The Dole. Your opinion?

gregos

I thought our economy was booming. How come there are so many able-bodied people unable to find work and having to draw the dole?

seamus

Is that a rhetorical question?

simu

[inevitable response]Rhetorical eh?
[/inev res]

gregos

seamus wrote:

Is that a rhetorical question?

I don't know. Is it?

simu

What is ... it?

netwhizkid

There is an old saying the poor don't owe a penny, the rich all live in debt. I envy those people on the dole fair play to them. I glady pay my taxes to support them. If i had the option i'd be on the dole too.

Flukey

Some people wouldn't work if you paid them.

For others, though they have the skills, they can't find the ideal role for themselves. There are others that have practical difficulties getting into the workplace. Others are unable to work for various reasons not withing their control. Some are subject to discrimination. In short, there are lots of reasons why people are on the dole.

chump

I hate everybody on the dole. Scroungers, lazy bastids... getting all that money every week, living it up!

Let's all get together and begrudge the poorest people in our country!

gregos

Flukey wrote:

For others, though they have the skills, they can't find the ideal role for themselves.

Interesting concept. I haven't found the ideal role for myself either. Food for thought.

scojones

chump wrote:

I hate everybody on the dole. Scroungers, lazy bastids... getting all that money every week, living it up!

Let's all get together and begrudge the poorest people in our country!

That's a bit harsh don't you think? Some people cannot find work due to physical difficulties, and these people are on the dole and on some sort of welfare scheme, do you feel the same about them?

ntlbell

When you take everything that comes with being on the dole,

medical card, rent allowance, clothes allowance, fuel allowance and every other allowance under the sun not to mention being able to spend all day in bed.

for alot of people they probably end up with more spendable income on a monthly basis than someone on the average wage.

I give it strong consideration every morning when stuck in a car park on the m50

Sparky

I fairness i sterotype people who are on the dole to be lazy good for nothing fckers who spend all day in there houses in there beds and only get up to collect the dole, and on the other hand ive seen people who generally have a skill and cant get a job due to none available, and then there are the others who really get me who have jobs and still claim off the dole.
I think thats why there are so much young pregnancy's aswell, so that they can claim more money off the state for childrens allowence.

The dole is there as a fall back if you CANT get a job, not if you DONT want a job.

Flukey

There is no promotion on the dole. No one ever got rich on the dole, although there are some rich people claiming it. Through my work, I've met a lot of people on the dole. Few of them are scroungers. There are all sorts of reasons that they are on it, not of their making and the majority would much rather they weren't on it.

Funk Daddy

sjones wrote:

That's a bit harsh don't you think? Some people cannot find work due to physical difficulties, and these people are on the dole and on some sort of welfare scheme, do you feel the same about them?

I guess you missed the sarcasm in his post.

Do you really think people on The Dole "live it up"?

wes

I may have to go on it if i don't get a job sooner or later. Trying me best to avoid it if at all possible. Fingers crossed i get something sooner rather than later.

Way i see it, if things end up getting bad enough that i run out of the cash i had saved and i have to claim, when i eventually do get a job i reckon i will end up paying back what i claim. As i said doing my best to avoid it if at all possible and considering anything that will give me a bit of cash to keep me going it worse comes to worse.

alleepally

ntlbell wrote:

When you take everything that comes with being on the dole,

medical card, rent allowance, clothes allowance, fuel allowance and every other allowance under the sun not to mention being able to spend all day in bed.

for alot of people they probably end up with more spendable income on a monthly basis than someone on the average wage.

I give it strong consideration every morning when stuck in a car park on the m50

The situation you speak of is called the poverty trap. It's a shameful situation that after years of unprecented boom, we still have large sections of the population living in relative poverty.

Now, I suggest you inform yourself a little better about the fantastic life of some of your fellow citizens and talk to some people on the dole and understand the situation a bit better.

Then you might have reason to be thankful that you are in the privileged position of having a job that pays well enough to keep a car on the road and pay a toll every day.

While I'm at it. If you're one of those whiners that sends texts in to radio stations saying "the m50 is like a car park", PLEASE STOP IT. Everyone knows the M50 is sh1te. There's no use moaning about it. I personally am sick of hearing it.

Ray777

How much do you get on the dole? €140 per week or something? It might be money for doing nothing, but it's only just about enough to get by on. I don't think too many people choose it as a career option.

Victor

gregos wrote:

I thought our economy was booming. How come there are so many able-bodied people unable to find work and having to draw the dole?

How about you go off and study economics and sociology and tell us the answer?

PS we have one of the lowest unemployment rates in the world.

gregos

Victor wrote:

How about you go off and study economics and sociology and tell us the answer?

Why would I do that?

Flukey

To find your answer. Hey, you could even make a job out of it!

gregos

Just to clarify something for you, guys, before you go all knee-jerk and PC. I've been on the dole myself, so I know what it can be like. Also, as far as I know, it's still permitted to ask a question, yes?

davelerave

people on the dole can't be labelled en masse as able bodied people unwilling to work .some are long term unemployed who may be stuck in a rut they can't easily escape .other people may have been made redundant and need time to get new employment .some people are going throught difficult times in their lives and need a bit of time out from the work scene

gregos

davelerave wrote:

people on the dole can't be labelled en masse as able bodied people unwilling to work.

That's absolutely true, and I hope my question didn't give the impression that I thought this is the case. It amazes me the way people react against what they think is there, not what was actually said. To revert to the OP, what I asked was, how come there are so many able-bodied people unable to find work? (I said able-bodied in case anyone would think I was getting at disabled or old people). Why did everyone take that to be a statement of an opinion, instead of the question it is?

Flukey

Of course you can ask the question Gregos. I think it has been well answered, with all the different situations we've outlined. There are many reasons why people are on the dole, no matter how good the economy is.

sceptre

gregos wrote:

Why would I do that?

Because if you did that within ten minutes of your first class in macro you'd have the answer. Or at least the first paragraph of my quick rambling answer (I have an interest in employment in that I like to spend money on unnecessary purchases like nice cheese and extra socks, I've only a passing interest in the thing from an aconomic point of view).

Our current unemployment rate is basically full economic employment. Virtually all of the unemployed figure can be accounted for by people moving from one job to another with a gap in between, temporary layoffs (many factories do this seasonally or quarterly for a few weeks) and similar situations. This is generally known as frictional unemployment.

Full employment is something of a myth as there are always people moving from one job to another with a gap in between. From an economist's point of view, full employment is generally regarded as the lowest sustainable unemployment. Depending on the view of the economist and whether they're fans of Keynes' views, Lerner's views (Friedman's employment views would essentially be a small development of Lerner's) or some of our more whacky theorists, they'd have a particular view on whether actual full employment should be sought through interventionist policies or leaving the market to muddy the waters by itself.

William Beveridge defined full employment as a situation where the number of unemploted equalled the number of job vacancies available. Economically it makes sense. On a practical level it fails to take account of workers whose skillsets don't match the jobs available (this is part of what's known as structural unemployment). He developed the Beveridge curve to explain this but given that I've just explained it as well as he managed to, you could probably draw it yourself - a nice quarter circle with the centre of the circle furthest away from the axes origin. A perfect quarter circle, which should be indication enough that the theory has holes.

There's also search unemployment (I just fired you and you're looking for a job (no, you actually are)), wait unemployment (a particular sector offers high paying jobs so it's oversubscribed and people take part-time work or no work while waiting to get into the particular sector), specific sections of hidden unemployment (any unemployment that doesn't form part of the official figures, including people who don't claim benefit like young wes above or people who are retired or disabled and on benefit or similar) and the expected seasonal unemployment, though the figures are theoretically adjusted to take account of the latter.

And for the benefit of both marxists out there who read Kalechi on the weekends I'll mention the reserve army of the unemployed. It's the marxist equivalent of a conspiracy theory (capitalists - they're genuinely out to get you personally) so I'm only mentioning it before someone else pretends it actually exists.

You've also got cyclical/demand deficiency and classical/real-wage unemployment but they're not all that relevant to your question and the current Irish economy. Like technological unemployment (not the same as an inadequate skillset, it's where you're replaced by a machine and, I suppose, aren't qualified to get a job servicing that machine) there are small groups in our economy who fall into these categories but it'd take too long to explain when the groups are small, though a google might help.

And you've a small number (relatively speaking from the point of view of the original question) who aren't seeking work, aren't disabled in any way (mentally or physically), don't want a job of any kind and won't ever have one. This is a rather small percentage compared to the frictional unemployment figures. Some of these guys are managing to work at the same time but they deserve a special category well-worthy of scorn and disdain. It's a very small number and you'd do better to consider this group being a very small number than the 4-5% of the labour force some people seem to think it is.

So anyhoo, to give my view on the question and taking into account that davelerave's answer should be good enough as an answer, most of them are between jobs or employment temporarily, some know where their next job is and while there's a small group of people with no interest in working at all (ever), it's a small enough group that if you're worried about it, you should be more worried about exposing them as individuals rather than as a group millstone around our necks.


As for our economy booming (and relatively speaking, it sort of is), the major key to that is that people like you and me think it is. Always reminds me of that Monty Python sketch about the hypnotist who was constructing council flats and holding them up with the power of persuasion. The economy wants you to keep spending more than it wants Intel to stay. The latter merely acts as a convenient, albeit effective, prop for the former perception of wealth. We're all wealthy as a group but very few of us are actually all that wealthy as individuals. Then again, some people can't afford the odd piece of nice cheese or extra socks (I lose them, I need the extra socks).

Funk Daddy

ntlbell

alleepally wrote:

Now, I suggest you inform yourself a little better about the fantastic life of some of your fellow citizens and talk to some people on the dole and understand the situation a bit better.

Then you might have reason to be thankful that you are in the privileged position of having a job that pays well enough to keep a car on the road and pay a toll every day.

While I'm at it. If you're one of those whiners that sends texts in to radio stations saying "the m50 is like a car park", PLEASE STOP IT. Everyone knows the M50 is sh1te. There's no use moaning about it. I personally am sick of hearing it.

I don't need to inform myself of anything as I've spent some time in between jobs on the dole so I understans situation very well.

It's keeping car payments and paying high insurance to keep the car on the road in order to get to work in the first place not mention the 700e a year in tolls that makes the dole that much more appealing.

If you take an average wage.

Take out tax
prsi
vhi
Docs
Medicine
car
insurance
car tax
rent
bills
petrol
etc etc

I would imagine there's not much difference in _spendable_ income from some one on the dole claiming all benifits.

dole != poverty

sceptre

You can just read the second-last paragaph then Funk Daddy. Nice picture.

As for ntlbell, if you feel like dumping your car and not having that any more, go on the dole if you like. Or you could just take the frigging bus if you feel like saving a wad of cash. Unless you're in a special category that you can justify in some way you don't get to include your car in the list of necessary expenses you /have/ to pay. Even if you are, you still don't get to include all your car expenses unless you use it exclusively for work.

DonkeyStyle \o/

ntlbell wrote:

I would imagine there's not much difference in _spendable_ income from some one on the dole claiming all benifits.

Why don't you quit your job and give it a try?
You could make a documenary about it... "the ntlbell unemployment experience", I'd watch it

Lump

From what I've seen, and I'm no genius on the subject. But there appears to be lots of work out there. But lots of Irish people believe certain jobs are below them, and would prefere to scrounge off the government. Also being on the dole is easy.

John

Deadwing

Speaking as someone who spent 7 months on the scratcher a couple of years ago, i can honestly say its one of the most depressing, sould crushing experiences ive ever had. Queing up in the dole office, (the lovely yellow walled one on gardiner st, a.k.a the happiest place on earth) with all the other unemployable bums (no offence to them) was so utterly depressing. Trying to get by on E120 a week, counting every penny, its no way to live at all. Some people seem to think its a doss, a real laugh, getting paid for nothing, and for a week or 3 it is, but after that, the rot sets in.

Real

None of us can deny there are a massive amount of people out there on the dole that simply dont want to work. At a guess I would say more job-dodgers than genuine cases.

I think far more checks need to be done before someone gets the dole. The genuine cases need to be looked after and ways found for them to turn themselves around and make a contribution to the economy too.

I have come across loads of lazy bast-rds, including people close to home that simply cant be arsed getting out of bed. Theses people should be weeded out of the system and put to work. We are paying for people to do all sorts of menial jobs in this country. Why not make the dole spongers do some of those jobs for their E140 a week, Im sure they will suddenly find a job they like fairly quick after a few weeks of that.

Plus as someone mentioned before, E140 a week completly disposable income is quite a lot of money. I dont think I have that much a week to spend on crap after all my bills.

joejoem

Ray777 wrote:

How much do you get on the dole? €140 per week or something? It might be money for doing nothing, but it's only just about enough to get by on. I don't think too many people choose it as a career option.

Well when you have your rent paid, children's allowance that you pocket yourself etc its not so bad. There should be a system in place that you get 6 months dole and that's it for a year, if they cant find employment somewhere place them in a government job like cleaning public toilets or scrubbing the walls of the liffey in town when the tide is out for minimum wage, and again if they loose this job, fúck them. If someone has a genuine disability then yes they should be entitled to it. Any self respecting man/woman would loath the thought of being on the dole for the rest of there life, where as most of these dublin scumbags that hang around Tara Street Dart Station and the like assume its there god given right to claim the dole, and often in more than one place. I know my opinion might seem harsh but there has to be a better solution than letting this trend continue. The more "advanced" we become the more freedom the free loaders get. If a person is not contributing to society (with exception to those disabled) then there should be consequences

Tazz T

ntlbell wrote:

If you take an average wage.

Take out tax
prsi
vhi
Docs
Medicine
car
insurance
car tax
rent
bills
petrol
etc etc

I would imagine there's not much difference in _spendable_ income from some one on the dole claiming all benifits.

dole != poverty

You need to take out self-respect too. How much is that worth?

Being on the dole is soul-destroying.

Sure, there's people out there dossing it on the dole, but they in the minority. They are people like that anywhere in the world. If they weren't allowed to claim dole you might have to work with them, or worse still, for them. Which would you prefer?

The dole serves a very useful purpose in society. It's one of few things worthwhile my tax pays for.

I was on the dole for six months a few years back. It just helped me keep my head above water until I found a new job. I can't even imagine what it would be like to be on it long term.

Duckjob

Deadwing wrote:

Speaking as someone who spent 7 months on the scratcher a couple of years ago, i can honestly say its one of the most depressing, sould crushing experiences ive ever had. Queing up in the dole office, (the lovely yellow walled one on gardiner st, a.k.a the happiest place on earth) with all the other unemployable bums (no offence to them) was so utterly depressing. Trying to get by on E120 a week, counting every penny, its no way to live at all. Some people seem to think its a doss, a real laugh, getting paid for nothing, and for a week or 3 it is, but after that, the rot sets in.

I've thankfully only spent a few weeks on it (a good few years ago), but can identify with the depressing, soul destroying feeling, but you've got to remember those feelings arise out of a sense of desire to make yourself useful and contribute to society, which sadly some people simply lack.

I do think the controls for payment of long-term assistance should be tightened up. I've no problem at all with dole for people between jobs (after all, they've paid their PRSI), or even long term assistance for those who have difficulty in finding a job, but I don't see why anybody who is in a position to work, should be paid if they choose not to.

Megatron

joejoem wrote:

Well when you have your rent paid, children's allowance that you pocket yourself etc its not so bad.

I've been on the dole a few times ( while looking for a job) and they are benifits not part of the dole. last time i was on the dole it was €130 a week.
it's enough money to survive , but not to live.

if i wanted to head out for a night out with my mates it would take about 3 - 5 weeks of saving in order to have money enough to enjoy the night, and not need to borrow.

From my own experences i've never enjoyed being on the dole. But what can make it worse is some of the ignorant wan kers who work there. I had one person who came right out and accused me of not looking for work and being a leech on socitey. I showed them all the jobs i had applied for and they didn't accept them as valid jobs. We ended up have a big argument about wasting skills , making college redunant and all that.

in the end they put me under review stopped my dole for 6 weeks and had me tested ( means test, see's how much you should get), Once i had to go back in, the person had been fired for doing this what they had done to me , but they had done it to every single person for 3 weeks.

The hastle i went through was hell. the only happyness i got was when i did get a job, i was thier supervisor , now i wasn't mean to them .. too much.
But they did remember me, and on my first day they put in a complaint against me ( saying i had been using bad language to someone else , rude to customers), they didn't last more then 3 weeks once i got there.

But that is a extreme case

Deadwing

Megatron wrote:

The hastle i went through was hell. the only happyness i got was when i did get a job, i was thier supervisor , now i wasn't mean to them .. too much.
But they did remember me, and on my first day they put in a complaint against me ( saying i had been using bad language to someone else , rude to customers), they didn't last more then 3 weeks once i got there.

But that is a extreme case

Now that is some delicious ironing. Mustve been great to go back to everyone whod looked down on you as a scrounger and then fired them lol

bacon?

i think they should be doing community service for their dole.

the minimum wage is €7.65, so they should be doing around 18hrs a week.

they wouldn't be seen as scroungers, and would also be doing the community good.

samo

ntlbell wrote:

When you take everything that comes with being on the dole,

medical card, rent allowance, clothes allowance, fuel allowance and every other allowance under the sun not to mention being able to spend all day in bed.

for alot of people they probably end up with more spendable income on a monthly basis than someone on the average wage.

I give it strong consideration every morning when stuck in a car park on the m50

Not everyone that gets the dole is entitled to get the medical card, back to school allowance, rent allowance etc so they are not neccessarily 'coining it in' as you might think.


EDIT/
Sorry just saw that someone else said that before me ...but anyhoo, I'll say it again!!

Goodshape

Haven't read this thread (always the same old arguments to be honest), but my 2c :

I spent a good year and a half on the dole, not particularly looking for work at the time either. Living in the country it was enough to get by on and still live reasonably. I enjoyed it anyway.. gave me time to think about things and sort myself out without having to worry too much about 'making a living'.

I think a lot of people could benefit from just taking a year out and not worrying about work - an awful lot of people don't seem to be able to do that (the 'social stigma' or too much free time gets them down). While I acknowledge that this isn't strictly why the dole exists, I for one wouldn't begrudge anyone the experience.

At the end of the day very few will choose to do 'nothing' indefinitely.

Flukey

Lump, being on the dole may be easy, but not very profitable. Bacon, we already have Community Employment Schemes and other things similar to what you are suggesting, although they have been cut back in recent years. A lot of people are also on courses and they are not counted on the unemployment register, though they don't have jobs and are getting a state allowance, which is effectively the dole. So there are a lot of things happening that takes people off the unemployment register. I work in this area, dealing with them, so I know.

ntlbell

samo wrote:

Not everyone that gets the dole is entitled to get the medical card, back to school allowance, rent allowance etc so they are not neccessarily 'coining it in' as you might think.


EDIT/
Sorry just saw that someone else said that before me ...but anyhoo, I'll say it again!!

OK pendantic pants the MAJORITY do.

The point is being missed tho, I'm not saying life is great on the dole, but pointing out reasons why people don't bother if working their balls of gives them very little extra in the bank a month when they can get the same for doing SFA.

magpie

we still have large sections of the population living in relative poverty

relative to what? If they've still got money to go to the bookies/pub/chipper every day then they're relatively rich, especially relative to the amount of work they are doing and the amount they are contributing to society as a whole.

No job? Then no money, and no council house either. Bring back Workhouses, those ropes won't unpick themselves.

~awaits moral outrage~

comad

Being on the dole is so soul destroying. You sink to new lows on it.

Flukey

While it may give you a few quid, it is not exactly a career move. As I said already, there is no promotion on the dole. Things are not going to improve much. The vast majority of the people on the dole that I have dealt with are not happy being on it. There are a few that wouldn't take a job, but they are a minority. Most are only too happy to get off it. Initially they may not be much better off, and sometimes even worse off, but they have prospects and they are prepared to stick it out to get the longer term benefits, which the dole can never bring. In order to get the big well paying job, you often have to take the poor one. People are prepared to do that. They are the people that will succeed.

cornbb

I spent two months on the dole before I started going insane and got a job. The money is enough to buy food and shelter but thats it. I don't see how anyone could stick it out for longer than necessary.

Sleepy

davelerave wrote:

some people are going throught difficult times in their lives and need a bit of time out from the work scene

Then they need to save up for a few months and pay for their own damn holiday. If it's a matter of not being able to find a job you like, tough crap, get a job you don't like until your dream position frees up tbh.

I like the way so many posters talk about it being only a "tiny percentage" of those drawing the dole that aren't genuine cases. Personally I can think of three or four friends of mine drawing that shouldn't be and I'm sure many other posters here can say the same.

Sure, there's a need for the dole but it needs to be administered responsibly so that the taxpayers money isn't frittered away in payouts to leeches.

Kingsize

ive had a few spells on the dole - not lasting longer than 6 months at a time.
while it wasnt depressing to the stage of arthur fowler style mental breakdown it was hardly a walk in the park.
it was certainly more enjoyable when i was living in my parents' house but still a pain in the arse having no cash.
Last spell on the dole i had was when i quit a job that was slowly killing me.
it wasn't very pleasant at all ,barely had any money at all,relying on renta allowance to pay my accommodation.
from what i know the dept of social welfare usually reviews people's unemployment claims regularly nowadays - the more employable you appear the more hassle from the dole office you will incurr.
in a lot of cases the "long term unemployed" are quite often "unemployable"
It may be a holiday for some people who are going on to better things or who will eventually "come good" for some people though its an endless cycle of poverty & dependance.

irlirishkev

comad wrote:

Being on the dole is so soul destroying. You sink to new lows on it.

This man speaks the truth. I spent a few months on the dole at one point, and it was the most depressing few months of my life.. I never want to find myself there again..

Anyone ever hear The La's song 'Doledrum'? Sums it all up..

K.

Real

I agree that many have experienced the dole as sole destroying and long to get back on the work ladder, but we are talking about the many many others that are quite happy to let the dole be a permanent fixture in their lives.

Most of those people have no interest in getting a job / career / foot up the ladder. Ambition means something completly different for them. Im not talking about the genuine cases, Im talking about all the unmarried mothers that have more kids just to get more money and the guys we all know and see regularly in an out of the pub / bookies / dole office. Their lazy genes are bleeding this country dry.

Anymore than 6 months on the dole any you should be put working with the corpo. We will see how quick they find a better job then

BossArky

Goodshape wrote:

I think a lot of people could benefit from just taking a year out and not worrying about work.

Generally 4 years out and doing very little would be referred to as Uni.

Goodshape wrote:

While I acknowledge that this isn't strictly why the dole exists, I for one wouldn't begrudge anyone the experience.

Yes I agree, some time to just live could be beneficial.

---

I worked in various crap jobs through Uni (chippers, stores, pubs, etc). A few of my class were even managing to claim the dole over the summer months when we were supposed to be working on a thesis. That was annoying as I was never eligible for the dole in the summers between and always had to work my a$$ off to save for the next years accomodation plus money to live on etc. The reasoning of the government was that if I was able to work then I should continue to work.... whereas all the lazy gits whose parents pumped money into them could afford to not work during the year and then claim dole during the summers!

A few years back I heard someone saying that the reason so many Spaniards come to Ireland is due to the fact that they can come for an "extended" holiday on the dole... as there is no such thing in Spain (not sure of the truth of that).