulsory for persistent offenders? Teaching people who are already criminals how to kill? And don't say they know already - yeah they can kill someone from a few metres, but give them military training and they'll be able to kill from a few hundred metres. They'll also be much better at street-fighting, and know how to kill there too. As for the brutalising them into obedience, dunno if it'll work... Also, it would mean the army would get five times larger (ten if women are conscripted too), and it hardly has enough money as it is.
If you're bringing in National Service, make attendance at University dependent on it, or an equivalent period of time in another department for conscientious objectors. I'd like to see some of those D4 jock bunnies in the army...

magpie

I'd like to see some of those D4 jock bunnies in the army...

They fulfill a useful purpose in society. Who would do PR without them?

supersheep

PR and useful purpose are not words I would use together...

magpie

People who are unable to detect sarcasm will be required to do 5 years National Service

ambro25

Well, I've done mine. I disagree wholeheartedly with two points in this thread:
(i) that anyone would be exempted
(ii) that it would teach undesirables to become more undesirable

With regard to (i), National Service if it was ever (re?)introduced would have to be a Constitutional amendment, and you can't declare exceptions to Constitutional obligations ("duty", a concept increasingly lost) as far as I know. Moreover, the kind of exception suggested (education, social background, etc.) would indeed generate more resentment from those having to do it than there already is simply based on income/lifestyle. Note that NS does not have to be 'camos for all', and there are ways and means for people in higher eduction to accomplish their duty in a more socially useful manner that is more relevant to their 'aptitude', e.g. the Civil Service in France (which I did), wherein you help kids in -say- Tallaght with their schooling/homework/whatever and somewhat hope to improve their eventual shot at the big time.

With regard to (ii), France never provably had 'worse' crimes/crime rate because of the National Service that each class of age until born 1.1.78 had to undergo. Unsurprisingly, however, as classes of ages after that date reached/reach their teens without having to do it, crime has consistently been on the up since. Yes, you can massage stats all you want. However, I wouldn't go as far as to dismiss a cause-and-effect out-of-hand. And anyone who did their National Service in 'camos' in france will attest that they probably shot all of 10 rounds max in the whole service year.

Where discipline really comes in, which the ITV naff series does not address as far as I know (never watched it) is that during your NS, you would be subjected to military law (I was), with all the (im)perfections Military Police and a Military Tribunal and decisions thereof suppose, particularly where knackers are concerned.

For the little story, I'd asked Paratroop or Chasseurs Alpins because of extra permission (10 days instead of 5, over 12 months) to visit my wife in the UK (done all my Uni' etc, wanted a year of fun/fitness). But I was summarily diagnosed with zero depth perception, so they probably thought I might not pull the cord early enough and I then went for civies (under military law all the same, though, so not allowed to travel overseas, regulatory No.0 crew cut, etc, etc.) since I already knew quite well how to shoot/fight/etc.

Praetorian

magpie,

Stop digging a hole for yourself!

dalk

I thought Irish National Service was going to Australia for a year? Isn't it compulsory?

gurramok

CiaranC wrote:

Yeah, we could have it so if the parents earn over a certain amount or have an address on the southside of Dublin they are also exempt!

/me ducks

Bad idea, they would lose out on some patriotism which is alien to them anyway

supersheep

magpie wrote:

People who are unable to detect sarcasm will be required to do 5 years National Service

Digging me, yeah? I thought the smiley woulda said "Got ya..." I could live with National Service - after all, I'm planning to join the Reserves voluntarily, so a chance to do more shooting sounds like fun...

magick

good idea , though parts of northern dublin will be have to be zoned off to be classed as "battle training grounds"

rsynnott

magpie wrote:

You'll note that anyone in 3rd level education is exempt - only the detritus will have to do it.

Ah, so it's going to be a CLASS issue, yes?

Do you have any CONCEPTION how much this would cost? And counties with compulsory service have crime too, you know.

gurramok wrote:

Bad idea, they would lose out on some patriotism which is alien to them anyway

Just as well, too. Few things more dangerous than blind belief in one's country.

gurramok

rsynnott wrote:

Just as well, too. Few things more dangerous than blind belief in one's country.

A bit of patriotism might just give some of them selfish begrudgers a sense of pride in their country.

bonkey

magpie wrote:

You'll note that anyone in 3rd level education is exempt - only the detritus will have to do it.

A less elitist proposal I have yet to hear on this forum.

Bravo sir.

rsynnott

gurramok wrote:

A bit of patriotism might just give some of them selfish begrudgers a sense of pride in their country.

And what the hell would they want that for? What, honestly, is there to be proud of?

gurramok

A pride in your culture and heritage and where you are from. I'm not talking about the government and their rights and wrongs, its just pride of being Irish.
If people are not proud of where they are from, they knock it down and have a 'don't care' attitude which is shown in anti-social elements.
Every other country in EU are proud of their heritage even the poor ones with backward infrastructure and worse quality of living, all we have is a paddys day of getting drunk.

I often wonder why we don't celebrate a national independence day like most countries.

uberwolf

whilst magpie has done a poor mans trolling here, and others are wandering way off topic I'm leaving this open if people can remain on topic as I believe there is room for debate on national service.

monument

magpie wrote:

You'll note that anyone in 3rd level education is exempt - only the detritus will have to do it.

Excuse me?

monument

magpie wrote:

If nothing else I think it would be a very good inducement for 18 year-olds to work in school and try to better themselves through 3rd level education. Especially if the alternative is 2 years of being barked at by a Sergeant Major and/or having potshots taken at you by Nigerian Marxists as opposed to settling in on the dole.

You most be pretty ill-informed if you think everyone who doesn’t go into third level education goes on the dole.

[your post looks to be deleted]

marco murphy

I think this would be a good idea. Only way to knock sense into the youth

dermo88

I'd make it 9 months to a year of National Service. Everyone does it, I repeat everyone, under the age of 50. Thats how I'd introduce it. Get a decent spread of age groups, backgrounds, and have them all in.

It can be run under the auspices of the FCA.

The university argument does not count. Thats rubbish.

The payment for National Service is at the minimum wage for the duration.

Employers are notified between 6 months and 1 year in advance.

No exemptions. That nonsense about University and College and 3rd Level education is just a way of well off people to cop out of it.

I think it would do more good than harm to have it. 9 months is an adequate period of time to get someone up to scratch. Plus, it gives people a routine and discipline that they may never have had before. For some people it could be a very sharp nasty shock to the system.

It should also be borne in mind that National Service was retained in Britain after WWII to keep its collapsing empire on life support. Britain was fighting a communist insurgency in Malaysia from 1948 to 1957. It was fighting in Korea in 1950 to 1952. It was fighting the Mau Mau in Kenya. There was also the Suez Crisis of 1956-1957. So it was the British Governments way of keeping a lid on its empire by getting a bunch of lads for 2 years.

It was abolished in 1963, by which time there was'nt much empire left.

rsynnott

What good would it do, and where would the money come from? Remember that our current government's major policy is keeping the high-band tax rate sacrosant.

simu

dermo88 wrote:

I think it would do more good than harm to have it. 9 months is an adequate period of time to get someone up to scratch. Plus, it gives people a routine and discipline that they may never have had before. For some people it could be a very sharp nasty shock to the system.

Schools are alredy supposed to give young people enough self-discipline and similar skills to deal with adult life. I don't see why the state should give itself the task of changing the ways of adult, non-criminal citizens.

nesf

simu wrote:

Schools are alredy supposed to give young people enough self-discipline and similar skills to deal with adult life. I don't see why the state should give itself the task of changing the ways of adult, non-criminal citizens.

That would imply that we had an education system that worked

Plus "school" education isn't the route for everyone.


To the suggestion that third level students be exempt, what about all those guys learning a trade in apprenticeships? That's as valid as a choice in life as continuing education is.

simu

nesf wrote:

That would imply that we had an education system that worked

Yes - hence the "supposed to".

Plus "school" education isn't the route for everyone.

That's irrelevant. The suggestion was national service for all - not for those who don't fit in at school.

FTA69

National service is a ridiculous and outdated concept, any power which gives the state authority to put people into a killing machine against their will is wrong. What about political objectors eg pacifists or Republicans? The case of Muhammad Ali during the Vietnam War is a poignant example as to why national service and/or drafting is completely oppressive?

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

rsynnott

Really it comes down to this: are you willing to have your taxes increased significantly for no obvious purpose but to annoy people? Are you willing to have your children blown up in Iran or whatever the next target is, if Ireland ever decides to join in the current invasion-fest?

jhegarty

easy solution....

a few months of service for each joyride you take or post office you rob...

supersheep

OK, do you seriously think it is a good idea to give criminals military training?

rsynnott

supersheep wrote:

OK, do you seriously think it is a good idea to give criminals military training?

Isn't that what the organisation you're defending over in the IRA thread does?

GUBU

Why should people intending to go to university be exempted? What about people doing PLCs, taking appreticeships or starting work?

In general I think this is a good idea, and Ireland would do well to follow the example of Germany, where everyone does a year of either national service or social work (for those who object to serving in the army). This is compulsory and takes place immediately after leaving school, after which time people can apply for university, jobs etc.

ArthurDent

GUBU wrote:

Why should people intending to go to university be exempted? What about people doing PLCs, taking appreticeships or starting work?

In general I think this is a good idea, and Ireland would do well to follow the example of Germany, where everyone does a year of either national service or social work (for those who object to serving in the army). This is compulsory and takes place immediately after leaving school, after which time people can apply for university, jobs etc.

Except can you imagine what our government would do with the 60,000 leaving cert students for a year.
If you were in the army as a career would you fancy babysitting a bunch of 18 year olds with less than no interest being there.
Or if you were in the civil service imagine being landed with some muppets to manage (and find work for) for a year.
Don't even get me started on all the possible problems with getting them to volunteer as aides in schools, hosptials and old folks homes - the court cases would probably make the money to be handed back on the charging of people in those old folks homes look like pocket money!

Can anyone if favour of this proposal tell me what these kids would do for a year that would be of benefit to them and the country and not cost us a bloody fortune

supersheep

rsynnott wrote:

Isn't that what the organisation you're defending over in the IRA thread does?

Damn you and your incisive wit! Shot down! Of course, I'm not totally defending the IRA, just bits of it (for the record, I think that, whatever about before, the IRA now mostly are thugs and scum) and I'm also playing devil's advocate a bit...
Hmm, what could they do? Well, we could stick them in the army and have them shouted at for two years constantly, sorta like the RDF nowadays but more long-term. For conscientious objectors, stick em in the army medical corps. And shout at them. Oh, and girls have to do it too.
It'll cost a lot of money though, and I can see little use, seeing as our army is a tad underfunded and small at the moment. Imagine having to deal with an extra 60,000 people in a 10,000 person army...
I can't really see much benefit - sounds like fun though...

ambro25

ArthurDent wrote:

Or if you were in the civil service imagine being landed with some muppets to manage (and find work for) for a year.

Well, imagine that indeed :rolleyes: - something challenging to do to give a kid some sense of responsibility/achievement, and quite a good management experience to add on a CV to boot.

ArthurDent wrote:

Don't even get me started on all the possible problems with getting them to volunteer as aides in schools, hosptials and old folks homes - the court cases would probably make the money to be handed back on the charging of people in those old folks homes look like pocket money!

"Court cases" of which you speak would have to be routed through a military tribunal, since the 'recruits' would be under martial law (as applicable to any serviceman/woman) for the duration of the service.

Can't see which potential cases you're on about for that matter... Care to clarify?

ArthurDent wrote:

Can anyone if favour of this proposal tell me what these kids would do for a year that would be of benefit to them and the country and not cost us a bloody fortune

Unskilled: get trained/eductade hands-on. an Army needs every skill, such as cooking, plumbing, electric, mechanic, etc, etc. And you'd be amazed the number of 18 yr-old getting inducted who wouldn't be able read/write - they can learn there too.

Cert-level or more:traditional service in camos or civil service, civil service comprising mostly social relief tasks (for which I understand the Republic is woefully under-staffed/-funded, which explains its current poor rating by various ONGs, including ONU) but also cheap temporary 'fillers' for any under-staffed 'proper' civil service of any description.

Result? Twice the service from government organisations to citizens, for much less than double the cost and garanteed 'hold' by the governement on the cost of this staff 'buffer' (i.e. no demands/strikes for extra salary etc.)

When I did mine in France, I was assigned to a Cabinet de Préfet de Région as a (FR) Civil Servant 'Grade A' (pay grade about €22k p.a., which is a lot in FR), and paid as a 2nd Class serviceman by the Army the princely sum of €56 net per month. There you go.

For all: get fit, some discipline, self-respect and self-awareness, where lacking.

ArthurDent

ambro25 wrote:

"Court cases" of which you speak would have to be routed through a military tribunal, since the 'recruits' would be under martial law (as applicable to any serviceman/woman) for the duration of the service.

Can't see which potential cases you're on about for that matter... Care to clarify?

Army deafness case ring any bells?

ambro25 wrote:

Unskilled: get trained/eductade hands-on. an Army needs every skill, such as cooking, plumbing, electric, mechanic, etc, etc. And you'd be amazed the number of 18 yr-old getting inducted who wouldn't be able read/write - they can learn there too.

Cert-level or more:traditional service in camos or civil service, civil service comprising mostly social relief tasks (for which I understand the Republic is woefully under-staffed/-funded, which explains its current poor rating by various ONGs, including ONU) but also cheap temporary 'fillers' for any under-staffed 'proper' civil service of any description.

Result? Twice the service from government organisations to citizens, for much less than double the cost and garanteed 'hold' by the governement on the cost of this staff 'buffer' (i.e. no demands/strikes for extra salary etc.).

Who would provide this training, on the army side - we have a very small army and certainly couldn't cope with the training/housing of 30000 odd new recruits each year under current circumstances, we're currently decommisioning a lot of the barracks around the country as it stands.

Re civil service recruits and "staff buffer, no demads/strikess for extra salary etc" do ya think the unions would accept this

Calina

I'm inclined to wonder how many people advocating national service include themselves amongst those eligible. I get the impression it's not that many here.

ambro25

ArthurDent wrote:

Army deafness case ring any bells?

Not Irish and recently imported so no, sorry.

ArthurDent wrote:

Who would provide this training, on the army side - we have a very small army and certainly couldn't cope with the training/housing of 30000 odd new recruits each year under current circumstances.

Civil service option - can live at home if still applicable (and just fresh from Leaving Cert, I'd say that's a majority, so not really a problem).

Camos option - can build their own if there's not enough : there's some useful skill training, build-your-own-home

As to who does the training... Don't the Army spend their lives training? Can't pro-soldiers undertake some underling training (and acquire some further management skills for when thery come out)?

ArthurDent wrote:

Re. civil service recruits and "staff buffer, no demads/strikess for extra salary etc" do ya think the unions would accept this

Ah well, unions... to protect bona fide civil servants from the unfair competition of course (thougbh they'd have to aware of the notion first)... yes, good point, fair enough (but then see how far France has come over the last 10 years with those )

ArthurDent

Ambro25

Army deafness case - one of those wonderful situations we tend to find ourselves in in this country from time to time. Essentially it was found that inadaquate ear protection had been provided to soldiers against noise over the years and the courts allowed claims to be taken against DOD - cost to the exchequer esimated at £300 million.
Approx 20,000 cases for compansation.

http://www.irishhealth.com/?level=4&id=931

ambro25

Ah yes - this rings a bell indeed (no pun intended). OK, but then you'd expect the Army to have conducted a full H&S assessment by now, following on from this... Anyhow, all for/against arguments put aside, I can't realistically see NS being ever (re-)introduced considering (i) the population size of Ireland, (ii) EU HR legislation, with which I'm sure pro-civil rights would bash any such proposal and (iii) the fact that the government would probably not be able to tax its way out of any problems it would generate

GUBU

Calina wrote:

I'm inclined to wonder how many people advocating national service include themselves amongst those eligible. I get the impression it's not that many here.

If national service is supposed to take place after finishing secondary school education and before starting college/work/apprenticeships etc., I'm eligible and strongly in favour.

rsynnott

Someone please explain precisely what good it would do, and how they plan on paying for it.

supersheep

Calina wrote:

I'm inclined to wonder how many people advocating national service include themselves amongst those eligible. I get the impression it's not that many here.

I'm eligible, and in favour - I would love to be a soldier for a few years, but not as long as the Army requires you to be...
Benefits? How about a decent-sized army? Additional bodies in the civil service to do the gopher work for peanuts? Ameliorate the housing crisis by building houses for homeless/housing list people? Charity work? Giving posh stuck-up kids a sense of responsibility and a social conscience? Giving rough kids a bit of structure and knocking a bit of sense and discipline into them? Not entirely sure about the last two...
How to pay for it? That's a minor problem... Say it costs €3000 euros per annum per serviceperson (based on ambro's wages, and some wild guessing on top as to how much feeding and housing a person on an army base or similar would cost) and 60,000 LC kids - that's €180 million. So we can assume somewhere between €150 and €300 million per annum, yeah? That's in the region of 1500 local authority style houses. So, if they built, say 5,000 per annum (seems like a fair guess), well, it mightn't pay for itself, but it sure does some good...

rsynnott

supersheep wrote:

Benefits? How about a decent-sized army?

That's not a benefit for a country like Ireland, it's a curse.

supersheep wrote:

Ameliorate the housing crisis by building houses for homeless/housing list people?

Yay, let's have unskilled, untrained kids building houses. What a WONDERFUL idea.

supersheep wrote:

Charity work? Giving posh stuck-up kids a sense of responsibility and a social conscience? Giving rough kids a bit of structure and knocking a bit of sense and discipline into them? Not entirely sure about the last two...

The last two are possibly the ONLY legitimate arguments for the thing. I'm not convinced, however, that being forced to do charity work is going to improve anyones' attitudes; quite the reverse in many cases. Some people are naturally unpleasant; nothing will change this.

supersheep wrote:

How to pay for it? That's a minor problem... Say it costs €3000 euros per annum per serviceperson (based on ambro's wages, and some wild guessing on top as to how much feeding and housing a person on an army base or similar would cost) and 60,000 LC kids - that's €180 million. So we can assume somewhere between €150 and €300 million per annum, yeah? That's in the region of 1500 local authority style houses. So, if they built, say 5,000 per annum (seems like a fair guess), well, it mightn't pay for itself, but it sure does some good...

Administration costs, compensation costs for when your forced labour gangs are injured and killed on building sites (deaths on building sites are a fact of life for any large project), cost of building these army bases of which you speak, cost of training, revenue lost through people doing this rather than working (or going to college; they'll enter the workforce a year later)... 300million is nothing like enough.

And even your 300 million would pay for a new hospital, but this is Ireland, where it is far preferable to watch people die in hospital coridoors than raise the high-band income tax. I think your national service will be far down the list of priorities...

Nuttzz

why would we blight the nations forces with people who didnt want to be there?

in a country with historically low unemployment it would be economic madness to take a sizeable chunk of the working population and let them rot in a barracks.

youth related crime needs to be tackled but nation service isnt the way of doing it

Barry Aldwell

ambro25 wrote:

As to who does the training... Don't the Army spend their lives training?

The Permanent Defence Force are, if anything, overstretched. The last thing they need is a 300-600% increase in size, with personnel who take 8-10 months to be fully trained, and leave after 24 months.