Jj V Bjj

Naos

Right..

Can anyone tell me the difference between JJ and BJJ please?

I've looked all over the net and have so far failed to find a difference in training methods.

Is there really any?

Kevin_rc_ie

When people say JJ, I immediately think of TJJ, which to me, conjurs up images of a karate type MA with a typical Karate type training method. (maybe standing around practicing strikes, punching air, practicing throws in a kinda kata way)

When I think of BJJ I think of soething more a kin to judo with training methods similar to judo. (rolling around the ground training to execute submission holds).

dent

Kevin_rc_ie wrote:

When people say JJ, I immediately think of TJJ, which to me, conjurs up images of a karate type MA with a typical Karate type training method. (maybe standing around practicing strikes, punching air, practicing throws in a kinda kata way)

Could not be further from the truth. Its nothing like Karate at all. There are no kata's bar sword ones (Which makes sense really). We cover the three ranges and train with all manner of weapons.

Training would generally consist of being showen a technique then pairing off and trying the technique and adjusting it to your needs. It doesn't have to be pretty it just has to work. The class would then end with some sparring to test the techniques.

We never punch air. If we are drilling strikes its on pads or in sparring.

I find http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jujutsu to be a great source for these kinds of things.

BJJ is an adapted version of Jujutsu created by the Gracie family. I haven't trained in BJJ so I'll let one of the other lads comment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BJJ

john kavanagh

do you guys grapple to submission? if yes, can you post training times, venue etc thanks and apologies if you've already done this

dent

john kavanagh wrote:

do you guys grapple to submission? if yes, can you post training times, venue etc thanks and apologies if you've already done this

Yup on Friday nights at 7-9

Directions can be found here http://www.jujutsu.8m.com/directions.htm

Depends what they are up to on the night but there are several lads who enjoy there ground work

I'd contact Richard his details should be on the website for more info.

Kevin_rc_ie

well i'm sure like all these loosly regulated martial arts there is a vast difference in what one does in one particular JJ gym then in another. Anyway, I stand corrected, the JJ i saw, which i think they were calling sports jujitsu looked like shotokan with some throws.

i do neither.

Naos

I do JiuJitsu.

As with Dent we do none of that kata crap.
All training is against resistance. All sparing is against resistance.

Dent I've actually been looking at that wiki this morning, and thats why I started this thread. I always hear this crap that BJJ is far better. But ive noticed absolutely no differences upon reading up on it.

dent

Mear wrote:

Dent I've actually been looking at that wiki this morning, and thats why I started this thread. I always hear this crap that BJJ is far better. But ive noticed absolutely no differences upon reading up on it.

Well I think BJJ has stream lined certain techniques. I do find some Jujutsu techniques to be over complicated. But as I said earlier you are free to adapt them.

Its hard to tell the difference as I haven't done BJJ. I have a rubbish ground game so its something I'm going to have to look into.

Tim_Murphy

I always hear this crap that BJJ is far better. But ive noticed absolutely no differences upon reading up on it.

Maybe you should give it a try instead of reading up on it. Just an idea

pearsquasher

I must say that that was an excellent wikipedia article on jujutsu there - it ties in very well with how we train in the Bujinkan (although we use the term "taijutsu", not jujutsu - semantics really).

Thanks fot thelink

Mear

Mear wrote:

Right..

Can anyone tell me the difference between JJ and BJJ please?

I've looked all over the net and have so far failed to find a difference in training methods.

Is there really any?

Kevin is right. The majority of Jiu Jitsu schools train in a very traditional non functional method similar to karate schools.

I'd need to actually train at a jiu jitsu school like yours to know whether its training methods are functional or not. You'll have to pardon my cynicism.

dent

columok wrote:

Kevin is right. The majority of Jiu Jitsu schools train in a very traditional non functional method similar to karate schools.

I'd need to actually train at a jiu jitsu school like yours to know whether its training methods are functional or not. You'll have to pardon my cynicism.

I've never come across a Jujutsu school that teach in non functional method similar to karate schools. Now that's only three clubs mind you.

What Jujutsu clubs did you train in?

Name and shame maybe

Naos

columok wrote:

Kevin is right. The majority of Jiu Jitsu schools train in a very traditional non functional method similar to karate schools.

I'd need to actually train at a jiu jitsu school like yours to know whether its training methods are functional or not. You'll have to pardon my cynicism.

Colum, Did you have a read of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jujutsu ?

The majority of JJ schools, which ones exactly? And how is JJ trained in a non functional method? Do not mean to sound offensive here, simply curious.

I'm not gonna start naming names. Buuut Ive seen a good few people from jiu-jitsu schools claim to train with full resistance before and then not be able to bring it in alive sparring. As always however I'm open to correction.

Most jiu jitsu Ive seen trains similar to aikido but just does everything "harder" so people hurt more. They may have a tiny amount of functional clinch but they'll still get schooled by an average judoka. They often have nice looking rolling armbars that look sweet on a non-resisting opponent but the minute that papa-resistance is in the house...?

Dyr

pearsquasher wrote:

I must say that that was an excellent wikipedia article on jujutsu there - it ties in very well with how we train in the Bujinkan (although we use the term "taijutsu", not jujutsu - semantics really).

Thanks fot thelink

yeah, its so good that whoever posted it on wikipedia omitted tomention that most of its copyrighted material thats been nicked from an article Meik Skoss authored. Classy :mad:

vasch_ro

columok wrote:

Kevin is right. The majority of Jiu Jitsu schools train in a very traditional non functional method similar to karate schools.

.

I assume this can be backed up with empirical evidence ?
Can we all see the results of the survey you are referring to please ?

pearsquasher

.. that is a bit "not on" alright but Skoss seesm to be a well regarded TMAer so the original source seems to be a good one

John my man I can tell you of the peeps I trained with and the schools theyre from next time I see you. You know some of them yourself.

You can also see for yourself by visiting a JJ school near you.

Dyr

columok wrote:

I'm not gonna start naming names. Buuut Ive seen a good few people from jiu-jitsu schools claim to train with full resistance before and then not be able to bring it in alive sparring. As always however I'm open to correction.

Most jiu jitsu Ive seen trains similar to aikido but just does everything "harder" so people hurt more. They may have a tiny amount of functional clinch but they'll still get schooled by an average judoka. They often have nice looking rolling armbars that look sweet on a non-resisting opponent but the minute that papa-resistance is in the house...?

Speaking as someone who trained JJ before the whole MMA craze kicked in over here, I'd say yes and no. Most schools do NOT train that way in any consistent manner that is integrated to the main thrust of training. Certainly not enough to worry someone from an MMA background. There are exceptions however and i can understand why they tend to be amused at some MMA dudes who claim to have invented the wheel, so to speak, in that regard.

Naos

Okay Colum. As I've only trained in 1 JJ school, I cant speak for them all. I am sure there is some places where they dont go full resistance. However, as you said about being schooled by a Judoka. Our lads enter Judo competitions, and are consistently in the top 3 ..

Dyr

pearsquasher wrote:

.. that is a bit "not on" alright but Skoss seesm to be a well regarded TMAer so the original source seems to be a good one

he he you might'nt call the dude "well regarded" if you read his opinions on the bujinkan, doesnt seem to be to world biggest fan of all things ninja

john kavanagh

thanks dent, i've already been out there a few times - say hello to richard for me:)

dent

john kavanagh wrote:

thanks dent, i've already been out there a few times - say hello to richard for me:)

No Problem, I'll say hello for you

breadmonkey

I knew one guy (I'm aware that it's only one guy so I can't generalise) who came down to train in UCD. He had previously done trad jj and thought he would probably be able to hold his own. He got destroyed, and said that BJJ was quite different to what he was used to.

EPO_MAN

breadmonkey wrote:

I knew one guy (I'm aware that it's only one guy so I can't generalise) who came down to train in UCD. He had previously done trad jj and thought he would probably be able to hold his own. He got destroyed, and said that BJJ was quite different to what he was used to.

And rightly so!! cos they're two different styles.

Kevin_rc_ie

Mear wrote:

Okay Colum. As I've only trained in 1 JJ school, I cant speak for them all. I am sure there is some places where they dont go full resistance. However, as you said about being schooled by a Judoka. Our lads enter Judo competitions, and are consistently in the top 3 ..

mear i've read a lot of your posts and they're mostly intelligent and accurate but i have to say that this is complete bs unless you can point me to a results sheet with guys you know are 100% JJ.

My reasoning is, the majority of judo is won by throws. And JJ ppl, regardless of their ground techniques, imo, can't throw properly.

It comes from the simple fact, you can't do proper judo if you're trying to defend hand strikes. and if you take a high guard and go on the judo mat, you're going on your ass. Prove me wrong.

Dyr

one of the JJ instructors i trained with used to enter his lads in competition and they usually did very well. He was a judo bb too, but most the students were'nt "proper" judo back then.

Kevin_rc_ie

afaik the irish judo association site has results for the Irish Closed and Irish Open competition. It lists 1st,2nd and 3rd,3rd. Pick a few JJ guys out for me.

Dyr

only name i remember from 5+ years back:

Men Under 66 Kgs
1 Luke Corcoran Coolmine

:rolleyes:

Kevin_rc_ie

i was training with him today. he doesn't train in JJ much. his da is a instructer. he trains full time in judo. 5 years ago, it would have been something similar. he's very good. i'd like to seem him fight colm o'r.

Dyr

Kevin_rc_ie wrote:

i was training with him today. he doesn't train in JJ much. his da is a instructer. he trains full time in judo. 5 years ago, it would have been something similar. he's very good. i'd like to seem him fight colm o'r.

Its been easily five years since i trained with eddie and when Luke was starting out in competition he was training with him primarily, if you're training with him you can clarify that i'm sure. Not at all suprised he's totally into Judo these days which is why i said they werent "proper" judo back then. So is anything ive posted inaccurate or am I free to go?

Kevin_rc_ie

for the record i assume lc won the under 16 something u66. yes you can go, but not before i kill you, take that. i'm not asking him, jeez, i can't beleive i'm talking about him on the internet.

Dyr

I'll tell his da and he'll come after ye :b

Naos

Hehehe.. Coolmine is my club. As for Luke hes brilliant and top bloke.
Most of the JJ lads that do the Judo Comps also train in Judo. But JJ was their main art, So yeah i misled you on information kev.
Also upon a bit of research I realise my mistake.Take back what I said about competition part.

Post is very rushed, flying out the door, have an exam in 50mins and then going to Gran Canaria Appreciated if not mentioned to LC hehehe

Cya guys, talk to ye in 2 weeks, good luck and have fun those who are entering/going to ROT3.

Mear

dent

Kevin_rc_ie wrote:

My reasoning is, the majority of judo is won by throws. And JJ ppl, regardless of their ground techniques, imo, can't throw properly.

You do know Judo is a softer version of Jujutsu. In fact because there are strikes and armbars and continued fighting on the ground its a lot more effective. Judo versions of Jujutsu throws are not designed to break arms. In fact its my opinion that any Judo player should visit a JJ club to learn the correct versions of these throws.

Kev

How do you train these throws without breaking peoples arms

dent

Kev wrote:

How do you train these throws without breaking peoples arms

With great care Mainly by not following through on the break. Like you'd practise most arm bars. If your sparring either twist off so you don't break it or release the arm. The entry points are the same as is the movement you just protect the arm a little more. Either way you still throw your oppoent they just don't come out with a broken arm on the other side.

Dyr

dent wrote:

You do know Judo is a softer version of Jujutsu. In fact because there are strikes and armbars and continued fighting on the ground its a lot more effective. Judo versions of Jujutsu throws are not designed to break arms. In fact its my opinion that any Judo player should visit a JJ club to learn the correct versions of these throws.

Might want to review the use of the words "softer" and "correct" in that sentence.

The entry points are the same as is the movement you just protect the arm a little more. Either way you still throw your oppoent they just don't come out with a broken arm on the other side.

Dent,

hang on a sec there. We'll use the armbar example. A judo player or BJJ player applies an armbar to cause sufficient pain (and the threat of a break) to cause a tap. If the armbar was followed through the arm would be broken. Come to a BJJ class or Judo class if you doubt this. How can Jiu Jitsu people practice this the "right way"? So surely to get good at breaking people's arms you have to get good at applying armbars as far as is safely possible namely BJJ or Judo competition?

Have you ever broken somebody's arm with one of your throws? How do you know that they work?

dent

columok wrote:

Dent,
hang on a sec there. We'll use the armbar example. A judo player or BJJ player applies an armbar to cause sufficient pain (and the threat of a break) to cause a tap. If the armbar was followed through the arm would be broken. Come to a BJJ class or Judo class if you doubt this.

OK I think your rushing into this. I used the armbar as an example on how you can practice breaks without actually breaking an arm. Never ever said you can't break an arm with an arm bar.

columok wrote:

How can Jiu Jitsu people practice this the "right way"? So surely to get good at breaking people's arms you have to get good at applying armbars as far as is safely possible namely BJJ or Judo competition?

In my post I'm referring to throws. Judo has many throws that originate from Jujutsu. These throws took out the arm breaking application for tournament purposes. Ippon would be a nice example.(Hard to descibe in words but I'll do my best) Instead of folding the arm over the shoulder you arm bar it over the shoulder instead and then perform the throw.

I'm refering to throws and defending agains't the "JJ don't know how to throw"
statement.

columok wrote:

Have you ever broken somebody's arm with one of your throws? How do you know that they work?

Same way you know an armbar would.

Yeah but you practice applying an armbar against a fully resisting opponent. How can you practice a joint throw against a fully resisting opponent? Do you practice joint throws against full resistance?


I know the joint throws you're talking about. I've never seen one in MMA competition though most rules allow them. I believe that any of those throws can be negated by a month or two training in wrestling, judo or BJJ. You couldnt possibly develop the skills required to do throws like that without full resistance training.

Clive

If only everybody would enter the Irish BJJ open later in the year, all these questions could be answered.

Pretty fair rules for any gi grappler, IMO.

dent

columok wrote:

Yeah but you practice applying an armbar against a fully resisting opponent. How can you practice a joint throw against a fully resisting opponent? Do you practice joint throws against full resistance?

Your right it is quite tricky and you have to be very trusting of the guy your sparring against. You bring it to the point just before the throw (So pressure is applied) and stop or adjust the arm so it folds. This can often result in you being counter thrown however

columok wrote:

I know the joint throws you're talking about. I've never seen one in MMA competition though most rules allow them.
I believe that any of those throws can be negated by a month or two training in wrestling, judo or BJJ. You couldnt possibly develop the skills required to do throws like that without full resistance training.

That may be the case. But I think that can be said for Judo too. The throws are so similar that many defenses against one should work for the other. Don't see many Ippons in UFC

I'm not talking about BJJ at all here just defending Jujutsu's stance Vs Judo.

columok wrote:

You couldnt possibly develop the skills required to do throws like that without full resistance training.

I think some of the simple ones are definantly workable. Wouldn't take much for a seasoned BJJ player to pull one of. Delivery method is the same just changing the applicaiton a bit. Kinda like a thai boxer being able to punch you in the troat pretty handly.

Maybe John or Colm or yourself could answer on the whole breaking an arm in competition theme. Is there an unwritten rule that you don't or is it just that most situations allow for the guy to tap out.

TwoKingMick

I think your underestimating just how tough the human body is. It takes a lot of pressure to break an arm, not just a nice quick pop. Sure if the guy is letting you twist his arm it'll pop pretty quick, but if hes using his bloody muscles to stop you it aint gonna happen.

dent

TwoKingMick wrote:

I think your underestimating just how tough the human body is. It takes a lot of pressure to break an arm, not just a nice quick pop. Sure if the guy is letting you twist his arm it'll pop pretty quick, but if hes using his bloody muscles to stop you it aint gonna happen.

So do you think people tap out from arm bars because of the pain or the thought that it might pop :eek:

Kevin_rc_ie

dent wrote:

OK I think your rushing into this. I used the armbar as an example on how you can practice breaks without actually breaking an arm. Never ever said you can't break an arm with an arm bar.



In my post I'm referring to throws. Judo has many throws that originate from Jujutsu. These throws took out the arm breaking application for tournament purposes. Ippon would be a nice example.(Hard to descibe in words but I'll do my best) Instead of folding the arm over the shoulder you arm bar it over the shoulder instead and then perform the throw.

I'm refering to throws and defending agains't the "JJ don't know how to throw"
statement.



Same way you know an armbar would.

judo being a softer version of jj. roffle.

anyway, i think you're refering to the throw seoi-nage.


afaik, the arm comes across like this, not to stop the guy from breaking his arm, but from stopping him from grabing your neck. if he just loops around your neck, he'll still go over, but you'll end up hurt. also it may be to stop the guy from sticking his paw out as he goes over to "stop" the throw as this will break his arm. also there's lots of other reasons to do but i'm not a technican so i can't explain properly.

concerning big judo throws seen in pride/ufc. imo, throws on anything but concrete are bit of a waste of time for inflicting damage on a dude. unless you really do an assume throw and manange to fall on top of him, a simple break fall executiong and the usual bouncy surface of fight arenas cause minimal damage.

anyway, i think you're proving my point, you practice your throws in a very slow clock works manner, stopping before you go to far, but we just do our "softer throws" properly and become better executioners of them. anyway, judo players are better at throwing then jj players, it's that simple.

Clive wrote:

If only everybody would enter the Irish BJJ open later in the year, all these questions could be answered.

won't really answer the can he throw or not question.

Dyr

Dent, if you can, train some Judo. You'll benefit from it. While Judo lost a lot of cool techniques to ensure safety in competition it also refined and *gasp* improved a lot of throws. Kevins given you one example of details you dont see in JJ classes. Others are things are like that funky *old school* straight leg that JJ schools use in tai otoshi, it took a judo guy to point out to me what would happen if somone collapsed onto that locked out knee joint :eek:

regarding the whole "too dangerous for competition debate", I'm suprised people are denying that sports do exclude a lot of stuff as its just too much of a risk for competitors. The sad thing is that valid techniques then fade away because of that. Just take a look at the huge canon of groundwork that BJJ has that judo also had originally but lost once it was banned from competition.

theres a good article on this whole dynamic here but its kinda long to read down through for the relevant sections.

EPO_MAN

columok wrote:

I've never seen one in MMA competition though most rules allow them. I believe that any of those throws can be negated by a month or two training in wrestling, judo or BJJ. You couldnt possibly develop the skills required to do throws like that without full resistance training.

sh*it have I wasted the past 5 years????
balls I'm fu*cked now

colm please let it not be so? please!

EPO_MAN

columok wrote:

I know the joint throws you're talking about. I've never seen one in MMA competition though most rules allow them.

dunno what you mean about joint throws? but trad jujusu hip throw .
Steve Jenner (UFC 3 winner), incidently a ninjitus guy against boxer in UFC4.
Hip threw him.

OK OK OK ...the boxer was crap dragged up from hickville but you did say you never seen it.

Ive seen hip throws used by the likes of Karo Parisian and also by wrestlers from the double underhooks position. Theyre prevalent in Judo competition.

I was talking about joint lock throws.

TwoKingMick

EPO_MAN wrote:

sh*it have I wasted the past 5 years????
balls I'm fu*cked now

colm please let it not be so? please!

Yes