Best Fighter

columok

Just supposing that there was a no holds barred tournament with rules similar to UFC 2 (no biting no gouging) and with no weight limits.

Who would be the best fighter in Ireland?

Just a stupid hypothetical but still curious.

Kevin_rc_ie

If it was 20 years ago i'm certain my old judo coach would win.

columok

Its a tricky one cause the fighter would need size and skills.

What weight is your coach Kev?

Kevin_rc_ie

he fought in the olympics at under 75. i reckon he's 90 now.

Clive

Thta´d be me, but then again I´m locked.

columok

We salute you sir!

dub1dude

I'm going to go out on a limb here. Even you did have meet of the UFC style thing challenge all martial arts. I don't think the winner would/should be of natioal acclaim. If say 50 people enter. And it get's down to the last say 10, any of those guys could be the best fighter. Some people have an off day and some people have good days. It may come down to the fact the best out of the 10 had a bad day and the worst out of the 10 had a lucky day. Make sense?

Maybe a better format for this would to hold this and I've seen it before, over a certain amount of months. Just an idea. That way the guys that had a bad day get to have a good day too. Then there can be no cause to say "I was cheated" or "I wasn't feeling well that day" or any other excuse they may have. That way we'd know exactly who was the best fighter and not just a good fighter on the day.

(I hope more than 50 turn up )

Colm_OReilly

I would imagine one of the Russians we have down in Harold's X might take it. Those guys are strong, and you gotta respect that.

dub1dude

This conversation about the best art and the best fighter makes me think back to an episode of the simpons. Point of it is. Everyone wants to be pleased by envoking their rules. But the guy running it might find it hard to implement those rules, resulting in a bad comp, (or worse a character like Poochie). Just read it and put it into the scenario people have been talking about.

Man: How many of you kids would like Itchy & Scratchy to deal with
real-life problems, like the ones you face every day?

Kids: [clamoring] Oh, yeah! I would! Great idea! Yeah, that's it!

Man: And who would like to see them do just the opposite -- getting
into far-out situations involving robots and magic powers?

Kids: [clamoring] Me! Yeah! Oh, cool! Yeah, that's what I want!

Man: So, you want a realistic, down-to-earth show... that's
completely off-the-wall and swarming with magic robots?

Kids: [all agreeing, quieter this time] That's right. Oh yeah, good.

Milhouse: And also, you should win things by watching

dlofnep

Can we not turn this into a style V style debate again?

columok

Fair poinr dub1dude,

So surely as few rules as possible is the way to go. The oldskool UFC rules along anything reasonable so I think they're fairest.

Kev

I don't agree that the quantity of rules is the best decider of how realistic a fight is.

columok

what do you mean Kev?

Kev

Take for example wrestling, is Freestyle a much more realistic style as greco doesn't allow any wrestling below the waist as far as i know ?
In a Freestyle versus greco wrestling match the Freestyle guy would have an advantage but if you added in striking the balance would shift back towards greco.

dlofnep

Yes kev and Colum's point was that UFC's early rules simulate a real fight as close as possible. Groin strikes, headbutts were allowed.. Just no eye gouging and biting.

Kev

It may be as real as possible but its still not real.

vasch_ro

I would say maybe one of those King Of The traveller fighters might be in with a shout, surely the experience would stand to them , although cardio might be a problem from what I have seen.
For example that character Bradd Pitt plays in "snatch" he's Irish isn't he ? And is a good fighter to boot !

Kevin_rc_ie

only matrix rules should apply.

dlofnep

vasch_ro wrote:

I would say maybe one of those King Of The traveller fighters might be in with a shout, surely the experience would stand to them , although cardio might be a problem from what I have seen.
For example that character Bradd Pitt plays in "snatch" he's Irish isn't he ? And is a good fighter to boot !

Put them against any MMA fighter of the same weight, I'd bet my life savings on the MMA practitioner.

vasch_ro

Kev wrote:

It may be as real as possible but its still not real.

But its as real as it gets !

Kev

Would it not be more real if it were fought on concrete and fighters were forced to wear proper clothes, would forcing clothes made it less real in your eyes as its another rule ?
I think it would still be more real than ken shamrock coming in in speedos.
The original UFC was style vs style, i suppose thats one reason why they allowed it

vasch_ro

dlofnep wrote:

Put them against any MMA fighter of the same weight, I'd bet my life savings on the MMA practitioner.

in fairness as they always say about the Iceman ..there's always a punchers chance (or something like that)

vasch_ro

Kev wrote:

Would it not be more real if it were fought on concrete and fighters were forced to wear proper clothes, would forcing clothes made it less real in your eyes as its another rule ?
I think it would still be more real than ken shamrock coming in in speedos.
The original UFC was style vs style, i suppose thats one reason why they allowed it

why concrete , why not in water , on grass, in sand , in mud , in bark surely these are just as valid choices, after all there is more water on this planets surface than concrete !

(Plus speedo's look real good on the water ! )

dub1dude

I agree that the quantity of the rules should not govern the fight.

Very little rules would be best. I don't think any needs to get eyes poked out or hepatitis to be the best fighter. No eye-gouging or biting. Put in head butting. Never really used it in comps but it could be fun.

vasch_ro

dlofnep wrote:

Put them against any MMA fighter of the same weight, I'd bet my life savings on the MMA practitioner.

all I am saying is that the " King of the Tinkers " I would imagine would have had a number of fights to get the title probably bare knuckle and surely that experience would count for something, there are plenty of MMA practitioner's who practise MMA in their club but thats as far as it goes. But hey its your money !!

dlofnep

I'm not doubting their toughness, I've seen them fight. I saw one continue fighting while the guy he was fighting was clowning him over the head about 40 times with the leg of a wooden chair... But I think a good MMA guy could just neutralize them and choke them out.

dub1dude

I tried to make that point earlier. But they don't want to know. To be honest, I think it's a bit high and mighty.

dlofnep

dub1dude wrote:

I tried to make that point earlier. But they don't want to know. To be honest, I think it's a bit high and mighty.

To think that an unskilled bare knuckle champion could beat an MMA practitioner? How so? What makes them anymore skileld than your average bum that fights on the street other than that they are used to taking punishment?

vasch_ro

dlofnep wrote:

I'm not doubting their toughness, I've seen them fight. I saw one continue fighting while the guy he was fighting was clowning him over the head about 40 times with the leg of a wooden chair... But I think a good MMA guy could just neutralize them and choke them out.

Fair enough then point taken ..but that is a change from "any" MMA guy

dub1dude

Just curious. All I hear is that only the functional will work. But all the moves i've heard here are the armbar and the rear naked. Are these the only functional moves that work for you guys? I know for a fact it's not, but just clear it up for other people sitting at home.

vasch_ro

dlofnep wrote:

To think that an unskilled bare knuckle champion could beat an MMA practitioner? How so? What makes them anymore skileld than your average bum that fights on the street other than that they are used to taking punishment?

The fact that he is a champion would seem to imply a certain degree of skill
would it not ?
But I agree a scummer who fights regularly every week end would probably pick up a bit of skill as well

columok

I could name a zillion,

Most common stoppages?

ground and pound.
knees from standup
kick to the head
punch to the head
liver shots
TKO due to slam

Submissions:

Triangle
Armbar
Rear naked choke
Omo Plata
Head and Arm triangle
Anaconda Choke.
etc etc.

theyre the most common

dlofnep

dub1dude wrote:

Just curious. All I hear is that only the functional will work. But all the moves i've heard here are the armbar and the rear naked. Are these the only functional moves that work for you guys? I know for a fact it's not, but just clear it up for other people sitting at home.

No, they are not the only functional moves we know.. they are just high percentage moves.. Alot of people end fights with them. We have side chokes, triangle chokes, heel hooks, knee bars, ezekial chokes, brabo chokes, kimuras, keylocks, guillotine chokes, anaconda chokes, bicep slicers, calf crunches, toe holds, omoplatas... Varations of those and then variations of variations. That's just to name a few.

dub1dude

Well just for dexterity when you are talking about specific "functional" moves could you use some of them. It would be nice to read something different.

columok

Well dub1dude against someone who has no ground skills its most likely that they'll stick out their arm for an armbar or give up their back for a rear naked choke.

But why be so pernickety.

dlofnep

If you want to see what chokes and what holds are functional, why don't you just drop by a class and say hello instead of us tryign to type up every possible functional move or hold on an internet forum. I don't mean this in an intimidating way either, I mean it as genuine as possible. You'll see for yourself.

dub1dude

That's a great offer.

dlofnep

Class details are on hapkido.ie if you are in Waterford.. If dublin is closer to you, check out JK or Colm's place.

dub1dude

Ok back to the point the other guy made there

If a MMA went up against a bareknuckle fighter.

Bare Knuckle fighters fight real fights on a regular basis against many different people. The regular guys training in MMA who fight the same people every week, in my opinion, would be less prepared.

People just don't walk into Bare Knuckle fighting. They start fighting at a very early age and by the time they hit their mid 20's early 30's or even 40's a good bare knuckle fighter could have say between 100 and 300 fights under their belt and only lest say between 20 and 40 fights. (Not real facts people).

How do you think this would fare against someone who starts training early 20's for say 6 mths, 1 yr, 1.5 yrs, 2yrs, 3yrs, or even of someone of 10 yrs.

Summary Bare Knuckle fighter starts at say 15 - now 35 plenty of fights.

MMA starts at 15 - now 35, stayed at same club never really entered many competitions. Just wanted to train.

I think that's what the point was. If it wasn't then I appologise and please correct. And see lads I didn't copy and paste so if I got something wrong don't slate me.

Just asking for an opinion. Not making a statement.

dub1dude

Maybe forget the hypothetical and find out where these fights take place and invite the best to your tournament of the Best of the Arts? Or to your Boards meeting?

What do you say guys?

Kevin_rc_ie

everything you say is rubbish dub.

PJG

dlofnep wrote:

Put them against any MMA fighter of the same weight, I'd bet my life savings on the MMA practitioner.

yeah agree on that one, no gas, no skills,

cmb.

there never wil be another early ufc-esque tourney - the idea of single styles competing against the other is gone - apndoras box has been opened and we will never get back to that (though bjj was always in esence a hybrid - basically early mma - and as such always had a huge advantagew over single disciplines (that coupled with coupled with stacked brackets and biased rules - but thats another story)

but to find out the answer to this would be the ideal event for bushidoireland - lets face it - they have a lot to do to restore their rep and a tourney would go a long way - imo

john kavanagh

that coupled with coupled with stacked brackets and biased rules - but thats another story

LMAO!

cmb.

john kavanagh wrote:

LMAO!

you dont agree?

Tim_Murphy

cmb. wrote:

you dont agree?

I don't know, No biting, No eye gouging sounds pretty biased to me! :rolleyes:

john kavanagh

wolverine never stood a chance!!

judomick

hey people my first post on this here forum, my question goes to cmb for 10 points and a chance to win a car ......what is Bjj a hybrid of?

Kevin_rc_ie

brazilian loving and japanese huggin.

hi judomick, are you THE judo mick?

TwoKingMick

He's really not a THE.

john kavanagh

are you THE judo mick?

lol!