ID cards on the way?

murphaph

Tony Blair was quizzed about the FTA by an RTE journalist at a news conference yesterday. He asked Blair had his government been in touch with the Irish government wrt. the introduction of similar cards here and what were the implications for the FTA if the UK forges ahead with the ID cards.

I reckon a UK ID card scheme is worthless without a similar scheme here or else the ending of the FTA. How would that go down wrt. the north? I imagine it would be deeply unpopular amongst many cross border travellers and even many who never cross the border.

If there were any moves to create an 'all-Ireland' free travel area I dare say that would cause major problems too, imagine having to produce your UK ID card to visit london from Belfast but visiting Dublin with no such inconvenience. It would be perceived as a UI by the back door etc..

Red Alert

They are dangerous in that people other than the government may misuse them also - your biometric data can't be encrypted so that other countries etc. can make use of it (and should not be for that matter).

If it's unencrypted what's to stop a video store misusing it and demanding that people produce their national ID card?

Moriarty

Video shops already require you to produce proof of identity aswell as a recent utility bill afaik.

I'd have no problems with an ID card system as long as it was properly managed and had adequate security at all points along the chain. Setting up some sort of powerful public-facing identity theft office to assist people who have their identity stolen would also be a good step.

If britain goes ahead with ID cards and Ireland follows it'll also mean we'll finally be able to join the Schengen area.

murphaph

Moriarty wrote:

If britain goes ahead with ID cards and Ireland follows it'll also mean we'll finally be able to join the Schengen area.

I wouldn't be so sure. Britain may well choose to continue protecting it's borders as it does now.

netwhizkid

Why the hell does Ireland need ID cards we have the national Age-card get it its only €6 not up to £300 as the British ones are projected to cost. Plus your personal details won't be sold on. If they bring this in here i will be a disgrace wasting money on something thats not needed. Security, Terrorism what crap this isn't paranoid america for gods sake.

Regards netwhizkid

oscarBravo

netwhizkid wrote:

Plus your personal details won't be sold on.

Under EU Data Protection law, your personal details can't be sold on.

netwhizkid

So the British government by doing this are in breach of EU law in theory ?

Regards netwhizkid

luckat

Our inefficiency will protect us. "That thing, Guard? Sure the horse ate it long ago!"

oscarBravo

netwhizkid wrote:

So the British government by doing this are in breach of EU law in theory ?

They're not doing it, they're talking about doing it. Under Data Protection law, personal data can only be used for the purpose for which it was gathered. That means that personal data gathered for ID purposes may not be sold to businesses without permission from the person.

If HMG do pursue that rather hairbrained idea, it will be interesting to see how they make it work with DP law.

Capt'n Midnight

http://www.no2id.net - we'll need one for ourselves.

Easily_Irritated

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/comrace/identitycards/faq.html

frootfancy

ID cards. An issue where Tony Blair has already forgotten his promise to listen. I was once an advocate of these cards but now i'm totally against them. Mr Blair has extolled the virues of these biometric cards as the potential to eliminate ID theft, terrorism and senility. However that's as good as saying eating cheese turns people into Fergal Sharky. People just know its nonesense.

One of the biggest worries is cost. In March in Jane's Police Review Charles Clarke announced that the scheme will cost £3bn. Financial bods recently have introduced the figure of £19.6bn and Tony refuted the claims with a figure of £5bn. Now this is not a new concept so why don't we know the cost of the scheme. There are plenty of decently paid (and exorberantly pensioned) civil servants to crunch the numbers. The £19/6bn figure would mean around £330 a card, per person. If you have a family of four you're looking at losing your holiday abroad for that year! Of course Tony has moved to say they will cost £100 (70 for biometric passport, 30 for the card). Still you're looking at paying out just under half of the average monthly wage on these things. How will the unemployed pay? (children and OAPs are free). how will low income earners pay? And do we really need another burden on top of our scandalous fuel, road, VAT and national insurance taxes? The answer i'm afraid is no.

On the issue of identity theft it will hold back for a while but will ultimately succumb. Think about it the biometric information held on the card is unique to the person of issue. But to be of use everywhere they are required would have to employ some system of being able to compare the holder with the card. How would this work? It wouldn't. Scanning eyes and reading fingerprints everywhere you go would sure put a dent into the free time of your day. In effect cards stolen, lost etc will simply be doctored like current passports and sent on their way to whatever miscreant wants to use it. On the issue of forgery have you seen the copies being churned out of the new driving license? They are identical even down to watermarks. it wouldn't be long before card forgery became common place.

Terror. Did anyone notice recently that teh Al Qaeda suspects arrested in the UK were British citizens? They can be issued a card for crying out loud!! Its as good as saying garden cane would be sufficient for an lion enclosure fence. Terrorists i'm afraid to say will not be intimidated by a piece of plastic.

I'm tired and there is a danger i'm rambling. But i know one thing for sure. This time the House of Lords needs to do its job and turf out this incredulous and preposterous scheme.

A Dub in Glasgo

I already hold a UK driving licence with photo ID... that will do for me. I will be opposing this ludricous idea. I cannot believe (well maybe I can) that the my local MP voted for this nonense but then again his nose is so far up TB's arse, it is coming out through his mouth (along with all the other lemmings).

Capt'n Midnight

oscarBravo wrote:

Under EU Data Protection law, your personal details can't be sold on.

AFAIK the same restrictions don't apply when you use a biometric passport on a flight to the US. Their airlines may use the info for other stuff.

axtradub12

ID Cards should be introduced here too and soon.

Corben Dallas

muphalp FTA=free trade agreement?

When will ppl get the 'if UK does then its good enough for dear ol Oireland'
NO WAY we should get ID cards and particularly NOT just because Blair gets it for the UK???!!!!!!!

Do we not have enough collective intelligence that Ireland can decide its on fate and govern itself???.........or do we wait for our closest neighbours to try something and then copy them like sheep, copy and paste..... copy and paste

No doubt McDowell is fully for them, which is reason enough to oppose any introduction of ID cards.

Someone said that Blair also wants to charge all UK residents for their own ID card £100/300!!!!! LOL now thats the ultimate insult. "Your all giving up part of your civil liberties/Freedoms or and btw we want u to pay for it as well thx."
NO WAY!!! :mad:

axtradub12

Corben Dallas wrote:

muphalp FTA=free trade agreement?

When will ppl get the 'if UK does then its good enough for dear ol Oireland'
NO WAY we should get ID cards and particularly NOT just because Blair gets it for the UK???!!!!!!!

Do we not have enough collective intelligence that Ireland can decide its on fate and govern itself???.........or do we wait for our closest neighbours to try something and then copy them like sheep, copy and paste..... copy and paste

No doubt McDowell is fully for them, which is reason enough to oppose any introduction of ID cards.

Someone said that Blair also wants to charge all UK residents for their own ID card £100/300!!!!! LOL now thats the ultimate insult. "Your all giving up part of your civil liberties/Freedoms or and btw we want u to pay for it as well thx."
NO WAY!!! :mad:

It should be right across the EU. ID cards for all member states. Denmark & Germany has a long long time.

A Dub in Glasgo

axtradub12 wrote:

It should be right across the EU. ID cards for all member states. Denmark & Germany has a long long time.

so tell me, why should I pay for the privilege of an ID card? I have a passport and a photo ID driving license (that needs a passport to get anyway)??????????

axtradub12

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

so tell me, why should I pay for the privilege of an ID card? I have a passport and a photo ID driving license (that needs a passport to get anyway)??????????

One should not have to pay for this service. But many people do not process any passports or driving licences.

county

its going to come in one day sooner or later,its the way the world is going,but if it was free what would be you opinon

A Dub in Glasgo

Paying for this service is a guarantee, why should I have ot do it?
I have sufficient proof of identity. This is a ludricous scheme.

Capt'n Midnight

How much does it cost to chip a guard dog ?

It would be much cheaper to just pop one in the back of all our necks, radio scanning means you just walk though barriers. You can't loose it or forget. And the police arrest anyone who doesn't have one.

I'm still suprised that one of the south eastern asian countries hasn't done this yet.

axtradub12

I'm all for the ID cards. Then we will know how many Irish citizens are in the country. Also, it will help stop illegals entering Ireland.

county

good point on the illegals,but irish passports will show irish citizens living in ireland

AmenToThat

The only way they will make me carry an ID card is if they (who ever introduces and enforces ID cards) have me at the wrong end of the barrall of a gun and follow me around 24/7.
Its that simple.

dermo88

South East Asia certainly has them, in Thailand, Malaysia and Singapore. They are an accepted part of life there. At 13, your thumbprint is taken and held on a police database. But they do not abuse it there. There are few problems with the police in Singapore, since they are well paid, polite, everyone knows their place, and the place functions like clockwork. Noone farts crooked because of the consequences. Thats the way it should be.

No heroin addicts waiting to nab you at the ATM. No fighting in the middle of Orchard Road (O'Connell Street), its nice, civilised and well run, if a little boring.

Who is going to do anything, and rob a Granny knowing damn well, in the boys gom, got forensics, and within 6 hours,.......Ah, Murphy, your nabbed.

Or that scumbag Heroin addict who held me up at the bookies I worked at, only to come back and make subtle hints against me when he was on remand.

It expediates fast justice. Those that mind their own business, play by the rules, are left alone. Only those who play by the rules are getting screwed.

I can only point to the words of Lee Kwan Yew, the founding father of Singapore. A right wing, genius, who built a nation, was a shrewd, manipulative, motivated, yet honest and scupulously clean bastard.

"A Fair state, not a welfare state"

ID cards have been there from the word go. To deal with Communists, and the likes of the equivalent of the IRA who only serve to obstruct the growth of a nation.

But make it explicitly clear that this information must NOT be held for Health purposes. For insurance purposes, or any purpose that jeopardises the financial, psychological or physical welfare of the individual.

The personal freedom aspect does concern me. European countries intrude into peoples personal lives to a much greater degree than elsewhere. The UK in particular. I think its a sick and disgusting society that advertises on Television that they have every address on a database in order to extort £121.00 per annum, rising every year from them.

Thats for starters. Because when it comes down to it, I have only one conclusion to draw on Government and state bodies. They interfere where they are'nt wanted, and resort to that traditional socialist solution.

We want more money. We need more money for X, Y and Z. We know you are working, we know how much you are earning, so we know we can screw you, because you can afford it. You know, we really need to improve this country, and award a few fancy contracts to our buddies who we met at the Galway races, and Leopardstown (The Construction Industry Federation of Ireland), oh, and their boyfriends in the Unions (Slipthru), and IBEC (Irish Bollox and Extortionates Convention. No mention of the ordinary worker in Dunnes Stores/Xtravision/, the part time barman or waitress holding down a second job. No mention of the non-unionised worker in the call centre. No mention of those travelling 3 hours a day in order to get to work. All forgotten.....they do not exist, for they do not have enough. These are the real people in a country.

By the time its done, there is not enough money, and they start moaning.

"We need more money. Heres another 50 cent on the packet of Fags, 5 Euro on a bottle of Jack Daniels (because a bunch of teenagers are guzzling too much), 20 cent on the pint. Oh, yeah, 50 Euro on the TV license, they have'nt had an increase since 1991. Oh lets not forget CIE, Luas, ESB........."

They (The Government) are like a packet of condoms.

They protect a bunch of pricks, and make you feel protected while you are being screwed.

Its slow but sure, but more obvious in the UK than in the Republic of Ireland, where we don't have the likes of council tax and water rates.

Water rates being given to private companies. Imagine paying them, and hoping for bad weather and rain 300 days of the year in order to have lower bills.

And when the shortages do happen, they claim they need to increase the bills....again.

What the **** were they doing with the money that we were paying them in the first place. Oh.........paying their bosses and shareholders.

And this is compulsory.

Get stuffed.

Same with council tax. Way too high, and being abused as a replacement for income tax, because (Blair) promised not to increase income tax. Not that Blair is the worst in the world. Hes doing a fair job of things.

The most expensive city in Europe is London. I wonder why.

Yep, thank you the Government..........Your paying £2,000 a year for your house to the Government to have your bins collected.

So I have absolutely no trust in what the Government says, Tory or Labour, but I distrust the Tories more since they just borrow money, and say "let the good times roll", cut taxes, and when it all goes pear shaped, leave Labour to clean up the mess.

Remember, it will be easy to extort money from you when they have all your details. You need only look at the failures of France, Germany and Italy to see Government interference in action, and the mentality is.

"Why bother working when I earn the same on the dole as I do after tax on Minimum wage". I've got 4 kids to support. Plus I get my health care free, my rent is paid for or subsidised, I might struggle for the last 9 days of the calender month, but so does my neighbour who works and pays their taxes.

And I don't blame anyone for saying that. I understand it fully.

So leave working people alone. Give incentives to work. No stealth cute hoor taxes driving us into the ground and shocking us when we see them. Thats the way it used to be before. What went wrong guys????

This was the Irish malaise before the 1990's economic boom. It was hard to get work, no doubt about that, but thats because of crippling taxes, and over regulation.

This kept our nation from progressing, along with a perception that our Government was pathologically corrupt and dishonest. I don't like them now, but they are a huge improvement over the likes of Haughey. Plus, with the likes of the PD's to keep them in check, its functioning well enough. Even Michael Mc Dowell, who might seem reactionary and hardline, but is motivated and doing a damn good job. Even if he is not infallible.

But, I will not be surprised when I am an old man when I hear of some dodgy property deals in Drumcondra. I'll be in my 70's, and after respecting Bertie Ahern, I'll find that he was dirtier than Haughey.

Corben Dallas

Malaysia is a poor examlpe of How ID cards are a good idea, sure no one farts crocked becase they live in a police state, that has a Right wing govn.

The cops there can pretty much do what they like there, and the man in the street has no way to complain(well he could but they would just beat him up s'more.)

Nobody wants to live in a Police state.
Remember the catchphase kids...." Your papers please, Danke"

frootfancy

"The only way they will make me carry an ID card is if they (who ever introduces and enforces ID cards) have me at the wrong end of the barrall of a gun and follow me around 24/7."

funny thing is it won't be a legal necessity to carry them. So in the long run it's hard to understand how they will be workable.Do you give someone a producer to bring them to a police station in seven days?

Tony Blair posted three points on why we need them. The fact that he's propsed no evidence to support these three points shows that we don't.

dermo88

You are speaking about Malaysia from an outside perspective, describing it as a right wing dictatorship. You've read about it. But have you visited it, or even more importantly, lived there as I have?

I speak with experience. I worked there for 1 year 10 months, and feel that after that time, I am qualified to say that its not as severe as anyone thinks.

Malaysia had everything we had here in Ireland, and more besides. Illegal, but illegal with a unique kind of blind eyeness turned where it was needed.

If you wanted smuggled booze from Thailand or Langkawi, no problem lah.
You want a gay porn DVD. No problem lah.
You want the latest Hollywood releases BEFORE they come out in the cinema. No problem.
You can drink and drive. Just leave a M$100.00 note accidentally in your passport if you are drinking and driving (very stupid to do that though on Malaysian roads, their drivers are a bit mad)

. What was harmful to society was dealt with quickly, efficiently and harshly. Thats the way it should be, and no bollox about human rights. Get the cattle prods at them, they'll think twice aout doing it.

If you wanted a spliff, you could have one provided you did it discreetly.
You can get a drink no problem.

Overall, I felt safer on the streets of Kuala Lumpur than I ever did in Dublin. This is in a "Third World" country.

The country did have its problems, as any developing nation always will. But, overall, it ran well.

If thats the case, I want ID cards NOW. I want my fingerprints on a database NOW. I want respect for law and order NOW.

And I want the skangers dealing, shooting up heroin, bullying, making hell of their neighbourhoods sent to the outer reaches of the Aran Islands, surrounded by members of the Armed forces with Cattle Prods and hot pokers.

Corben Dallas

Never been there, but read up on the country and know someone whos from there now living in Ireland.

Its a hard line regime, that has a questionable Human rights record. It has compulsory Military Service for all residents. Its a progressive tiger ecomony thats going to prob rival South Korea, China, Hong Kong etc ecomonically.

But its a police state and any form of Public Protest is put down by a almost military police.

Ireland is NOT a third world country, neither is Malaysia,> they had a Grand Prix!! dont hold yur breath for that to ever happen in Ireland.

ID cards would not suddenly make Ireland's skangers/scumbags dissapear they'd just be skangers with ID cards. and we would have given up a major Civil Liberty for nothing.

frootfancy

"ID cards would not suddenly make Ireland Skangers/Scumbags dissapear they'd just be skangers with ID cards. and we would have given up a major Civil Liberty for nothing."

My point exactly. Blair is peddling the terrorism angle here. In the same instance these people would just be terrorists with ID cards. It won't stop them scheming and plotting.

dermo88

Compulsory Military Service might not be a bad idea to teach people discipline, hardship, hard work, and make people more patriotic.

It might well make for stronger communities, forge a sense of purpose, and unity.

I think you are getting mixed up between Singapore and Malaysia. Singapore has compulsory military service, Malaysia has only recently instroduced it. But the Malaysian version lasts three months. Singapores lasts two years. I would have no problems with it, providing it was supervised properly.

Cojofl

I already have discipline and a work ethic. I don't need to be forced against my will to join a military to develop them further. What about the huge costs of complusory military service?

And why is patriotism such a great thing? http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/Goldman/Writings/Anarchism/patriotism.html

bonkey

Corben Dallas wrote:

It has compulsory Military Service for all residents.

All? Including women?

Progressive.

jc