Iarnród Éireann is a joke - €52.50 to Cork???

dublinguy2004

Why does it cost €52.50 to get a train from Dublin to Cork on public transport via Iarnrod Eireann, yet is costs €10 to get a bus from Dublin to Cork on the Aircoach service?
Aircoach is a private company. What are Iarnrod Eireann doing with all their money? The Aircoach service is quicker than rail, is extremely comfortable and the driver we had was the most friendly and funniest bus driver I've ever come across.
Why are we still using diesel trains in this day and age? Diesel trains operate at much reduced efficiency (<40%) to their electric counterparts as used extensively on the continent. Electric trains emit far less greenhouse gases as the power they use comes from gas turbine plants (70%+ efficiency) and from renewable sources.
If Iarnrod Eireann could get their act together and have high-speed links (i.e. at least 90 minute) services to all the major Irish cities (Cork, Waterford, Galway, Belfast), then perhaps then they could justify such 500% price differences.
High speed rail links have been done before all over the world and the technology is well matured. I wish IE would stop telling us about all the work they're doing via extensive PR campaigns and actually deliver a top quality rail network that is fundamental to this economy's needs. Investing money in high speed rail (and not 1970s diesel technology) will pay off massively. In my opinion, the recent purchases of new carriages and engines are a complete waste of money. They are bog-standard, commuter-land trains and completely unsuitable for modern Ireland. Infrastructure problems in this country are and will kill the economy if our state rail authorities (amongst other transport authorities) don't pull the finger out.
Thank you Mr. Aircoach. I wish you could start a train service too, but I'm sure IE would have something to say about that.

Genghis

Personally speaking, I'd much rather train to bus. While I agree with you that there should be faster rail links, I would say that rail in the main is competitive on time vs bus (perhaps you travelled off peak*). It certainly is more reliable in terms of time taken - in my experience IE have an excellent track record for departing and arriving on time (not 100%, but very good), and they operate outside the vagaries of road travel - roadworks, traffic, accidents, slow drivers, etc.

On the price issue - while it might be €52.50 for a one-way ticket, it would be about €54.50 for a return trip - still more expensive than the €15 return fare quoted on Aircoach.ie I agree, but not 500% anymore.

Furthermore, if you took IE up on some of their promotional fares (as the Aircoach fare you quote is a limited time offer, it is only fair to compare like with like), you could take advantage of a €10 day fare Dublin to Cork (not on offer at the minute, but are regulalry promoted to fill off-peak trains). Also Aircoach do not offer monthly tickets, etc - IE do, and by using these you can dramatically reduce the cost of your fare.

Travel by train is far better - eat, drink, read, walk about, etc all more comfortable on train. Aircoach, if I had the choice, would be the company I'd use, but only if the train didn't suit me.


* Dublin to Cork is apx 180 miles. If you are travelling the full route by train it typically takes 3 hours and some minutes (less if it is an express / direct service). In order for the bus to compete with this it would pretty much need to be able to go max speed the full way (i.e. average 55-60 mph). This is pretty unrealistic at most times.

Scruff

dublinguy2004 wrote:

Why does it cost €52.50 to get a train from Dublin to Cork on public transport via Iarnrod Eireann, yet is costs €10 to get a bus from Dublin to Cork on the Aircoach service?
Aircoach is a private company. What are Iarnrod Eireann doing with all their money?

They are govenment owned, and have unions and all to pander to.

Why are we still using diesel trains in this day and age? Diesel trains operate at much reduced efficiency (<40%) to their electric counterparts as used extensively on the continent. Electric trains emit far less greenhouse gases as the power they use comes from gas turbine plants (70%+ efficiency) and from renewable sources.

High speed rail links have been done before all over the world and the technology is well matured. I wish IE would stop telling us about all the work they're doing via extensive PR campaigns and actually deliver a top quality rail network that is fundamental to this economy's needs. Investing money in high speed rail (and not 1970s diesel technology) will pay off massively. In my opinion, the recent purchases of new carriages and engines are a complete waste of money. They are bog-standard, commuter-land trains and completely unsuitable for modern Ireland. Infrastructure problems in this country are and will kill the economy if our state rail authorities (amongst other transport authorities) don't pull the finger out.
Thank you Mr. Aircoach. I wish you could start a train service too, but I'm sure IE would have something to say about that.

it would cost a fortune to electrify the rail network. IE\Government arent willing to be that far sighted about national infrastructure. Also it would probably end up costing x3 the estimate and take an extra 10 years.

Totally agree with ye though.l

dublinguy2004

Scruff wrote:

They are govenment owned, and have unions and all to pander to.



it would cost a fortune to electrify the rail network. IE\Government arent willing to be that far sighted about national infrastructure. Also it would probably end up costing x3 the estimate and take an extra 10 years.

Totally agree with ye though.l

See this article: http://www.china.org.cn/english/China/134098.htm
The Chinese can do a 110km, 30 min journey time railway in a couple of years for about €1bn, so why can't we? I just don't buy the excuses that projects always end up costing x5 more and take 10 years to complete. It doesn't 'cost a fortune to electrify the rail network' given the HUGE economic returns to be gained if Irish businesses could operate just 60-90 minutes from each other.
The reason I would give for major infrastructure projects running over budget and over time is that they are riddled in corruption where Paddy-local-builder and Joey-local-landowner have their backs strached at the expense of your average PAYE worker who has to endure 3 hours in a car to a west Dublin suburb just 15 miles from the city because of such corruption.
This kind of 'planning' has done untold damage around the Dublin area in particular and will cost billions to undo. Let's build the bloody railways, rid ourselves of corrupt public spending and get on with sustainable economic development and not short term corrupt gain for those in power.

parsi

dublinguy2004 wrote:

See this article: http://www.china.org.cn/english/China/134098.htm
The Chinese can do a 110km, 30 min journey time railway in a couple of years for about €1bn, so why can't we?

The Chinese can pay peanuts to their workers.

Please remember that if IE are to invest in high-speed running then the money has to come from somewhere. Are you willing to pay more tax ?

Genghis

dublinguy2004 wrote:

See this article: http://www.china.org.cn/english/China/134098.htm
The Chinese can do a 110km, 30 min journey time railway in a couple of years for about €1bn, so why can't we? I just don't buy the excuses that projects always end up costing x5 more and take 10 years to complete. It doesn't 'cost a fortune to electrify the rail network' given the HUGE economic returns to be gained if Irish businesses could operate just 60-90 minutes from each other.
The reason I would give for major infrastructure projects running over budget and over time is that they are riddled in corruption where Paddy-local-builder and Joey-local-landowner have their backs strached at the expense of your average PAYE worker who has to endure 3 hours in a car to a west Dublin suburb just 15 miles from the city because of such corruption.
This kind of 'planning' has done untold damage around the Dublin area in particular and will cost billions to undo. Let's build the bloody railways, rid ourselves of corrupt public spending and get on with sustainable economic development and not short term corrupt gain for those in power.

In fairness, I can't see planning issues holding up the sort of project you are talking about - IE own the land along the rail corridor, so presumably there would be less 'planning issues' when upgrading (not like when you are trying to build a new motorway, for example). If the will was there, and of contracts are advertised, negotiated and agreed properly (i.e. fixed cost / penalty clause contracts), then there might be the prospect of progress.

dublinguy2004

Genghis wrote:

Personally speaking, I'd much rather train to bus. While I agree with you that there should be faster rail links, I would say that rail in the main is competitive on time vs bus (perhaps you travelled off peak*). It certainly is more reliable in terms of time taken - in my experience IE have an excellent track record for departing and arriving on time (not 100%, but very good), and they operate outside the vagaries of road travel - roadworks, traffic, accidents, slow drivers, etc.

On the price issue - while it might be €52.50 for a one-way ticket, it would be about €54.50 for a return trip - still more expensive than the €15 return fare quoted on Aircoach.ie I agree, but not 500% anymore.

Furthermore, if you took IE up on some of their promotional fares (as the Aircoach fare you quote is a limited time offer, it is only fair to compare like with like), you could take advantage of a €10 day fare Dublin to Cork (not on offer at the minute, but are regulalry promoted to fill off-peak trains). Also Aircoach do not offer monthly tickets, etc - IE do, and by using these you can dramatically reduce the cost of your fare.

Travel by train is far better - eat, drink, read, walk about, etc all more comfortable on train. Aircoach, if I had the choice, would be the company I'd use, but only if the train didn't suit me.


* Dublin to Cork is apx 180 miles. If you are travelling the full route by train it typically takes 3 hours and some minutes (less if it is an express / direct service). In order for the bus to compete with this it would pretty much need to be able to go max speed the full way (i.e. average 55-60 mph). This is pretty unrealistic at most times.

Are you sure you're not one of those PR gurus that work on behalf of Iarnrod Eireann. I cannot believe you're so naive to what's actually going on. Is your motto "We're not there yet, but we're getting there"?
Oh and if you go on a Tuesday or Wednesday via Aircoach, it's only €7.

Alun

The Chinese can pay peanuts to their workers.

They also probably have zero planning consultation, and if anyone gets in the way of it then tough.

Also consider that these so-called cities you speak of joining up with a high-speed rail links would hardly be considered as small towns in the countries that have such networks and would probably not provide enough potential passengers to make such a thing viable.

weehamster

Sorry Dublinguy2004. While I understand your anger I have to disagree with you.

Firstly I have to say there is no way that the bus is more comfortable that the train (of course that depends if you have a seat). At least you can get up and walk around and even go and get a beer and the loo. I have to say that I defo feel physically and mentally better getting off a train in Cork than a bus.

Also the train is quicker. A bus can get caught in traffic and get stuck in bottlenecks, which slows you down and adds to your stress levels.

While myself and others would love to have a high speed rail line, just simply electrifing the line will not get you from Dublin to Cork in 90 minutes. The line is shared by other services. The Galway, Limerick/Ennis and the Tralee trains use this line. You also have to include the stops in-between Dublin and Cork. I would love a direct service between Dublin and Cork/Limerick/Galway, but this would require 2 new tracks, separate from the existing lines, and this would cost a fortune.

Considering that the Government is dragging its feet on more urgently required project like the electrifying the lines to Drogheda, Maynooth and Kildare, bring the DART to theses towns as well as new lines to Dublin Airport and Dunboyne and linking them all with a tunnel going through the heart of Dublin 2, costing €3.4b, there is fat chance of getting Dublin to Cork electrified.
.

murphaph

While Dublin-Cork electrification would be 'nice', it would do little for journey times by itself. The line is riddled with speed restrictions and the maximum speed allowed anywhere is 100 mph. If these localised speed restictions could be eliminated and the entire line upgraded to 125mph running then diesel hauled trains (like the HST in England) could easily make the journey from city centre to city centre in a much more competitive time than any road vehicle, even with continuous motorway!

In any case, Bomardier have a gas turbine powered locomotive that can compete on speed with many high speed electric trains.

jlang

I haven't taken many inter-city busses and do have a liking for the train to Cork, Limerick, Galway, Westport, etc but I do believe that as the new motorways start to connect the cities, the bus will be a genuine challenge to the train on the intercity routes. The Aircoach vehicles are extremely comfortable, the travel times are coming down with the new roads and as the previous posters have stated, the price is very appealing. Being able to get the country bus from the city centre or the airport, without having to trek out to Heuston, would also be a plus for the bus. The train going to an hourly timetable will be an improvement, but a private bus service can scale even more easily if the passengers make their choice, especially investment dowsn't need to wait for government approval and 10-year plans.

I can see the future of the train industry in this country being mass commuter transit in and around the cities rather than the long haul inter city services, which appear to be pricing themselves into just being a luxery option. Direct high speed lines are pie-in-the-sky and couldn't be afforded, even if they were feasable. The Dublin Rail Plan, DARTs to Drogheda, Navan, Tallaght, etc are where we should be expecting future improvements.

And, yes - EUR50+ for a train ticket to Cork is very high compared with the price of taking a bus (or a car with say three people in it).

Bamboozled

I gave up on the train issue. Travelled from Cork to Dublin every weekend. Up to Dub on Fri, back down on Sun. With the cost of the 5 day return (it was cheaper than 2 1 ways and there were no other options), plus the £30 taxi ride to Clonee from the train station, and £30 back, I bought a car instead.

Something needs to be done about the rail and the prices, they're pushing using public transport on us, and not doing much to the actual transport.

saobh_ie

Adult Regular € 44.99 EUR
Fri, 15 Jul 05 Flight 603
07:30 Depart Dublin (DUB)
08:25 Arrives Cork (ORK)

Although I have no clue where cork airport is....

And while 44 euro for a one way to cork is hella expensive if you plan to travel up and down regualr you could buy leapfrogs months in advance. You know, buy return trips with whatever gap between that suits and overlap the tickets so you'd travel down on one ticket, travel back on the first one, go back down on the third and come back up on the first etc etc. I know some people who did this with Ryanair to Luton for work for a few months a couple of years ago.

Of course thier schedule was set in stone with no opportunity for change a year before they started the job.

I'd go for the air coach option though, I really like thier buse's they're quality. Especially if you can get into the back row, right hand side with all its emergency exit leg room goodness. Air conditioning, fairly decent seats. Oh Yes indeedy.

dead air

Personally, I have no problems with IE. Although, I only commute with them and not travel long distance. The trains on the Northern commuter line has seen a noticeable improvement in capacity, puncuality and frequency over the last couple of years.

I live in Balbriggan and it's cheaper and considerably faster than Bus Eireann. A Dublin Bus no. 33 takes around 2.5 hours to get from Eden Quay to Balbriggan, Bus Eireann takes between 60 and 100 minutes depending on the time of day (have been stuck on bus eireann more than once for 3 hours on GAA match days) and IE takes an average of 40-45 minutes.

Propellerhead

The 21.45 Kildare train was cancelled tonight because there was no driver for it.

Instead, a bus was provided stopping at Hazelhatch, Celbridge, Sallins, Naas, Newbridge and Kildare. The train is scheduled to arrive at the Hatch at 21.59 and the bus got there at around 22.10. Not bad going late in the evening, especially when the Dublin Bus service can take anything up to forty five minutes off peak on the run from Heuston to Celbridge.

It wasn't too bad for me, but I felt sorry for passengers going further. At least there was a bus. Next train (the last one) is 22.45 and who knows if that was cancelled or not. We don't exactly have trains or buses every fifteen minutes or so here in Kildare...

John R

Propellerhead wrote:

The 21.45 Kildare train was cancelled tonight because there was no driver for it.

Instead, a bus was provided stopping at Hazelhatch, Celbridge, Sallins, Naas, Newbridge and Kildare. The train is scheduled to arrive at the Hatch at 21.59 and the bus got there at around 22.10. Not bad going late in the evening, especially when the Dublin Bus service can take anything up to forty five minutes off peak on the run from Heuston to Celbridge.

The Bus Eireann service is given 30mns from Busaras to Celbridge

Propellerhead wrote:

It wasn't too bad for me, but I felt sorry for passengers going further. At least there was a bus. Next train (the last one) is 22.45 and who knows if that was cancelled or not. We don't exactly have trains or buses every fifteen minutes or so here in Kildare...

Not far off it in Celbridge though. Dublin Bus 67/A every 30-40 minutes or so and Bus Eireann 123 half hourly most of the day. About 65 buses in each direction daily plus Rail and Mortons.

Propellerhead

John R wrote:

Not far off it in Celbridge though. Dublin Bus 67/A every 30-40 minutes or so and Bus Eireann 123 half hourly most of the day. About 65 buses in each direction daily plus Rail and Mortons.

I never use Mortons as I travel after 1900 most evenings.

Bus Eireann offer buses at 1930, 2030, 2130 and 2300.
Dublin Bus offer 1855, 1930, 2010, 2100, 2205 and 2315.
Iarnrod Eireann's trains are 1835, 1940, 2145 and 2245.

It could be worse but there should be at least a fifteen minute headway between 67s. IE want to offer a fifteen minute service after the Kildare Route Upgrade but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for the investment needed.

The 67 can be maddenlingly slow. Last Friday I boarded the 2100 bus at Heuston at 2117 and arrived in Celbridge at 2155. It felt as if the bus was in third gear all the way home.

murphaph

Propellerhead wrote:

IE want to offer a fifteen minute service after the Kildare Route Upgrade but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for the investment needed.

I believe it's 6tph, so one every 10 minutes from Hazelhatch at peak times post Kildare Route Project. The funding has already been agreed by government, that is not part of the 10 year plan we keep hearing about.

Of course the DRP is what's really needed, DART from Hazelhatch to Stephen's Green in 20 mins or so and beyond to Drogheda! Expect Celbridge to grow faster towards the station!

I remember when we were kids we used to cycle to Hazelhatch and put pennies on the tracks to flatten them!

Haven't been in the station since it was reopened mind.

dublinguy2004

jlang wrote:

I haven't taken many inter-city busses and do have a liking for the train to Cork, Limerick, Galway, Westport, etc but I do believe that as the new motorways start to connect the cities, the bus will be a genuine challenge to the train on the intercity routes. The Aircoach vehicles are extremely comfortable, the travel times are coming down with the new roads and as the previous posters have stated, the price is very appealing. Being able to get the country bus from the city centre or the airport, without having to trek out to Heuston, would also be a plus for the bus. The train going to an hourly timetable will be an improvement, but a private bus service can scale even more easily if the passengers make their choice, especially investment dowsn't need to wait for government approval and 10-year plans.

I can see the future of the train industry in this country being mass commuter transit in and around the cities rather than the long haul inter city services, which appear to be pricing themselves into just being a luxery option. Direct high speed lines are pie-in-the-sky and couldn't be afforded, even if they were feasable. The Dublin Rail Plan, DARTs to Drogheda, Navan, Tallaght, etc are where we should be expecting future improvements.

And, yes - EUR50+ for a train ticket to Cork is very high compared with the price of taking a bus (or a car with say three people in it).

"Direct high speed lines are pie-in-the-sky and couldn't be afforded, even if they were feasable."
This is what I really hate about Ireland; people just accept things and have no ambition to make things really good if not the best. Dublin is a city of nearly 1.5m people, with Cork and Belfast's population being 300,000 and 500,000 respectively. Far smaller cities on continental Europe have high-speed links, why can't we?

You're right, €50+ for a wishy-washy timetabled, 1970s diesel technology, 3-hour+ train service to the second most populous city in the country is very high. It's a rip-off if you ask me.

And as for West Dublin! West Dublin is a complete mess! I could not imagine enduring a daily trek to some of these outer-suburban residental masses that have sprawled themselves across pastures green. I'll admit IE and others have been left to try and accomodate such areas as they have no concrete plans and population predictions to work from because let's face it, there is no planning in this country and suburban sprawls are allowed to spring up anywhere even though there is absolutely no infrastructure in place.

Why can't we do things the other way round? I.e. build roads/rail links first and then put in the houses/industry as is done very effectively in Germany, France, Holland etc.

John R

The Morton's model isn't far off what you would get if private companies were given free reign. Generally services after 1900 are not seen as profitable and are ditched, the lucrative commuter traffic is all that is catered for.

I've said it before, Dublin Bus need several hundred more buses and drivers to provide anything close to a proper service, the city is expanding and the fleet isn't. The government have failed to provide the NDP funds promised for 200 buses in the last few years.

Longer distance routes like the 67 need to be express for several miles from the city with a relief service for the inner suburbs. There is also a need to integrate BE and DB commuter routes more. Towns like Celbridge and Balbriggan are caught in between. The Bus Eireann services are much more suited for them but the prices and ticket options are unattractive so many people end up using the slow city bus service.

dublinguy2004

Eh, you're missing the point. The development has already finished and it's only now that we're thinking about infrastructure. It's all very fine going on about integration between BE and DB and things like outer suburban express busses. Where are the trains/trams/busses/motorways that we should have had built years ago??? We've been booming since '96/'97 for heaven's sake! Ireland is a joke and it's the PAYE paying suburbanite generics that must pay for their pretty crap quality of life!

Calina

dublinguy2004 wrote:

Eh, you're missing the point. The development has already finished and it's only now that we're thinking about infrastructure. It's all very fine going on about integration between BE and DB and things like outer suburban express busses. Where are the trains/trams/busses/motorways that we should have had built years ago??? We've been booming since '96/'97 for heaven's sake! Ireland is a joke and it's the PAYE paying suburbanite generics that must pay for their pretty crap quality of life!

so what are you suggesting, we didn't do it in the past, we may as well muddle on with what we've got now? Or did I get that somehow wrong?

John R

dublinguy2004 wrote:

Eh, you're missing the point. The development has already finished and it's only now that we're thinking about infrastructure. It's all very fine going on about integration between BE and DB and things like outer suburban express busses. Where are the trains/trams/busses/motorways that we should have had built years ago??? We've been booming since '96/'97 for heaven's sake! Ireland is a joke and it's the PAYE paying suburbanite generics that must pay for their pretty crap quality of life!

Eh, I'm not missing the point. You are just ranting about everything. Most of your arguements are stupid and your facts are wide of the mark.
Dublin - Cork trains don't take 3hours+, out of the 20 seperate trains in the current timetable 2 take over 3 hours and both of these are restricted by using slow stock that will not be necessary within a year when the new train sets are delivered. The average journey time is about 2h45m with the fastest a non-stop at 2h24m. Your original suggestion that Aircoach is faster is laughable, they are timetabled at 4hours for the overall journey not including a rest stop. For peak time dep/arr at Dublin I would say that is optomistic at best.

Calina

Aircoach Dublin to Cork 12E
Aircoach Dublin Airport to Dublin 7E

never felt it quite computed economically given that the airport coaches are generally full (and their punctuality usen't be the hottest from the airport, but haven't tried for a while now) but I'm not sure if the intercity service is...

cdebru

aircoach may be charging 12euro at the moment or 7e on tuesday and wednesday but it is a well rehearsed procedure which their owners have engaged in before in many countries particularly the UK

they can afford to bankroll it at the moment in order to put the smaller competition out of business once they have achieved that prices will rise usually to much higher than when they entered the business

take the bargain now but be prepared to pay for it in the long run

enterprise

cdebru wrote:

they can afford to bankroll it at the moment in order to put the smaller competition out of business once they have achieved that prices will rise usually to much higher than when they entered the business

take the bargain now but be prepared to pay for it in the long run

A lesson which the normals on this board fail to realise. How can a fare of €7 being making money. Its a false economy.

dublinguy2004

enterprise wrote:

A lesson which the normals on this board fail to realise. How can a fare of €7 being making money. Its a false economy.

You'd be surprised. Back to the point though, do you honestly think that a slow 250km train journey to Cork for €52.50 represents good value for money considering what you'd get in any other European country?

gjim

Back to the point though, do you honestly think that a slow 250km train journey to Cork for €52.50 represents good value for money considering what you'd get in any other European country?

What does "thinking" have to do with it? Why don't you provide comparisons with the costs in other European countries? I've used trains in at least five other European countries and none were much cheaper (and a couple were a lot dearer) than comparable journeys in Ireland.

As for your suggestion that there's something backward about not building a TVG style link between Dublin and Cork, I suggest we put it on the todo list just after the tunnel under the Irish sea, a free park and ride helicoptor service from the M50 to Stephens Green, giving everyone in the country a million euros and whatever other brilliant idea you come up with next.

Thomond Pk

I do not consider journey times of between 2 hours 33 mins and 3 hours slow.

If you drove from the IFSC in Dublin to South Mall in Cork it would take

45 minutes to Newlands Cross
3 Hours to the Lynch Tunnel Entrance
15 mins to South Mall

If you took the train
Luas from the IFSC to Heuston 15 mins
Boarding time 15 mins
Average Time 2 hours 45 mins
Walk to South Mall 15 mins

Total 3 hours 30 minutes

If You flew

Aircoach 30 mins
Check in 15 mins
Security 30 mins
Boarding 30 mins
Flight Time 45 mins
Baggage reclaim 20 mins
Taxi 30 mins

Total 3 hours 20 minutes

I went down to County Galway today for a meeting it cost 22 euro return and the journey time was less than 2 hours.

Metrobest

gjim wrote:

What does "thinking" have to do with it? Why don't you provide comparisons with the costs in other European countries? I've used trains in at least five other European countries and none were much cheaper (and a couple were a lot dearer) than comparable journeys in Ireland.
.

It's all in the value for money. For less than a one-way to Cork, you can get Thalys from the central Amsterdam to Paris Nord, a four-hour journey, on a very chic, reliable. fast train. So the price is worth it. The reason people do mind paying over fifty euros one way to Cork is that the value for money simply isn't there. For a start, Irish Rail needs to simplify its fare structure. Why are two singles not the same price as one return? Why is there no discount card for regular travellers? Why are there 5-day returns, weekend returns and monthly returns: why not have just a "single" and a "return"?

Sarsfield

Metrobest wrote:

Why are there 5-day returns, weekend returns and monthly returns: why not have just a "single" and a "return"?

I'm guessing its a very basic type of yield management.

Thomond Pk

Basic being the operative word

Calina

Metrobest wrote:

It's all in the value for money. For less than a one-way to Cork, you can get Thalys from the central Amsterdam to Paris Nord, a four-hour journey, on a very chic, reliable. fast train. So the price is worth it. The reason people do mind paying over fifty euros one way to Cork is that the value for money simply isn't there. For a start, Irish Rail needs to simplify its fare structure. Why are two singles not the same price as one return? Why is there no discount card for regular travellers? Why are there 5-day returns, weekend returns and monthly returns: why not have just a "single" and a "return"?

Strangely enough, for a booking on 15 August, Paris-Amsterdam, I'm getting 94E one way second class. 60E advance booking booking available on some trains. That's through Thalys's own booking site by the way. Through the NL Rail there is a Kid and Co 47E for Ams-Paris which doesn't appear to be available to users of the service in France. Unfortunately I can't find the T&C for that fare nor is my Dutch that great so I'm unwilling to guess what they are. But I'm guessing children are involved somewhere.

So I'm not sure I agree with your generalised statement that it's cheaper to travel from Amsterdam to Paris one way than it is to travel from Dublin to Cork.

On the otherhand, it's far less expensive to get a return from Dublin to Cork than it is from Amsterdam to Paris.

enterprise

Metro is best proved wrong YET AGAIN!

Metrobest

It's definately cheaper when your journey originates in NL

From the NS website:
returns Amsterdam-Paris from €69
one-ways are around €45 (booked a few days in advance)
50% discount on last-minute availability tickets
20% discount for holders of the NS international discount card

There's also frequent 2 for 1 offers, etc.

Bottom line is, it is indeed cheaper to travel one way Amsterdam-Paris than Dublin-Cork. But that's irrelevent. The point is, it's far too expensive to travel Cork-Dublin by train.

MarkoP11

Metrobest wrote:

It's definately cheaper when your journey originates in NL

From the NS website:
returns Amsterdam-Paris from €69
one-ways are around €45 (booked a few days in advance)
50% discount on last-minute availability tickets
20% discount for holders of the NS international discount card

There's also frequent 2 for 1 offers, etc.

Bottom line is, it is indeed cheaper to travel one way Amsterdam-Paris than Dublin-Cork. But that's irrelevent. The point is, it's far too expensive to travel Cork-Dublin by train.

Most people want to come back so who cares about the one way cost

We are not comparing like with like, European railways are massively funded by government in the order of hundreds of millions of euro some in the order of billions, they have capacity they have high quailty infrastructure they may show a profit on paper but they have money poured into them

The journey time is ireleavant the question is it competitive with the other local options, train to Cork is quicker than air a lot less stressful, Dublin Airport is a mess, plus you have to fight your way out by bus or taxi more cost

Remember the regional air routes are heavily subsidised to the order to tens of euro per seat effectively undermining IE, the state company

IE is cheaper on average for turn up and go services, its a market driven business, if you have 0 spare capacity and massive lattent demand you can't offer discounts it just makes a bad situation worse

Metrobest

AFAIK Thalys Amsterdam-Paris is profitable.

As road access improves and Dublin-Cork becomes dual carriageway the whole way, the car will become a more viable option and the train will be less attractive. People should use the train because they want to, not because they have to.

Fair enough, at peak times, a turn-up-and-go fare of €52 is reasonable, in the same way as Thalys fares rise sharply on the day of departure. But you should be able to book a few days in advance, travel off-peak, and get a substantial discount. Full off-peak trains would allow IE cash in on ancillary revenues such as catering, etc.

And it's outrageous that regular travellers do not get a discount.

Calina

Metrobest wrote:

AFAIK Thalys Amsterdam-Paris is profitable.

As road access improves and Dublin-Cork becomes dual carriageway the whole way, the car will become a more viable option and the train will be less attractive. People should use the train because they want to, not because they have to.

Fair enough, at peak times, a turn-up-and-go fare of €52 is reasonable, in the same way as Thalys fares rise sharply on the day of departure. But you should be able to book a few days in advance, travel off-peak, and get a substantial discount. Full off-peak trains would allow IE cash in on ancillary revenues such as catering, etc.

And it's outrageous that regular travellers do not get a discount.

Metrobest,

Thalys is only possible because of a massive - I mean massive - investment on the rail infrastructure in each of the countries concerned. I believe something like a billion and a half euro or so went into the stretch from Bruxelles Midi to the French border, which isn't a huge distance. Additionally, Thalys is co-owned and operated by the SNCF, SNCB, DB and Dutch railways through subsidiaries, all of which require some government support to run the rest of their less profitable network. Also, I would point out that on a point to point scale, there's a difference of magnitude in terms of serving Amsterdam, Brussels and Paris and Cork and Dublin. The population served by Thalys is around ten million plus it links two hugely important centres of international administration which generates business travel exponentially.

The population served by an IR Intercity service - Cork Dublin - is oh, less than two million. Without the same level of international admin travel. Additionally, I think you'll find that between Brussels and Paris there isn't any alternative either. Not even with Ryanair.

As for your fares ideas - I think it's reasonably clear between this thread and several others of a similar leaning that Irish Rail are in the process of trying to do all this, between their ten euro fares last summer and their efforts to get increased capacity on a lot of the lines. Advanced booking and issues surrounding train layout have been dealt with in other threads recently. It's not some thing that "everyone else is doing it, why can't Irish Rail". They're in the process of organising it.

As for the road-improvements between Cork and Dublin, well I'll be waiting. That's not going to be finished overnight either. At least the work is being done and the money is being found.

DadaKopf

Ah the prices for Irish Rail are a joke alright. Me gots a RETURN ticket from Vienna to Bratislava for €14.00 - that's a three hour round trip. And as if that's not comparable, I trained it from Vienna to Prague for €45. A nearly five hour trip in near luxury.

Of course if we had nicer trains and a more efficient, high speed, regular service, we should ditch our cars and actually use public transport - maybe half the reason the prices are high is to cover the running costs?

MarkoP11

We have a lower subsidy and less investment, its a scale game, economies of scale are the key factor with the government refusing to provide rolling stock for 10 solid years, they still refuse to actually increase the intercity fleet size. We just don't have the population to make it profitable, have a look on the TGV in France they run 15+ trains an hour each carrying 600-700 people, oh yeah the europeans pay tolls to use motorways and the distances are vast so rail is very competitive

I'm currently sitting in Austria and despite being in a small city, the rail network is top notch, all electric and the trains are modern and frequent the load factors are quite low

Last summer mid week, just about any intercity destination was 10 euro day return off peak from Dublin its hard to beat that.

Once Dublin Cork goes hourly things will change big time, twice as many seats per day, consistent journey times, and a common fleet of rolling stock. Aer Arainn are going to be in real trouble

Metrobest

Greek trains are awful. They're very similar to Irish trains: slow, infrequent, and run on diesel. However, the showcase train between Athens and Thessolonki is very good. It's fast, it's comfortable, it's efficient. Being a much poorer country, I very much doubt the Greek train company is given a proportionately higher subsidy than Irish Rail. So you can have an efficient rail service without high subsidies, in sparsely populated countries.

High subsides do not mean effiently operated trains, especially when it is a semi state company. I was in France last week and used SNCF regional trains. They were crowded, the organisation was chaotic, the time-keeping poor. In short, it was not a good advertisement for semi-state, high-subsidy railway companies. Give me the part-private NS any time!

murphaph

Metrobest wrote:

High subsides do not mean effiently operated trains, especially when it is a semi state company. I was in France last week and used SNCF regional trains. They were crowded, the organisation was chaotic, the time-keeping poor. In short, it was not a good advertisement for semi-state, high-subsidy railway companies. Give me the part-private NS any time!

Ah yes, the little known fact that once you leave french TGV or commuter type networks the whole thing gets a lot more hit and miss. I would suggest that the Swiss are the model to follow.

Calina

Metrobest wrote:

Being a much poorer country, I very much doubt the Greek train company is given a proportionately higher subsidy than Irish Rail. So you can have an efficient rail service without high subsidies, in sparsely populated countries.

Metrobest,

My head is starting to bleed again from reading this sort of rubbish.

You doubt that Hellenic Railways has a proportionately higher subsidy based on your assessment that Greece is a poorer country than Ireland, therefore it is possible to have an efficient rail service without high subsidies blah blah blah.

If you turn out to be incorrect in your assumption - and let us not forget Greece could afford to spend a considerable sum on the Olympics source which we could not - then your assumption falls to ash. So instead of you telling us you think that as Greece is poorer than Ireland (because I'll just mention Olympic Airways and the subsidies thereto) would you please go and get a link proving that the Athens - Thessaloniki line was built a) without capital investment by any government or municipal authority in Greece and that b) the trains are run without any government subsidy because I am telling you if they can't run an airline out of Greece without it swallowing up a huge amount of subsidies source, I doubt they can run a rail system without government investment and to support that idea I have this:

"Implementation of OSE's development (investments and modernization programmes) is financed by national and community resources. The financial resources are available up to 2006 and therefore no negative consequences are expected to follow the EU enlargement in the short run. Given, however, that the new member states of the EU have serious structural problems, enlargement might have a negative impact regarding the EU inflows of structural funds to Greece in the long run.

Source. OSE incidentally is the rail company in Greece.

netwhizkid

Iarnrod Eireann offer a great service, €52.50 is not bad, if this was privatly run , it'd be closer to €100 I prefer things as they are Iarnrod Eireann staff are friendly and co-operative. Take the bus if you wan't Train travel is a brillant service and if i couldn't afford it i just wouldn't travel simple as that.

woody

Have you tried to fly to cork with air arann as it is about €29.99 methinks.


I personally hate the bus as I get bus sick but if I was only going on a single fare I would put up with the Bus it it saved me nearly €40 odd squid.

IE are totally overpriced and unreliable and as for seating I have stood many a time from Dublin to Cork.

embraer170

Ah yes, the little known fact that once you leave french TGV or commuter type networks the whole thing gets a lot more hit and miss. I would suggest that the Swiss are the model to follow.

Absolutely!

A Dub in Glasgo

€52.50 sounds like a good deal to me for a return ticket Dublin - Cork. I have been travelling Glasgow - Manchester (about 210 miles) return over the last 4 weeks and the average fare is £52.70 (about €78).

dermo88

Agree completely. All the European countries have their showcase TGV, ICE, IC125, Pendolinos, Eurostar Italia services. They look good, fly along, and are reliable. That is because they go between large population centres far larger then Dublin, Belfast or Cork.

In the great scheme of things, Belfast to Dublin to Cork/Limerick is a regional main line as far as the EU is concerned. It does'nt even have enough traffic to warrant electrification.

Irish track quality is absolutely vile by International standards, and thats even AFTER the on-track 2000 project. Its far better than it was before 1999 though, so I'll give them that. But it does'nt take too much maintainance to have a mainline speed of 80mph/130kph with welded track.

As for the comment regarding regional lines. That is so true, especially for France. But go off the main lines in Ireland (Anything other than Dublin - Cork/Limerick/Tralee, Dublin to Galway, and you will be stuck with a 3 times a day service on anything else, and its slower than road. Your stuck with Iarnrod Eireanns schedule, not your own.

Contrast that with the much maligned arrangement in Britain, where even regional trains are frequent, reliable, and if you plan in advance you get great discounts. Travel on the day,......pay a tonne.

Metrobest

Calina wrote:

Metrobest,

My head is starting to bleed again from reading this sort of rubbish.

You doubt that Hellenic Railways has a proportionately higher subsidy based on your assessment that Greece is a poorer country than Ireland, therefore it is possible to have an efficient rail service without high subsidies blah blah blah.

If you turn out to be incorrect in your assumption - and let us not forget Greece could afford to spend a considerable sum on the Olympics source which we could not - then your assumption falls to ash. So instead of you telling us you think that as Greece is poorer than Ireland (because I'll just mention Olympic Airways and the subsidies thereto) would you please go and get a link proving that the Athens - Thessaloniki line was built a) without capital investment by any government or municipal authority in Greece and that b) the trains are run without any government subsidy because I am telling you if they can't run an airline out of Greece without it swallowing up a huge amount of subsidies source, I doubt they can run a rail system without government investment and to support that idea I have this:


Source. OSE incidentally is the rail company in Greece.

Your head bleeds? So does your heart - for Irish Rail!

My Greek is not good enough to trawl the internet looking for data on the levels of subsidies the rail company gets. Greece is poorer than Ireland. If you've journeyed around the country using its disjointed rail network, you'd be aware of that fact.

It's easy to take pot shots at the Greeks but look what they did with the Olympics. They pulled it off. And now they've fantastic stadia and a metro system to boot. Not bad work at all!

John R

woody wrote:

Have you tried to fly to cork with air arann as it is about €29.99 methinks.

Instead of making a wild guess how about checking?

Here's what I found: A random search; this day in two months. Thurs 15 Sep 05.

Cheapest single Dub-Cork: €34.99+€14.43 Fees, Total €49.42
Cheapest single Cork-Dub: €34.99+€19.99 Fees, Total €54.98

Cheapest Return fare: €104.40

Most expensive single Dub-Cork €71.99+€14.43, Total €86.42
Most expensive single Cork-Dub €61.99+€19.99, Total €81.98

Most expensive Return fare €168.84

Makes Irish Rail seem quite a bargain in comparison.
I would rather a train any day to the hoop jumping required for todays air travel.

dowlingm

Toronto-Kingston (2.5hrs) is about E65 (Advance booking), E100 (walk-up economy) and E200 for VIA1 (changeable ticket, food, lounge access, and apparently wireless internet on some trains). Airline type booking so guaranteed seat and steward(esses) to bring food/check tickets. Aer Lingus style pay trolley in Econ.

They have wheelchair accessible seats which you can book on the understanding you have to move if a disabled passenger needs them - the legroom on those ones is stupendous - seats 55/56 if you're ever travelling VIA1

This train actually splits in two (second loco in the middle of the train) after Kingston to go to Ottawa and Montreal - no doubt the safety police in Ireland would do handstands of indignation at the thought but it's quieter than DMUs!