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[article] Resignations from IRA Army Council (apparently)

  • 23-07-2005 5:06pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88,972
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    Story goes that Messers Adams, McGuiness and Ferris have removed themselves from the Provos military wing in preparation for a statement by the PIRA next week. The story was on the Indo front page and also reported on Belfast Telegraph site.
    THREE senior Sinn Fein figures, including party president Gerry Adams, have stepped down from their posts on the IRA's ruling army council.

    The ground-breaking decision means that all links between the leadership of the political and military wings of the Provisional movement have been severed.

    And it paves the way for major changes in the Provisional structures to be announced in an IRA statement, now expected to be delivered in the second half of next week.

    It is believed that the internal IRA debate about its future, which has been going on for over three months, has now effectively ended and that the final details of the statement are being worked on.

    It was learned last night that Mr Adams, Sinn Fein's chief peace negotiator Martin McGuinness and Dail deputy and convicted gun-runner Martin Ferris have all resigned from the seven-man IRA army council.

    Their posts have been filled by two men from Belfast and one from Tyrone, all of whom are closely aligned to the Adams-McGuinness group pushing the movement onto a purely political path.

    The changes in personnel are also seen as part of the "sanitisation" process within Sinn Fein as the party prepares to present itself as a democratic body that is ready to play a full part in political developments north and south of the Border.

    None of the new appointees is a member of Sinn Fein but all are regarded within the Provisionals as militarists with proven records.

    One of them is a hunger striker from Belfast and he has been on the IRA's headquarters staff with responsibility for the "engineering" department.

    The second is also from Belfast and had criminal convictions in the past for possession of explosives, while the third is regarded as the IRA commander in the Tyrone region.

    The make-up of the rest of the army council remains unchanged and South Armagh hardliner Tom "Slab" Murphy continues as the organisation's chief of staff, a post he has held since an IRA executive meeting in Falcarragh, Co Donegal, in October 1997 - a summit which resulted in the resignation of Michael McKevitt and the subsequent formation of the dissident Real IRA.

    Mike.


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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,956 Villain
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    And your comment to go along with the Article would be???
    It was learned last night that

    How was it learned I wonder, I saw the Indo this morning but didn't bother spending my hard earned cash to read "blah blah.... according to intelligence reports...... we have learned blah blah"


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 82 hill16
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    I heard Conor Cruise O'Brien is the new Chief Of Staff. :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,003 rsynnott
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    These are the Messrs "Not associated with the IRA", eh?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,924 Cork
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    mike65 wrote:
    Story goes that Messers Adams, McGuiness and Ferris have removed themselves from the Provos military wing in preparation for a statement by the PIRA next week.

    Anything short of complete disbandment of the IRA should not be accepted by both governments.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,003 rsynnott
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    Cork wrote:
    Anything short of complete disbandment of the IRA should not be accepted by both governments.

    Of course not. Sadly, that will happen shortly after Satan goes into the cryogenic supplies business.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 398 Hydroquinone
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    And when do we think the Gardai will be arresting the three of them for membership of an illegal organisation, eh?

    Today? Tomorrow? The twelfth of never, yup, that'll be it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,608 sceptre
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    Some of you have been warned about the next-to-useless one-liners lately. Take this as a final pre-ban warning. You can discuss the implications and so on or step outside the board for a currently-unspecified period.

    Mike, as per usual rules, please add your own views.

    Personally, assuming the story to have some truth, I'd see it as a potentially interesting development along the lines to "nowt to do with us and this time we really mean it, matey". Not sure it looks like there's any change in direction or lack of direction and trench-digging.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 88,972 mike65
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    Ooh alright..I just put the article up as a notice really.

    The move, if it actually happened (after all many resist the idea that Adams etc are/were on the IRA Army Council) will hopefully presage a statement which will make it clear that the PIRA will cease all paramilitary and criminal activites. Naturally I'm sceptical but would like to be proven wrong.

    Mike.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,895 Sand
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    I dont think declarations are going to have the major impact Provos seem to think they will. Martin McGuinness was saying that P O Neills statement would have an immediate effect on the peace process.

    Now whilst I can see Blair being distracted and saying "Yes fine, thats great, woopee doo", and Ahern is desperately trying to join Adams club and will endorse practically anything they say, theyre not the immediate block on the proccess. The DUP and all other right thinking democrats in Northern Ireland are.

    The DUP has been busy saying they will only accept SFIRA as a negotiating partner after many *years* of verified good behaviour, and another condition I heard was that before the DUP would deal with Adams and Co is that Dublin and London would delist the IRA as a terrorist organisation, which just isnt going to happen because past all the bull****, Ahern and Blair both know that they are still terrorists. So I can see McGuinness being dissapointed if he thinks the DUP is going to come running to be lied to and betrayed like Trimble was.

    Seeing as SFIRA werent willing to give up their crinimal enterprises or allow verified destruction of their arsenal, its hard to see them providing any more than the same old tired ****e dressed up as something new. Even this move by Adams and Co to resign their seats on the Army Council (Id imagine certain posters dont know what to make of that!) seems a little hollow when theyre being replaced by men loyal to them and their strategy. Does a middle man suddenly mean Adams and Co wont have their men vote by proxy for them? Theyll have to go a lot, lot farther than re-arranging the deck chairs I think.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,924 Cork
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    I welcome any moves to see the end of the IRA. I feel that it should have happened immediately after the Good Friday Agreement. But that said, moves to fully embrace democratic principles and metods have to be welcomed.

    But I agree that Theyll have to be cast iron assurances about the ending of all IRA activity. I think any fudge on this will achieve nothing.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 656 supersheep
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    It seems like a step in the right direction. Then again, the number of times I've thought to myself "Oh yay! Looks like it's going to end!" and then been crushed... I'm starting to think that the IRA don't want to disband and want to continue with their criminal activities... Surely not?
    DUP, right thinking democrats? First and only time I've heard them described like that... Admittedly, the only ones I really know are the Paisley's, but right thinking (or indeed democrat, where it applies to Catholics/Nationalists) are not words I would use to describe them.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,050 murphaph
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    The IRA/UVF/LVF/UDA are all a bunch of drug dealing, bank robbing, murdering scum. They are criminal gangs. They will not 'disband'. The only way anything will happen is if ALL politicians privately and publicly break all links with these gangs and condemn them as the criminals they are. Law and order must be upheld by the decent people in cooperation with the police, just like a normal society. People are too stupid to see what these gangs are doing to them and their areas.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 656 supersheep
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    murphaph wrote:
    The IRA/UVF/LVF/UDA are all a bunch of drug dealing, bank robbing, murdering scum. They are criminal gangs. They will not 'disband'. The only way anything will happen is if ALL politicians privately and publicly break all links with these gangs and condemn them as the criminals they are. Law and order must be upheld by the decent people in cooperation with the police, just like a normal society. People are too stupid to see what these gangs are doing to them and their areas.
    I agree. It may have been different ten years ago, I don't know as I was too young, when they had their 'cause' to fight for, but now... It's funny. The IRA usd to have its own little cover group to take out pushers, Direct Action Against Drugs, and now they ARE the pushers.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,003 rsynnott
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    supersheep wrote:
    The IRA usd to have its own little cover group to take out pushers, Direct Action Against Drugs, and now they ARE the pushers.

    Direct Action For Drugs? :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 343 tomMK1
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    sceptre wrote:

    Personally, assuming the story to have some truth, I'd see it as a potentially interesting development along the lines to "nowt to do with us and this time we really mean it, matey". Not sure it looks like there's any change in direction or lack of direction and trench-digging.

    I think the question has to be asked as in how does this info come about? If the three were indeed in the IRA and the indo knows all about it, why havent the gardai/psni arrested them?

    The point being made by one liners is that the Indo make a story and too many suckers believe it without asking how they ever got their information in the first place, consdiering if their info is true, then then authorities must know, and in that case why has no-one been arrested for membership of the army council.

    the answer is they dont know, and the indo is just selling newspapers and this country is full of people who love to believe what they read without actually thinking.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 343 tomMK1
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    besides, once the IRA do disband, there'll just be other reasons to keep nationalists out of politics. Will the GFA be implimented in fulll if the IRA disband? I doubt it. WIll there be calls for all ex IRA people to present themselves to the Gardai or PSNI - probably. Will demands be made for all arms to be hand delivered to the authories? Probably. Will those last two things be acceptable to nationalists? probably not.

    ANother point - its been mentioned the IRA deal drugs - can anyone find me any shred of evidence to support the idea that the provisional ira sell drugs? If not, then dont be saying it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 343 tomMK1
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    rsynnott wrote:
    Of course not. Sadly, that will happen shortly after Satan goes into the cryogenic supplies business.

    right now this country needs people to support the peace process by putting some belief into whats happening. when it does happen, it wont be because of opions like the one quoted.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,580 Victor
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    tomMK1 wrote:
    I think the question has to be asked as in how does this info come about? If the three were indeed in the IRA and the indo knows all about it, why havent the gardai/psni arrested them?
    On what charge would the PSNI arrest them? Seeing as IRA membership (alone) is no longer illegal in the North.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,050 murphaph
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    tomMK1 wrote:
    The point being made by one liners is that the Indo make a story and too many suckers believe it without asking how they ever got their information in the first place, consdiering if their info is true, then then authorities must know, and in that case why has no-one been arrested for membership of the army council.
    Because in a democratic society the police must have proof before they arrest and charge people for crimes. Knowing it is one thing-proving it is another. The aforementioned scumbag gangs don't deal in 'due process', they deal in drugs.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,003 rsynnott
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    Victor wrote:
    On what charge would the PSNI arrest them? Seeing as IRA membership (alone) is no longer illegal in the North.

    Really? Why on earth not?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,885 Stabshauptmann
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    murphaph wrote:
    The IRA ..... are drug dealers

    Sources for that info would be interesting since neither the gardaí nor the PSNI have accused the PIRA of being drug dealers as far as I can remember.

    I believe a certain person in my locality with links to republicanism to have links to drug dealing but Ive no proof nor evidently do the gardaí. Allegations of collusion and cooperation with drug dealers is actually the most Ive ever heard on the subject.

    Anyone actually have a link to any time the gardai or psni I have said otherwise/ care to set me straight?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 656 supersheep
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    I believe a certain person in my locality with links to republicanism to have links to drug dealing but Ive no proof nor evidently do the gardaí. Allegations of collusion and cooperation with drug dealers is actually the most Ive ever heard on the subject.
    Same here... I don't know where I got the impression the whole IRA were running drugs though... Probably the Independent...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,034 Rock Climber
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    supersheep wrote:
    Same here... I don't know where I got the impression the whole IRA were running drugs though... Probably the Independent...

    I'd say it's their friendship with the FARC drug barons that the more recent idea that the IRA are indifferent to Drug running gets its basis tbh.
    Colombia's guerrillas are using the drug profits to buy arms and munitions on the international market. In 2001, three Irishmen -- two convicted Irish Republican Army (I.R.A.) members and another, a member of Sinn Fein, the I.R.A.'s political arm -- were arrested in Bogota while trying to leave the country. It is suspected that they were in Colombia as representatives of the I.R.A. and were trying to arrange a deal in which F.A.R.C. would give the I.R.A. drugs in return for training in the ways of guerrilla warfare.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,956 Villain
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    Rock climber the biggest word in that quote of yours is "suspected" all anyone has here is opinions no one has every produced evidence that the IRA are dealing drugs or that Adams is on the IRA army council, all people have is a list of stories that anyone could make up, oh and that he lied 30 years ago.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,034 Rock Climber
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    I wasnt talking about Adams at all,I didn't mention him.

    I find it funny that you mention him though in response to my post about the IRA,when you go out of your way at every point possible to paint him as non IRA.

    I did mention though how these IRA guys were caught out hypocritically courting the worst type of Drug selling scum.
    Do you want to defend that aswell?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,003 rsynnott
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    Do you want to defend that aswell?

    I'm sure he will. After all, SFIRA can do no wrong. It's the most perfect political group in history, and anyone who believes otherwise DESERVES to be blown up/shot/kneecapped/whatever's currently in fashion...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,885 Stabshauptmann
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    Personally I believe Adams was on the army council.
    I also find it very easy to beieve that individuals connected with the IRA may be connected with drugs, but in the same was as the mafia tried to steer clear of drugs so to I believe is the IRA trying.

    Anyway the issue at hand:

    From what I can tell the IRA is trying to shore itself up > they ont want any leakages. To this end theres been a whole lot of double speak etc and efforts to keep everyone happy.

    There was a build up of militant support within the IRA since about xmas. There were a few changes in staff over the past few years
    The Belfast boys, despite it being Adams home turf arent overly enthusiastic about him

    Now this. I dont know what to make of this, whether its a PR stunt, a good thing or Adams trying to distance himself from something very bad in the near future. Id be interested to read this declaration when it comes.

    Anyway, speculation isnt a good thing when your a certified paranoid. Good night.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,885 Stabshauptmann
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    I wasnt talking about Adams at all,I didn't mention him.

    I find it funny that you mention him though in response to my post about the IRA,when you go out of your way at every point possible to paint him as non IRA.

    I did mention though how these IRA guys were caught out hypocritically courting the worst type of Drug selling scum.
    Do you want to defend that aswell?
    TBH, FARC are the lesser of two evils.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 656 supersheep
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    TBH, FARC are the lesser of two evils.
    Because they're in a foreign country? That's the only reason I can think of, because everything the IRA have done, FARC have done, and then some... Then again, FARC are closer to being the 'good guys' than the IRA, if only because the government in Colombia are b*stards. (Not condoning terrorism, just pointing out that the gap in evilness between FARC and the Colombian government is less wide than the gap between the IRA and the British or Irish government.)
    You seem to know your sh*t about the Provos though. I'd agree with almost everything you say (apart from the FARC being less evil bit.)


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,885 Stabshauptmann
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    No, If Id to pick a good guy out of the Columbian mess, Id pick FARC over the gorernment who murders it political rivals, massacres civilians, appauling human rights abuses, private armies, and heavy involvement with drugs. Not to mention the outrage my innner leftie feels about how they sell out to muti nationals.

    Then you take FARC. They have varing standards from part to part, some areas they tax drugs, some they stamp it out, some they may be involved in the trade. They support unions and pay pensions. They run "councils of the ppl" sic or something like that.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,003 rsynnott
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    I'd be surprised if a FARC-run Columbia was any better off than the current one; people are terribly corruptable, and no doubt a few large bribes would have it firmly back under the control of the multinationals...

    That said, yes, FARC at least does have a cause that makes some vague sense.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,264 Hobbes
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    sceptre wrote:
    Mike, as per usual rules, please add your own views.

    Thought if you used the [article] tag its ok.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 30 righthand


    irish1 wrote:
    Rock climber the biggest word in that quote of yours is "suspected" all anyone has here is opinions no one has every produced evidence that the IRA are dealing drugs or that Adams is on the IRA army council, all people have is a list of stories that anyone could make up, oh and that he lied 30 years ago.

    On Marian Finucane's last show a month ago, one of her guests was Fr. Alec Reid.
    Marian wrote:
    "In the early years he was known as the priest from Belfast. He was involved to what to the outsider, looked like cloak and dagger negotiations, that paved the way for people of very different beliefs could live side by side. Although he spent 40 years at Clonard Monastery in republican west Belfast, he says he has been all round the world and several other places beside. Fr. Alec Reed you are very welcome indeed to the program."
    Fr.Reid wrote:
    "Basically, now there are 2 organizations and Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness certainly for years are not members for years of the Army Council and I have meet the Army Council . I met them. And I know they are not even although they are accused of being. There is a definite, if you work in that there is a situation, you can see there is a clear distinction between SF and the IRA because SF would talk you me about what they were going to have to say to the IRA, how if you like, persuade them, who they were friendly with they knew the people who were if you like more flexible more willing....

    I've transcribed the show. As it was her last it is still up on RTE 'Marian Finucane Show'. Listen in for a whole lot more. She couldn't shut him up. He was involved before the 'troubles' began and was intimately involved throughout. I listen a lot to RTE and do not remember Fr.Reid being interviewed previously. By the way, it is as if it never happened as far as RTE News is concerned. Big scoop - buried! Wrong data. See how long it is until they take off the link.

    Now for a real rant. Who benefited out of this constant doubting of ADAMS? It certainly did nothing to aid the peace process. To me it seemed like some perverted game between the journalists to trip him up and score points. They hardly ever came out even. I'll keep the juicy bits for now.


    Teaser. Name the trade unions that conspired with the employer, to sack a good employee on trumped up charges of double jobbing, because her face did not fit with her 'green' image in an 'un-green' environment!!! Full points for the name of the employee.




  • Hobbes wrote:
    Thought if you used the [article] tag its ok.
    It's been practice that the board requires that you add your views when posting an article.
    The guidelines state that you must be willing to do so.
    The mods interpretation of this in every case that I've seen since that rule was put up has meant that any poster who puts up an article as a new thread must include their own comments on it-otherwise the thread is binned.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 343 tomMK1
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    murphaph wrote:
    Because in a democratic society the police must have proof before they arrest and charge people for crimes. Knowing it is one thing-proving it is another. The aforementioned scumbag gangs don't deal in 'due process', they deal in drugs.

    but how does anyone be of the 'knowing' of these things without any proof whatsoever? what your saying, correct me if Im wrong, is its OK to suppose someone is doing something and then publish it in a paper (?) and take that as fact. Personally , I like some proof to go with these things.

    Victor - are you sure of that? Plus, if they were members of the army council then they wouldnt just be charged with IRA membership, but with the all new 'directing terrorism' thing wouldnt they?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 132 Sherlock
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    How could they be charged with "directing terrorism" when the IRA have apparently got out of the terrorism business?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 656 supersheep
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    tomMK1 wrote:
    but how does anyone be of the 'knowing' of these things without any proof whatsoever? what your saying, correct me if Im wrong, is its OK to suppose someone is doing something and then publish it in a paper (?) and take that as fact. Personally , I like some proof to go with these things.
    Journalists have confidential sources, who will speak to them but not to the cops. I'm guessing the Indo or someone spoke to an IRA member who told them. Either that or someone in Intelligence... There is proof, but not the kind that will stand up in a court of law.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,500 Mercury_Tilt
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    This post has been deleted.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 382 AmenToThat
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    supersheep wrote:
    just pointing out that the gap in evilness between FARC and the Colombian government is less wide than the gap between the IRA and the British or Irish government.)

    In your opinion, it is my opinion that the British government is one of the biggest terrorist organizations on the planet and the fact that its democratically elected if anything makes the deeds committed under the name of 'Britian' over the centuries across the planet even more disgusting.

    IRA violence while shocking in nature was carried out in the name of uniting the island under one government and ending the influence and oppression of a foreign power. Much of the violence committed by Britain across the globe over the centuries was done in the name of the accumalation of wealth for the elite of British society and is now being continued by a Labour government with the only purpose of standing by a true superpower in the hope that some of the 'glory' and wealth will rub off and Britain can again feel good about herself as a genuine world power.
    That is the true gap between the deeds of the IRA and those of Her Majesty's Government.


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,830 oscarBravo
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    AmenToThat wrote:
    IRA violence while shocking in nature was carried out in the name of uniting the island under one government and ending the influence and oppression of a foreign power.
    Oh. Well, that's all right then.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,885 Stabshauptmann
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    Another thought crossed my mind:
    Adams and co try to deny that they're on the army coucil, they succed in this for years but latly ppl have become increasingly convinced that they are on said council.
    Its not good PR, so they quit.

    Rather cynical I know, but they might in fact, be quiting a position they never held because its the only way to convince ppl they dont

    Not my opinion, but Ive invested heavily in tinfoil ;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 398 Hydroquinone
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    Another thought crossed my mind:
    Adams and co try to deny that they're on the army coucil, they succed in this for years but latly ppl have become increasingly convinced that they are on said council.
    Its not good PR, so they quit.

    I like that. It makes sense to me. Seems to me that Adams is one of those figures who will go down in history as a person about whom very little is ever truly known, without dispute. Unfortunately there are people who would believe that the moon was made of green cheese and peopled by five headed moonpeople, if Gerry said it and there are people who believe Gerry Adams is the very personification of evil upon this earth and that he eats British babies in Protestant baby sauce for breakfast.

    When you have such divisive opinions, whatever the authorities do with this latest action it will not be believed by some and seen as an "I told you so" by others. I'm not really looking forward to seeing it we put him in prison for membership of an illegal organisation of if the UK arrests him as part of their new directing terrorism law. If not, well then, the terrorists have won, to quote a phrase you see on the American boards quite a lot. And if we do, or the UK does, then the prospect for serious unrest and a basklash of some proportion is pretty huge.

    As an exercise in forcing both governments' hands, it's a masterstroke. But will either have the brass neck to call his bluff? I wonder.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,882 Mighty_Mouse
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    I'm not really looking forward to seeing it we put him in prison for membership of an illegal organisation of if the UK arrests him as part of their new directing terrorism law.
    Am I right in thinking you believe the brits are going to Gerry Adams in prison under new anti-terrorism legalisation?

    Are you well at all?I could actually see the brits agreeing to delist the IRA as an active terrorist organisation or something as part of a new deal to get stormont up and running. Which is going in the opposite direction really.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 343 tomMK1
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    Sherlock wrote:
    How could they be charged with "directing terrorism" when the IRA have apparently got out of the terrorism business?

    the IRA is still an illegal organisation isnt it?

    the point im trying to make here is that IF adams and co are on the army council and IF such proof exists, then why arent they arrested? If its proof that wont stand up in a court of law then is it proof or hearsay?

    The answer is they arent being arrested because theres no proof in the first place to back up the claims - but by golly it keeps people reading warped newspapers such as the indo.

    Its amazing how some times proof is required, and other times (like the so called bank robbery and this army council lark) the fact there is no evidence is proof enough in itself. Kinda bit like a mob mentality.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 398 Hydroquinone
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    Am I right in thinking you believe the brits are going to Gerry Adams in prison under new anti-terrorism legalisation?

    Are you well at all?I could actually see the brits agreeing to delist the IRA as an active terrorist organisation or something as part of a new deal to get stormont up and running. Which is going in the opposite direction really.

    I'm very well, thanks. Hope you are too.

    If you read the whole of that post you will see that I was musing on the chances of either government doing anything whatsoever at all about it. But if you choose to pick one bit of it to suggest that I'm sick in the head, then there's not a whole lot I can do about that, now is there?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 656 supersheep
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    AmenToThat wrote:
    In your opinion, it is my opinion that the British government is one of the biggest terrorist organizations on the planet and the fact that its democratically elected if anything makes the deeds committed under the name of 'Britian' over the centuries across the planet even more disgusting.

    IRA violence while shocking in nature was carried out in the name of uniting the island under one government and ending the influence and oppression of a foreign power. Much of the violence committed by Britain across the globe over the centuries was done in the name of the accumalation of wealth for the elite of British society and is now being continued by a Labour government with the only purpose of standing by a true superpower in the hope that some of the 'glory' and wealth will rub off and Britain can again feel good about herself as a genuine world power.
    That is the true gap between the deeds of the IRA and those of Her Majesty's Government.
    You can't really say that the deeds committed by Britain five hundred years ago were the fault of the current government - or even of any government which approaches democratic by our standards.
    The British government has done less wrong in modern Northern Ireland than the Colombian government has done in modern Colombia. No death squads clearing favelas of street kids...
    @TomMK1 - Courts require a level of proof that newspapers don't - if newspapers required that level of evidence, news would come out maybe years after events occurred...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 343 tomMK1
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    supersheep wrote:
    You can't really say that the deeds committed by Britain five hundred years ago were the fault of the current government - or even of any government which approaches democratic by our standards.
    The British government has done less wrong in modern Northern Ireland than the Colombian government has done in modern Colombia. No death squads clearing favelas of street kids...


    i dont think you need go back hundreds of years to find deeds committed by britain in the north of ireland. no death squads? what about the SAS in the mid 80s - like those who tried murder to Bernadette Devlin (theres a dispute over if it were the SAS or the UDA - Devlin claims it was both) or the three fellas killed outside Omagh and then had weapons planted in their car in 1988?

    Not trying to troll, but thats what I mean - to see bad deeds by britain one only needs to go back a handful of years.
    @TomMK1 - Courts require a level of proof that newspapers don't - if newspapers required that level of evidence, news would come out maybe years after events occurred...

    Thats true - but thats because newpapers dont need to tell the truth - they just need to sell newspapers


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,882 Mighty_Mouse
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    When you have such divisive opinions, whatever the authorities do with this latest action it will not be believed by some and seen as an "I told you so" by others.
    I dont see why anyone has to anything about an Irish Independant newspaper article. Indo says they have. SF say the were never on it in first place.
    I'm not really looking forward to seeing it we put him in prison for membership of an illegal organisation of if the UK arrests him as part of their new directing terrorism law.
    Do you think this is even slightly possible?
    If not, well then, the terrorists have won, to quote a phrase you see on the American boards quite a lot
    But if this crazy act doesnt happen, the terrorists have won? :confused:
    . And if we do, or the UK does, then the prospect for serious unrest and a basklash of some proportion is pretty huge.
    ok now you've lost me a little! Are you saying it should be done or it shouldn't. Or merely talking about the reactions to an impossible situation?
    As an exercise in forcing both governments' hands, it's a masterstroke. But will either have the brass neck to call his bluff? I wonder.
    Now I'm officially lost. I have to ask..........what you talking about?

    Do you think it's possible the indo made it up or based it on dodgy sources and therefore Gerry will read it and smile, Berti will read it and smile, Tony will read it and smile, Ian will read it and put it in his file of reasons for not going into goverment with republicans?

    End of story


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 398 Hydroquinone
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    Or merely talking about the reactions to an impossible situation?

    Hallelujah! That's exactly what I'm merely talking about. Eggggzackleee.

    Musing, that's all it was; musings on a situation that no one here knows the truth about. And even if we did it would make feck all difference because we're only ordinary internet wafflers with no authority to do anything whatsoever about it.

    See here when I said this:
    whatever the authorities do with this latest action it will not be believed by some and seen as an "I told you so" by others.
    Option 1 - Govt. decide there's no case for him to answer. Result? Republicans say "Yah boo. Told you so". Anti-republicans don't believe it and are convinced there's a cover-up
    Option 2 - Govt. decide there is enough evidence to arrest him. Result? Anti- Republicans say "Yah boo. Told you so". Republicans don't believe it and are convinced there's a cover up.

    Does that make it any clearer for you?

    And to actually answer your question - do I think it's possible that the Indo is telling lies? Yup. I do. Do I think it's possible I think they're telling the truth? Yup, I do.
    Fortunately, I'm not Michael McDowell or Peter Hain and neither are you (or are you? If you are, what ther hell are you doing on here? Haven't you got a proper job? ;) ). So it's not up to me or you or anyone else on here what either government does about these claims. But I'll be interested to see what happens; if anything, in the months to come.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 656 supersheep
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    tomMK1 wrote:
    i dont think you need go back hundreds of years to find deeds committed by britain in the north of ireland. no death squads? what about the SAS in the mid 80s - like those who tried murder to Bernadette Devlin (theres a dispute over if it were the SAS or the UDA - Devlin claims it was both) or the three fellas killed outside Omagh and then had weapons planted in their car in 1988?
    Not trying to troll, but thats what I mean - to see bad deeds by britain one only needs to go back a handful of years.
    I know - don't think for a second that I'm supporting them. My mum was in Dublin the day of the Dublin/Monaghan bombings - and if British military intelligence weren't involved, I'll eat my hat. Hard to imagine the UVF pulling off such sophisticated bombs.
    Thing is, though, they are not the Colombian government. Admittedly, it seems to have cleared up its act somewhat in the past few years, but the right-wing militias that have slaughtered innocent children are still government sponsored. Imagine how much worse it would be if the British government said to the UVF, "Kill all the Catholics you want buddies, wipe that scum off the street", which is what seems to have happened there.


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