religion is bad

p~b

i was just thinking today about how if there was'nt any religions or just 1 global religion there would be no IRA bombings , 9/11 or any LONDON bombings.

so in conclusion religion causes more deaths and trouble than there would be if there was'nt any religions.

does anyone see where i'm coming from or am i the only one who thinks religions are stupid and create more trouble than good.

simu

Dude, the religion's incidental - it's all about resources and power.

NotMe

Religion's not bad.. people are bad. If it's not religion, it's nationality. If there were no nationalities it would be something else.

p~b

NotMe wrote:

Religion's not bad.. people are bad. If it's not religion, it's nationality. If there were no nationalities it would be something else.

just look at norther ireland and all the trouble and deaths and its all over religion.

simu

p~b wrote:

just look at norther ireland and all the trouble and deaths and its all over religion.

That's why you read so much about obscure Catholic doctrine in IRA statements, is it?

hawkmoon269

The IRA? Are you kidding?

Since the early 70s, most active IRA people were Marxist atheists. Religion had nothing to do with their motivation. Some may have been practising Catholics, but their religion was usually not a significant factor in their motivation.

p~b

but in northern ireland protestants are fighting catholics, so religion is too blame

simu

Twas sarcasm if that wasn't obvious.

hawkmoon269

p~b wrote:

but in northern ireland protestants are fighting catholics, so religion is too blame

No, that's not the case.

There may have been some terrorists, mainly on the loyalist side, who claimed that religion was a significant factor but to state that the conflict was about 'protestants fighting catholics' really isn't true, at least not in the context of the modern troubles.

hawkmoon269

simu wrote:

Twas sarcasm if that wasn't obvious.

I know, I was reacting to p-b's OP, not your post.

p~b

so the catholic children who had to pass through a protestant area to get to their school experience trouble because.............religion pure and simple it wasnt anything else

simu

p~b wrote:

so the catholic children who had to pass through a protestant area to get to their school experience trouble because.............religion pure and simple it wasnt anything else

So, where in the Bible/some other official source does it say Protestants have to abuse Catholics who walk through their neighbourhoods, then? Huh?

Your obtuseness wouldn't be deliberate by any chance now, would it?

jimbling

simu wrote:

Dude, the religion's incidental - it's all about resources and power.

religion is not incidental..... it is an extremely powerful weapon when in the wrong hands (which is almost anyone with power)........ its used to condone, its used to recruit, its used baffle, its used its used its used...

i believe religions to be bad anyway... but if they weren't there the wars would not stop...

people are not good natured.. we like to think we are, and perhaps there are some truly spiritual people who live the perfect lives, but the 7 sins are always there... in everyone... the spiritual people fight it... others don't.....

p~b wrote:

so the catholic children who had to pass through a protestant area to get to their school experience trouble because.............religion pure and simple it wasnt anything else

again... the religion is used... and if kids are thought to grow up to hate the other religions then this is unavoidable.... and is there parents fault.. not the religion

catholics and protestants dont fight everywhere they go... i grew up catholic and knew loads of protestants... no big deal... its the area, and the history that causes the problems now.....

p~b

your obviously not that bright if you cant see that the trouble in the north is related to religion, those children going to school where targeted because of their religion and nothing else

simu

jimbling wrote:

religion is not incidental..... it is an extremely powerful weapon when in the wrong hands (which is almost anyone with power)........ its used to condone, its used to recruit, its used baffle, its used its used its used...
..

It's possible to do the same with non-religious ideology...

simu

p~b wrote:

your obviously not that bright if you cant see that the trouble in the north is related to religion, those children going to school where targeted because of their religion and nothing else

Oh it's a factor but not the fundamental one.

Well, I'd better go off and kill myself now that I've been made to see how "unbright" I am. :-p

jimbling

simu wrote:

It's possible to do the same with non-religious ideology...

and I said that in my post......

my point was that religion is not incidental......


To be fair to p~b... although I disagree with his point on todays wars....(on the cause of the wars.. not the personal reasons of the people in the wars) go back in history and a vast number of deaths were caused directly as a result of religion....

jimbling

p~b wrote:

your obviously not that bright if you cant see that the trouble in the north is related to religion, those children going to school where targeted because of their religion and nothing else

yes but why do those protestants hate the catholics.... it is not due to the religion... its due to their culture and teaching....

i'm starting to think ur just a troll trying to rise people????

landser

p~b wrote:

your obviously not that bright if you cant see that the trouble in the north is related to religion, those children going to school where targeted because of their religion and nothing else

the religion is not the reason for the hatred, but religion is usually a good indicator of the believer's political tendency i.e. catholic = nationalist, protestant = unionist.

there is little animosity towards other communities because of their spritual beliefs but rather because of their political affiliations. the whole catholic -v- protestant paradigm is, however, an extremly emotive and easy sounbdbite for the media to use and for halfwits to accept

BTW, i'd check your spelling and grammar before accusing other posters of not being that bright!

NotMe

Religion is just an excuse not a reason for fighting. They're are plenty of protestants and catholics in England who don't fight with each other.

p~b

jimbling wrote:

yes but why do those protestants hate the catholics.... it is not due to the religion... its due to their culture and teaching....

you just summed it up in that line because there is no difference between protestants and catholics, you cant tell the difference between catholics and protestants when your walking down the road and they both believe in god.

so the whole dispute between them is stupid and its because of religion

p~b

landser wrote:

BTW, i'd check your spelling and grammar before accusing other posters of not being that bright!

whats wrong with my spelling and grammar

landser

p~b wrote:

whats wrong with my spelling and grammar

:rolleyes:

you're not your

were not where

can't not cant

jimbling

a come on... of all things dont start picking people up for not putting in the apostrophe.... this is a forum, and not event the literature forum...

but anyhow...

i was not agreeing with your statement p~b. You seem to think that when i say culture and teaching that I mean the teaching of the religion... but it has nothing* to do with the religion...

lets pretend all the catholics and protestants in the north were atheist.. or agnostic... do you think they would not be fighting?? they most certainly would.




*i realise that there is a relationship, but it is incidental... lol... simu.. did u hear that

Sapien

Oh really! Can none of you think of more fundamental reasons why "religion is bad"?

simu

jimbling wrote:

*i realise that there is a relationship, but it is incidental... lol... simu.. did u hear that

Yes, a voice reaches me from beyond the grave :-)

Also, my grave wisdom tells me that religion is neither good nor bad - it has been used by some to hurt other people, by others to help them. Amazing, huh?

Stabshauptmann

For the love of God is trolling not a bannable offence in this board??

your obviously not that bright if you cant see that the trouble in the north is related to religion, those children going to school where targeted because of their religion and nothing else

Anyway thats personal abuse (though I may be spending too much time on the politics board )

FYI the problem very simply A)Nationalists felt marginalised in a country where there was organised and systematic discrimination.
Loyalists were afraid of first becomming second class citizens in a united Ireland and now that Nationalists are getting preferential treatment in some sort of affermitive action.

The problem is that its generally easy to identify Nationalists and Unionists by their religion. Simplistic I know, but hope it helps

Stabshauptmann

Anyway, not sour grapes or anything, but is this really on topic in the Christianity forum

simu

No. I predict... movement.

Talliesin

Is he a troll, or just a moron? Some people are genuinely that stupid and out of touch.

landser

jimbling wrote:

a come on... of all things dont start picking people up for not putting in the apostrophe.... this is a forum, and not event the literature forum...

but anyhow...

I never do, but if you're going to call someone thick...

Myksyk

The 'troubles' are too complex in origin and maintenance to be easily attributed to any one factor. However, if one were pushed to pick one surely it would have to be 'nationalism' (that other great divider of people) rather than religion. People are fighting to protect their national identity (British or Irish). I suspect that if you are Catholic and willing to fight for Unionism, you'd be welcome into that camp. If on the other hand you were a republican nationalist but wanted to support the rights of protestants, I'm guessing they wouldn't give a toss.

Stabshauptmann

but in fairness to p~b, there are a few historical factors to the troubles that were influenced strongly by religion. Cromwell for example was a very pious man who believed very strongly in the inferiority of Catholicism. The claims by one religion or sect (not just within Christianity - I didnt start the thread here ) that they are right and the resulting religious intolerance has been the cause of many occurences of violence and repression through out the world. This extremeism is often accompanied by an over zealous or too literal interpretation of a religious text.
What Im saying is that the debate on whether religion is neccessarily a good or bad thing is a valid one, but p~b's op and his following points and logic contribute nothing to this debate and that NI at present wouldnt be a good example for the debate, though perhaps at the turn on the 20th century it may have/

Playboy

p~b wrote:

i was just thinking today about how if there was'nt any religions or just 1 global religion there would be no IRA bombings , 9/11 or any LONDON bombings.

so in conclusion religion causes more deaths and trouble than there would be if there was'nt any religions.

does anyone see where i'm coming from or am i the only one who thinks religions are stupid and create more trouble than good.

So are you telling us that if there was no religion then there wouldnt be any wars? Religion is just an excuse .. if it wasnt religion then it would be something else

SkepticOne

Religion appears to be something that spontaneously arises in all societies much like language as if it is built into our brains. If so, it is pointless to talk about it being good or bad but rather we should seek to accept and understand it.

Sapien

SkepticOne wrote:

Religion appears to be something that spontaneously arises in all societies much like language as if it is built into our brains. If so, it is pointless to talk about it being good or bad but rather we should seek to accept and understand it.

Or overcome it.

Flukey

Religion is not the problem in Northern Ireland. If everyone actually followed their religions, be it Catholic or Protestant or others, there would be no violence, and that is the case of all situations where religion is used as an excuse. It is where people don't follow their religions that the problems start. The problems lie with people. It is about power and influence and many things, but not religion. It is very complex. Anyway, you can date the problems in Northern Ireland as far back as 1169, at which time there was no Protestantism. Many of those at the frontline of the problems wouldn't know what the inside of a church looks like.

If you believe Northern Ireland's problems are about religion, then you better go and study some Irish history. Anyone that believes the problems around 9/11, Iraq, the current London situation etc. is about religion needs to do a bit of study of history and politics too. Protestants and Catholics may have different beliefs and Christians and Muslims may have different beliefs, but if they all follow their core beliefs, which are fundamentally the same, they'd all live in peace. The problems come from those that don't follow their religions and twist certain things in the religous texts to justify their actions. Many can selectively quote from the Bible or Koran or put their own slant on things, but none of them are really following what their religions teach.

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

MDTyKe

Hey,

I do agree Religion is associated with many world problems, but we can't directly tie, or blame the faiths and/or religions on that. Christianity is a religion of love, not of hatred as is displayed across NI and many other areas of the world. It isn't the religion that is the problem - it is the extremists in it, and unfortunately, that religion or faith gets blamed on it, ie: Protestants and Catholics.

Religion used to be more of an issue in NI, but barely exists anymore. Nationalists are branded Catholics, and Unionists are branded Protestants, even though there is inter-twining within those two groups. If I see people out shouting in the streets, at kids walking along a road, and then turn around and call themselves a Protestant, I would think they are a total disgrace to their religion, and obviously know nothing about it. Protestantism, like Catholicism isn't about hatred, it's about the opposite.

What we're seeing, is the result of Satan's work on people within the religions, to make them corrupt, and it is having, obviously from the recent comments here, that successful attempt at affecting 'religion' and the Christian faith as a whole. Maybe don't look to the "Christians" if you want to discuss religion, but look at the source - you will find your arguments quickly dissapear. Find Jesus, and Christianity for yourself; and you'll see it's a very different thing than is being portrayed.

God Bless you

Matt

caminoperegrino

This cannot be a serious arguement, Me thinks there are leg pullers here......

Flukey

Ziggy wrote:

Interesting that nobody has addressed the OP's original post where 9/11 & the London bombings are mentioned.

Was religion not a major factor there?

I did so in the post immediately before yours. All those things are about power and politics etc, but little or nothing to do with religion. The foreign policies being pursued by western powers in the Middle East for decades now is the source for those events. You'll find plenty on that in the Politics forum. For here and the religion perspective, any Muslim or Christian who carries out the acts of violence certainly is not following their own religion. They may well use it as an excuse of justification for their actions, but they are in error in doing so and going against the teachings of their religion to love one another.

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

neuro-praxis

Ok, ok. So a Catholic, a born again Christian, a Jew, a Hindu and a Muslim walk into a bar. The Hindu and the Muslim have spring water and the others drink Guinness. The born again Christian gets really drunk and vomits on the way home. She blames it on the chicken in her kebab.

Great night though.

LovelyHurling

[HTMLyes but why do those protestants hate the catholics.... it is not due to the religion... its due to their culture and teaching....
[/HTML]

Im a member of the Church of Ireland and I feel that is a completely stupid statement to make. Hatred swings both ways. Protestants who hate Catholics hate them because of what some Catholics are taught. Catholics who hate Protestants hate them because of what some Protestants are taught.

And while we're on the subject of religious discrimination, I can tell you which way it swings here in the South...

U$ername

p~b wrote:

i was just thinking today about how if there was'nt any religions or just 1 global religion there would be no IRA bombings , 9/11 or any LONDON bombings.

so in conclusion religion causes more deaths and trouble than there would be if there was'nt any religions.

does anyone see where i'm coming from or am i the only one who thinks religions are stupid and create more trouble than good.

If there was no religion then what happens when you die.......you die, thats it no 72 virgins waiting to cater for your every need, no eternal palace of happiness....

So Im just gone when I die...then it really doesnt matter if I go around stealing, killing people or anything else cos I will just be gone anyway...

Unfortunately things arent that simple... religion was created due to a need for guidelines for people in order to prevent such chaos...whatever religion it is the basic theory is be nice to your neighbours and stuff which doesnt do any harm.

The harm is caused when someone says "My religion is better than your religion, Who would win in a fight? My twelve armed elephant of justice or your wimpy bearded guy who has his followers eat him all the time.."

Such things may be an exageration but many lives were lost along similar lines. We need religion to keep decorum...no other reason..man isnt built to contemplate the absence of an afterlife thats just scary...

Excelsior

You sir, are a philosopher for the ages. Best not think about anything scary.

U$ername

Find the happy place.

pbsuxok1znja4r

Well, say what you like about the Muslim/Islamic religions, I don't know enough about them, but I can tell you for certain that no Christian religion is to blame. Christianity does NOT condone the kind of violence seen in A) Northern Ireland, London, C) New York. Therefore "religion" in general, is not to blame. Now I'm not saying that some other religion may or may not be the fundamental cause, but, please don't make such a generalisation as saying ALL of religion is to blame for these acts of violence and murder.
In future, threadstarter, please be specific about which religion you think is to blame.

iceworm

the trouble in the north is to do with religion . when england took over ireland they killed catolics for being catholics . when they had the plantations in ulster they took irish land and gave it to presbyterians who in turn were victim to sectarian assault . which is how it started . plus what was that killed six million jews?was it not because they were jews. and hitler was insane . what started the crusades ? muslims taking over jerusalem which was there holy city as well and the high and mighty british had to go and rescue it.so there. according to catholics wont anybody who doesnt believe in jesus goes to hell? well thats great no . im an atheist so i dont care and i know better but so long hindus and jews and muslims . ah well they think the same as well. so everybody is f*****.

Nightwish

i personally do not believe in religion. It has corrupted mankind throughout the ages. Every religion is responsible. I know having a belief in a higher power or God, gives people hope in their lives, but religious beliefs can be interpreted by others by giving them a licence to commit mass murder.

Dades

Nightwish wrote:

i personally do not believe in religion. It has corrupted mankind throughout the ages. Every religion is responsible. I know having a belief in a higher power or God, gives people hope in their lives, but religious beliefs can be interpreted by others by giving them a licence to commit mass murder.

Much as I'm tempted (!) to agree, I think other excuses than religion would have been found to quench the thirst for blood over the ages.

Yes, certain heinous crimes might never have happened, but wars, genocide and intolerance are all part of the dark side of human nature and will surface regardless of "necessity".