planning permission - Dreaded 10 year clause

patrido

daveg wrote:

It's gone up dramatically since you paid E1300. I understand connection is now between 2-5K. Also I am convinced the entire cost associated with the ESB connecting a home out the country is paid by the connection fee. If you build a house and the nearest transformer is at a max number of connections the new customer has to pay the ESB for a new transformer (approx 15K). As new houses are built and connected to the transformer the owners pay you back a portion of the 15K paid out. This is what our builder told us anyway.

jaysus, if that's the case, depending on where u live, between the fee to the council and the esb you could be paying out 20-30k in charges.

daveg

I could be wrong. I'm only going on what I was told. I'll let you know when we reach that stage.

patrido

yop wrote:

Apologise for my presumptions, I assumed u were someone who lives in a city, drives through the sticks, sees someone building and decides to lodge a complaint or contact An Taisce, which is becoming farsical in my neck of the woods at the moment.

Hehehe, no worries

Do you mind me asking what part of Mayo you're in?

yop wrote:

these kind of things are daft, it they set a rule, stick to it

agreed... i can maybe see the point of trying to define a certain look for an area, but every planner has different ideas, and they all end up contradicting each other. how long before some planner makes eagles on piers, and lit up santas on roofs compulsary

yop

Lads paid 1343 Euro for a 12KVA connection 3 weeks ago. 16KVA is 1800 odd euro

yop

Around the Croagh Patrick area

patrido

yop wrote:

Around the Croagh Patrick area

beautiful! i've spent lots of time on collanmore island in clew bay, with stunning views of croagh patrick.

beats the hell out of a flat piece of land in meath

Brando_ie

Appeal the specific condition to An Bord Plenala. They have the capacity to delete the clause, retain it in its current form or possibly reduce it to the more common 5 years. There is no gaurentee and I would hazzard a guess that the 10 years has been imposed to prevent people 'abusing' the new rural housing guidelines by developing family lands only to sell on shortly afterwards. I imagine the Bord would have identified this and would uphold the condition so as not to open the flood gates. That said, make a good case, spend your €200 and take your chances?. Warning, process can be slow!!

daveg

Brando_ie wrote:

Appeal the specific condition to An Bord Plenala.

I presume if we do this the rest of the planning will remain uneffected? In other words Bord Plenala won't turn around and take planning off us would they? (It's a stupid question but better to be safer than sorry).

yop

Not build there though lad, waaaaaaaaay too expensive for a site, excess of 130k for 1/2 acre.

the_syco

yop wrote:

and decides to lodge a complaint or contact An Taisce, which is becoming farsical in my neck of the woods at the moment.

As bad as the two foreigners in Leitrim, who complain about any buildings, as they want to keep it looking like "old Ireland", when they moved there 20 odd years ago? And I'm even talking about the houses over the hills, which they can't even see!!!

rooferPete

Hi,

I would be very careful about appealing AFAIK the whole planning permission is considered not just one point or condition.

I think the average time for a family to live in one house is 8 years, I must have read that in a trade magazine but it's easy to check with the central statistics office.

lomb it's a long time since anyone could build what and where they wanted 1963 is when the planning act came in, that said I was given a sketch on childs copy book for an extension that had planning permission.

.

lomb

rooferPete wrote:

]that said I was given a sketch on childs copy book for an extension that had planning permission.

.

the good old days:D

Macy

If you claimed in the planning permission local need then I think it's fair enough of the council to put in this clause.

It's people speculating that make it harder for people who want to build on family land and live there for the foreseeable to get planning themselves. However you like to dress it up, it's basically property development and speculation.

I'm pretty anti the planners in this country, and the likes of an taisce that block rural housing - however, I think the 10 year clause is a good thing.

Actually in Wicklow you probably wouldn't get permission so soon for another house anyway.

mrblack

We have an appeal in an Bord Pleanaula at the moment and my understanding of the way that the Board operates is the same as Roofer Pete. Submitting an appeal could result in an unpredictable outcome if the planner decided to look at other aspects of the planning approval-Very risky strategy.

BTW I wonder how such a clause could in reality be enforced. What happens if the occupier loses his job or cannot continue to pay the mortgage. Is there a gnome in the council that actually enforces these clauses-would a buyers solicitor even check this out? They usually just check that the seller has good title and there aren't any outstanding liens/debts secured on the property afaik

mrblack

rooferPete wrote:

Hi,

I would be very careful about appealing AFAIK the whole planning permission is considered not just one point or condition.

I think the average time for a family to live in one house is 8 years, I must have read that in a trade magazine but it's easy to check with the central statistics office.

lomb it's a long time since anyone could build what and where they wanted 1963 is when the planning act came in, that said I was given a sketch on childs copy book for an extension that had planning permission.

.

zep

There is usually a clause which states that the bank/mortage company can sell the house if the owner cannot make their payments. The owner cannot sell the house until the stated time limit has passed. It's not just a matter of selling, the bank/mortage company even has to contact the council to arrange the details. The reason they slapped the 10 years down was probally because they checked for previous planning in your name. Seeing that you got planning within the last 3ish years and were looking for planning again on another site, they wanted to prevent you doing the same thing. It's a pain but thats the way it going now, getting worse aswell...

Doper Than U

This is the kind of Bullsh*t that drives me up the wall. We bought 50 acres in Enniskerry 4 years ago with the intention of living on it, raising a family, having horses and basically having a smallholding. As you can imagine, 50 acres in Enniskerry is a LOT of money. Planning permission is looking more and more like an impossibility, mainly because the CoCo holds the beliefs outlined here :

we all want to live in them, but too many one off houses in the country are a bad thing.

they increase dependence on oil and cars - public transport will never be able to adequately serve them. they put a strain on services such as sewerage, and electricity. ones built in the not too distant past are a key contributor to ground water pollution, and carbon emissions. and they can (and often do) blight the landscape, creating ribbons of development all over the country.

a real nanny state would say that no one could build in the country, and would focus all it's resources into creating urban communities, that were properly served by schools, services and fast, efficient public transport.

instead, the planning laws, and county development plans allow for "local need" and couple this with occupancy clauses. The whole idea of these are to enhance and maintain *existing* rural communities. People who grew up in an area, and continue to have a link to the area are allowed to build in that area, on condition that they make a long term commitment. It allows local people to build-to-live, and not build to rent or sell. And they are flexible enough to allow people to sell in the event of financial hardship, etc.

of course, this is not implemented consistently. councillors and tds pull favours in order to get votes. and the government will relax the requirements over time for the same reason.

you talk about builders buying land, building houses and selling them for profit, well that's exactly what you are doing, albeit on a smaller scale. you make paying off your mortgage early sound like dropping debt to the third world !

Now, most of that is utter crap when applied to my particular situation. First of all, both myself and my partner work from home. That means that currently, I travel to the land twice a day to check the horses burning lots of petrol (it's a big dirty jeep, y'know, the kind that actually drives through mucky fields and tows trailers full of horse or hay.. you know.. those things that come from farming?? Thinking about upgrading to a Touareg too.. nice jeeps those). If I lived there, I would travel less in that locale, and burn less fuel (which happens to be something I care about).

I also wish to build an eco house (which many planners seem to hate.. like "solar power" is a dirty word). That means I'm looking into stuff like geothermal heating, reed beds and solar power, because it really does bother me that people won't take responsibility for their carbon emissions (traffic jams in major cities anyone? what a stink!.. and they want to pile more people into these areas?? <sarcasm> Good idea! </sarcasm> ). On top of that, my desire is to grow my own food, and raise my own animals for slaughter organically (actually, I intend to go better than organic), in an effort to not only eat well, but reduce my dependance on imported food that sullies our atmosphere).

Now.. I think my environmental sensibilities are reasonably well placed. Why should I not live on my land provided I build a house that is in keeping with the countryside?

Because of greater fuel consumption? : Not in my case! In fact you'd get less!
Because I wasn't born there? : Well, how constitutional is that? Rural people can move to Dublin, placing ever greater strain on our public transport system (increasing fuel consumption) and food resources (which are coming more and more from outside Ireland, because farmers are having such a raw deal atm).

Tell you what.. how about farmers /rural people are no longer allowed to sell their land to anyone who isn't from the area? Now how do you think people will feel about that when they no longer want to farm, or when they wish to move somewhere else? That way, land and house prices don't go up, farmland is kept pristine (in fact.. so pristine it'll soon be unusable!), and the farmer can continue getting screwed by Tescos and their insistance on cheap food.

Bottom line, if you can buy the land, you should be able to live on it. Co Co's need perhaps to look at why farmers are so eager to sell their land in small pieces. Hint: Because they get good money for it! If the Council don't want people building one off houses then they should prevent the land being sold to outsiders. That way nobody gets ripped off.

Stuffing more and more people into cities is hardly helpful to either the city or the
country. And where do you think all the food for those cities comes from?? Imported on filthy jets and hauled across the country from farms in massive trucks. Hardly clean or environmentally friendly.


*Sorry for the long post, this particular issue really gets my goat. Good luck to all those honest people who just want planning for a house*

Incidentally, we were looking for a house with land to buy a while ago, as we were close to giving up on the 50 acres. We found a beautiful house in Wicklow and put in an offer, only to be told that we were not allowed to buy it as we were from Dublin, and not local. Utter sh*te.

Cuauhtemoc

his is the kind of Bullsh*t that drives me up the wall. We bought 50 acres in Enniskerry 4 years ago with the intention of living on it, raising a family, having horses and basically having a smallholding. As you can imagine, 50 acres in Enniskerry is a LOT of money. Planning permission is looking more and more like an impossibility, mainly because the CoCo holds the beliefs outlined here :

Well said DTU.

I've often wondered about the legality of having to be from an area to buy there. Someone better informed may be able to tell me. But i thought we had some sort of Constituional freedom of movement or something( i must be wrong though).

I'm from the country originally and want to move back there. Not live in a pokey apartment block or a huge housing estate in a 3 bed semi. There is still more a community feel and(this is just my opinion, no research to support) a better place to bring up kids.

Will be in the same position myself soon as we are looking to move out to the country buy some land, use some green energy etc.
Fortunately i was originally from the area(unless there's a "You haven't lived here in the last 5 years clause" or something).
Best of luck with your house btw.

C.

lomb

Cuauhtemoc wrote:

unless there's a "You haven't lived here in the last 5 years clause" or something).

C.

there is i believe, at the end of the day u are better buying an existing house on land like a farm house if u want that sort of thing. the only real way u will get planning in an area zoned as 'an area of outstanding natural beauty' is if 1. u enhance the ammenity of the land like a horse stud or farm sheep or something and u need proof of involvement in say the bloodstock industry.
2. u *need* to live there-one way u will get it is if u say u need to look after ur parents in their old age if they live on the neighbouring land or u are too poor to live elsewhere or u need to look after the horses on the stud farm u have built several years before.....
3. u are from the area- i think its 7 or 8 years from what i can remember.

ALL 3 of these conditions need fullfillment not just 1, trust me ive looked into it.

u can systematically go about fullfilling those conditions by buying land and a few cheap ponies from the travellers, get planning for a horse stud, become a member of the irish bloodstock foundation or whatever they call it, buy a cheap cottage and live there for the time period,etc etc, but why bother....also they may change the development plan and the criteria.i suppose u may make 2 or 3 hundred grand, in wicklow it would be alot more, but then u have to follow the above steps meticulously if u stand any chance of it and there are easier ways of making money from property. also remember there will be a 10 year clause in it also.....

Doper Than U

Lomb, you are right, those are the "supposed" stipulations. The facts are that I have a number of horses on the land (have had for the last four years). Wicklow CoCo hate horses. They detest people who use the horse excuse for wanting to build a house, so you will seriously damage your chances by playing the "horse" card. Trust me.. I have been refused on these very grounds. The planners actually said that if I wanted to build a barn for my horses (not an outrageous thing to build on a farm one would think), I would have to sign a waiver saying I would never apply for a house, and if I did apply, such an application would be immediately refused. For God's sake, if you're looking for planning in Wicklow, don't mention horses!!

As it happens, we want to have other livestock on the land, which is our only chance for planning. Don't go the sheep route either, as they don't really need buildings to be farmed. Best go with cows or pigs.

Also, you can build a barn without planning if it is to be used for agricultural purposes. Depending on what livestock you want to farm, there are different barn sizes. Horses, ironically, are given one of the smaller sizes (akin to greyhounds I think)... 100 square metres. I think cows are allowed 200 sq m. So this might be one way to go to try and get planning, especially if you might want a barn conversion as a house (not exempt from planning!). Don't count on it as a guarantee though, and I personally won't be doing it, as it'll simply mean spending €40,000 on a barn that I can't really use unless I also get a house there. My barn will go up as soon as I get planning (if ever I do get it).

lomb

Doper Than U wrote:

Lomb, you are right, those are the "supposed" stipulations. The facts are that I have a number of horses on the land (have had for the last four years). Wicklow CoCo hate horses. They detest people who use the horse excuse for wanting to build a house, so you will seriously damage your chances by playing the "horse" card. Trust me.. I have been refused on these very grounds. The planners actually said that if I wanted to build a barn for my horses (not an outrageous thing to build on a farm one would think), I would have to sign a waiver saying I would never apply for a house, and if I did apply, such an application would be immediately refused. For God's sake, if you're looking for planning in Wicklow, don't mention horses!!

As it happens, we want to have other livestock on the land, which is our only chance for planning. Don't go the sheep route either, as they don't really need buildings to be farmed. Best go with cows or pigs.

Also, you can build a barn without planning if it is to be used for agricultural purposes. Depending on what livestock you want to farm, there are different barn sizes. Horses, ironically, are given one of the smaller sizes (akin to greyhounds I think)... 100 square metres. I think cows are allowed 200 sq m. So this might be one way to go to try and get planning, especially if you might want a barn conversion as a house (not exempt from planning!). Don't count on it as a guarantee though, and I personally won't be doing it, as it'll simply mean spending €40,000 on a barn that I can't really use unless I also get a house there. My barn will go up as soon as I get planning (if ever I do get it).

if they are that strict then maybe consider selling the land and buying a existing house on land, could always hold on though maybe they will relax the conditions? its madness in my opinion, its ur land u should b able to do what u want with it. we are obviously living in a socialist country and that has its price...

Doper Than U

We are seriously considering selling it, we're going to give it one last go. Basically, we'll build whatever type of house they want us to as long a I can live there. I'm not looking for a Georgian McMansion or redbrick house, but a decent sized traditional Irish cottage. They really are that strict, and it's getting silly. They've given us a number of "reasons", which include :

"The local roads won't be able to handle the machinery needed to build a house there". This is despite the fact that there is a house on either side of the land (and the road is exactly the same all the way along), as well as us using a massive tractor and trailer, and a huge horse lorry (one or twice a year).

"It ruins the view/local amenity". No, it won't, it will be built hidden behind a wall of trees and cannot be seen from the road.

I agree with you, it's my land, I should be able to do what I want with it (within reason). I'm not looking to build a housing estate, stadium or even a riding school. Just a farmhouse with outbuildings. I'll never be able to afford a house on a similar amount of land in this area. And why should I have to sell a perfectly good piece of land, especially when I'm willing to play by all the rules? I'll build whatever house they want.

Incidentally, for those thinking about building on a plot of land in a rural area, check out the Cork Co Co guide to planning and building a house. It's excellent, tells you exactly what kind of house they want people to build so that it is "in keeping with the land and countryside".

lomb

one of the reasons houses are so dear is that planners are declining planning in cases where it is justifiable like yours, its definately all madness, their plan is too pack a million people in high rise leasehold units in the city close to public transport even though work patterns are changing and many people can work from home....if u hang on for enough years i reakon u will get ur planning, i suppose u dont want to risk a full aplication as if it is declined u may not be able to sell your land for a good price? anyway if u go that route consult a planning expert and if u have a good case like u fullfill the criteria go for it and if it is declined appeal to an bord pleanela. i think getting maximum roof heights and paralax figures is helpful for visual ammenity and to demonstrate no real loss of it. good luck with it anyway

CJhaughey

Doper Than U wrote:

Incidentally, for those thinking about building on a plot of land in a rural area, check out the Cork Co Co guide to planning and building a house. It's excellent, tells you exactly what kind of house they want people to build so that it is "in keeping with the land and countryside".

Yeah this is a nice idea but just one thing, Corkcoco planning office do not pay any attention to this document.
I am speaking from personal experience.
The long and short of it is it is merely a a smokescreen to continue doing what they always have done, prevent people from building in the country.
as long as you build a traditional <8m gable width cottage style building you *may* be OK anything else unless designed by the architects that co-wrote the book, forget about.
what a joke of a system , Planning don't make me laugh.
Oh I am bitter in case you hadn't noticed.

Doper Than U

CJhaughey wrote:

Yeah this is a nice idea but just one thing, Corkcoco planning office do not pay any attention to this document.
I am speaking from personal experience.
The long and short of it is it is merely a a smokescreen to continue doing what they always have done, prevent people from building in the country.
as long as you build a traditional <8m gable width cottage style building you *may* be OK anything else unless designed by the architects that co-wrote the book, forget about.
what a joke of a system , Planning don't make me laugh.
Oh I am bitter in case you hadn't noticed.

*sigh* Why am I not surprised? That's the thing, even if you're willing to play by all the rules, you still get screwed over. It amuses me that they want to keep the countryside for tourists... if that's the case they should buy all the land and turn it into a national park. If they can't afford to buy all that land to keep it "pristine" and beautiful, what makes them think I can??

lomb

basically land is zoned for different uses, like agricultural land is for agri use, residential is for houses, commercial is for business.
this is unfortunately their way of thinking about it. u can erect a load of buildings without any planning that are for agri usage i think, why not do that, then they cannot complain on loss of ammenity for a house.
alternatively can u get planning for a small house and then extend it later?

Doper Than U

Yup, we can do the "build a barn and apply later", but they would be unimpressed with that at best. They've already made it clear that it would have no effect on permission for a house. All I'd be doing is spending more money on land I can't use.

It sounds ridiculous, but they actually expect me to farm the land from a distance. It's the most stupid idea I've ever heard. A few years ago the snow was a couple of feet deep and there was no way we could get to the land. We were lucky in that we had no livestock on the land at that time. Not to mention this actually increases the amount of traffic going there, as all livestock should be checked twice a day.

lomb

CJhaughey wrote:

what a joke of a system , Planning don't make me laugh.
.

could always do what mr mansfield of citywest hotel fame did and not bother applying for any

CJhaughey

Problem is, they will have no problem at all making you knock an unauthorised development.
I have no wish to end up in a Waco style standoff:)

lomb

CJhaughey wrote:

Problem is, they will have no problem at all making you knock an unauthorised development.
I have no wish to end up in a Waco style standoff:)

lol, u can drag it out for a few years b4 the bulldozers are called in though

CJhaughey

Hmm like this guy? :rolleyes: