Irish porn laws?

ICadvisor

Dear all,

I have a legitimate question to ask, I assure you I’m not trying to start flame wars or incite a riot, but as an outsider to this country you can imagine where my curiosity steams from.

Here goes, could someone please tell why pornography is “illegal” in Ireland? I realize that there are a few back-alley, neon light a-blazing “adult shops” to be found through out the country, but why is it that if you want to say make a porno or register a website with a “.ie” domain ending in Ireland you are forbidden to so. I don’t desire to do either, my bewilderment at a modern country in Europe still living in the sex-deprived dark ages just stuns me to no end, and I cannot find answers as to why.

Google searches amount to zip, and thumbing through law books at the library and bookstores turns up nothing short of a few paragraphs pertaining to child porn being illegal.

Please aid my curiosity and explain – I come from a country that recognizes and embraces the healthiness and wonderfulness of sex and human sexuality, where you are allowed to make porn, sell porn, buy porn and create porn related web sites. Surely no matter how Catholic a country Ireland is, it can’t be more Catholic than Italy, the home of the Vatican – yet Italy is a country with a ragging and industriously profitable porn industry.

Ban me for this post if you will, but I’ll keep searching for answers if it means I have to hire a lawyer and ask them to look it up in a leather-bound volume.

[font=&quot]Thank-you to all who are willing to dip thier toes into this one[/font]

AdMMM

While I'm totally in the dark about why it's illegal, I do know that it doesnt stop people who really want to make porn with a recent figure quoting that about 40 pornos are made in Ireland each year!

zenith

Oasis link is a good place to start on this question. Or here.

I think that since 'obscene' is a subjective test, that there has been a de facto widening of availability of pornography in line with the changing mores of the country.

I believe that the film censor in particular has spoken on this recently, and my impression is that there are very few bannings - if any - at present. Similarly, publications. Child pornography is, of course, an exception to this.

Therefore, the on-the-ground situation is quite different to the way you percieve it. While obscene literature is illegal, the definition of what constitutes obscene is a moving target.

I certainly don't feel any particular need to relax the laws/re-cast them: I can get a jazz mag should I so want one, and the laws exist to curb excess should something particuarly vile be published. This is not written from a Catholic viewpoint in any case.

I don't know that making a porno is illegal, either. As for the .ie domain, they makes their own rules.

This is not legal advice. I am not a lawyer.

To contrast, what measures exist to recognise and prevent the publication of obscene material in your country? Is there no recognition of the concept of obscene? If so, is there no protection for some religious works?

(Also, no need to worry about a banning: this is an excellent topic ...)

mike65

Do the local porn laws matter a damn anymore?

Mike.

Victor

Obscenity and obscene material is banned, thats all. The definition is for the censors to decide, but ultimately what constitutes obscenity is for a jury. You would have difficulty finding a material amount of prosecutions.

ICadvisor wrote:

Surely no matter how Catholic a country Ireland is, it can’t be more Catholic than Italy, the home of the Vatican – yet Italy is a country with a ragging and industriously profitable porn industry.

Remind me, but didn't the Holy See get independence from Italy in 1929?

ICadvisor

Hi everyone,

Thank-you so much for your thoughts on this topic, I really wasn’t sure what sort of responses this thread would generate!

Zenith, I’m from Canada, a very easygoing, considerably liberal (okay we’re not Holland, but…) country. Of course laws exist to the extent of what is and isn’t legal when it comes to porn/sex. Things like rape, incest, paedophilia, bestiality, necrophilia and snuff films are all of course banned and against the law in every province (as is prostitution). But beyond there (okay, honest to goodness I’m no expert) things get pretty relaxed. All videos sold in shops have to past through a screening panel somewhere in the country to be determined if they are suitable for sale, the same applies in the States. Canada has some amazing adult stores, with a zillion more things than just videos and I suppose I’m just used to seeing them in most towns. In fact when I lived in one major Alberta city a chain of adult store had billboards!

I believe strongly in the freedom of sexuality, though my parents gave me the birds and the bees (and kudos to my mother she did a suburb job) long before sex ed started in school, the sexual education that was provided by my school district was actually remarkably thorough and well taught. It spanned everything (over the course of several years, if memory serves me right it was given for 2-3 weeks a year) from the very basic principles, to STDs, contraception use, the emotional aspects of lovemaking, teen pregnancy, sex toys, etc. The boys might have snickered but no parent could have asked for a more when it came to school provided sex ed, an important thing as many parents worldwide choose (I feel wrongly) to leave the matter of sex ed to the schools.

Canadian (and American) TV channels feature many shows that focus on the healthy and scientific aspects of love making, and don’t degrade it for a moment. There is one wonderful show that runs every Sunday night on the “Women’s Television Network” called “The Sunday Night Sex Show,” hosted by the most charismatic, open-minded and empathetic older lady (she has to be at least 70 now) where for the majority of the hour she takes calls from people all across the country and answers their sex questions in a completely intelligent and unbiased way.

I point these things out because I feel in my hearts of hearts that that is how it should be in every country, and I am deeply troubled by the idea of juries deciding what is and isn’t obscenity, and having literature censored for perhaps talking about oral sex or gay sex. Of course what is vile to one person might be A-okay with another, but in general Ireland really needs to loosen it’s sexual chokehold and embrace the what sexuality in the 21st century means.

But this is just a fraction of my two cents worth


(Victor, I believe you are right, I simply meant to point out that like Ireland Italy is a country with a very, very high percentage of the population who claim to be Catholic.)

zenith

ICadvisor wrote:

I point these things out because I feel in my hearts of hearts that that is how it should be in every country, and I am deeply troubled by the idea of juries deciding what is and isn’t obscenity, and having literature censored for perhaps talking about oral sex or gay sex. Of course what is vile to one person might be A-okay with another, but in general Ireland really needs to loosen it’s sexual chokehold and embrace the what sexuality in the 21st century means.

Good debate.

To be honest, I've never heard of anything being censored for those reasons outlined above in recent times - I remember reading William Borroughs in about 1989, for example - and I don't see what the difference is between the screening panel which exists in Canada and what we effectively have here. It's a govt appointee, but so's the screening panel, I'd imagine.

I can't comment on the school experience, though I do feel that it may have little to do with censorship - the flip side of your argument is to reject the parent's right to influence their children with their own morality, which might not be to everybody's taste, but is probably a legitimate choice for some.

I'm not sure where you're forming the impression of this sexual chokehold: there's certainly plenty of liberated sex, for lack of a better term, going on.

Is this a molehill?

AARRRGH

There is one adult website which is run from Ireland (which I know of.)

OVER 18 ONLY. SERIOUSLY. THIS IS AN IRISH ADULT WEBSITE.

Apart from that, I'm pretty sure you can sell any kind of porno magazines/videos in Ireland. The Gardai/whatever can only ban particular publications, not a genre. (Obviously child "porn" is not included in my statement above. But child "porn" is not porn IMHO.)

simu

It's just links to other porn sites, though and they don't look like they're Irish. (although some did have the orange fake tan thing so many Irish women do going on).

I wonder if your link will get censored? !

Victor

No offense, but do you have any idea what you are talking about?

ICadvisor wrote:

Canadian (and American) TV channels feature

We have cable / satellite TV. We can get those channels if we want.

I point these things out because I feel in my hearts of hearts that that is how it should be in every country, and I am deeply troubled by the idea of juries deciding what is and isn’t obscenity,

So who is to decide what is obscenity if it isn't your peers? Should the police decide what is obscene?

and having literature censored for perhaps talking about oral sex or gay sex.

Can you point to "literature" being censored in such a manner in the last 20 years? 50 years?

Newspapers and magazines could be banned, but only (a) if there is a complaint (b) the offending publication is in regular circulation (c) the complaint is upheld. I know of no newspaper that is banned and I think there are a very small number of magazines that are banned (but on old bans that haven't been appealed).

On film / video its a ratings régime, I understand that there are films under old bans and that only one director is currently having problems with getting a rating - I think his work included genital mutilation and the like.

Check here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=18

ICadvisor

Hi guys,

As I said in my first post I don’t want to turn this into a “flame war of any sort”, not at all. I came seeking info to satisfy my own person questions, not to insult anyone’s stances or views – religious or otherwise.

Yes Victor, I do know what I am talking about, I did not mean that you can’t get North American channels via satellite I meant that on the Irish channels there is very little in the way of programs that look at sex from a scientific/intelligent stand point – that I have yet to encounter. Look, as a country you can decide to be as censored or uncensored as you so choose, for example when the movie “Life of Brian” came out it was banned for 8 yeas in Ireland, but I realize that was due to something impeding on stanch Catholic views, and not on sex, a road this particular post is not going down.

If you’re comfortable with your peers making these decisions for you, well that’s cool. But tell me (because if they exist I have not seen them) where are your Irish adult mags? Your Irish made pornos on the world stage? Could part of the reason be that while (supposedly) hardcore (and this means different things to different people, obviously) porn is “legal” in Ireland, it is not allowed to depict things that the “state” views as illegal (the ever common act of fellatio being preformed by a woman as one of them). And supposedly, owning anything Irish or otherwise that contains these things that the state deems illegal, by someone living in Ireland is in itself a criminal act (website, movie, pics, etc).

Do I think that there is a secret porn squad of cops out witch hunting people with imported adult material, no, but I find the notion of (for the sake of example) fellatio being illegal in the eyes of the state insane. Are you going to tell me that no woman (or girl or otherwise) in Ireland gives head? Not “allowing” material that portrays something does not stop it from happening.

Before everyone thinks I’m a ragging pervert (why is someone labelled as such when they talk about sex, or moreover pornography) my original reason, beyond curiosity for asking these things, was that I was inquisitive about what sort of repercussions would follow if someone took artistically adult photographs. Which got me wondering what sort of porno you could safely make in Ireland without looking over your shoulder, or worrying that (in spite of model/actor releases) your hired models/actors would come back to charge you with a crime.

I really do appreciate everyone’s answers, and realize this is a subject that could be debated and pondered until the cows came home – or until the porn laws were relaxed – which ever one come first

p.s.

Did you know that at the time of their release (and often for many years after) books like “The Grapes of Wrath”, “Guillever’s Travels” and the classic “The Joys of Sex” were all banned in Ireland.


"Without free speech no search for truth is possible... no discovery of truth is useful... Better a thousandfold abuse of free speech than denial of free speech. The abuse dies in a day, but the denial slays the life of the people, and entombs the hope of the race."
-- Charles Bradlaugh

Bam Bam

I'd like to know why sex is seen as obscene and is censored?

It seems to be more acceptable to show dead and wounded people on TV then it is to show sex.

rsynnott

Victor wrote:

No offense, but do you have any idea what you are talking about?We have cable / satellite TV. We can get those channels if we want.
So who is to decide what is obscenity if it isn't your peers? Should the police decide what is obscene?
Can you point to "literature" being censored in such a manner in the last 20 years? 50 years?

Newspapers and magazines could be banned, but only (a) if there is a complaint (b) the offending publication is in regular circulation (c) the complaint is upheld. I know of no newspaper that is banned and I think there are a very small number of magazines that are banned (but on old bans that haven't been appealed).

The magazines which are banned are generally banned for illegal ads for prostitutes. Certainly, literature is basically never censored. For all PRACTICAL purposes, our porn laws are similar to those of the more conservative EU nations.

ICadvisor wrote:

when the movie “Life of Brian” came out it was banned for 8 yeas in Ireland, but I realize that was due to something impeding on stanch Catholic views, and not on sex, a road this particular post is not going down.

That was due to hyper-Catholic stupidity here at the time. As of 1993, the last vestiges of church control of government in the area of "morality" died. Since then, Ireland has been moderately progressive in the area.

If you’re comfortable with your peers making these decisions for you, well that’s cool. But tell me (because if they exist I have not seen them) where are your Irish adult mags?

Where are our Irish ANYTHING mags? Most of our culture, including porn, comes wholesale from the UK and to a lesser extent the US, you know.

Your Irish made pornos on the world stage? Could part of the reason be that while (supposedly) hardcore (and this means different things to different people, obviously) porn is “legal” in Ireland, it is not allowed to depict things that the “state” views as illegal (the ever common act of fellatio being preformed by a woman as one of them). And supposedly, owning anything Irish or otherwise that contains these things that the state deems illegal, by someone living in Ireland is in itself a criminal act (website, movie, pics, etc).

Not correct. "Obscene" things are illegal; interpretation is left up to the criminal justice system. In practice, enforcement is rare (except for child porn).

fellatio being illegal in the eyes of the state insane.

No longer the case.

Did you know that at the time of their release (and often for many years after) books like “The Grapes of Wrath”, “Guillever’s Travels” and the classic “The Joys of Sex” were all banned in Ireland.

Yes. Ireland before the 70s in particular was verging on fascist. We no longer ban books. Things go forward, life goes on.

hawkmoon269

ICAdvisor, ALL porn is actually illegal in several US states (admittedly a small number). I realise that you are Canadian, but you appear to be assuming that porn is legal in all of the US, which is not the case.

rsynnott

hawkmoon269 wrote:

ICAdvisor, ALL porn is actually illegal in several US states (admittedly a small number). I realise that you are Canadian, but you appear to be assuming that porn is legal in all of the US, which is not the case.

And in some cases, that's actually enforced! (It isn't here). For wacky American porn law, see http://www.deepveininsomnia.com/SBcopsc1.php

Victor

ICadvisor wrote:

As I said in my first post I don’t want to turn this into a “flame war of any sort”, not at all. I came seeking info to satisfy my own person questions, not to insult anyone’s stances or views – religious or otherwise.

But all you seem to be doing is making sweeping statements, few questions.

ICadvisor wrote:

Yes Victor, I do know what I am talking about, I did not mean that you can’t get North American channels via satellite I meant that on the Irish channels there is very little in the way of programs that look at sex from a scientific/intelligent stand point – that I have yet to encounter.

There are 4 Irish TV channels (but I suppose you could add UTV and the fledgling cable channels). They can only contain a certain amount of programming. In some ways each is more willing to discuss plain matter of fact sex than say BBC, but not as explicitly as say Sky One or Channel 4.

ICadvisor wrote:

Look, as a country you can decide to be as censored or uncensored as you so choose, for example when the movie “Life of Brian” came out it was banned for 8 yeas in Ireland, but I realize that was due to something impeding on stanch Catholic views, and not on sex, a road this particular post is not going down.

Lets face it, it is irreverant (and funny!), but it was at a time (1979) when people weren't ready for it.

ICadvisor wrote:

But tell me (because if they exist I have not seen them) where are your Irish adult mags?

The only one I've ever heard of was "Studio"(?) which was banned about 10 years ago (I suspect for advertising prostitution, but I don't know). Anything I've seen on the top shelf in the local Centra seems to be imported and not in short supply. Lets face it, if imported product of any kind can provide better quality cheaper than domestic products, then there is a substantial barrier to developing domestic product.

ICadvisor wrote:

Your Irish made pornos on the world stage?

I think there was one. Apparently, it wasn't very good. But lets face it, more movies come out of Hollywood (and Bollywood) than a very large portion of the world.

ICadvisor wrote:

Could part of the reason be that while (supposedly) hardcore (and this means different things to different people, obviously) porn is “legal” in Ireland, it is not allowed to depict things that the “state” views as illegal (the ever common act of fellatio being preformed by a woman as one of them).

?????????

ICadvisor wrote:

And supposedly, owning anything Irish or otherwise that contains these things that the state deems illegal, by someone living in Ireland is in itself a criminal act (website, movie, pics, etc).

Of course everything that is illegal is "criminal" (or if minor is an "offence"). However, possession for personal use of pornography (child pornography aside) is not a crime.

fellatio being illegal in the eyes of the state insane.

?????

Are you going to tell me that no woman (or girl or otherwise) in Ireland gives head?

No, they don't.

Before everyone thinks I’m a ragging pervert

Misguided, but not a pervert.

Which got me wondering what sort of porno you could safely make in Ireland without looking over your shoulder, or worrying that (in spite of model/actor releases) your hired models/actors would come back to charge you with a crime.

Well I'd have to point you in the direction of a solicitor there.

“Guillever’s Travels”

Are you sure? Got a link? It was written in Ireland.

rsynnott

Victor wrote:

(Gulliver's Travels)
Are you sure? Got a link? It was written in Ireland.

I wouldn't be at all surprised; the central character at one point had an encounter with a giantesses vagina. Not much detail is gone into, but it was still HIGHLY rique for its day.

Excelsior

ICadvisor wrote:

Did you know that at the time of their release (and often for many years after) books like “The Grapes of Wrath”, “Guillever’s Travels” and the classic “The Joys of Sex” were all banned in Ireland.

I love the way Joy of Sex is given classic status against the work of Dean Swift and Mr. Hemingway.

zenith

Excelsior wrote:

I love the way Joy of Sex is given classic status against the work of Dean Swift and Mr. Hemingway.

Yeah.

I'd like a citation for the Gulliver's Travels banning: Swift was a pamphleteer and published plenty anonymously, but I can't imagine it was 'banned' for obscenity before it was banned for sedition, if it was banned at all. It was published in Ireland for certain according to Wikipedia, and obscenity in the eighteenth century was a very different beast to the 19th.

rsynnott

zenith wrote:

Yeah.

I'd like a citation for the Gulliver's Travels banning: Swift was a pamphleteer and published plenty anonymously, but I can't imagine it was 'banned' for obscenity before it was banned for sedition, if it was banned at all. It was published in Ireland for certain according to Wikipedia, and obscenity in the eighteenth century was a very different beast to the 19th.

It may have been banned subesquently. The obsession with "morality" in the 19th century (one that the US looks set to revisit, sadly) led to such things.

Wacker

rsynnott wrote:

And in some cases, that's actually enforced! (It isn't here). For wacky American porn law, see http://www.deepveininsomnia.com/SBcopsc1.php

Rsynnott, I read that blog before. Its great isn't it? You really feel for her by the end.

pickarooney

Excelsior wrote:

I love the way Joy of Sex is given classic status against the work of Dean Swift and Mr. Hemingway.

*cough*Steinbeck*cough*

I imagine porn has to pass censorship so the censor gets a nice thorough list of what might be offensive so he knows what to review.

Sarsfield

ICadvisor, I think you have started this thread with certain misconceptions and were here only to hear the justification for what you think are facts. You don't seem to have realised that you are actually wrong in most cases. Or, more accurately, a few decades out of date with your research!

I have no legal qualifications so bear that in mind if you read the rest of this post.

Porn isn't illegal. However, according to the Customs Consolidation Act of 1876, it's prohibited to import porn. Problem is, there's no definition of porn. If you get stopped at customs, and if the customs officer is also a member of Opus Dei or the Legion of Mary, is having a bad day, and decides you're in posession of porn, he may confiscate the offending items. I'll dig up the link to a Government paper where it states that's the worst thing that can happen.

edit: Justice Dept dicsussion document Section 12.2 It's from 1998 and I'm not aware of any major changes since then. Big pdf document btw.

Making porn isn't illegal. The only way it becomes illegal is if you publish (as in make available to others) without approval of the censor. And that's not related to porn as such. It's simply the legal process of certification. And as previously noted, the censor is pretty relaxed these days. Although I acknowledge there's no equivalent of the R18 rating they have in the UK for 'official' porn that can only be sold in licensed sex shops.

In defence of RTE, they've always had the balls to show films in their entirity, without self-censorship, unlike their UK counterparts. Including some rude stuff from time to time.

Many porn films are made in Ireland. Not necessarily published in Ireland. And God only knows what use all those camcorders Dixons sell are put to

And fellatio is illegal in Ireland? Well Holy God, we'll need to start building a lot of prisons

I do agree that we're still a little shy about discussing sex at an official level. But we've come a long way in 20 years.

BTW, I got all this info from, erm, a friend. I've never seen any porn. Dirty filthy stuff.

ICadvisor

With this link below to my source of where it is stated that Gulliver’s Travels was banned at one time in Ireland, I shall likely step aside from this conversation. Now before any of you start smirking and thinking perhaps you have set me in my place it’s just that I think we’ll all go in circles here. As with so many issues, I see things one way and you guys as Irish people (aka this is your country, where you grew up, you know the ins and outs, the social mentality, etc) I see them in very differently, perhaps it's just that I look at things with North American eyes . Despite all the “proof” you have listed (and thank-you to those who were quick to share what they knew) as to the existence of porn in Ireland, I’m not convinced things are all that different from how I saw them in my first post.

But it is comforting on a general level is to know that the attitude towards porn, sex and open sexuality is slowly being relaxed, and this is what I picked up from all your diverse and interesting posts.

Gulliver's Travels. Jonathan Swift. Airmont; Bantam; Bobbs-Merrill; Dell; Grosset; Houghton; NAL; Norton; Oxford Univ. Pr.; Pocket Bks. Denounced as wicked and obscene in Ireland (1726), which was no doubt the effect Swift was going for.
http://title.forbiddenlibrary.com/

Oh…
And it might interest you to know that I’m not some guy wearing a long beige rain slicker, pockets bulging with barely legal porn dvds and imported adult mags from Japan or that I spend all my off time in strip clubs and massage parlours, the truth is quite to contrary. I’m a woman, and quite frankly watching porn for the purpose of “enjoyment” doesn’t do a damn thing for me one way or the other. Satisfying my curiosity and learning about how things work (in this case the “porn system” in Ireland) in much more fun.

rsynnott

Oh,you may be interested in this, btw: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland#Pornography

hawkmoon269

From the Wikipedia link RSynott posted:-

"Pornography
Hardcore pornography, while legal in Ireland, is not allowed depict any acts which are illegal in the state. This covers any participants being beneath the Irish age of consent, or depictions of buggery or fellatio in which one of the participants is a female. If any of these are in a video, DVD, film, photograph or website, use and possession of them is illegal."


Is the part in bold correct? Is it the case that depictions of buggery or fellatio in which ONE of participants is female are illegal, yet depictions involving just males (or even just females) are not illegal? A strange anomaly, if so?

rsynnott

It seems to be a non-enforced technicality.

Sarsfield

The Criminal Law (Sexual Offences) Act of 1993 specifically abolishes the offence of buggery between persons.

The word fellatio does not appear in the Irish Statute Book or any Statutory Instruments.

I believe the wikipedia item is incorrect.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie has a search engine

ICadvisor

Thank-you rsynnott, Wiki was one of the first spots I checked for info on this topic, and indeed where I learnt about the "fact" that fellatio is against the law according to whomever posted this article in its latest form.

Is the part in bold correct? Is it the case that depictions of buggery or fellatio in which ONE of participants is female are illegal, yet depictions involving just males (or even just females) are not illegal? A strange anomaly, if so? Yesterday 18:45

I thought the same thing hawkmoon, good call.

Likewise I appreciate your link (and info on the laws surrounding oral sex) Sarsfield, I think I shall bookmark that page, you never know when it might come in handy

~ Cheers ~

rsynnott

ICadvisor wrote:

Thank-you rsynnott, Wiki was one of the first spots I checked for info on this topic, and indeed where I learnt about the "fact" that fellatio is against the law according to whomever posted this article in its latest form.

What, you mean you believed that?! *giggles*

Victor

ICadvisor wrote:

Did you know that at the time of their release (and often for many years after) books like “The Grapes of Wrath”, “Guillever’s Travels” and the classic “The Joys of Sex” were all banned in Ireland.

Denounced as wicked and obscene in Ireland (1726), which was no doubt the effect Swift was going for.

I denounce your post for generalising?

Are you banned yet?