Done for speeding

CiaranC

I just got a summons to appear in court on a speeding offence. Apparently the offence was last November, along the N4, 50mph in a 40mph zone.

What confuses me is the fact that its a summons, and not just automatic penalty points, with the option to go to court to appeal, which i thought was the norm now. There is no mention of points at all.

Can anyone fill me in on whats going on?

vorbis

was last november before the points introduction?

whippet

I believe it depends on the gravity of the offence.

If it is excessive speeding they will summons and the judge can impose additional penalties including suspension of the license.

I suppose 50 in a 40 leaves it open to argument as to how excessive the speeding was.

Seth Brundle

You would need to see if a notice was sent out after the offence.
Are you living at the same address as the registered address of the car? This is where the notice would be sent. As you recieved the summons Im guessing yes.
More than likely you will need to state to the court that you didn't recieve the initial notice and had no chance to pay the fine & accept the points (or appeal the notice) but that you would be willing to do so.
However, Im not sure would you get two or four points.

Seth Brundle

vorbis wrote:

was last november before the points introduction?

Points were introduced in Oct 2003 IIRC

prospect

Was it a bank holiday weekend?
Isn't it an automatic court appearance, and 4 points for bank holiday weekends?

Seth Brundle

prospect wrote:

Was it a bank holiday weekend?
Isn't it an automatic court appearance, and 4 points for bank holiday weekends?

prospect

kbannon,

does mean:
1. I don't Know
2. I don't understand

Borzoi

prospect wrote:

does mean:
1. I don't Know
2. I don't understand

Or

3) Just where did you get the nugget of dubious information

Seth Brundle

It means that Im confused as to why you think speeding on bank holidays warrants a stricter punishment that all other times

a_ominous

I think means WTF? Points don't change depending on the day or time of speeding. Sheesh! :rolleyes:

CiaranC

It was November 19th, so it wasnt a bank holiday weekend. No mention on anything about that on oasis.gov.ie either.

And yes, Ive been living at the same address all along, the same address at which I got the summons, so I should have recieved any penalty points notification sent to me.

Our man in Havana

My mate got a notice for speeding in the same place, 58mph in a 40mph. Just standard 2 points and €80 fine.

You will need to check if a notice was sent out in the first place.

prospect

Woa there now people, keep your WTF's etc, to yourselves.

I seem to remember that as part of one or two bank holiday clamp downs, they threatened to issue 4 points automatically.

But obviuosly due to the 'strong' reactions here, I apologise for seeming to remember this, and offer a potential answer to the OP's question...

J.Daniels

Have you spoken with your wife/partner/gay lover who may have been driving the car at the time ?, and subsequently destroyed the evidence through the mailbox. [/CSi mode]

a_ominous

CiaranC wrote:

I just got a summons to appear in court on a speeding offence. Apparently the offence was last November, along the N4, 50mph in a 40mph zone.

What confuses me is the fact that its a summons, and not just automatic penalty points, with the option to go to court to appeal, which i thought was the norm now. There is no mention of points at all.

Can anyone fill me in on whats going on?

SWMBO received letter for 'speeding' along this stretch of road. Similar thing, 53mph in a 40mph zone. The cop van was parked 10 feet inside the 40 mph zone on inbound side besides Woodies. I told her she should request photo, etc. Would have been good to go to court coz she was doing 53mph in 50mph zone, so she was cited incorrectly and should have been let off on a technicality. The cops were in a bad location; I'd loved to have seen the cops getting an earful from a judge about this.

a_ominous

prospect wrote:

Woa there now people, keep your WTF's etc, to yourselves.

I seem to remember that as part of one or two bank holiday clamp downs, they threatened to issue 4 points automatically.

But obviuosly due to the 'strong' reactions here, I apologise for seeming to remember this, and offer a potential answer to the OP's question...

Ah now prospect, me old sparring partner, don't take it personally! Kiss and make up?? XXX

Boggle

...prospects right. But I'm not sure were they considering this in england or here.

Seeing as your goin to court anyway, why dont you try to defend yourself? Surely there's an open and shut case in regards to the extra 2 points given if you wish to defend yourself?? Your day in court is a contitutional right - not a privilege - and they cannot penalise you for wishing to defend yourself.

Seth Brundle

J.Daniels wrote:

Have you spoken with your wife/partner/gay lover who may have been driving the car at the time ?, and subsequently destroyed the evidence through the mailbox. [/CSi mode]

The notice is sent to the owner of the car as it is easier to do this rather than find out who is in the photo and then send it to them, so my guess is that it is unlikely to be one of the above 3!

prospect

a_ominous wrote:

Ah now prospect, me old sparring partner, don't take it personally! Kiss and make up?? XXX

Hhhmmmmmm,



x

Nuttzz

Boggle wrote:

...Seeing as your goin to court anyway, why dont you try to defend yourself? Surely there's an open and shut case in regards to the extra 2 points given if you wish to defend yourself?? Your day in court is a contitutional right - not a privilege - and they cannot penalise you for wishing to defend yourself.

They dont, I believe its worded in such a way that the offence is automatically 4 points, but if your a good boy/girl and accept liability and pay your fine within 30 days we'll only give you two points. Such is my understanding anyway

Seth Brundle

correct Nuttz but as the OP didn't get the original notice then the judge may allow for a two point deduction

a_ominous

Nuttzz wrote:

They dont, I believe its worded in such a way that the offence is automatically 4 points, but if your a good boy/girl and accept liability and pay your fine within 30 days we'll only give you two points. Such is my understanding anyway

You only get 4 points if you're found _guilty_ in court.
Details here

Seth Brundle

The offence holds 4 points but two are deducted if you save court time by admitting to the offence when you recieve the initial notification - which is what this thread is about - the OP didn't get the initial notification and therefore is sent straight to court!

stratos

The automatic points notification is sent by post.
These are sent in the normal mail, not registered.
Many people have not received the initial mail.
The first thing they know is they get a court summons.
I am speaking from experience, one with a happy outcome thanks to an post

Seth Brundle

stratos wrote:

one with a happy outcome thanks to an post

please elaborate

is_that_so

kbannon wrote:

The offence holds 4 points but two are deducted if you save court time by admitting to the offence when you recieve the initial notification

"If you pay the Fixed Charge Notice inside 56 days a total of 2 penalty points will be entered on your driving licence............. Failure to make a payment will result in a prosecution..... you are liable to a fine not exceeding €1500 and/or 3 months imprisonment ....... and a total of 4 points will be entered on your driving licence record" -Fixed Charge Notice

stratos

In my case I got the summons 2 days before the court date.
The authorities didn't know the summons had been served as it was so late, so the the guard didn't appear.
If I had got the first mail I might have paid up and taken the points.

deevey

OK well first off im VERY careful where speed is concerned and i guess I'm the typical "b0110x in front".... I drive AT the limit at all times and slow before 50kph zones etc..

Anyhoo, on the way onto the Enfield bypass roundabout coming from galway on wednesday morn (about 2am), it goes from 100kph - 60kph, approching the roundabout..as I approached I didnt see the speed signs due to overgrown bushes on BOTH side of the roads..


soon as i saw the signs when i passed them I slowed down to reasonable 55'ish, couldnt slow too quick as an artic was up my ass and might have resulted in a major accident if i slammed on ... as I got nearer the roundabout I saw a squad car and what looked like a camera out the window pointing my direction

On my way back to galway tonight I took these photos unfortunatly probably too close to em (only about 20ft away) and higher than my head in the car seat .. but you can see what I mean, I'v only done the route a few times and dont know it all that well ... how are public supposed to know ???

Heres hoping i dont get points - can this be quashed (if it comes to it) before a count appearance ??

photos below.. you can see how close i was to the sign taking them in the last pic, my car is parked in the hard shoulder.. couldnt get a pic from further back with my crappy cam in darkness but coming at those signs at 100kph it was damn near impossible to tell what they said apart from the "0" so i assumed it was probably 80k coming up to a bypass and i remembered it was 60 after the roundabout

why dont they stick up the big billboard style speed signs they have at the entrance at other towns ?

Our man in Havana

Heres hoping i dont get points - can this be quashed (if it comes to it) before a count appearance ??

Not a hope, they will want their day in court to imtimidate the masses. :mad:

Seth Brundle

Bond-007 wrote:

Not a hope, they will want their day in court to imtimidate the masses. :mad:

at least we don't live in Megacity One -
as Judge Death said

As all crime was committed by the living, Death reasoned, then living itself was a crime. Hence the monster's catchphrase: "The crime is life, the sentence is death!"

Boggle

The offence holds 4 points but two are deducted if you save court time by admitting to the offence when you recieve the initial notification

...and it'll last until the first person contests it. It's just the way of this cowboy govt - they do what they like and they get away with it (for a while) because people are too lazy/sh1tless to defend their rights.

Heres hoping i dont get points - can this be quashed (if it comes to it) before a count appearance ??

If you can prove the signs weren't clearly visible then your in the clear. From what you said your actions were appropriate and no judge in the country (barrin yer man in Mitchelstown!) will do you. Just say exactly what you said there to the judge 'cos it sounds reasonable and well considered.

Nuttzz

Boggle wrote:

...and it'll last until the first person contests it. It's just the way of this cowboy govt - they do what they like and they get away with it (for a while) because people are too lazy/sh1tless to defend their rights.

this is the same in any country with points tbh. cant blame the government for that.

is_that_so

Boggle wrote:

...and it'll last until the first person contests it. It's just the way of this cowboy govt - they do what they like and they get away with it (for a while) because people are too lazy/sh1tless to defend their rights.

I asked a solicitor about this and he concurred. He even went as far as suggesting that there was a degree of unconstitutionality about it. You've already got 2 points against you by the time you get to court - guilt before it is proven. But his comment was "unless you want to make new law ...."

Boggle

You've already got 2 points against you by the time you get to court - guilt before it is proven. But his comment was "unless you want to make new law ...."

My stance would be that your constitutionally allowed to defend yourself in court without fear or repercussion. Costing a repercussion of a guaranteed extra 2 points if you fail to make your case places people in fear of defending themselves.

To me thats your case made.

magpie

at least we don't live in Megacity One -
as Judge Death said

Quote:
As all crime was committed by the living, Death reasoned, then living itself was a crime. Hence the monster's catchphrase: "The crime is life, the sentence is death!"

You cannot kill what does not live!

seamus

Boggle wrote:

My stance would be that your constitutionally allowed to defend yourself in court without fear or repercussion. Costing a repercussion of a guaranteed extra 2 points if you fail to make your case places people in fear of defending themselves.

But if you're innocent, surely you've got nothing to be afraid of by defending yourself. Justice will out, etc.

Boggle

But if you're innocent, surely you've got nothing to be afraid of by defending yourself. Justice will out, etc.

Like my ex's father who got done for speeding once (the actual offender overtook him and was gone by the time the gardai caught up) and was afraid to defend himself cos he wasn't 100% sure he could prove it in court??

Or someone who knows that he is right but is unsure of how to prove it?

You are supposed to be allowed to at least try without worrying that your penalty will now be double if you fail.

deevey

If you can prove the signs weren't clearly visible then your in the clear. From what you said your actions were appropriate and no judge in the country (barrin yer man in Mitchelstown!) will do you. Just say exactly what you said there to the judge 'cos it sounds reasonable and well considered.

Unfortunatly the photos I posted are the only evidence i have if it came to a court situation which shows partial visibility problems from 15-20ft away .... with full headlamps on (which they were not at the time of the incident due to oncoming drivers.

And as you can see not the best visibility when almost on top them .. at 100kph from 50 or so yards at 2am without full heads - invisible.

A quick double check on the right hand side of the road sign to check speed is no good either as it was totally obscured by bushes up till the point of about 20ft away ..

Dunno if they would stand up in court.. only reason I went taking the photos last night was because the thought of getting done for speeding becuase the council dont trim the hedges is a very painful idea for a speed consious driver (and possibly expensive insurance-wise).

and unfortunate its not a better camera, ok in daytime but with the brightness up full whack on a pitch dark night almost usless

stratos

When I was in college we used to go see court cases in the 4 courts.
Saw a few guys using the sign was obscured thing.
The ansewer always was it doesn't matter if the signage was obscured, the driver should be conversant with speed limits around the areas he's driving.
Seemed mad, was a long time ago though.

stratos

I personaly find speeding tickets are like the old slot machines, you win, and then there is a gamble button,take yor prize or throw the dice.
The fines are like that, you can get your ticket pay it, and thats that.
Or you can hit the gamble button and go to court.
I find the further you get away from major cities, the better the gamble button works to your favour.

is_that_so

Slightly off post. I have heard that there are places in canada where instead of handing out speeding fines they write the name and address of the transgressors on those toe tags you see on corpses in a morgue and hand them out. Said to be effective.
Yep I agree with slot machine analogy. 250,000 @ €80 is loadsa money.
Slot machine numbers here

eigrod

I got a notice this morning - 2 months after the offence took place.

Notice is for €80 fine and 2 P.Ps. I was doing almost double the limit, so this must be the norm for any speeding offence, irrespective of how much over the limit one was.

I initially thought the letter was junk mail as it looks very like most of the junk mail I get, so if the original poster is in the habit of throwing out junk mail without opening it, perhaps he did so with the initial notice.

Boggle

Any update on this? When's the case due?

Unfortunatly the photos I posted are the only evidence i have if it came to a court situation which shows partial visibility problems from 15-20ft away .... with full headlamps on (which they were not at the time of the incident due to oncoming drivers.

And as you can see not the best visibility when almost on top them .. at 100kph from 50 or so yards at 2am without full heads - invisible.

Did you refer this to a solicitor for professional advice? I can't guarantee it but if you can put a reasonable case(i.e. impress reasonable doubt) then you should get off but unfortunately some judges are extremely dismissive of speed offences.

Stuff

you gobsheen you should not of been speeding you deserve it fool

Boggle

you gobsheen you should not of been speeding you deserve it fool

*applause* post of the day right there anyway.... Congrats! :rolleyes:

unkel

eigrod wrote:

Notice is for €80 fine and 2 P.Ps. I was doing almost double the limit

100km/h in a 50km/h zone or 240km/h on the motorway?

is_that_so

eigrod wrote:

I got a notice this morning - 2 months after the offence took place.

Notice is for €80 fine and 2 P.Ps. I was doing almost double the limit, so this must be the norm for any speeding offence, irrespective of how much over the limit one was.

I initially thought the letter was junk mail as it looks very like most of the junk mail I get, so if the original poster is in the habit of throwing out junk mail without opening it, perhaps he did so with the initial notice.

6-8 weeks seems to be the norm. For all the dubiousness (IMHO) of the application of the points system, at double the speed limit I think you might be wise not to contest it and take the points. I have heard that in Germany double the speed limit is automatic loss of licence.

deevey

Did you refer this to a solicitor for professional advice? I can't guarantee it but if you can put a reasonable case(i.e. impress reasonable doubt) then you should get off but unfortunately some judges are extremely dismissive of speed offences.

Well seeing as i dont know if i was caught (i just assume i may have been due to the placement of the squad car at the time) I'm not going to persue legal advice as yet .. small matter of cash...

is_that_so

deevey wrote:

Well seeing as i dont know if i was caught (i just assume i may have been due to the placement of the squad car at the time) I'm not going to persue legal advice as yet .. small matter of cash...

I am not sure how well those radar guns work in the dark. Maybe someone knows. From the pics I would say you might have a case- i.e. "I could not see sign and I wasn't sure the roundabout was coming up". If the speed you were caught at was less that previous speed limit of 100 kph then it indicates that you were attempting to slow down.
Clock starts ticking on the day you receive the notice(but hopefully one won't arrive in this case ).
As regards a solicitor I'd would imagine you can have a conversation at the very least about your case without cost(as I posted earlier) to get a legal view on it.


Off post

There is a roundabout off the M1 on the Duleek road that actually INVITES you to speed up from 60 kph to 80 kph 150 metres before the roundabout. Such is the logic of road signs. :rolleyes:

ShockBlast RX8

Stuff wrote:

you gobsheen you should not of been speeding you deserve it fool

I like it Good one indeed those GobSheens