Islam inherently against Judaism ?

stevenmu

I heard that there's a story in the Koran* whereby the Prophet is living beside a Jew. Every day the Jew comes out to taunt the Prophet for his beliefs. Then one day the Prophet notices that the Jew hasn't turned up so he goes out to investigate and see if the Jew is ill or in need of help.

Is it fair to say that there is nothing in Islam which compels Muslims to exterminate Jews as some would claim ?





* I keep seeing different ways of spelling this so I'm guessing that it's a result of it being translated from a different alphabet and all are equally ok ?

Dellgirl

Steve, Im not trying to hi jack your thread, but I was wondering about something when I came across your question.
Is it just muslims who are not suppossed to eat pork or is it the rest of us as well? Is there a specific request re the eating of pig or not in the big book.
I dont know the anw to your question. If you think this is a hijack Ill delete it straightaway.

solas

what happened to the Jew?

DadaKopf

Going on this story, not that I heard it before or know anything about Islam, suggests to me that the Muslim turned the other cheek, and when the Jew didn't turn up, the Muslim went to see if he'd been harmed. *Shrugs*

C Fodder

Islam is not inherantly against Judaism or Christanity. They are regarded as fellow believers in God(Allah) but various nuts have perverted the teachings of Islam in much the same way as Christanity and indeed Judaism have been perverted to fit political idealogies at a particular time. The current hatred of Judaism has a lot to do with the creation of the state of Isreal and very little to do with faiths.

Feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

stevenmu

solas wrote:

what happened to the Jew?

I've no idea, that's pretty much the extent of the story as I heard it.

Blingarella wrote:

Steve, Im not trying to hi jack your thread, but I was wondering about something when I came across your question.
Is it just muslims who are not suppossed to eat pork or is it the rest of us as well? Is there a specific request re the eating of pig or not in the big book.

I think I remember hearing something about not eating animals which wallow in their own filth, of which pigs are one. I think some types of shellfish and crustaceans are included too. As for it being just them or the rest of us as well, I think that like many religions, the idea is supposed to apply to us all but I'd guess it's kind of like the way dedicated vegatarians would want us all to be vegetarian but don't generally kick up much of a fuss over it.

stevenmu

C Fodder wrote:

The current hatred of Judaism has a lot to do with the creation of the state of Isreal and very little to do with faiths.

I realise that's a factor, I've also heard supporters of Israels 'policies' explain that they came about because of the Muslim desire the wipe the Jewish people out, and groups like Hamas have made such claims in the past. It could turn into a kind of chicken and egg situation but I suppose it's probably all down to "various nuts" on both sides perverting their teachings.

Talliesin

stevenmu wrote:

As for it being just them or the rest of us as well, I think that like many religions, the idea is supposed to apply to us all but I'd guess it's kind of like the way dedicated vegatarians would want us all to be vegetarian but don't generally kick up much of a fuss over it.

Well, many religions have one set of rules (or other ethical standard) that they say a good person would follow, and another that they do out of devotion, or as part of a covenant, with their deities.

I have no idea which Islamic dietary laws fall under though.

Suff

This will take some time so I'll make it short.

First of all it wasn't in the Quraan, it's a Hadeeth (word of mouth by the Prophet PBUH)

Islam does not call for harming the Jews or Christians in any shap or form.
(Read: The Holy Quraan)
There were some troubled times back in between the 6th-12th century.
That was mainly politics (Read: Jews in Islamic Countries in the Middle Ages by Moshe Gil, David Strassler)

The Arabic - Isreali conflict started when in 1892 when a jewish/swiss named Theodor Herzl came up with the idea of establishing a state for the jews in Palestine. called the zionist movment. (Read: The Clash of Fundamentalisms: Crusades, Jihads and Modernity by Tariq Ali , paperback 2003)

with some contacts within the british empire (back then!) they secured an offer by Genreal Belfor which is known in the arabic world as "Belfor promise's " to the jews to give them Palestine!!!!

at that time (1892) Palestine had the three heavenly religions living side by side peacfuly. there were no troubles until the zionist arrived.
(Read The Clash of Fundamentalisms: Crusades, Jihads and Modernity by Tariq Ali , paperback 2003)


I am a Muslim from Syria, the south part of my country is occupied by Isreal since 1973.

Personally I have no problems with Jewish people, but my problem is with the
zionists. they took the land that DOES NOT BELONG TO THEM BY FORCE.
when you try to argue with them they told the Torah and say "My Book Grants me the permision to take this land"!!!
I don;t call a zionist person a Jew. cos it's a political movment, as far as I know not many European/Middle Eastren Jews support it!

Due to this more than 7 million Palestinians have been deported from their homes/land/farms.

Isreal is a 21st Century Colony!!!!

One of the many claims used by the zionists that the arabs took their land from them!

FACT
The Islamic period of Belad Al Sham (the Sham region which is used to be known back then was made of Syria (known as Sham still), Lebanon, Palestine and Jordan) started in 661 AD.
many of the people living back then were Arab Christians with a minority of Jewes.

Most people converted into Islam, integrated into the Islamic sociaty in the case of Palestine, these people have lived there over 1400 years! they are the Palestinians.

Because of this Many Muslims hate Isreal. me being one of them!
But hatred towards Jews or Christians was never tolorated by Islam.

Salaam

solas

c fodder wrote:

Islam is not inherantly against Judaism or Christanity. They are regarded as fellow believers in God(Allah) but various nuts have perverted the teachings of Islam in much the same way as Christanity and indeed Judaism have been perverted to fit political idealogies at a particular time. The current hatred of Judaism has a lot to do with the creation of the state of Isreal and very little to do with faiths.

I would have to agree. I think in Ireland we have witnessed something quite similar between protestant and catholics (flags of political party's) which in theory is probably why we can relate in some ways with the mismanagment of media doctrination of current events. (and possibly serves to feed my desire to find resolution or common ground)

Suff

solas wrote:

what happened to the Jew?

As far as I can remember the story and don't qoute me here!

His son was ill, the prophet (PBUH) went to check on him after being told of the matter, the child was a believer of the Prophet (PBUH) but the father didn't.
The Prohpet wished the child well to recover.
Then child asked his father to believe in the Prophet (PBUH). the Prophet (PBUH) asked the Jew "Don't you recognise me from your torah?"
in which the child said to his father "Believe!"

I can't remember the ending but I'm sure it was sad!


[NOTE: the Torah (also the Bible in fact) is known to have fortold the arrival of the Prophet, but the Jews wern't happy to know that he was born from pegans and not from Jewish blood. if you need more exact ref to where to find it let me know.]

solas

[NOTE: the Torah (also the Bible in fact) is known to have fortold the arrival of the Prophet, but the Jews wern't happy to know that he was born from pegans and not from Jewish blood. if you need more exact ref to where to find it let me know.]

yea..can you reference please. Is the prophet reference foretold in the Torah the same one Christians claim? (Jesus)

stevenmu

So I guess the concensus is that it's really more about politics than religion, just like in NI as Solas mentioned. I thought that may be the case but it's good to hear it from someone who know Islam and the area.

Talliesin wrote:

Well, many religions have one set of rules (or other ethical standard) that they say a good person would follow, and another that they do out of devotion, or as part of a covenant, with their deities.

I have no idea which Islamic dietary laws fall under though.

Many religions would claim that they are 'right' and that everyone should follow that religion. If everyone is supposed to be a part of that religion then logically everyone should follow the same rules. As far as I know Islam is one of these religions, altough I think most Muslims would believe that through education people will ultimatly want to convert to Islam as opposed to extremists who believe force should be used. I think I heard somewhere that not very long ago you couldn't buy meat on a friday in accordance with Christian beliefs, just like today we can't buy alcohol on Good Friday or Christmas Day.

Suff

solas wrote:

yea..can you reference please. Is the prophet reference foretold in the Torah the same one Christians claim? (Jesus)

I will soon, I must be accurate in order to deliver the correct ref however all my Books are packed as I'm moving house, I'll try to dig up few things soon.

YES! Christ was foretold in the Torah, but the Jews didn't believe him.
they are still awaiting their messiah!!

the Prohpet was foretold in the Torah and the bible, a number of refernces to him, but the Jews say he's didn't appear yet as he'll come after the messiah.

while the christians believe it was Isaa (Jesus actual name in Aramic, which is the langaue he spoke)
the word Jesus is taken from the word Yasso'h. which is a word to describe him as the awaited-holy messiah.

however you might need to get an older bible (70's) to validate my ref's as a number of them have been changed due to this fact! really!
hope this helps

Suff

solas wrote:

Is the prophet reference foretold in the Torah the same one Christians claim? (Jesus)

NO, when it comes to Issa (Jesus) he was always fortold as the awaited Messiah. the prophet was different he was to come after the messiah.

if i can remember it correctly, the Israelies*1 Asked John the baptist*2
Are you the messiah? he answered No.
Are you the Prophet? he answerd No.

Christ also spoke of the prophet. (get ref tomorrow )


1. they are called Israelies after Isreal, which is one of the names of the Prohpet Jacob ( Actual Aramic name: Yaqoob)
Jacob had 12 children which most of the jewish people decent from. one of them is Joseph (Actual Aramic name: Yusuf)
2. (Actual Aramic name: Yehya)

woody

Do not assume because what a persons nationalily is due to thier faith.
No personal attcks allowed.
This is not the politics board.

Read the charter.

Nevyn

Noah begat Shem; and Shem begat Arphaxad; and Arphaxad begat Salah; and Salah begat Eber; and Eber begat Peleg; and Peleg begat Reu; and Reu begat Serug; and Serug begat Nahor; and Nahor begat Terah; and Terah begat Abram;

And this is where the trouble started:

and Abram begat Ishmael by the bondwoman, called Hagar. Abram's name was changed by God to Abraham. Abraham begat Isaac by his wife, Sarah, the freewoman.

By tradition, of course, Isaac's descendents became the Jews and Ishmael's became the Arabs (one of Ishmael's descendents, mentioned in Genesis, is an ancestor of The Prophet Mohammed. Therefore, each people have their own account of the story of who did what to whom.

Time Line as told in Genesis

1. Abraham has been told by God that he will father many nations
2. His wife,Sarah, knowing she is past the age of child bearing, tries to help Abraham by allowing Abraham to have a child by her handmaid that he might fulfill God's promise.
3. But Sarah gets jealous when Hagar (the Egyptian handmaid) conceives and Sarah beats her and Hagar runs away.
4. God tells Hagar to go back because the child she carries will be the father of a great nation.
5. Ishmael is born.
6. When Ishmael is 13 God tells Abraham to circumcise himself and his people as a token of the Covenent God has made with him.
7. God tells Sarah and Abraham that they will have a son together.
8. Isaac is born and he is circumcised when he is eight days old thus showing that he wasn't around when Ishmael and the others were circumcised when Ishmael was 13.
9. After Isaac is weaned, Ishmael and his mother are sent away.
10. God intervenes to save Ishmael and his mother (though the child spoken of in these passages seems to be less than 13 (Hagar seems to be able to lift and maybe even carry him) even though he must by now be almost 16 or so).
11. God calls on Abraham to sacrifice Isaac who God calls Abraham's "only son".
12. When Abraham dies, he is buried by both Isaac and Ishmael. He leaves everything he owns to Isaac, with a few gifts for his later children (he had remarried after Sarah died) though no mention of leaving anything specific to Ishmael.

Time Line of the story as told in the Koran (Qur'an) and the Islamic Commentaries:

1. Before Ismael is weaned, Abraham takes the child and his mother to Mecca and leaves them there assuming that God (Allah) would take care of them.
2. Abraham has a dream that tells him to sacrifice his only son, but before he can do so, God stops him.
3. Later Abraham takes various trips back to Mecca to find out how Ishmael is doing and he builds, with Ismael's help, a "House a pilgrimage for men" devoted to Allah.

One of the differences between Genesis and the Koran (Qur'an) concerns just which son was to be sacrificed. The Koran (Qur'an) never names the son. The Islamic Commentaries on the passages, however, suggest that the only time God could have talked about Abraham's "only son" was before the birth of Isaac when Ishmael was Abraham's only son. Isaac, on the other hand, was never Abraham's only son.

The other side argues that Isaac was Abraham's only "legitimate" son (Ishmael, however, was certainly an "acknowledged" son) and that Abraham at this point doesn't even know whether Ishmael is alive or not (since he had sent the boy and his mother off with just a loaf of bread and a skin of water); but God knows that Ishmael is still alive and it is God who is talking about Abraham's "only son".

When Ishmael and his mother were sent away is also entirely different. The Genesis passages suggest that Ishmael was a very young child even though he was, also according to Genesis, 13 before Isaac was born and that Ishmael wasn't sent away until after Isaac was born.

A problem with the way the story is told in Islam is that Abraham asks, and God promises, that his descendents will not fall back into being idol worshipers. And yet the Arabs don't become monotheistic until more than a thousand years later.

Nevyn

Woody,
go read the charter,
this is a board about spirituality and beliefs not politcs.
There are clear guidelines as to what is and not acceptible behaviour here.
IF you wish to discuss politics take to the the politics forum.
Attacking posters and thier beliefs is NOT allowed
This will be your only warning.

Thaed

woody

I think the warning needs to be directed at suff:

"Because of this Many Muslims hate Isreal. me being one of them!"

Now this is an insult to me.

But it seems as if someone stands up for Israeli's or Jews they are shouted down.


Methinks this here is a breading ground for anti-semitism.

My point of views are both Politcial and Religious and you have an extremist SUFF in this forum, word of advice keep your eyes open for extremism of the Islamic Nature

Nevyn

suff wrote:

Because of this Many Muslims hate Isreal. me being one of them!
But hatred towards Jews or Christians was never tolorated by Islam.

You can hate a state or country or thier policies but not the people of that country. Ie hate american policies but not american people.

You made it personal and political.
Banned for a week Woody.

Suff

No personal attcked allowed.
Stop the tit for tat NOW.
This thread is being watched closly and there will not be an islamic forum
if this type of behaviour is happening here.
This will not be permited or condoned.

Yes all edited and nice and sanitised.
Stay on topic.
Suff consider this a formal warning and do not rise to such baits.

Thaed

Stabshauptmann

I went and wrote a big long post after reading your post woody at half nine (yes it took me that long) but now Thead has started to deal with this so Im not going to post it

Stabshauptmann

Suff wrote:

My school has nothing to do with my views!
Man I have a brain (wish you had one too) so I can analyse, research and make my own mind on matters before I can speak my mind.

If you where in my lovely Damascus what school did you go to? where did you live?

Syria is in a state of War aginst Israel so it is typical to the anti-israeli slogens as Israel does with Syria!

one last thing......open your mind! cos it is surly closed from the inside.

Suff I had no problem with your origionall post but you are boardering on personal abuse and both of ye would be wise to stop before bans are handed out

Suff

Kaptain Redeye wrote:

Suff I had no problem with your origionall post but you are boardering on personal abuse and both of ye would be wise to stop before bans are handed out

That is fine,

I didn't insult or abuse, I wanted to correct Woody in a good manner.
ok, ok I did wish he had a brain! for that I Apologies.

I would ask you to remember that it was him who mentioned hate towards Islam & (me) in the Islam Fourm.

I didn't insult him in anyway or asked for him to be banned.
I have stated that I DO NOT hate him or Jewish people.

But yes I do have Big problems with the state of Israel.

Thank you

Nevyn

Civilised posting is all we ask for, honest.
This is not fun for the rest of us.

Suff

solas wrote:

yea..can you reference please. Is the prophet reference foretold in the Torah the same one Christians claim? (Jesus)

The evidence which has been discussed is very convincing and offers a great support to the prophethood of Mohammad. The superiority of the Qur'an itself is primary evidence of this truth (will provide support for this soon) and so are the many quoted prophecies. the Old and the New Testaments contain any prophecy foretelling the advent of the Prophet Mohammad.

There is in the Bible more than one statement which indicate the expectation of the Prophet Mohammad. He is not mentioned by name, but the descriptions seem to fit only Mohammad.

We find in the Deuteronomy book the following statement:

"I will raise up for them (the Israelites) a prophet like you from among their brethren; and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. And whoever will not give heed to My words which he shall speak in My name, I, Myself, will require it of him." 18:18-19

This statement promises that God will raise up a prophet from among the brethren of the Israelites; that that prophet will be like Moses himself; that God will put His own words in the mouth of that prophet; and that that prophet will speak those words in the name of God Who put them in his mouth.

Thus, the expected prophet has three descriptions, none of them is applicable but to the Prophet Mohammad:

1. The promised prophet will be from the brethren of the Israelites. The Israelites are related only to the Arabs. There are no people in the world that may be called the brethren of the Israelites except the Arabs, because the Israelites are the descendants of Isaac, and the Arabs are the descendants of Ishmael, the older brother of Isaac.

2. That prophet will be like Moses. Moses was a prophet of a new dispensation, and he was a secular as well as a spiritual leader to his people. This description fits only Mohammad among all the prophets who came after Moses. None of those prophets, including Jesus, was sent with new rules and dispensations. Jesus followed the dispensations of Moses and did not introduce new religious laws. Nor was he a secular leader to the Israelites. In addition to this, all those prophets, except Mohammad, came from the Israelites themselves and not from their brethren.

3. The statement described the promised prophet as a prophet who will not speak of his own. The very words of God will be put in his mouth.

No prophet except Mohammad has claimed that his book contains the very words of God. Moses himself received the revelation, but he conveyed the heavenly message by his own words. What we read in the five books of Moses is considered to be the words of Moses, not the very words of God.

All the books of which the Old Testament is composed were written and worded by human writers, and so are the four gospels. Jesus spoke the truth which he received, but he spoke in his own words. The Bible, at best, is considered a dialogue between God and man.

Only the Qur'an contains the words which Mohammad recited as the very direct words of God. Mohammad never claimed any word in the Qur'an. He recited the Qur'anic words as the words of God who put them in the mouth of Mohammad.

Thus, the descriptions seem to fit only Mohammad, and no one else.

Another statement, indicating the anticipation of Mohammad, is found in the same Deuteronomy book:

"This is the blessing with which Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death. He said: The Lord came from Sinai, and dawned from Seir upon us; He shone forth from Mount Paran, He came from the ten thousands of holy ones with flaming fire at His right hand." 33
The Lord's coming means the coming of His revelation. Moses spoke of God's manifestation to three prophets at three places: The manifestation in Sinai which represents the prophethood of Moses himself.

The other manifestation is the revelation which was received at Seir. This represents the revelation which was received by Jesus because Seir is located in the land of Jordan.

The third manifestation is the light of God which shone from the Mount of Paran. This represents the prophethood of Mohammad. The Mount of Paran is located in the country of Hijaz, the country in which Mohammad was born and lived. The following words give more indications to this fact:

"He came from the ten thousands of holy ones, with flaming fire at His right hand. "
Mohammad is the Prophet who re-entered Mecca (he left Mecca after he sent all the his followers to Madina, due to the large threats from the Meccan's), the capital of Hijaz, heading an army of ten thousand Muslims by which he subdued the idol-worshippers of Mecca.
he did not shed one drop of blood in this event, and when asked by the Mecca's as what he is going to do with them after they have killed/touture/ cast away the muslims.
replied: "Go, you are Free."

The New Testament, also, contains some clear anticipation of the advent of Mohammad:

"Jesus said unto them (the Israelites), did ye never read in the scriptures, the stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: This is the Lord's doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes. Therefore say I unto you, the kingdom of God shall be taken from you and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder." Matthew 21:42-44


The statement is a prophecy informing the Jews that the kingdom of God shall be taken from them, and that it will be given to another nation. No other nation after Jesus had claimed a heavenly message except the Arab nation which conveyed to the world the message of Islam which was revealed to Mohammad. Jesus called the nation which will supersede the Israelites "the stone which was rejected by the builders."

This is a reference to the covenant which was made between God and Isaac, at the time of Abraham, of which Ishmael was excluded. From the Old Testament:

"As for Ishmael, I have heard you; behold, I will bless him and make him fruitful and multiply him exceedingly: he shall be the father of twelve princes and I will make him a great nation. But I will establish my covenant with Isaac, whom Sarah shall bear to you at this season next year." 1:17:20-21
Ishmael and his children, according to this statement, have been excluded, at the time of Abraham, from the covenant, and for this, Jesus called them the stone which was rejected by the builders.

Now Jesus was informing the Israelites that the same stone which was rejected will become the head of the corner.

Mohammad and the Arabs are descendants of Ishmael, and these are the nation which Jesus expected to supersede the Israelite nation.

Jesus described the superseding nation as a crushing stone; whoever falls on it will be broken, and on whom it may fall, it will grind him to powder. This means that that nation which will receive the kingdom of God will be a brave nation, capable of defeating any enemy that may attack it and crushing any enemy it may attack.

This description is applicable only to the Arab nation which was distinguished from among all nations by carrying a spiritual message and by being brave enough to defend itself and to defeat its enemies.
History, after Jesus, had witnessed many brave nations, but none of them were motivated by a heavenly revelation except the nation of Mohammad.

more to come!

Nevyn

Suff while open dicussion is welcome and your belifes are your please do watch the tone of your language. This forum is a place for open civil discussion and we wont tolerate the sneering at at other faiths. Explaining differneces is one thing
stating that one path or religion is better then others is not allowed.
May be better for you in your life but out and out running down of others is not allowed.

Suff wrote:

The superiority of the Qur'an itself is primary evidence of this truth

All old religious texts due to the fact they are old and language shifts and changes have not remained the same. Even in my own faith where some of the texts are less then 60 years old and for the most case in english this is still the case.

Suff wrote:

Only the Qur'an contains the words which Mohammad recited as the very direct words of God. Mohammad never claimed any word in the Qur'an. He recited the Qur'anic words as the words of God who put them in the mouth of Mohammad.

Were not the words of god told to Mohammad by an angel for (Metatron , the voice of god) mere men and mortals can not stand to hear the direct words of god.

Suff wrote:

History, after Jesus, had witnessed many brave nations, but none of them were motivated by a heavenly revelation except the nation of Mohammad.

I would disagree here also for many are the catholics and christains that have been moved and motivated by the heabenly revelations of 'Mary mother of Jesus' over the years and how she had appeared with messages all over the world. Not my faith but that of many of my family.

You took great pains to point out that being Jewish is a religion on the forums
thread Suff and yet here you seem to be gloating that the Arabs are a better people then the Jews and na na na an we hold the keys to the heaven they dont have them anymore. That really isnt nice, this is to be an open dicussion
not a my team are better then your team session nor a chance to lecture.

Suff

Thaed wrote:

Suff while open dicussion is welcome and your belifes are your please do watch the tone of your language. This forum is a place for open civil discussion and we wont tolerate the sneering at at other faiths. Explaining differneces is one thing
stating that one path or religion is better then others is not allowed.
May be better for you in your life but out and out running down of others is not allowed.

I did not intend to do so at all, when you a point needs to be argued you have to put it forward and get the feedback from others.
this is called a dialouge.

Thaed wrote:

All old religious texts due to the fact they are old and language shifts and changes have not remained the same.

I agree this but Not with the Quraan! as it has remind the same for 1400 years.
there are a number of 1300 year old Quraans and they have the exact text word to word to any newly printed Quraan text.
this is a Fact I would ask you to check it if you wish at your time.

Thaed wrote:

Were not the words of god told to Mohammad by an angel for (Metatron , the voice of god) mere men and mortals can not stand to hear the direct words of god.

Correct, the word was spoken thru Gabriel. the only man known to have ever spoken to God is Moses (PBUH)

Thaed wrote:

I would disagree here also for many are the catholics and christains that have been moved and motivated by the heabenly revelations of 'Mary mother of Jesus' over the years and how she had appeared with messages all over the world. Not my faith but that of many of my family.

I would disagree here, as Muslims do not believe that Mary would appear.
Mary (PBUH) is only a holy women who gave birth to Christ. she does not hold any power or status to re-appear.
actually in Islam no one re-appears after death. no matter who!
No saints in Islam.
there is only you and God you only pray to him and will only answer to him.

can I ask you if it's not rude what is your faith?

Thaed wrote:

You took great pains to point out that being Jewish is a religion on the forums
thread Suff and yet here you seem to be gloating that the Arabs are a better people then the Jews and na na na an we hold the keys to the heaven they dont have them anymore. That really isnt nice, this is to be an open dicussion
not a my team are better then your team session nor a chance to lecture.

I did not say Arabs are better than Jews!

"No man is better than other but only in his good deeds"

I am not trying to portrate the Jews in any bad way at all. Please make note of this.
I am only stating the historic facts from a number of well known books and researchs done by scholars.

Jews have rejected the word of Christ when they knew he was the awaited Messiah (FACT), then rejected the word of Mohammad knowing he was the awaited Prophet. (FACT to some scholars and is a hot topic from some)

if that insult any person, then...

we can't say that the english occupied Ireland and killed many Irish people! cos that would insult the english!

German Nazi's killed many Jews as this would insult German people!

or that the US goverment killed over 1 million people in Hiroshima, 1 million Iraqi Child as this would insult the american people!

it's facts, if some people have problems with them then we can never have a freedom of expression (in civilised manner)
thank you

Suff

Suff wrote:

1. The promised prophet will be from the brethren of the Israelites. The Israelites are related only to the Arabs. There are no people in the world that may be called the brethren of the Israelites except the Arabs, because the Israelites are the descendants of Isaac, and the Arabs are the descendants of Ishmael, the older brother of Isaac.

I have just stated that Jews and Arabs are Brothers.
they come from the same father..Ibrahem.

Just because I am a Muslim that does't mean that I have anti-Jewish ideas!!!

I love having a dialouge with others and I do wish that some people from the Jewish faith come and join us.

solas

I need time to digest that suff, but I do have a lot of questions, just need to figure out how to ask them.

I suppose first one would be in relation to

None of those prophets, including Jesus, was sent with new rules and dispensations. Jesus followed the dispensations of Moses and did not introduce new religious laws.

many christians would disagree. Isn't that why he was crucified?
The gospels say Jesus offered new commandments
JOHN 15:9-12 (RSV)

As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you; abide in my love.
If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.

These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.
This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.

and..
"Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment." (Matthew 22:37-38 KJV)

"And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. (Matthew 22:39-40 KJV)

Suff

solas wrote:

I need time to digest that suff, but I do have a lot of questions, just need to figure out how to ask them.

No problem, ask as many as you wish and I'll try to answer as much as I can.

solas wrote:

I suppose first one would be in relation to
many christians would disagree. Isn't that why he was crucified?

In Islam we don't believe that Christ was crucified.

In Sura AN-NISA (WOMEN) 4:156-159 (Quraan)
"That they rejected Faith; That they uttered against Mary A grave false charge; That they said (in boast): 'We killed Christ Jesus The son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah.' But they killed him not, Nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjunction to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. Nay, Allah raised him up Unto Himself; and Allah Is Exalted in Power, Wise. And there is none of the people of the book (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him (Jesus) Before his death; And on the Day of Judgment He (Jesus) will be a witness Against them."

In Sura AL-E-IMRAN (THE FAMILY OF 'IMRAN, THE HOUSE OF 'IMRAN*)
3:55 (Quraan)
"Behold! Allah said: O Jesus! I will take thee And raise thee to Myself And clear thee (of the falsehoods) Of those who blaspheme; I will make those Who follow thee superior To those who reject faith, To the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, And I will judge Between you of the matters wherein ye dispute."

solas wrote:

The gospels say Jesus offered new commandments
JOHN 15:9-12 (RSV)

As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you; abide in my love.
If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.

These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.
This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.

and..
"Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment." (Matthew 22:37-38 KJV)

"And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. (Matthew 22:39-40 KJV)

Yes, these are some of the important rules the were sent with Moses (PBUH). (Also repeated in Islam to a point)

One of the things to be noticed is that Christ (PBUH) was sent to make the people of Israel remember GOD and return to the path delivered by Moses (PBUH).
However Christ (PBUH) did not provide/introduce any "Life" laws, it was more of spirtual laws than life related.

Jews and Muslims have rules for nearly every part and activity in life.
from Eating/prayers/trading/birth/death/marrige/family/inheritance.


*Imaran is the father of Mary, they were well known as Holy people.

Suff

Just a Note,

In Islam, Christ (PBUH) plays a MAJOR part of the Islamic faith.
Muslims beleive he is the awaited Messiah and awaits his return.

I'll post some of the texts in the Quraan on Christ.

Kevin_rc_ie

did you say that Muhammad wrote the Qur'an with the words of god? i always thought that Muhammad could neither read or write.

Frank Grimes

Kevin_rc_ie wrote:

did you say that Muhammad wrote the Qur'an with the words of god? i always thought that Muhammad could neither read or write.

The various revelations were written down by his Companions who were literate, others memorised them. Muhammad himself was illiterate.
They were compiled into the Qur'an as it is today under the Caliph Uthman during his reign (644-656AD).

Suff

Correct

there are three old Quraan texts in the world today, around 1300 years old.
one in Eygpt, Boghara and one in Turkey.

The Thing about Quraan is that God had promised to keep it from being altered.

Quraan, Sura AL-HIJR (AL-HIJR, STONELAND, ROCK CITY)
"Surely We have revealed the Reminder and We will most surely be its guardian" (15:9)

Therefore all Texts from the first Quraan to our current day are the same, word to word, letter to letter.

There are SEVEN ways to read the Quraan, which are known to be the seven A'hruf (letters) they are accents.
However, this does not have any change/effect on the actual words.
They can be read in a slight difference but have the same meaning.

Kevin_rc_ie

surely it's written in a form of arabic that isn't still spoken today. something along the lines of texts written in english 700 years ago would look strange to a modern person. so can it remain eternal, if it remains in a archaic language?

Frank Grimes

Kevin_rc_ie wrote:

surely it's written in a form of arabic that isn't still spoken today. something along the lines of texts written in english 700 years ago would look strange to a modern person. so can it remain eternal, if it remains in a archaic language?

It's in Classical Arabic which is still in use today.

Kevin_rc_ie

really? 1400 year old dialect? that's saying something.

Suff

Kevin_rc_ie wrote:

really? 1400 year old dialect? that's saying something.

it's way older than 1400 years.
Arabic is a Semitic language, closely related to Hebrew and Aramaic.
its hard to find the correct date but some scholars state that the oldest arabic artifacts found go back to 1200 BC.
Arabic is the new Aramic as some would say.

solas

However Christ (PBUH) did not provide/introduce any "Life" laws, it was more of spirtual laws than life related.

y'know I was going to touch on this point but I didn't really know how to make it. I figure this is the difference between a Messenger of God and a Prophet of God?

I have too many questions right now but I feel like I would have to study up a bit in order to ask...so I'll leave it settle for a while.

Suff

solas wrote:

I figure this is the difference between a Messenger of God and a Prophet of God?

I think the differences are:

Messenger (Rasool) which is also a Prophet. Deliver a set of rules, a Book.
like Moses, Jesus and Mohammad (PBUT)

Prophet (Nabiy) Does not Deliver a book or rules. but delivers a idea of worshiping ONE GOD.
like Noah, Jacob, Josph, Issac, Ismael and John the Baptist.

Now, this is as far as what we have been told in the Quraan.
there might be other books/prophets that we don't know of.

solas wrote:

I have too many questions right now but I feel like I would have to study up a bit in order to ask...so I'll leave it settle for a while.

No problem, please feel free to ask anything you like even if you thought it might be little bit silly.
Thanks

stevenmu

Suff wrote:

None of those prophets, including Jesus, was sent with new rules and dispensations. Jesus followed the dispensations of Moses and did not introduce new religious laws.

I'd disagree slightly here, Jesus did bring his own rules. Solas pointed out some, another major one I can think of is the whole concept of turning the other cheek versus the eye for an eye mentality of the old testament. Of course "eye for an eye" does go against the original ten commandments but even today many people point to it's use in the old testament for it's use today.

NeilJ

The whole concept of an eye for an eye was actually supposed to be a minimising guideline i.e. I steal your sheep you demand one of mine instead of you burn down my farm and kill my whole family. It unfortunately like everything else got corrupted and twisted over the years. Another area where Jesus brought change was the role of the Pharisees and the effects they had on everyday life, particularly what you could do on the Sabbath. The whole day of rest thing had been taken to an extreme by the time Jesus appeared, so you could only walk a certain number of miles, carry a certain about of weight etc. Jesus said this was taking things too far. Another example of changing the rules of everyday life and not just a development of belief in God.

Neil

Stabshauptmann

Suff wrote:

I would disagree here, as Muslims do not believe that Mary would appear.
Mary (PBUH) is only a holy women who gave birth to Christ. she does not hold any power or status to re-appear.

You said Islam is the only nation motivated by a heavenly revalation since Jesus's life. Thead pointed out that others would disagree eg Christians and Mary. Other eastern religions spring to mind as well.

Your reply is a catagorical denial that this is the case because it contradicts your belief. Doesnt sound very tolerant or open to discussion to me.
The claim that Islam is the one true faith, because that is infact what you are saying, is against the rules.

This may not have been clear to you, however you have been warned already in this thread.

Jews have rejected the word of Christ when they knew he was the awaited Messiah (FACT)

If you say that or anything like that again I will ban you. Do you understand?

then rejected the word of Mohammad knowing he was the awaited Prophet. (FACT to some scholars and is a hot topic from some)

if that insult any person, then...

we can't say that the english occupied Ireland and killed many Irish people! cos that would insult the english!

German Nazi's killed many Jews as this would insult German people!

or that the US goverment killed over 1 million people in Hiroshima, 1 million Iraqi Child as this would insult the american people!

it's facts, if some people have problems with them then we can never have a freedom of expression (in civilised manner)
thank you

You seem to be much more carefull about insulting christians than jews...

solas

jews have rejected the word of Christ when they knew he was the awaited Messiah (FACT)

why would saying this be banworthy?
They did reject the word of christ? (didn't they?)

Kevin_rc_ie

Suff wrote:

it's way older than 1400 years.
Arabic is a Semitic language, closely related to Hebrew and Aramaic.
its hard to find the correct date but some scholars state that the oldest arabic artifacts found go back to 1200 BC.
Arabic is the new Aramic as some would say.

did you misunderstand me or did i misunderstand you or are you saying "Arabic" hasn't changed in 3000 years?

Stabshauptmann

"when they knew he was the awaited messiah"

The Jews still await their messiah, its their belief; and whether you believe or not Jesus was the saviour it cannot be presented as fact.

Stabshauptmann

However a thread discussing the prophecies relating to the comming of christ and how well these have been met would be perfectly acceptable.

Thead has made the point as well, Suff is presenting Islam as if it were superior/the one true faith. Thats not on.

solas

ooh..right.

Kevin_rc_ie

it's impossible for him to be completely objective about this subject. cut him some slack. so what if he says as if it's the truth for everybody, i don't think it makes any difference to people that disagreeing with his opinions. don't turn this in to a PC mud hole.

Stabshauptmann

A lot of slack has been given, hes not banned, hes just being given a clear warning