Why won't Ryanair Cross the Atlantic ?

netwhizkid

I wish they would if they operated from Shannon, Cork and Dublin they could make a small fortune, I am just after checking €800 return to NYC in two weeks time, i am fuming i got the same tickets last year for €500 in march, I wish Mick leary would come on and blow the cosy Continetal/Aer lingus monopoly out of it. Like i know he is hardly a moral leader, but i'd fly ryanair to the US if they'd fly there, i'm sick of Europe and Ireland i'd rather fly to America any day but now unfortunatly like for many people it is going out of our reach again with high-airfares and a rising dollar. What do you think ?

eclectichoney

air space regulation perhaps ?

netwhizkid

Originally posted by eclectichoney
air space regulation perhaps ?

I don't care what it is, i'm sick of the tranatlantic rip-off, and it's about time Ryanair to their sights of Europe and concentrated on the New York run

Dinner

They'd have to buy planes that could fly that distance and that costs money.

But yeah they should invest and do it. Though, ryanair seat quality and entertainment stuff would make for a boring and uncomfortable flight.

netwhizkid

Originally posted by Arabel
Though, ryanair seat quality and entertainment stuff would make for a boring and uncomfortable flight.

Who'd give a toss once it'd be cheap and the airhostess would be easy on the eye and the in-flight food would be edible !

Belfunk

its your own fault for leaving it so late to book. I got return flights to New York for €480 (aug 10th flying out) booked in May. I think thats a great deal BA were trying to charge over €800 for the samer flight

Sarsfield

netwhizkid wrote:

...in two weeks time...

What makes you think Ryanair would be different with a 2-week advance booking? You do know how they make their money don't you? I've flown Ryanair on a €200 (roughly) return to Bristol, travelling at short notice! Aer Lingus (and others) actually offer excellent trans-Atlantic fares.

To add another reason, it's aircraft (and crew) utilisation. You can't do a 25 minute trans-Atlantic turnaround. Flight crew need to be changed. 5 or 6 short round trips gives a better return than 1 long-haul return.

caldwelk

A guy walks into a bar at the airport and he sees a gorgeous airhostess sitting at the bar. He's feeling cocky so he walks up to the bar beside her. He doesn't recognise her uniform so he starts to hum the theme tune of the British airways ad.
He gets no response so he them starts to hum the tune for Quantas airlines.

Still no response, so he then starts to whistle the tune for American airlines.

At this point, the airhostess turns round and tells the guy to f**k off and leave her alone.

"Ah Ryanair" he says.

netwhizkid

I agree, i should have booked sooner but i could not do that because of possible disruptions, i was thinking of booking in june and it still came to €650 i would Like ryanair to do a Airbus A380 to NYC with the 800 all economy seats and start at dublin and take on more in shannon, this nonsense by boeing that people want direct flights non-stop is rubbish i'd rather go hub to hub and save money.

zAbbo

Why should they suit you? because you left it late to book your flights, in case you didnt notice all nyc flights went up by around 150 return a few weeks back.

Whiner

netwhizkid

Originally Posted by bazH
Whiner

Lets not argue, as i state I know i was wrong to leave it so late, but if ryanair joined the New York run it'd save consumers money. I know friend that booked two month in advance last year with continental to come to ireland and it cost them $4000 for 3 adults and 2 kids Aerlingus were $5000 It is not as costly to fly from here to New York Afaik for some reason it must have something to do with, high-oil prices and the weak dollar. Basically my rant is Ryanair would revoulutionise Trans-Atlanic travel if only they'd do it.

Sarsfield

In your first post, you talk about the Aer Lingus/Continental monopoly. In your crazy A380 post, you say it's rubbish to suggest that people want to fly direct.

If you're not interested in flying direct then there is no monopoly. There are countless options.

I think you're just a spoilt whinger who wants everything for nothing and wants it on demand. :rolleyes:

How old are you btw? If you're under 15 I'll let you off Any older and you need a good dose of reality before you're let out on your own!

Jivin Turkey

netwhizkid wrote:

Basically my rant is Ryanair would revoulutionise Trans-Atlanic travel if only they'd do it.

They wouldnt. They work on a system that crews begin and end their shifts in their home airport. I dont think they would be able to operate this system trans-Atlantic due to constraints on the number of hours crew can work in a day (although Im open to correction on that). This would result in having to pay for hotels and expenses that they dont normally incur. Im a huge fan of Ryanair but I dont think trans-Atlantic is feasible for them at the moment.

In fairness to Aer Lingus they offer a good service at reasonable value. They also offer some great deals/rates.

netwhizkid

As for the staff they could hire american staff, as for my age what does this have to do with anything ? I was making a point that Ryanair should enter the Tran-atlantic run imo, As for the A380 post i was pointing out how to do things in the economy of scale. Whats the point in even posting here anymore everything i say is torn apart.

secret_squirrel

The fact that everything you say has been torn apart kinda suggests no-one else has much sympathy for you.

You left it too late to book and Ryanair would have ripped you off just as much as anyone else. So your wish is irrelevant.

Also the Dublin's runways are too short for the A380 and Shannon has neither the facilities or the passenger numbers.

Aer Lingus would also like to bin the Dublin-Shannon-US 2 stop routes because is murder on the Aircraft and Equipment and bloody inconvienient for the passengers.

Jivin Turkey

netwhizkid wrote:

As for the staff they could hire american staff

But the American staff will just face the same problem in Dublin.

Its not feasible to run an airline that operates on such a tight level of (in-cabin) service trans-Atlantic. If flown on some of Ryanairs fleet and to be honest an hour going to London or Liverpool on one of their seats is less than comfortable at times. I flew to Faro and it was very uncomfortable. I would hate to go TA with them.

And they would not put entertainment units on board. The only thing passengers could do would be get drunk, and then complain. Im sure the staff would love it.

segadreamcast

Sarsfield wrote:

In your first post, you talk about the Aer Lingus/Continental monopoly. In your crazy A380 post, you say it's rubbish to suggest that people want to fly direct.

If you're not interested in flying direct then there is no monopoly. There are countless options.

I think you're just a spoilt whinger who wants everything for nothing and wants it on demand. :rolleyes:

How old are you btw? If you're under 15 I'll let you off Any older and you need a good dose of reality before you're let out on your own!

To be honest, most of netwhizkid's political/economical posts seem to stink of something written by an under 15. I'd say he's under 18, at best.

"Why won't Ryanair do long-haul"? It strains the equipment, the crew, the passengers etc...with all the controversy over DVT etc, I can't imagine Ryanair-standards would be allowed on an Atlantic flight.

Thomond Pk

Then you wouldn't like www.airmadrid.com the ryanair of trans-atlantic travel well South Atlantic and Carribean travel that is. Food costs extra but a return from 500 euro to latin america is 200-300 euro cheaper than good airlines like KLM or Air France.

It is purely a regulatory hurdle, personally I would fly ryanair trans-atlantic if it was cheaper, I had a bus journey in May that lasted 20 hours and the only thing worse than the seats was the smell eminating from the toilet. Although for 800 kms of extremely mountainous terrain costing 16 euro I shouldn't really complain.

I just hope the US authorities do the right thing by Boeing and GE and keep the equipment suppliers in work and stop trying to protect an industry that is losing billions annually.

Lemming

First of all .... hopping from hub to hub actually costs MORE money.

Secondly, RA would not revolutionise anything Trans-Atlantic. You're forgetting that it would be a *very* uncomfortable flight due to their very stripped down service and outrageous food and drink charges.

Thirdly, RA would not enter the market because
a) incurring costs by purchasing new planes
b) incurring heavier costs for trans-atlantic maintenance services
c) incurring staff accommodation charges
d) incurring initial charges to set up flights to US destinations and having to jump through hoops with US airline officials.

Fourthly, stop trying to book your tickets 2 weeks in advance and then bitching because you get charged a higher price.

Thomond Pk

Lemming wrote:

Secondly, RA would not revolutionise anything Trans-Atlantic. You're forgetting that it would be a *very* uncomfortable flight due to their very stripped down service and outrageous food and drink charges.

There is nothing to stop you bringing food onto the plane or simply noteating any, bear in mind that Boston and New York are only 6 hours from Dublin which Aer Lingus can charge quite typically 928.81 euro return for, Turkey is a 4 1/2 - 5 hour flight and yet people fly with airlines they have never heard of.

All economy class medium & long haul flights are uncomfortable with American Airlines being particularly uncomfortable.

Lemming wrote:

Thirdly, RA would not enter the market because
a) incurring costs by purchasing new planes

O'Leary is good at doing deals and there are a lot of surplus 757s & 767s on the market at present.

Lemming wrote:

b) incurring heavier costs for trans-atlantic maintenance services

Possibly but I'm sure that all airlines face similar costs and that multiple short-haul flights are much more degrading than two or medium haul flights per day.

Lemming wrote:

c) incurring staff accommodation charges

This could be reduced by combining staff rotas between long and short haul flights, most European airlines are hiring non-european nationals these days.

Lemming wrote:

d) incurring initial charges to set up flights to US destinations and having to jump through hoops with US airline officials.

David Bonderman do a web search on him

Lemming wrote:

Fourthly, stop trying to book your tickets 2 weeks in advance and then bitching because you get charged a higher price.

Many people find themselves having to travel at short notice for family reasons and National airlines have tradionally had no compasion for these people.

Sarsfield

Thomond Pk wrote:

Many people find themselves having to travel at short notice for family reasons and National airlines have tradionally had no compasion for these people.

And Ryanair have?

Thomond Pk

Ryanair have never charged 933.81 euro for any return flight, I forgot to include the 5 euro booking fee the last time.

The chances are that Ryanair would for a demand flight still be significantly cheaper than Aer Lingus who also charge for coffee these days.

Jivin Turkey

Thomond Pk wrote:

There is nothing to stop you bringing food onto the plane or simply noteating any, bear in mind that Boston and New York are only 6 hours from Dublin which Aer Lingus can charge quite typically 928.81 euro return for, Turkey is a 4 1/2 - 5 hour flight and yet people fly with airlines they have never heard of.

Typically charge >900 euro? I just looked up getting a flight tomorrow and its only 855 euro.

Link

Thomond Pk wrote:

All economy class medium & long haul flights are uncomfortable with American Airlines being particularly uncomfortable.

There is uncomfortable and unbearable. I fear some of Ryanairs fleet would fall into the latter flying long haul.

Thomond Pk wrote:

O'Leary is good at doing deals and there are a lot of surplus 757s & 767s on the market at present.

So you suggest picking up some second hand planes to do the job? Incurring more maintenance costs due to their age, and hardly providing all the luxuries of comfort.

Thomond Pk wrote:

This could be reduced by combining staff rotas between long and short haul flights, most European airlines are hiring non-european nationals these days.

I dont understand how this would result in Ryanair not having to pay accomodation costs, which is against current company policy.

Thomond Pk wrote:

Many people find themselves having to travel at short notice for family reasons and National airlines have tradionally had no compasion for these people.

As has been pointed out MOL would hardly be at the departure gate trying to accomodate you.

Passengers get edgy and irritable enough on long-haul flights anyway. Without the entertainment that AL provide on a hypothetical Ryanair flight there would be nothing to do, apart from getting drunk or read a book for a solid six hours.

Thomond Pk

Jivin Turkey wrote:

Typically charge >900 euro? I just looked up getting a flight tomorrow and its only 855 euro.

Link

I chose different dates and that was the price I got; regardless of the small difference as I wouldn't be able to usel 12 hours flying and only 855 euro in the same sentence unless you were talking first or business class.

There is uncomfortable and unbearable. I fear some of Ryanairs fleet would fall into the latter flying long haul.

Ryanair are rolling out more new planes than any other airline that I know of and Boeing faced with the fact that their customers are not able to purchase new planes because their customers can't dispose of their existing old stock would be extremely accomodating on price.

So you suggest picking up some second hand planes to do the job? Incurring more maintenance costs due to their age, and hardly providing all the luxuries of comfort.

Read above or fly Ryanair

I dont understand how this would result in Ryanair not having to pay accomodation costs, which is against current company policy.

They wouldn't need to if an American air hostess flew New York and then rostered onto the same european destination from Dublin that hostess would be able to rent at a much cheaper location. Returning wouldn't be a problem as they would presumably have accomodation at home. There is also the apart-hotel option that most National Carriers use these days.

Passengers get edgy and irritable enough on long-haul flights anyway. Without the entertainment that AL provide on a hypothetical Ryanair flight there would be nothing to do, apart from getting drunk or read a book for a solid six hours.

Weren't ryanair the first airline to offer pay per view cinema screens?

Sarsfield

Thomond Pk wrote:

The chances are that Ryanair would for a demand flight still be significantly cheaper than Aer Lingus who also charge for coffee these days.

The chances are you'd be wrong a lot of the time! One of the ways Ryanair makes money is by selling seats to people who think Ryanair is always cheaper and never look anywhere else for better value. Big mistake on the passengers part.

BuffyBot

The whole point is academic. O'Leary would rather cut his own head off then start flying across the atlantic.

Thomond Pk

Re: Not shopping around you are probably right

Re: O'Leary not wanting to fly medium haul, it is academic as you say but as www.airmadrid.com has proven that where a market exists people will enter it and that the US aviation policy is like many of their protectionist policies actually costing them jobs as the scale of market exclusion is greater than what it sucessfully protects. Air Madrid have very high loadings typically 90% plus, the model works whether Ryanair want in we will not know until the regulations are changed.

Jivin Turkey

Thomond Pk wrote:

I chose different dates and that was the price I got; regardless of the small difference as I wouldn't be able to usel 12 hours flying and only 855 euro in the same sentence unless you were talking first or business class.

But 938 is far from a typical cost of an NY flight. Its the cost of an NY flight flying Sat-Sat at the height of the Summer at short notice. As has been demonstrated here people have got flights to NY for less than 480 on many occassions.

Thomond Pk wrote:

Ryanair are rolling out more new planes than any other airline that I know of and Boeing faced with the fact that their customers are not able to purchase new planes because their customers can't dispose of their existing old stock would be extremely accomodating on price.

They are rolling out so many new planes because in light of 9/11 they speculated entering into future contracts with Boeing for the purchase of planes on the basis that 9/11 would not affect their short-haul niche. It might in fact be advantagous for it.

Thomond Pk wrote:

Read above or fly Ryanair

I do fly Ryanair, only five days ago.

Your "above" comment indicated they picked up planes that were surplus to others (i.e. not new). They dont have contracts to purchase these planes at present with Boeing for the prices that they are getting the 800s for.

Thomond Pk wrote:

They wouldn't need to if an American air hostess flew New York and then rostered onto the same european destination from Dublin that hostess would be able to rent at a much cheaper location. Returning wouldn't be a problem as they would presumably have accomodation at home. There is also the apart-hotel option that most National Carriers use these days.

But they would still incur employee accomodation/overnight expenses which is against company policy and one of the most fundamental aspects to their low cost operation.

Thomond Pk wrote:

Weren't ryanair the first airline to offer pay per view cinema screens?

I dont know. I dont think however that it would be such a hit with customers.

But as has been pointed out MOL does not want to enter into the medium/long haul market. If he did they would be there. He doesnt because its not feasible.

OSiriS

There are many reasons why ryanair are able to offer such cheap flights, and most suggestions being offered in this thread would result in their prices being raised substantially across the board. Management of an airline of any nature is extremely complex so I wouldn't advise thinking about it.

Thomond Pk

Out of all the above I draw three conclusions:

Firstly ryanair and boeing have a very good commercial relationship and if they wanted ryanairs extremely strong covenant would get them a superior deal.

Secondly for 480 on Air Madrid you can fly to Santiago de Chile return, or a good number of closer desinations so there is obviously supply-side argument based on inefficiencies in the supply chain for a low fare arrangement on EU-US/Canada air travel.

Thirdly pointing out that accomodation is a complete block to something like this is not realistic, someone will find a way around this. Possibly it will not be MoL but someone will drive transatlantic fares down once the US administration takes its head out of the sand on this issue and realises that it will in fact deliver higher net benefits through increased equipment provision and tourism than it will lose through a few of their chapter 11 ridden airlines amalgamating and or rationalising to a realistic level.

1huge1

forget america, europe is were i want to be

Borzoi

netwhizkid wrote:

I agree, i should have booked sooner but i could not do that because of possible disruptions, i was thinking of booking in june and it still came to €650 i would Like ryanair to do a Airbus A380 to NYC with the 800 all economy seats and start at dublin and take on more in shannon, this nonsense by boeing that people want direct flights non-stop is rubbish i'd rather go hub to hub and save money.

Then they have to train pilots specifically for the A380, then they have to train up their maintenance crews for the A380. One of the reasons RA have a low cost base is that they have standardised planes as far as possible. Throwing in one A380 would be massively expensive because of the extra skills that it alone requires - not to mention that it requires a hanger bigger than anything else.

I prefer direct flights to convenient airports - and regularly pay a lttle more for them.

And then there would be the discomfort of RA, the crappy attitude, the €5 for a sandwich, probably increasing in price as the the passengers got more hungry

Thomond Pk

www.airmadrid.com

the jew

Some of you guys seem to be giving out to the OP, it's pretty simple what he's saying, if more airlines did the transatlantic route from Ireland, cost of tickets would go down, simple economics. Whatever about the exact details, I don't know anything about that, but the idea is more competition = cheaper prices for consumer, hardly rocket science.

Sarsfield

I believe there are 4 airlines doing TA from Dublin at the moment (EI, DL, CO & AA). Sounds like competition to me.

Any trans-Atlantic business model will be radically different to the Ryanair short-haul business model, even if it appears to deliver the same product from a passenger point of view. I think the objection to a number of posts here is the constant reference to Ryanair as the potential revolutionary on trans-Atlantic routes. The truth is Ryanair is successful because it concentrates absolutely on its core product, the one it knows and the one it does well - short-haul.

As for Air Madrid, I'm sure its possible. But costs north of Spain & Mexico are going to be higher. Also, the airline business is vicious. Anyone trying real budget travel across the Atlantic can expect an all out assauls from the incumbents followed by a return to the status quo. Remember Laker? BA dirty tricks against Virgin?

It's not as simple as some seem to think.

BuffyBot

Also, the airline business is vicious. Anyone trying real budget travel across the Atlantic can expect an all out assauls from the incumbents followed by a return to the status quo. Remember Laker? BA dirty tricks against Virgin?

To be fair, in the light of the Laker Skytrain debacle and BA/Virgin, it would be very tough for the big airlines to try the same tactics to force a new entrant out of business.

the jew

Sarsfield wrote:

I believe there are 4 airlines doing TA from Dublin at the moment (EI, DL, CO & AA). Sounds like competition to me.

Well it's good that you're hearing what you want to hear, i said more competition = lower prices to consumer.

sarsfield wrote:

It's not as simple as some seem to think.

i said the idea was simple, which it is, why are you having a problem grasping the concept?

I think the OP was more thinking, along the lines of, if more airlines ran transatlantic flights, costs would come down, which is a fact more than an opinion, i would imagine they used ryanair as an example, just because they don't know that many airlines/ryanair famous for cheap prices, etc.

Again i don't know the details of how they would setup for transatlantic flights, but it is obviously possible, since other companies are doing it.

Sarsfield

BuffyBot wrote:

To be fair, in the light of the Laker Skytrain debacle and BA/Virgin, it would be very tough for the big airlines to try the same tactics to force a new entrant out of business.

Agreed. They'd have to use new dirty tricks next time

the jew wrote:

i said the idea was simple, which it is, why are you having a problem grasping the concept?

I don't believe I've argued against your view that competition would lower fares. I said that setting up against the competition is difficult. In other words the idea is simple, but your argument is simplistic. If it was that simple in practice it would be happening.

the jew

Sarsfield wrote:

I don't believe I've argued against your view that competition would lower fares. I said that setting up against the competition is difficult. In other words the idea is simple, but your argument is simplistic. If it was that simple in practice it would be happening.

"I believe there are 4 airlines doing TA from Dublin at the moment (EI, DL, CO & AA). Sounds like competition to me." - this implies that you have interpretted from my posts that i said there is no competition when i didn't. you probably didn't say that directly to give yourself a scope for something like your above quote.

Jivin Turkey

Thomond Pk wrote:

Firstly ryanair and boeing have a very good commercial relationship and if they wanted ryanairs extremely strong covenant would get them a superior deal.

The reason RA are getting so many new planes is because of contracts entered into years ago to acquire them when the market was in a downward spiral. If they wanted new larger planes they would be paying close to market price (or whatever rate they have with Boeing) as the market is recovering and Boeing dont need to flog jets off anymore. There would be nothing "superior" about it.`

Thomond Pk wrote:

Secondly for 480 on Air Madrid you can fly to Santiago de Chile return, or a good number of closer desinations so there is obviously supply-side argument based on inefficiencies in the supply chain for a low fare arrangement on EU-US/Canada air travel.

You can fly DUB-JFK for this price. Many posters have agreed. Competition is good at the moment on the route. Your notion that a "typical cost of flight to NY is e950" is idiotic at best and retarded at worst.

the jew wrote:

Well it's good that you're hearing what you want to hear, i said more competition = lower prices to consumer.

Congratulations, you obviously passed first year economics.

And on to second year, lower prices to consumers mean lower margins to suppliers, increased competition for consumers is increased competition for suppliers causing further erosion of margins.

No one is disputing that increased competition would result in lower prices, but Ryanair dont want to do this because its not feasible/beneficial for them, Michael O'Leary wont have to be hitting the valium just yet because transatlantic prices are too high for someone who books a couple of weeks in advance.

the jew wrote:

i said the idea was simple, which it is, why are you having a problem grasping the concept?

I think the OP was more thinking, along the lines of, if more airlines ran transatlantic flights, costs would come down, which is a fact more than an opinion, i would imagine they used ryanair as an example, just because they don't know that many airlines/ryanair famous for cheap prices, etc.

Again i don't know the details of how they would setup for transatlantic flights, but it is obviously possible, since other companies are doing it.

No one is having trouble grasping the concept, you are missing the point completely. Ryanair do not want to do TA, it doesnt make business sense for them at the moment. If it did they would be flying those routes. You think this idea has never been discussed by the RA board?

the jew

Jivin Turkey wrote:

Congratulations, you obviously passed first year economics.

Nice one, didn't even know i was doing economics.

Jivin Turkey wrote:

No one is disputing that increased competition would result in lower prices,

Well that's all i was saying, why are you replying to my post if you know that it doesn't need replying to?

Jivin Turkey

the jew wrote:

Nice one, didn't even know i was doing economics.

Youre not doing it anymore, because you passed it, do you not remember?

the jew wrote:

Well that's all i was saying, why are you replying to my post if you know that it doesn't need replying to?

Because no one disputed that more competition equals lower prices, but what the OP said was that RA could revolutionise the TA industry which is just not true and what we are arguing over.

Thomond Pk

Jivin Turkey wrote:

The reason RA are getting so many new planes is because of contracts entered into years ago to acquire them when the market was in a downward spiral. If they wanted new larger planes they would be paying close to market price (or whatever rate they have with Boeing) as the market is recovering and Boeing dont need to flog jets off anymore. There would be nothing "superior" about it.`

That is completely incorrect,

United Airlines just out of Chapter 11 bankrauptcy
Delta about to enter Chapter 11 bankrauptcy
US Airways in Chapter 11 bankrauptcy
Continental potential Chapter 11 bankrauptcy canidates
Air Canada equivelent of Chapter 11 bankrauptcy
American Airlines just about avoiding Chapter 11 bankrauptcy
North West 49% owned by KLM who were taken over by Air France

All of the above are cutting capacity dramatically, none of the above are purchasing medium/long-haul aircraft at anything like they were in the period of 1995-2000.

Deals are there to be done at the right price IF any entrant with the financial health of Ryanair wished to.

Jivin Turkey wrote:

You can fly DUB-JFK for this price. Many posters have agreed. Competition is good at the moment on the route. Your notion that a "typical cost of flight to NY is e950" is idiotic at best and retarded at worst.

Two points on this NY is six hours flight Time Buenas Aires is 12 hours or twice the distance so as a valid comparison NY would have to be no more than 290 euro and that is being generous to the efficiencies of Aer Lingus.


I am not saying that Ryanair are going to enter this market only O'Leary and Bonderman can make that call. What I am saying is that if the US civil aviation authorities drop their unfair restraints on trade someone will enter this market and I'd say that 300-600 will be the new range of fares vs 450-933.81 plus as is the current regime.

Jivin Turkey

Thomond Pk wrote:

That is completely incorrect

No Im afraid what I said is completely correct. If they wanted NEW planes from BOEING they would pay market price, or whatever deal they have in place. The current price they have on the 800s is as a result of contracts entered into years ago, and because these prices are so favourable today is the main reason that so many planes are being rolled out.

Thomond Pk wrote:

United Airlines just out of Chapter 11 bankrauptcy
Delta about to enter Chapter 11 bankrauptcy
US Airways in Chapter 11 bankrauptcy
Continental potential Chapter 11 bankrauptcy canidates
Air Canada equivelent of Chapter 11 bankrauptcy
American Airlines just about avoiding Chapter 11 bankrauptcy
North West 49% owned by KLM who were taken over by Air France

All of the above are cutting capacity dramatically, none of the above are purchasing medium/long-haul aircraft at anything like they were in the period of 1995-2000.

Deals are there to be done at the right price IF any entrant with the financial health of Ryanair wished to.

Ok, so they could purchase planes from these airlines, but they would not be new as I originally said.

These second hand planes would require more maintenance and have a shorter life as opposed to new planes, again not in line with RAs strategy of cost minimisation.

Thomond Pk wrote:

Two points on this NY is six hours flight Time Buenas Aires is 12 hours or twice the distance so as a valid comparison NY would have to be no more than 290 euro and that is being generous to the efficiencies of Aer Lingus.

Moronic comment.

Im just after purchasing a flight to Liverpool with Ryanair. 99c for approximately 45 minutes flying. By your logic I should be paying no more than e16 for a 12 hour flight to Buenos Aries.

NY is probably one of the most premium destinations in the world. Thousands go there every day for business, holidays, everything. They have 3 airports for gods sake and Im only talking about JFK here. To compare them to half the price of an Air Madrid flight to Beunos Aries is completely ridiculous.

Fact of the matter here is you claim that a "typical" flight to NY with AL is in excess of 900 euro. Yet I can book a flight tomorrow (at the peak of the Summer) for almost 100 euro less than that. Get your head out of your arse.

Thomond Pk wrote:

I am not saying that Ryanair are going to enter this market only O'Leary and Bonderman can make that call.

Or anybody with half a brain. RA will not even think about doing so for the considerable future.

Thomond Pk wrote:

What I am saying is that if the US civil aviation authorities drop their unfair restraints on trade someone will enter this market and I'd say that 300-600 will be the new range of fares vs 450-933.81 plus as is the current regime.

While I dont argue that a new player could come in upon relaxation of laws and regs, you claim again that typical fairs to NY are along the lines of 500-900 is wrong. They are already about 300-600.

If you would like to check yourself check 4 dates over the next year. I chose:

31 Aug-7 Sept: e608 (end of Summer season)
31 Oct-7 Nov: e545 (Thanksgiving/pre Christmas shopping)
31 Jan-7 Feb: e333 (cheap time of year)
31 Apr-7May: e385 (early Summer season)

Flights are as dear as you say when you book two weeks in advance. Now hold on a minute as I lift my jaw off the ground, it is after falling out from shock.

Thomond Pk

Jivin Turkey wrote:

No Im afraid what I said is completely correct. If they wanted NEW planes from BOEING they would pay market price, or whatever deal they have in place. The current price they have on the 800s is as a result of contracts entered into years ago, and because these prices are so favourable today is the main reason that so many planes are being rolled out.

There has been little demand for New Long-Haul & Medium Haul Planes from the existing customer base for 5 years, the price has not risen very much from the 2001 price levels. The short-haul plane market has risen because of airlines like Jet Blue, RyanAir, Easy Jet have made large orders but the flag carriers are not.

You are talking about two totally different markets and in the medium/long-haul sector the major customers are all on the rack, so cheap deals are there to be done with the right covenant.

Jivin Turkey wrote:

Ok, so they could purchase planes from these airlines, but they would not be new as I originally said.

These second hand planes would require more maintenance and have a shorter life as opposed to new planes, again not in line with RAs strategy of cost minimisation.

Read above you are the only person talking second hand here.

Jivin Turkey wrote:

Moronic comment.

Im just after purchasing a flight to Liverpool with Ryanair. 99c for approximately 45 minutes flying. By your logic I should be paying no more than e16 for a 12 hour flight to Buenos Aries.

The 99c fare is a special and ignores taxes and charges a multiple of the actual fare, the fares I have listed include all taxes and charges and are not a gimmick. It is entirely possible for a low fare airline to offer 250-300 euro without it being a promotional loss leader which is what you are describing.

Jivin Turkey wrote:

NY is probably one of the most premium destinations in the world. Thousands go there every day for business, holidays, everything. They have 3 airports for gods sake and Im only talking about JFK here. To compare them to half the price of an Air Madrid flight to Beunos Aries is completely ridiculous.

The fare quoted was actually to Boston and there is only one major International Airport there.

Jivin Turkey wrote:

Fact of the matter here is you claim that a "typical" flight to NY with AL is in excess of 900 euro. Yet I can book a flight tomorrow (at the peak of the Summer) for almost 100 euro less than that. Get your head out of your arse.

Those were the random dates selected and there were more expensive flights available.

Jivin Turkey wrote:

Or anybody with half a brain. RA will not even think about doing so for the considerable future.

I never said that Ryanair were going to do it and with the current regulatory framework no-one can but plenty of people would consider it seriously if the rules were to change.

Jivin Turkey wrote:

While I dont argue that a new player could come in upon relaxation of laws and regs, you claim again that typical fairs to NY are along the lines of 500-900 is wrong. They are already about 300-600.

If you would like to check yourself check 4 dates over the next year. I chose:

31 Aug-7 Sept: e608 (end of Summer season)
31 Oct-7 Nov: e545 (Thanksgiving/pre Christmas shopping)
31 Jan-7 Feb: e333 (cheap time of year)
31 Apr-7May: e385 (early Summer season)

Flights are as dear as you say when you book two weeks in advance. Now hold on a minute as I lift my jaw off the ground, it is after falling out from shock.

The end of summer is I'm sure on cherry-picked dates The 545 fare is not cheap for that time of year, the Jan/Feb time fares are the equivelent of the 99c fares you described earlier and I'm sure would be no more than 99 euro each way in a low fares environment.

There are only 30 days in April

Did you make up those figures?

Jivin Turkey

Thomond Pk wrote:

There has been little demand for New Long-Haul & Medium Haul Planes from the existing customer base for 5 years

Apart from AirMadrid of course (not to mention: see below)

Thomond Pk wrote:

the price has not risen very much from the 2001 price levels.

Any links?

The flight industry took a hit that some predicted it mightnt recover from at 9/11. I think its blatantly obvious that this is no longer the scenario, even for medium/long haul. Many of the American airlines may still be feeling the pinch, but there are still plenty of carriers flying med/long haul doing quite well.

If the medium/long haul market is in such a depression why would Airbus spend BILLIONS on developing the new A380?

Thomond Pk wrote:

The short-haul plane market has risen because of airlines like Jet Blue, RyanAir, Easy Jet have made large orders but the flag carriers are not.

Yes of course. Apart from British Airways who yesterday announced plans to purchase BILLIONS of dollars of LONG HAUL aircraft.

Thomond Pk wrote:

You are talking about two totally different markets and in the medium/long-haul sector the major customers are all on the rack, so cheap deals are there to be done with the right covenant.

Again thats why Airbus are spending so much developing a new product for all its customers that are "on the rack".

Thomond Pk wrote:

Read above you are the only person talking second hand here.

Then why post an exhaustive list of American airlines doing badly, there are far more Airlines in the world operating med/long haul than North American ones.

Thomond Pk wrote:

The 99c fare is a special and ignores taxes and charges a multiple of the actual fare, the fares I have listed include all taxes and charges and are not a gimmick. It is entirely possible for a low fare airline to offer 250-300 euro without it being a promotional loss leader which is what you are describing.

The 99c fare is the standard fare for the first few people who purchase the flight, based on experience from flying to Liverpool. With taxes and charges it only works out about e17 return.

Same way if you go Aer Lingus to NY and book one of the first seats on the plane you will only pay e109, and roughly e300 in total.

I tried to access the AirMadrid site to see all these magical prices but I couldnt get past the homepage. What do I have to do to get in so I can see for myself?

Thomond Pk wrote:

The fare quoted was actually to Boston and there is only one major International Airport there.

The 480 flight quoted (and that I was talking about was to NY)

Belfunk wrote:

I got return flights to New York for €480 (aug 10th flying out) booked in May.

Thomond Pk wrote:

Those were the random dates selected and there were more expensive flights available.

I find that hard to believe seeing as I can book flight tomorrow for almost 100 euro less. What dates were they (or can you conveniently not remember?) as Im sure they are still at least as expensive, and as for more expensive flights available? You weren't looking at Christmas eve by any chance?

Thomond Pk wrote:

I never said that Ryanair were going to do it and with the current regulatory framework no-one can but plenty of people would consider it seriously if the rules were to change.

But Ryanair wouldnt. This thread originally painted Ryanair as the saviours of TA flying. Its not going to happen.

Thomond Pk wrote:

The end of summer is I'm sure on cherry-picked dates The 545 fare is not cheap for that time of year, the Jan/Feb time fares are the equivelent of the 99c fares you described earlier and I'm sure would be no more than 99 euro each way in a low fares environment.

The 545 fare is cheap seeing as its in the run up to Thanksgiving, and also to the pre-Christmas shopping rush which is becoming more and more popular.

The other fares are cheap because hey Ive booked advance, they are not promotional fares, they are the standard first few booking fares on all flights at that time of year.

Thomond Pk wrote:

There are only 30 days in April

Did you make up those figures?

Marvellous to see you getting pedantic. I love seeing people thinking that pointing out typos is scoring points in an argument. Youre a fool.

Did I make up those figures? Go check for yourself. You might get that well required reality check that a "typical NY flight" is not in excess of the ridiculous e900 figure you quoted.

BuffyBot

If the medium/long haul market is in such a depression why would Airbus spend BILLIONS on developing the new A380?

Simple - because of economies of scale. Take for example, an airline flying 2 flights a day LHR - LAX. With an A380, that becomes one flight a day, which is cheaper for the airline. Which makes sense, even to those companies which are "depressed". Buy some A380s, sell off some of your older long-haul craft and then save money.

Jivin Turkey

BuffyBot wrote:

Simple - because of economies of scale. Take for example, an airline flying 2 flights a day LHR - LAX. With an A380, that becomes one flight a day, which is cheaper for the airline. Which makes sense, even to those companies which are "depressed". Buy some A380s, sell off some of your older long-haul craft and then save money.

But who buys all these second hand planes in such a depression?

penexpers

They would be usually leased out to smaller airlines, particularly those in Africa, I think.

Jivin Turkey

penexpers wrote:

They would be usually leased out to smaller airlines, particularly those in Africa, I think.

I know thats what invariably happens to most of the older planes of the major airlines.

My point is though, the development of the A380 isnt to replace the A330 etc.

Airbus arent building this superjet to make one of their other products obsolete. A380s will be used by a small number of airlines, who will also use some A330s. Many other airlines will still buy and use the A330s.

The development of the A380 is as a result in the upturn in fortunes for the airline industry (outside the US). Holiday makers from Western Europe are increasingly taking their breaks in the East, Asia and even Africa, and less and less so in the West. Airlines are facilitating this.

therecklessone

Michael O'Leary wrote:

The history of the airline business is littered with airlines that went bust because they were successful in one niche or one market then thought they could do world domination. We have no interest in going long haul or trans-Atlantic. You can’t do it with a 737 – we do intend to double in size in Europe in the next five years and that’s plenty enough for us to be getting on with.” Branching out into other businesses is not an option either. “I’m no Branson,” he says. “We’ve got to stick to what we know.

Source

Michael O'Leary wrote:

Any idiot can offer low prices today," and indeed, it seems that more and more airlines, old and new, are doing just that. "The trick is low costs.

Source

Multiple aircraft types + central US airports + no rapid turnaround = no Ryanair transatlantic.