Legends and Neo-Paganism (Split from "im new to...")

ArdRi79

Throw away the neo paganism stuff If you want to learn about real paganism just study the Legends of your own people.

Sapien

ArdRi79 wrote:

Throw away the neo paganism stuff If you want to learn about real paganism just study the Legends of your own people.

You will find that any pagan worth his or her consecrated salt will know a great deal about Irish mythology, regardless of nationality.

Talliesin

ArdRi79 wrote:

Throw away the neo paganism stuff If you want to learn about real paganism just study the Legends of your own people.

Sounds like neo-Paganism to me.

Nevyn

I am a witch and Wiccan.
My Gods are those of my ancestors and of this land,
it is them I walk with and thier lives I honour with the turn of the wheel.

Rothen

Sapien wrote:

You will find that any pagan worth his or her consecrated salt will know a great deal about Irish mythology, regardless of nationality.

wouldnt agree with you at all there, this statement means that you also must know a great deal of scottish and welsh mythology aswell, which I doubt most do.

Nevyn

There are common threads and stories to all of the Celtic cycles,
be they Gealic (scots/irish), welsh, cornish, of Breton and even some from
the Basque regions of spain. Be they legends, tales of cattle raids or stories of The Folk.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/
Has a lot of the texts and stories.

ArdRi79

Sapien wrote:

You will find that any pagan worth his or her consecrated salt will know a great deal about Irish mythology, regardless of nationality.

I wish that was true, so many of the most highly respected neo-pagans in Ireland put no stock in the legends of our people. Wiccans have a small excuse because wicca isnt a celtic philosophy but the best known Druids of this country openly admitted that they havent studied the legends, pathetic.

Rothen wrote:

wouldnt agree with you at all there, this statement means that you also must know a great deal of scottish and welsh mythology aswell, which I doubt most do.

How can you not know those things and claim to follow a celtic or Gaelic path?

Nevyn

ArdRi79 wrote:

I wish that was true, so many of the most highly respected neo-pagans in Ireland put no stock in the legends of our people.

Many people are called to serve the Gods by many names and in many differnt ways.

I have not meet I person who I would consider to be of good standing with
in pagan circles that disreguard our legends so.
Infact the last An Fainne meeting was entitled Legends of our land spoke of how lucky we are that the places and naming of the land that surrounds us rings with the echos of what had taken place there over the years.
We are blessed that we do have so many tales/legends information about
our Gods and times then they walked this land.

Wiccans have a small excuse because wicca isnt a celtic philosophy

I disagree, I am, was and will always be a child of this land first and foremost .
The path to which I am called encompases that if it did not and it sat ill with
my Gods I would not be on it.

but the best known Druids of this country openly admitted that they havent studied the legends, pathetic.

We do not believe in slander, sly acuastions or rumour mongering here.
Make yourself plain and back up your claims or please referain from making such comments.

Often these are not dead or musty legends at all but tales to be rediscovered,
renewed and relearned. But if you have gotten to the stage were your Gods,
talk to you and you listen and can question them you need not reread the
book of invasion for the nth time; Or if you are blessed/cursed with such recall
of lifes before then they can be more of a guide then what has been
wirrten down, translated, exagerated and retranslated.

We should all know the tales of our land (where ever you are from)
and it's legends,
I tell them often to my children as they were taught to me.

ArdRi79 wrote:

How can you not know those things and claim to follow a celtic or Gaelic path?

Every Path has a learning curve and each learns as they are guided to a thing
or made aware of it.

ArdRi79

Thaed wrote:

I have not meet I person who I would consider to be of good standing with
in pagan circles that disreguard our legends so.

You are either very lucky or you didnt ask the right questions because I have been looking for one person of standing in the neo-pagan society in Ireland who does something other then give lip service to our ancient but well documented culture and I havent been able too find one, nor have any other members of the group I belong too and we have spoken to MANY.

Thaed wrote:

I disagree, I am, was and will always be a child of this land first and foremost .

Excellent I look forward to some fullfilling discussions

Thaed wrote:

We do not believe in slander, sly acuastions or rumour mongering here.
Make yourself plain and back up your claims or please referain from making such comments.

I resent being accused of slandering people I was being dipolmatic and trying to back up my point, but since I am new to the site I will take your word that people are easily offended here and I will not mention my dissatisfaction with Irish neo-paganism past this post.

Thaed wrote:

But if you have gotten to the stage were your Gods,
talk to you and you listen and can question them you need not reread the
book of invasion for the nth time.

Everytime I read the legends I glean something new from them, for me it is not a chore to read the Lebor Gabala Erenn, even purely for fun. Which is not to say there isn't alot to be gained from studying the Lebor Gabala Erenn from other perspectives. If it became a chore for me I would take a look at the reasons why studying the actions of my gods and beliefs of my ancestry bores me.

Thaed wrote:

Every Path has a learning curve and each learns as they are guided to a thing or made aware of it.

I was made aware of the legends as a child watching childrens television and in School. If any student of the esoteric is so lazy that they wait for devine intervention before they begin to study then that student will be doomed to failure and can hardly be considered a student.

Nevyn

ArdRi79 wrote:

You are either very lucky or you didnt ask the right questions because I have been looking for one person of standing in the neo-pagan society in Ireland who does something other then give lip service to our ancient but well documented culture and I havent been able too find one, nor have any other members of the group I belong too and we have spoken to MANY.

]Maybe your not asking the right people or maybe the manner in which you have been asking has ment they have not answered, or your path has not lead you to them.

ArdRi79 wrote:

I resent being accused of slandering people I was being dipolmatic and trying to back up my point, but since I am new to the site I will take your word that people are easily offended here and I will not mention my dissatisfaction with Irish neo-paganism past this post.

First off you if want to start seperate thread on this topic do so.
there are many paths and if you were unhappy then you were wise to
keep searching.

Secondly you can not judege people who you have not meet on how they
care called by the Gods and how they have been asked/told to serve.

Thirdly do not hide behind tact and diplomacy while making bald statements
and not naming names and not backing up your claims it is that simple.
Sorry but that is how boards.ie and this forum works.

ArdRi79 wrote:

Everytime I read the legends I glean something new from them, for me it is not a chore to read the Lebor Gabala Erenn, even purely for fun. Which is not to say there isn't alot to be gained from studying the Lebor Gabala Erenn from other perspectives. If it became a chore for me I would take a look at the reasons why studying the actions of my gods and beliefs of my ancestry bores me.

That is how it should be, but all flowers do not bloom at the same time or in the same way.

ArdRi79 wrote:

I was made aware of the legends as a child watching childrens television and in School. If any student of the esoteric is so lazy that they wait for devine intervention before they begin to study then that student will be doomed to failure and can hardly be considered a student.

Sometimes it take getting a wallop upside the head or a ciris in someones life
to make them look beyond and within. Not everyone has thier eyes opened so
young and grow up with such awareness of how the worlds are and should be.
Every path has it's struggles, the more you are aware the more that seems
to come easily to you the harder your mettle and metal is tested.

Talliesin

ArdRi79 wrote:

Wiccans have a small excuse because wicca isnt a celtic philosophy

Wicca isn't an anything philosophy, it's a craft and a priesthood and anyone working with the Gods on this land should know the legends. You are right though, that Witches will work with Gods foreign to where they are for certain reasons, and there are other legends they have need to know as well, sometimes more so than those of the land they are on.

Now I will freely admit that I have nowhere near enough knowledge myself, because I am young, inexperienced, and because of the order in which I have been brought to things (though if you object to that order, I suggest you take it up with Them in whatever way you deal with Them in your path). I have little knowledge beyond what I got from a certain seanachaidh when I was very young. I am made painfully aware of my lack of knowledge from regular contact with those in the Neo-Pagan community you are so disdainful of.

I really am curious as to just how many elders of the Pagan community you have met with that you are convinced they are so lacking in this knowledge, knowing both some (including some that came to this country from abroad and some who are native to this island) who have learnt an immense amount and some who have been living and breathing the legends since they could talk.

I'm also curious as to why exactly you eschew the "Neo-" of Neo-Paganism. Do you claim to be of an unbroken line from the past in both instructional lineage and practice? If not you are after all Neo-Pagan yourself. If so, I'd be very interested to hear of any bona fides, or at least how you could connect yourself to the name Ard Rí even if only in as loose a way as a web board username, I wouldn't use that title even in jest myself, and I'm just a Neo-.

Sapien

I have the regrettable impression that good Ardri79 has been disappointed not by genuine pagans or witches, but by flighty teenagers inhabiting that transient span of months that exerts itself somewhere between the ages of 16 and 17 when the tremulous mix of hormones, horror movies and social disaffection dictates that the individual explore, like, alternative spiritual paths 'n stuff. At any one time these people, harmless as they are, make up the majority of the "Pagan Community". There are those, however, who weather the endocrinal storm, and cleave to the Path, following it to deep places. Naturally, they tend to be far less conspicuous.

Scire, Velle, Audere et Tacere.

Suaimhneach

I don't know if it's just my luck considering how I was brought up, but is it not just a waste of time to fight against "Neo-Paganism" and other such obvious problems you have with people not knowing their legends.

Would your time and energies not be better spent being happy with your path, rather than trying to convince people they are wrong for their path?

Personally, I find times when people do things in the Small Pagan Culture here in Ireland that do offend me to be small in number by comparison to the knowledgeable, kind and mostly enlightend people I meet other than them.

Maybe you should look, and maybe consider your path is just for you, and not everyone has to follow it. Though, all I can see is that you study the legends, which, I would have thought to be one of the very first stepping stones on anyones path, with them even knowing it, as with the case with childern learning them.

Suaimhneach

Sapien wrote:

I have the regrettable impression that good Ardri79 has been disappointed not by genuine pagans or witches, but by flighty teenagers inhabiting that transient span of months that exerts itself somewhere between the ages of 16 and 17 when the tremulous mix of hormones, horror movies and social disaffection dictates that the individual explore, like, alternative spiritual paths 'n stuff. At any one time these people, harmless as they are, make up the majority of the "Pagan Community". There are those, however, who weather the endocrinal storm, and cleave to the Path, following it to deep places. Naturally, they tend to be far less conspicuous.

Scire, Velle, Audere et Tacere.

I think he has been exposed to more than that, the link in his signature for example leads to a site full of fantastic ideals. I think his anger [for want of a better term] is otherwise inspired.

Nice post though.

Talliesin

Jesjes wrote:

I think he has been exposed to more than that, the link in his signature for example leads to a site full of fantastic ideals.

Which raises an interesting point. Should we judge that site by the individual I had to ban from this site for Spamming about that one, and assume that everyone involved in it is impolite, disrespectful, disreputable and untrustworthy as all Spammers are (and of course, to someone outside the Pagan community that individual could be seen as casting the whole lot of us in such a light), or should we just assume that there is one such person who likes the site and reserve our judgement about the rest of that community until other members have shown their mettle?

I would say the latter. That one person in a community behaves badly does not necessarily reflect on the rest of the community (and the degree to which a community can deal with those who bring them into disrepute is often limited).

Further that one person in a community lacks certain knowledge doesn't necessarily reflect on that community at all, it can do in the case of elders but even there they may have biases in their scholarship due to the nature of their own calling.

I'm afraid if ArdRi is going to make claims based on limited encounters he is in the position of a greenhouse-dweller throwing stones.

Suaimhneach

ArdRi79 wrote:

Throw away the neo paganism stuff If you want to learn about real paganism just study the Legends of your own people.

There is also a problem with this statement. How do you define "Real Paganism"?

found for paganism.
pa·gan Audio pronunciation of "paganism" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pgn)
n.

1. One who is not a Christian, Muslim, or Jew, especially a worshiper of a polytheistic religion.
2. One who has no religion.
3. A non-Christian.
4. A hedonist.
5. A Neo-Pagan.

Would you describe it as studying your own legends? Manys a student/lecturer and person with an interest who does that and doesnt describe themselves as Pagan or Neo Pagan for that matter. In fact, quite the opposite can be ture.

So I think the problem you have lies with other people and their practicing of their religion. Which begs the question, why did you come here? And as I said above, your time would be much better spent enjoying your own path rather than convincing others theirs is wrong.

[edit] Oh and Jon, the guy you banned is one of the two founders of the CC site [/edit]

Talliesin

Jesjes wrote:

Oh and Jon, the guy you banned is one of the two founders of the CC site

So for all intents and purposes an elder in the community. :rolleyes:

Learning legends is all well and good, but I'd prioritise learning how to conduct oneself in public and at least appear to behave honourably TBH.

ArdRi79

Talliesin wrote:

Should we judge that site by the individual I had to ban from this site for Spamming about that one, and assume that everyone involved in it is impolite, disrespectful, disreputable and untrustworthy as all Spammers are

Being well aquainted with the Lad you banned for "Spamming" I can solidly say he possess none of the aformentioned qualities, he is a man of truth honor and education. He just didnt read the Board rules before he posted.

Talliesin wrote:

Learning legends is all well and good, but I'd prioritise learning how to conduct oneself in public and at least appear to behave honourably

You clearly prize social interaction above the will of your gods and the beliefs of your ancestry. We in An Craobh Crua do not.

Jesjes wrote:

your time would be much better spent enjoying your own path rather than convincing others theirs is wrong

I actually came here to find someone to perform a more perminant rite then a handfasting for my wedding. You made a good point I got carried away, I had a go at Christor and the lads for doing the same on our forums and chasing you off, I apologise for my hipocracy.

Jesjes wrote:

is it not just a waste of time to fight against "Neo-Paganism"

It does look like an insurmountable task sometimes. If you want to practice an esoteric philosophy that does no harm to our culture then more power to your elbow but our acnestors suffered fought and starved to preserve our culture and its beliefs I think that should be honored.

Take a look at what being Irish means to those of irish ancestry today, drinking heavily and supporting the IRA, thats not right when there is so much more. I have heard people invoke hecete and morrigan in the same breath and profess to follow a gaelic path. the true beliefs of our ancestors is being slowly buried by more marketable philosophies to the point where if a young student wants to study the religious beliefs of his people s/he is confronted with a wealth of Wicca and a drought of native literature. Its even difficult to lay your hands on decent translations of the Legends.

Hence An Chartlann.

Suaimhneach

ArdRi79 wrote:

You made a good point I got carried away, I had a go at Christor and the lads for doing the same on our forums and chasing you off, I apologise for my hipocracy.

It was more insulted off. And it was more Cristóir than the lads. But sure, thanks for the thoughts anyhoo. It is a shame, because I agree wholeheartedly with the *aims* of it.

It does look like an insurmountable task sometimes. If you want to practice an esoteric philosophy that does no harm to our culture then more power to your elbow but our acnestors suffered fought and starved to preserve our culture and its beliefs I think that should be honored.

I think you would be doing your ancestors more of an honour to share your knowledge, as you are doing with An Chartlann, as opposed to belief bashing. Which is what your doing comes across as.

Might I suggest that I think you need to find a new name for what it is you are fighting against. I feel, as many do, that it is a worthy cause, if aimed in the right direction. I call them "Witchy Poo's" others call them "Fluffies". In general, you are also fighting against the term Gael/Celtic and so forth being used so casually to rob people of their right to their own history by giving them Wiccan etc instead. By that I mean, if someone wants to go on an alternate path, they are met with Wiccan/Witchcraft much before they find their own history. This is an understandable frustration from your part. That is not to say that Wiccan is wrong, but that is what you come across as saying, and this insults many. You are fighting battles against the wrong people.

Take a look at what being Irish means to those of irish ancestry today, drinking heavily and supporting the IRA

That is quite a big brush you're using there!! Most of those people don't have any belifs, and in their own time, if they ever get there they will find their own path. And most likely, it will include their ancestors, whether they themselves are Witch, Wiccan, Pagan, fcukin' yellow for all I care.

An Chartlann is a beautiful thing, which is to be repsected in its own right, undoubtably. I propose the promotion of this, rather than the beating of other peoples belifs.

Talliesin

ArdRi79 wrote:

You clearly prize social interaction above the will of your gods and the beliefs of your ancestry.

Outside of my role as moderator - which is after all to enable social interaction - I always have time for those people who are mine, but outside of that often don't prize social interaction at all according to my mood. Funnily enough, that sets me at odds with the Celts who from what I can gather did value it immensely.

Having been dealing with Spammers for many years now I don't consider Spamming to be honourable, and honour is both something that I would go against the will of my Gods to uphold and that my Gods expect from me. However, some have told me that the guy in question was more unaware of Internet culture than anything else. In any case, I don't think we need say any more about that.

The beliefs of my ancestry is another matter. My ancestors are Christian for many generations back. The clan of my bloodline has a history of fighting for Christiandom and one rather amusing incident during the in-fighting amongst that religion when someone from the clan managed to trigger the biggest riot in the history of Galloway (it was a Geddes that threw the first missile of the riot, but a Hannay whose head that it was thrown at).

So, I'm afraid while my ancestors have had such a belief in Christianity that they were prepared to fight and die for that faith, I do not share it.

Going further back, well I'm an Irishman, and so I am of mixed ancestry - this is an island of invasions and minglings.

I have a surname of Scottish descent - a family believed to have come to Scotland from Scandanavia. But while I have a feel for the Scandanavian Gods in much of old Dublin I haven't worked with any of them and have had only one mild encounter.

I can also trace Celtic blood, but given that there could be almost anything else in the mix. Yes that I work with Celtic gods is partly to do with my ancestry, and a lot more to do with where I am, but I also work with other Gods and always shall. There is a difference in my devotion to Scáthach and to Aradia, they are different and complementary things, but it does not matter that I have no Tuscan blood that I know of. Besides, there are other types of historical links.

ArdRi79 wrote:

I actually came here to find someone to perform a more perminant rite then a handfasting for my wedding.

Now that depends on how you define your terms. The rite from Brehon law that is generally translated as "handfasting" is a mere betrothal, and hence I guess not what you want. The rites in the Craft generally also termed "handfasting" can be for as brief a period, but they can also be for considerably longer than "until death do us part" and have effects that last so long that I'd recommend they not be done on such terms unless the couple already have memories that go back before this life time, even if not of each other. Many people don't remember beyond the one life and that makes it difficult to understand the ways in which we can be bound to people.

Still, that's meant as a quiet word of caution rather than a warning, I'm a big romantic really and I wish you and your betrothed luck in finding someone suitable to join you, and in your lives together.

ArdRi79 wrote:

I have heard people invoke hecete and morrigan in the same breath and profess to follow a gaelic path.

Well, I will mix pantheons (though not willy-nilly, nor without good cause, and really I can't think why one would call on Hecate and the Morrigan at the same time though no doubt someone has done so - there are stranger mixtures within the same pantheon though, Scáthach and Aoife at the same time would be worse) but then I don't claim to follow a Gaelic path, I claim merely to be a Witch who works in Ireland and who has some ancestral connection to the Gods here, but who works with Gods on the basis of who calls to me more than on who has been on this soil the longest.

It is great to be able to walk up Crom Dubh's mountain as I did this Lughnasadh, but I have no less a devotion to Aradia because travelling abroad is not convenient for me and I may never get the chance to walk where La Bella Pellegrina walked.

ArdRi97 wrote:

the true beliefs of our ancestors is being slowly buried by more marketable philosophies to the point where if a young student wants to study the religious beliefs of his people s/he is confronted with a wealth of Wicca and a drought of native literature.

That must make trying to find the material you want seem like looking for a needle in a haystack. Of course, it makes looking for material on Wicca seem like looking for a needle in a large pile of needles.

I have particularly little time for the likes of Edain McCoy who tries to Hibernify Wicca or Witchify Ireland. I'm not sure which, but her "Witta" (she even claims that as an ancient Irish word, really, my lack of knowledge of the language is dreadful, but I know enough to know that word couldn't possibly be Irish) and her penny dreadfuls are an insult to the Craft, to the ancient faith of this country and also to our modern Irish culture.

Really, those who do you and yours a disservice in this manner do me and mine no favours either.

rcunning03

To have again in this land a body of Gael that embody those great people, their aspirations and their strength.
A quote from the writings of P.H. Pearse best illustrates my point: "We must recreate and perpetuate in Ireland the knightly tradition of Cuchullain, ‘Better is short life with honour than long life with dishonour’; ‘I care not though I were to live but one day and one night, if only my fame and my deeds live after me’; the noble tradition of the Fianna, ‘we, the Fianna, never told a lie, falsehood was never imputed to us’; ‘strength in our hands, truth on our lips, and cleanness in our hearts’." It is these values that we must promote again among our fellow Gael, it is that combination of the savage and the serene. This spirit is still alive in the Gael, albeit scattered across the land, hidden and in many cases dormant, this needs to change! We must promote the sentiments that run throughout our legends among those in our land who are lost, who feel the shame that has been bred into them about being ‘Irish’. To be ‘Irish’ is not to be of a race of happy fools, it is to be the inheritor of that noble and savage heart that has proven many times that it will never die. We must breed into the Gael, the love of life giving myth, the pride in our ancestry, our traditions and our great heritage. The very spirit that gives life to myth must now give life to purpose! The strength of those great people will be the strength of ourselves.

Some very powerful stuff on your website, congratulations ! your the first militant pagans I'm aware of. I thought solicitors and barristers (the great ones, not the personal injury lawyers) should of be included along with poets and blacksmith's, cause I believe they are the closet things we have to Druids in modern Ireland.

I believe that if we were to go back to being a pagan civilisation, it would not mean a return to the Iron age or even the end of our love of money. Our ancestors use to decorate themselves with gold, they enjoyed the good life to a level that government legislation forbids in modern times. A Druid in the royal court of the High king in Tara, would be driving a top of the range Mercedes, wearing watches made of pure gold and dressed in the finest fabrics in the world.

However I also believe that under a pagan system, we would spend a lot more on research and development, cause knowledge enhances our beliefs, buildings would be prettier to honour the land and impress the gods and our social structure would not leave anybody behind (this would be possible cause the Government would have very large tax reciepts from the sale of the good stuff, which would be legal) and nobody would begrudge anybody who has money, cause they would've had to earn it. This is a good article about a "Celtic" banking system and other issues.

http://www.shee-eire.com/Misc/CelticView.htm

Two more quick points then I'll leave.

1. I have to disagree with the person that said majority of pagans are teenagers, that has not been my experience. Admittedly I have only been to a couple of pagan events, but most people seem middle aged or 20's / 30's. At An fainne last month, I only saw 2 people I thought might be teenagers. Could you be mistaking teenage Goths for pagans ?

2. The craobhcrua website is very well written and I would agree the basic principles of what your proposing but I might disagree with how you would intend to realise this vision of a Utopian pagan Ireland. Change can be achieved, Afghanistan had become very liberal and open to westerners, who would camp in the mountains smoking weed and impurifying their muslim women, then the Islamic revoulution came along and everything was made to be exactly the way it was in the time of Allah (no tv, radio etc).

I care not though I were to live but one day and one night, if only my fame and my deeds live after me

I wonder how that translates into Arabic ?

I'm not trying to be smart or offensive, I geniunely like your website, but how would you define Irish ? That can be a very messy business to be getting into.

Boru

Hi All

Cristóir is ainm dom . I am the member of Craobh Crua who posted against the rules and who was mentioned a few times in this thread. First of all I would like to state for the record I apologise for posting "spam" as you call it but I can assure you I was not trying to disregard your rules in anyway. To be honest I was not aware of so many rules and regulations when it comes to internet forums as I have not used them much in the past but I thank you for making me aware of such things and I do in fact think they are a good idea (rules that is).

The reason I posted was I thought the pagan community that uses this forum might be interested in what our organisation is trying to achieve and I would like to thank ArdRí for doing so the proper way.

Beir bua agus beannacht

Cristóir

---

Cristóir,

you orginal account was not banned from all of boards.ie only from this forum.
In the wake of what happened to your orginal account you should have
pmed or private messaged myself or the other mod to have the ban lifted
as it was a case of not reading the rules ( which is against the rules )

Creating an second or subsequent accounts to get arround a ban I also a bannible offense.
newbie FAQ hopefully this will be of help.

Now I have to ban this account but do pm Talliesen about getting the ban on
your orginal account lifted.

Thaed

Suaimhneach

If you have a note for me Cristóir could you kindly PM it to me instead of posting it here.

A tip for you, generally if you've been banned from a site it is considered rude to rejoin under a different username, though it may be forgiven as you are not hiding as people who are banned would usually use an alias.

"I don't like organisations that make money of the back of our spirituality"
That is an entirely different thread/issue, and you obviously hold a grudge for me/druidschool, so I'll keep my opinions to myself here as I did on the Craobh Crua forum. Though at least this thread will not be deleted.

"I am sorry if I insulted you or you took things personally but I will not have Craobh Crua associated with such organisations"
Insulting me as you did, and me taking things personally are two seperate issues, which again, I don't feel should be discussed on this thread nor is it of any concern for the members of this board. "Such organisations" are well respected among the pagan community, I dont see the big problem Craobh Crua has with them. And I am not talking *just* Druidschool here.

I'll say it again, I don't want or think that this should be discussed here.

Nevyn

if a young student wants to study the religious beliefs of his people s/he is confronted with a wealth of Wicca and a drought of native literature.

"a wealth of wicca."

Now that made me laugh.
there are many books about so called Wicca out there and a lot of them are crap. llewlyen publishing has a lot to answer for.
There are books of eletic wicca that is not the real thing for to be of the
'wicca' and it's lineages you have to be part of a coven and you have to
be initated by some one in the tradiations not just pick up a book.

Anyone who is truely intrested in how our people lived, loved, celebrated life
and worshiped the Gods of this land can find out if they look in the right places.

Talliesin

Thaed (in editing Boru's post) wrote:

you orginal account was not banned from all of boards.ie only from this forum.

No, actually I did ban his account from the site entirely, as I do for any account Spamming anywhere on the site. I am especially fast to act in cases where the very first post someone makes is an advertisement.

The fact that this post makes veiled (but not that veiled, the Pagan community is small) references to a difference of opinion between Boru/Cristóir and Druidschool disregards one of the rules for this particular forum "This board is not affiliated with any group, coven, grove, list, moot, or association. However it isn't unfriendly with them. Discussions about such groups are okay, but this is not the place to settle internal politics."

Thinking about this in terms of the old Celtic ways I'm reminded immediately of the value placed on courtesy, and on hospitality - and hospitality goes both ways, not acting in a manner compatible with your hosts' customs, which in this case means at least reading the rules, is not the act compatible with this virtue.

I'm also given to thinking that since I consider Spamming not merely being a discourteous act but an act of outright hostility. Now it is my job as moderator to protect this forum and as s-mod to protect the site as a whole from acts of hostility. By the old ways I'd be looking to add a new severed head to my collection.

Now, call me soft-hearted, but I'm going to not ban the Boru account entirely (though by the rules I should, and if another s-mod steps in and does so it is not my place to second-guess their judgement). Indeed if asked I'll swap the ban so that the Cristóir account is active again.

Now, from what I've seen of the Craobh Crua site's material I am impressed. From what I've seen of certain people's conduct I am less so.

I really don't want to get into a feud with another website, there are more important battles to fight and I'd much rather have Craobh Crua noted here as a place were people interested in the strain of Pagan thought it deals with can go.

As such I am going to extend the olive branch and unban whichever of the two accounts Cristóir would rather use. I still have a sword in my other hand though and I am not going to have much patience if there is any further rule-breaking or discourtesy here.

ArdRi79

Thaed wrote:

"There are many books about so called Wicca out there and a lot of them are crap. There are books of eletic wicca that is not the real thing for to be of the 'wicca' and it's lineages.

You made my point for me there Thaed. The reason I would rail against Wicca that uses or claims to use the Gaelic or celtic pantheon is because it misleads people searching for the real beliefs of their ancestors. Starting out you dont know your head from your elbow where the esoteric is concerned and you believe what you read snd once you are on a path its hard to surrender the momentum and change. its what I call the wicca spider- Fly effect.

Thaed wrote:

you have to be part of a coven and you have to
be initated by some one in the tradiations not just pick up a book.

You make joining a coven sound like signing up to a website, joining a coven isnt that simple, its like joining a family. You dont just walk up to someone and say "HEY I WANNA LEARN WICCA AND STUFF" to join a coven you need someone to sponsor you and to get that you have to go to pagan moots and distinguish the wannabies from the real thing and there again we have the Head - Elbow factor.

Thaed wrote:

Anyone who is truely intrested in how our people lived, loved, celebrated lifeand worshiped the Gods of this land can find out if they look in the right places.

Where are those places? when you go to even the best book shops looking for simple Irish Legends you cant find them, try to order anything deeper and people look at you like a dog trying to understand English. If it was really that easy Craobh Crua would have very little weight to its arguments and the An Chartlann section that Cristóir busted his ass to get up there wouldnt be nessesary or as lauded as it is.

Its easy to argue, but are you willing to prove your point, I have been looking for esoteric interpretations of the Tain can you find me one book or a solid link to one online Archive for the esoteric interpretations of the Tain?

And while we are on the subjectof Cristóir Talliesin why dont you just leave the Boru account alone instead of going through all this drama?

Talliesin

ArdRi79 wrote:

The reason I would rail against Wicca that uses or claims to use the Gaelic or celtic pantheon is because it misleads people searching for the real beliefs of their ancestors.

The Wicca work with those that will work with them. The books etc. that claim that Wicca is in and of itself Gaelic or Celtic are indeed misleading people about the beliefs of their ancestors, but they're misleading them about Wicca as well. You can hardly blame the Wicca for that.

ArdRi79 wrote:

You make joining a coven sound like signing up to a website, joining a coven isnt that simple, its like joining a family.

I thought Thaed's point was that it isn't simple.

Nevyn

ArdRi79 wrote:

Starting out you dont know your head from your elbow where the esoteric is concerned and you believe what you read snd once you are on a path its hard to surrender the momentum and change. its what I call the wicca spider- Fly effect.

Lol if that were true I would be a tantric grandmaster at this stage.

Yes people have been moving away from what are perived as mainstream christianity and are looking for other ways and thinking for themselves,
but path of looking and seeking is to read, learn, discount and disreguard
what does not fit.

Part of finding your path maybe becoming an anoying flufflie/electic pagan
for a while and some people never move beyond that that is thier level.
Maybe that is as far as they go in this life time.
Some people take longer to seperate the wheat from the chaff, some never learn.
Many are called but few are chosen.

You make joining a coven sound like signing up to a website, joining a coven isnt that simple, its like joining a family. You dont just walk up to someone and say "HEY I WANNA LEARN WICCA AND STUFF" to join a coven you need someone to sponsor you and to get that you have to go to pagan moots and distinguish the wannabies from the real thing and there again we have the Head - Elbow factor.

Joining a real coven should be one of the hardest things to do.
Leaving should be the easiest.
There is no one size fits all with any magical group.
Anyone that welcomes a person in too easily is doing that person, themsleves
and the others in that group a disservice.

There are differnt strokes for differnt folks, fluffies often find fluffie covens
and those who arent will find those who arent.
Those that are called to Astru Shamanism and Druidry find their way too.
People have moved from one to another as they and thier lives evlove.
The Gods have hand in these things after all.

Where are those places? when you go to even the best book shops looking for simple Irish Legends you cant find them, try to order anything deeper and people look at you like a dog trying to understand English.

Well I learned my love of the legends at my grandparents knees, and the first
book I ever had of them was my primary school history book in 4th class.
There is not one definative collated scholarly work what will give you all
that you are looking for. I would recamend the books of Morgan Llewellyn
to those that want a feel and an idea who cant slog through the scholarly
works at first.

Maybe there is not ment to be easy to acess.
Maybe it is part of a mystery
that you must search and seek and learn those lessons
as they come to you instead of being handed a guide to and having
what should be journeys of the heart and soul spoon feed to you.

ArdRi79

That was Thaeds point. I used Thaeds point to reinfoce my own.

Thaed made the point that the majority of books available in the shops are misleading and the only way to follow a truely Wiccan path is to join a coven but because that is a social mission in itself those that attempt to follow a Celtic path through Wicca get mislead either into believing the crap they read in books or into a social scene instead of esoteric study. For the lucky few they meet a dualist path at odds with our tripalist heritage.

All paths lead the student away from the esoteric knowege and practices of our ancestry hence Celtic and Gaelic Wicca damages our culture.

I cannot believe you reccomended people read Morgan Llewellyn books for esoteric meaning. Morgan Llewellyn is a historical fiiction author thats like telling people to watch Michael Collins to learn Irish History.

You couldnt find the esoteric interpretations I asked for, How about an esoteric interpretation of any of our legends?

Nevyn

those that attempt to follow a Celtic path through Wicca get mislead either into believing the crap they read in books or into a social scene instead of esoteric study.

A lot of the generic stuff published as 'wicca' is just that 'stuff' and misleading on many many levels.

All paths lead the student away from the esoteric knowege and practices of our ancestry hence Celtic and Gaelic Wicca damages our culture.

and you know this how ?
are you an elder in a tradition oath bound branch of Wicca and privy to all
that may or may not take place or be included in those paths ?

I would not claim to know or judge those that are members of O.T.O.
or any of the Druidic orders from the outside about things I could not have knowledge of.

Those who have published 'stuff' about cletic and gealic wicca people
who got pain dor writing a book and that always colours it esp if it is
published by lewllyn.
Do not confuse thosw people with other that are of the Wicca.
Or paint all of those who are the same.
you may as well say all catholice priests are pedophiles.

I cannot believe you reccomended people read Morgan Llewellyn books for esoteric meaning. Morgan Llewellyn is a historical fiiction author thats like telling people to watch Michael Collins to learn Irish History.

I said they are a good starting place, there are many things that are hidden
in fiction of all sorts. If it makes a person dream those dreams and seek a better understanding and makes what was come a live in thier hearts
then yes they should read them as a start.

You couldnt find the esoteric interpretations I asked for,
How about an esoteric interpretation of any of our legends?

look at the word you have used esoteric

1.
1. Intended for or understood by only a particular group: an esoteric cult. See Synonyms at mysterious.
2. Of or relating to that which is known by a restricted number of people.
2.
1. Confined to a small group: esoteric interests.
2. Not publicly disclosed; confidential.

esoteric

adj : confined to and understandable by only an enlightened inner circle; "a compilation of esoteric philosophical theories"

and you expect these to be just lying about already published ?
or if any one had access to such things through thier path or order to
just and them over to anyone ?

I would not go to the differnt 'Wiccan' traditions, or Druidic orders ect
and ask loudly in a public place like an online bulletin board for thier
esoteric knowledge related to anything.

If you want to take a good look on how our so called myths and legends
have shaped us as a people I would suggest you start with reading
some Carl Jung
and then go back and look at the sagas again..
ESp after reading about Jungian Archetypes

Oh and If you have a problem with me using the Gaelic or celtic pantheon
for they are my Gods and Goddess' take it up with them.

For if it was so wrong they would take issue with it themselves.
I am sure my patron Goddes would be pleased to hear from you that is
if you wish to take up that topic with the Mother of Mechi.

ArdRi79

EEEEH yeah, well thats fine. You know but you cant tell me because you are bound by terrible oaths. Wicca at work hoarding knowege it has no right too.

I dont know what O.T.O. is unless its Ordo Templi Orientis and what the hell has freemasonry to do with this discussion. I would love to rant on about elitism, capitalism and wildly interchangable godheads but they arent worth the skincells I'd loose typing.

This conversation isnt going anywhere productive so Im giving up on it. I will state that I am not an elder in an oath bound tradition of wicca, but Elders I have spoken to have gladly discussed the legends with me so I assume you're being hostile because I insulted you and Im sorry for it.

Nevyn

No I am not insulted at all just clarifing.

Wicca at work hoarding knowege it has no right too.

And you may say the same about any group that has oath and traditions that
it hordes knowledge. Colleges horde knowlege in that case as well.

Gods are not interchangible at all, I sure as hell would not be comfortible
working with the likes of Odin or with Zesus.

now if you want to dicuss legends fine with me I'd love to as I am sure others
there would enjoy it too.
Pick one start a thread on it and lets see were we get to with it.
The listings of them one your site a quite good.

Talliesin

ArdRi79 wrote:

You know but you cant tell me because you are bound by terrible oaths.

No, but as soon as I find out, I won't tell you.

ArdRi79

You will notice Craobh Crua do not hoard what is the right of our collective people Craobh Crua have put alot of work into a website that gives the knowlege of our people back to them. That has not been done by any other group or individual not The Farrers not Silja Muller not Con Conor not anbloody body, those who seek to exploit the Gael to their own ends should be ashamed.

B.T.W. Grow up Talliesin how the hell is I wont tell you contributing to anything but conflict, some bloody moderator you are. little megalomaniac

Talliesin

ArdRi79 wrote:

You will notice Craobh Crua do not hoard what is the right of our collective people Craobh Crua have put alot of work into a website that gives the knowlege of our people back to them.

Fair play.

ArdRi79 wrote:

That has not been done by any other group or individual not The Farrers not Silja Muller not Con Conor not anbloody body

The Farrars have frequently been criticised as oathbreakers. Technically they are not, but they've sailed pretty close to the wind as far as that goes. Frankly it seems pretty bizarre to hear them accused of hoarding knowledge.
Keeping true to your oaths is itself part of our people's heritage. If you have sworn an oath or had a geis laid upon you you keep to it, should it mean your death or worse. I'm sure you can recall at least one legend where that happens.
So for that matter is keeping certain knowledge to those who have been taught it in certain ways, or else Connla son of Aoife could have looked up the use of the gae bulga in a book when Scáthach didn't teach it to him and remained undefeated by Cú Chulainn.

ArdRi79 wrote:

those who seek to exploit the Gael to their own ends should be ashamed

Neither the Farrars nor Silja claim any Gaelic heritage (I don't know Con or know of Con, and have met him only in passing, but I have seen at least one part of his influence upon the community and it speaks well of him - beyond that I can't comment), though they have all worked with Gaelic gods as Witches. You don't snatch that relationship with the gods from some secret hidden tome, you get it trust upon you by Them, and often you wish they'd left you the **** alone.

ArdRi79 wrote:

B.T.W. Grow up Talliesin how the hell is I wont tell you contributing to anything but conflict

It says two things - one is that I don't lay claim to much in the way of oathbound knowledge (and what little I have can be found in a book, though I won't repeat it because its being in a book makes me no less oathbound). The other is that if I come to something through making an oath I will keep to that oath no matter what.

Do you pay attention to the legends you read? If so I marvel at how you have come to the attitude that you have towards oaths and what is oathbound.

ArdRi79 wrote:

some bloody moderator you are. little megalomaniac

I've been called that before, though not by someone who calls himself "Ard Ri".

Really, I've bent the rules for one of your people enough for you to get snotty about my moderating here. Any more comments on it other than a proper complaint (as in actually compaining about something in particular, rather than general bitching) in a PM or on the Feedback forum will result in my generally short supply of patience running out.

ArdRi79

This is the very last thing Im going to say on this thread.

I was not acccusing The Farrers, Silja Muller or Con Conner of hoarding knowledge or exploiting the Gael I was using them as three Pillars of the neo-pagan commuinity.

I first used my name because I loved Tara, then with a little research I came to find that my last name comes from Bran son of Febal High King of Ireland of Immram Bran. I also came to understand that the Y chromasome never changes so genetically speaking I am 50% Bran son of Febal the rest could be insect and I'd still have the right to use it as my login. The 79 is the year I was born I use it to distinguish myself from the other O'Broins

There's the explanation of my login, dont pee yourself with excitement.

Suaimhneach

ArdRi79 wrote:

The Farrers not Silja Muller not Con Conor not anbloody body, those who seek to exploit the Gael to their own ends should be ashamed

Have you met any of these people? Or are you going upon what Stiofán and Cristóir tell you? Or are you just assuming that CC are better than everyone else because they're offering a "better" version of what you believe is right.

I really have a serious issue with my Dads name being on that list, and I would prefare if you did not slander my family name with your inaccurate perception of what we are, or what we do.

So far the only positive thing CC have done is An Chartlann, which you use as a tool to defend yourselves, as if that makes it okay or earns you the right to say others are wrong in what they do/share/practice. Did you have any part in the making of An Chartlann ArdRí? Can you lay claim to that other than considering yourself a member of the group?

If we were to judge you as veriouciously as you have judged others we would see you in an extremely dark light. The CC forum is one example. There have been *two* threads erased from there, both of which had people complaining/expressing their concern for CC. Thats threads/opinions entirely taken off and disregarded as if they didnt happen. Hardly honourable. Now as a group CC are new, very new to the Pagan Community, and so far all they have done is slander those who have been working long and hard within this community, which hardly bodes well for them. Now you've [CC, you and Cristóir] have managed to give yourselves bad names on one of the main pagan boards online by condeming peoples ways of life. You are just as bad as you consider everyone else to be.

Is the problem the CC have with Druidschool the fact that it offers a homestudy course? "making money off the back of our heritage" I belive is a quote from one of ye. This is the closest I can get to assuming your problem with Druidschool, so I will point out for you that Druidschool has a wealth of information and articles and useful resources available in the site, entirely seperate to the online course part. And also that some of your members on the forum actually take part in online courses, members that you have not forced to leave by bashing their beliefs taht is.

You should take a look at the group your supporting, their actions and their attitudes, before assuming that you can comment on other individuals and groups.

Suaimhneach

ArdRi79 wrote:

I first used my name because I loved Tara, then with a little research I came to find that my last name comes from Bran son of Febal High King of Ireland of Immram Bran. I also came to understand that the Y chromasome never changes so genetically speaking I am 50% Bran son of Febal the rest could be insect and I'd still have the right to use it as my login. The 79 is the year I was born I use it to distinguish myself from the other O'Broins

There's the explanation of my login, dont pee yourself with excitement.

I lay claim to The O'Connor Dons of Connacht and many can trace their ancestory and claim the right to use a name. However, this does not denote you are an ArdRí, or high king. Which is nearer the point Talliesin was making, but dont worry us peeing ourselves.

Talliesin

ArdRi79 wrote:

I was not acccusing The Farrers, Silja Muller or Con Conner of hoarding knowledge or exploiting the Gael I was using them as three Pillars of the neo-pagan commuinity.

You mentioned them in the same breath as your claim to be bettering the rest of the Neo-Pagan community (and unless you can show an unbroken lineage you are yourself Neo-Pagan) in your not hoarding knowledge, though I don't know of anything you have published that wasn't already published whereas the Farrars, rightly or wrongly, actually brought new knowledge into the public domain so that claim has no legs to stand on either.

ArdRi79 wrote:

I also came to understand that the Y chromasome never changes so genetically speaking I am 50% Bran son of Febal

Could be as low as 2.17% or as low as 0% - there are 23 pairs of chromosones in human cells, and only one (the Y chromosone as you state) can be traced reliably without the use of genetic testing. That reliability is dependant on there being no adoption (a common practice encouraged by the Old Ways) and on the claim as to who was the father being correct every time.

This isn't particularly advanced genetics, and indeed it's common sense - the whole point of sexual rather than asexual reproduction is to mix the genepool up a bit, otherwise we'd all be pureblood or near pureblood members of one tribe or another, and hence very poor at adapting and evolving to meet the conditions we live in.

ArdRi79 wrote:

There's the explanation of my login, dont pee yourself with excitement.

I'm not terribly excited, it just struck me as amusing to claim I was a megalomaniac for following the rules when you have that name. I couldn't give a toss what username you use (unless it contained profanity, I have rules to follow) but it did make your claim funny.

Now if I want to actually counter that claim I could point out that I have repeatedly given you and yours breaks. (I was even inclined to give Cristóir's inital post a break but his breech of the site rules rather than the forum rules meant another SMod would have banned him anyway, indeed I got him in a clean-up run I used to do at a time when I was normally the only SMod online before I even noticed what forum the post was in).

Your posts have frequently been against the charter, your attitude is clearly against the spirit of the charter and yet I have given you break after break.

In a way this was perhaps crueler of me than had I banned you - since in this thread you have demonstrated yourself to be full of it as to what you are claiming. You talk of the importance of the old ways with one breath and with the next you not only refuse to honour them yourself but condemn others for honouring them.

Someone who does not respect the oaths and vows of another has no right to make any claims as to how they or anyone else lives by the old ways. If all you want to do is tell stories then that is grand, the art of the seanachie is a fine and nobel one and we could do with more of it. If you want the stories to mean more to you than that then put up or shut up. If you want to know what isn't written then either ask Them, or start acting like you are someone who can be trusted with that knowledge.

Nevyn

Look there are only 3 ways you could go and find out what were the true old ways.
( irish wont work for the celts invaded them, celitic wont work for there have
been many invasions after that so what would such old true ways of ancient ansestral hertiage even be termed ?)

1 build a time machine and go back two thousand years and record stuff but then you have the heineberg principal that the act of abserving something
changes it.

2 Happen to find sevral great big huge stones totally enscribed with ogham,
that some poor sod made it his lifes work and that of his family to come to
take down all the secret estoric oral tradtions of how the Gods were or want
to be worshiped.

3 open your eyes, heart, mind and soul and let the Gods guide you to and
in the ways they wish you to serve them. Pursure what ever path will
allow you to conect to them in a way they aprove of and will give you the skills you need.

ArdRi79

Im not going to get into anymore personal stuff From now on tis is a pagan baord and im sticking to basic pagan issues.

I disagree completely there are many places you can draw from like Archaeological sources, the historical sources from roman authors,Insular literature ie The Legends and our folk traditions. All it takes is a little time and effort.

Here is a link to a paper on the topic
http://draeconin.com/database/celtreli.htm

Nevyn

ArdRi79 wrote:

I disagree completely there are many places you can draw from like Archaeological sources, the historical sources from roman authors,Insular literature ie The Legends and our folk traditions. All it takes is a little time and effort.

Here is a link to a paper on the topic
http://draeconin.com/database/celtreli.htm

Yes but that will all be reconstuction of ways past at best
and hence could be considered Neo.

and you have to take anything the romans reported with a huge dose of salts. A lot of what they recorded about the old relgions was often willfully misleading depending on who they were and to whom they were reporting.

Yes the legends tell us a lot and the old traditions are still held to in a lot of the places that had maybe a veneer of christiantly smeared over them
but a lot of it is lost and will unfortunatly stay that way.

Intresting paper, (shame really that the depts in maynooth and UCD dont
have simular online rescources tbh) but it is generic 'Celtic' and there are
many difference between those that were celts but irish/welsh/manx/breton/basque/cornish.
and I dont like the fact it is trying to sort out the celtic gods along
greek/roman lines.

A lot of the things listed there I have already done ( and will continue to do)
from a very young age when I first devoured every book on faire tales at the local libraries.

One of the things I have always found wonderfull is that our Gods
( in many cases choose to come here) walk these lands and played
out thier lifes (mortal) drama before moving on , just out of reach or
beyond the veil.

They lived, lusted,loved, longed for, lost and endured where we are
and can be in this very landscape. One of the reasons Eire is so sacred to me.

DaisyDuke

Just as a little aside, Silja isn't pagan any more. Hasn't been for a couple of years.
Just an FYI, and all of that.

Asiaprod

Talliesin wrote: The rites in the Craft generally also termed "handfasting" can be for as brief a period, but they can also be for considerably longer than "until death do us part" and have effects that last so long that I'd recommend they not be done on such terms unless the couple already have memories that go back before this life time, even if not of each other. Many people don't remember beyond the one life and that makes it difficult to understand the ways in which we can be bound to people.

Can you provide me with more info on being bound together beyond ones life time. I am sure you have seen my posting on the Christianity board where I explained I had spent 30 years as a RC before converting to Buddhism (not much room for Pagans beliefs here in Japan, in fact japanese thought on any of this topic is spartan to say the least. One of the reasons I became interested in Budhism was the concept of reincarnation, and more so, the concept of spending previous lives in the company of people one knows in this life. I have a keen interest in old world religeons that do not depend on God or the bible, but are rooted firmly in this world, nature and a natural order of things. Any pointers or explinations would be very appriciated.

Peter Kearney (Tokyo)

Nevyn

DaisyDuke wrote:

Just as a little aside, Silja isn't pagan any more. Hasn't been for a couple of years.
Just an FYI, and all of that.

We Don't out people here one way or the other.
Silja is a registered member of this site and if she wished to make a statement
or defend herself she is free to do so.
We do wish her well where ever her path has led her.

Nevyn

Asiaprod wrote:

Can you provide me with more info on being bound together beyond ones life time.

There is a provision if one believes in such things to tag or tie souls together
or interconnect them so that the will have a link in lives to come.
sounds great and wonderfull but really who can tell how life will turn out
and having made such a bond at marriage one would hope it can be undone
if it came to a messy divorce or seperation.

Asiaprod

Originally posted by Thaedydal
There is a provision if one believes in such things to tag or tie souls together
or interconnect them so that the will have a link in lives to come.

How interesting. In Buddhism we have a similar concept. Some of us believe in duality in life or nature in which there are no singularities. We also acknowledge the importance and power of the female entity. Since we believe in duality and reincarnation, we also hold that in many cases the partner we are with in this life remains our partner or close associate in future lives. Unfortunately there is no guarantee that our current partner in this life will play the same role in the next life. The person who is my wife in this life could turn out to be my husband, wife daughter or son in the next. It is somewhat random. It is pleasing to see that you can actually make a choice for you next life. Under your belief system, what kind of control do you have over future lives. The only control I have is some what control over the type of life it will be i.e. Happy, unhappy.