Gardai uncover Racists gun cache

Flattop 15

Todays Sunday Independant.
www.unison.ie
GREAT!!! Just what we flippin need,this close to the CJB!!
25 airsofts and a deact Browning GPMG mounted on a tripod[thought that would be a Browning 50 cal??] found in a house of a bunch of wannabe stormtroopers in Crumlin.Bunch of feckin muppetts!!!Going around in cammo for three weekends catching the BUS to Donegal!!!

Think this kind of proved my point about what kind of people are attracted to and use airsoft.Apart from the article having some as per usual crap journalism linkage of airsoft to the kid who got shot in NI by a 22 rifle as well as to all the other ills that have occured over the last few years of airsoft misuse.
Not only that we now have the attempted linkage of"survivalism" with the right wing nazi groups in the US.
Get ready to dust off all the old eighties arguements from the antis that were used in the UK[to devestating effect post Hungerford] and the US about all the spurious linkage between guns,nazis,and survivalism.[survivalism has nothing to do with right wing para militaristic groups btw.It is a nifty catch all for the media for things they cant understand or explain.Like lumping all bikers in as bad ass Hells Angels type bikers.[Although any of the GENUINE color wearing Hells Angles I have ever met are sound out,pro gun ownership helpful decent folk ]
Well, any chance of deact collecting and airsofts becoming a free and relatively easy liscense thing has now gone down the U bend!!! :mad:
Watch for the backlash on this one,and watch that non entity TD /councillor from Waterford get plenty of airtime now!! :mad:
Enough to feck up ones Sunday! :mad:

Sparks

Great. What a load of crap all round. A group of muppets decide to get these things without getting licences, a paper reports it getting a dozen basic and well-known facts wrong (Darren Summers was not shot with a ball bearing, for example), and this will just add to the negative publicity that real target shooting athletes and hunters and farmers have to face

And taking this lot on a bus to Donegal? Apart from being illegal (Road Traffic Act, 1963), that's just... stupid!
Gah!
:mad:

I hope they throw several books at these idiots!

Citizen_Erased

Thats the hardest part for me to get my head round - A bus to Donegal? In full kahki's? How did it take the gardai to release something funny was going on?

Flattop 15

Citizen_Erased wrote:

Thats the hardest part for me to get my head round - A bus to Donegal? In full kahki's? How did it take the gardai to release something funny was going on?

About three to four weeks by the look of things.
Somhow i think that getting liscenses for these were the LAST thing on their minds Sparks :rolleyes:

Rovi

Here's the text of the article, for anyone who doesn't want to register for http://www.unison.ie/ (pasted as it appears on the unison site, complete with missing spaces and odd spelling)-

Sunday Independent, June 26, 2005 wrote:

Gardai uncover racist group's cache of weapons

JIM CUSACK

GARDAI are examining a general-purpose machine gun among 35 adapted or imitation weapons uncovered at the south Dublin home of a member of a bizarre right-wing group with links to religious fundamentalists based in Utah.

Four members of the small group, believed to involve young men aged from 15 to 24, were arrested when they were spotted dressed in combat fatigues and carrying haversacks while waiting in Dublin city centre for the 44 bus to Enniskerry last Saturday.

When gardai asked them to open the haversacks they were amazed to see an assortment of 10 imitation and adapted rifles, including replicas of the Heckler and Koch used by the Army's Ranger Wing and the British Army's SA80 rifle.

The 44 bus stop is at the rear of Pearse Street Garda Station and it is understood the group had been catching the bus at around the same time each Saturday while carrying the haversacks for several weeks.

In a subsequent search of a house in Crumlin detectives uncovered another 25 weapons including the tripod-mounted Browning general-purpose machine gun which is a copy of the weapon used by the Army as a "light support weapon". It is believed it might be a copy. They also found an adapted sniper rifle.

Details of the search were not released, it is believed, because of embarrassment at the fact that such a group of young fanatics could import what are perfect replicas of high-powered assault rifles as well as a machine gun that weighs around four stone.

They also found berets with Defence Forces insignia and literature relating to a fundamentalist church with references to Aryanism, the racist, anti-Semitic movement many of whose adherents live in communities in middle America, particularly Utah and Michigan.

What particularly concerned gardai was that the group was able to buy the weapons with ease over the internet and have them delivered to the Crumlin house without raising suspicion. Several of the weapons were adapted to fire steel ball bearings via a gas-powered system with lethal capacity.

There is concern at the proliferation of the gas-power weapons in the past few years and there have been a number of near-fatal incidents involving the gas-power ball bearing guns in the past year.

Five-year-old DarrenSummers was almost killed when hit in the head with one of the pellets while playing in the grounds of his school in Enniskillen, Co Fermanagh last month. Earlier this year, there were two attacks on Garda vehicles in which ball bearings passed through a Garda van and another smashed the windscreen of a squad car at the Traveller site at Dunsink Lane.

A man and woman wereinjured in another pelletgun attack on a bar in Derry last month. And a nine-year-old boy was shot and seriously injured with one of the weapons in north Belfast lastSeptember.

It is not known if the group uncovered by the gardai harboured any sinister intentions but gardai said they were alarmed at some of the magazines and material found in the search of the house in Erigal Road, relating to the activities of 'survivalist' groups in America who have been associated with sieges and attacks on US Federal institutions, black Americans, Jews and liberal groups.

No evidence has emerged to link the group with the recent spate of Nazi graffiti being daubed on synagogues, the Jewish cemetery and the Irish Jewish Museum, all in south Dublin.

In a separate operation, gardai arrested a man after the small Orthodox synagogue and the Dublin Synagogue in Terenure were daubed with swastikas inthe early hours of Friday.

The Drogheda man, who had been under surveillance, was later released from Terenure Garda Station and a file is being sent to the Director of Public Prosecutions relating to racial incitement and damage to property.

I love this bit (my emphasis in bold italics)-

The 44 bus stop is at the rear of Pearse Street Garda Station and it is understood the group had been catching the bus at around the same time each Saturday while carrying the haversacks for several weeks.

Isn't Pearse Street one of the biggest Garda stations in the country???
I guess no-one ever looks out the window :rolleyes:


.

I get the bus there most saturdays - I never noticed them!

Rovi

original_psycho wrote:

I get the bus there most saturdays - I never noticed them!

Looks like their ninja skills of stealth and camouflage were well developed anyway

.

holeyshoe

Unfortunatly their ninja skills arn't going to make life any easier for airsoft owners.

Citizen_Erased

Is there anyone here with a licensed airsoft gun or knows someone with one?
I have to say now that I have several friends with them also and no licenses or anything but they do have their parents permission. Imo , thats all that should be really required to obtain one or if you want more , simply a note from your local sergeant. I think a license is to much and in most cases cost more than the things do.

btw I am refaring to the one that fire 6mm plastic "plinkers"

Blackjack

Rovi wrote:

Isn't Pearse Street one of the biggest Garda stations in the country???
I guess no-one ever looks out the window :rolleyes:

.

I guess it's just not illegal to carry Haversacks at a bus stop.

in fairness to the Gardaí, it can get like clapham junction there, espcially on the weekends, and the buses themselve would obscure the view from Pearse St.

Rovi

Blackjack wrote:

I guess it's just not illegal to carry Haversacks at a bus stop.

Fair enough, I take your point.
We don't live in a police state, and it's not against the law to wear combat fatigues, I just thought it was a bit incongruous that they were using a bus stop outside a Garda Station to head off on their 'adventures.'

.

Rovi

Citizen_Erased wrote:

btw I am refaring to the one that fire 6mm plastic "plinkers"

AFAIK, they ALL use 6mm plastic BBs.
And therein lies the problem.
While the toy like ones (bright colours, odd/futuristic shapes, etc) probably wouldn't cause too much concern, an awful lot of them are pretty good/excellent replicas of the real thing.

For example, €30 plus a bit of postage gets you a Colt M1911 A1 Government

Got $237 to spare? Want to play at 'Irish Army?' here you go-
Steyr AUG


How about one of these?-
Mad Max Shotgun STD Model

Guaranteed to get you LOTS of attention!

Combine these realistic looking guns with the tactical/SWAT/Special Forces/Soldier of Fortune mindset of many of the hardcore enthusiasts, and you have something that doesn't sit well on an island that very recently had all too real combat clothing wearing, automatic weapon carrying (and using!) people roaming about doing their thing. Not to mention the ongoing habit of 'hard men' carrying all sorts of illegal weaponry for protection/enforcement.

I can kinda see the appeal of having realistic looking replicas of real stuff you'd never got a license for, but it all needs to be treated very diplomatically, and this sort of incident doesn't help.

.

Rovi

Rovi wrote:

Fair enough, I take your point.
We don't live in a police state, and it's not against the law to wear combat fatigues, I just thought it was a bit incongruous that they were using a bus stop outside a Garda Station to head off on their 'adventures.'

.

What were they doing anyway? Just drills and stuff, or had they actually used held up/shot at/terroised anyone/thing?

Sparks

What I'm still trying to figure out is how they got a "four-stone" GPMG onto a bus without the driver getting a tad irate....

woody

Flattop 15 wrote:

Todays Sunday Independant.
www.unison.ie
GREAT!!! Just what we flippin need,this close to the CJB!!
25 airsofts and a deact Browning GPMG mounted on a tripod[thought that would be a Browning 50 cal??] found in a house of a bunch of wannabe stormtroopers in Crumlin.Bunch of feckin muppetts!!!Going around in cammo for three weekends catching the BUS to Donegal!!!

Think this kind of proved my point about what kind of people are attracted to and use airsoft.Apart from the article having some as per usual crap journalism linkage of airsoft to the kid who got shot in NI by a 22 rifle as well as to all the other ills that have occured over the last few years of airsoft misuse.
Not only that we now have the attempted linkage of"survivalism" with the right wing nazi groups in the US.
Get ready to dust off all the old eighties arguements from the antis that were used in the UK[to devestating effect post Hungerford] and the US about all the spurious linkage between guns,nazis,and survivalism.[survivalism has nothing to do with right wing para militaristic groups btw.It is a nifty catch all for the media for things they cant understand or explain.Like lumping all bikers in as bad ass Hells Angels type bikers.[Although any of the GENUINE color wearing Hells Angles I have ever met are sound out,pro gun ownership helpful decent folk ]
Well, any chance of deact collecting and airsofts becoming a free and relatively easy liscense thing has now gone down the U bend!!! :mad:
Watch for the backlash on this one,and watch that non entity TD /councillor from Waterford get plenty of airtime now!! :mad:
Enough to feck up ones Sunday! :mad:

Sorry off subject the Browning GPMG they found was a FN MAG on a Sustained Fire Tripod

Citizen_Erased

Yes , Frabrique Nationale are the chief makers of the browning machine gun (eg The large .50cal one etc) But they are the only company that browning worked for that actually put his name on the gun . So it would be correct to call it a browning or an FN or even an FN Browning. And the MAG is a GMPG just by another name (or in French I think)

woody

Correct Dude well French/Belgian

Flattop 15

original_psycho wrote:

What were they doing anyway? Just drills and stuff, or had they actually used held up/shot at/terroised anyone/thing?

Either which way they are goosed[stepped?].If they were drilling and doing tactics,the offences against the state act [?] comes into play.As reciving instruction,drilling with the use of arms is an offence thereunder.It was specifically brought in to prevent the RA&Co from organising training camps,etc.Trouble with it is it could also be used to shut down any gun club as well,due to it's broad wording.
If they used any of the replicas in above mentioned crime.Well, the normal law appropriate gets them.
What gets me,is the blatant obviousness of these idiots.Didnt any of them think that sooner or later that the goon platoon outfits wouldnt attract attention??Considering it must have looked like the Hitler Jugend was boarding the bus????Basic principle of a gureilla unit,camoflage your activity and look normal .

Rovi

Is this what we're talking about?-

FN MAG / M240D pintle-mounted machine gun of late manufacture (with Picatinny rail on the top of the receiver)
Image from http://world.guns.ru/

On a tripod???


How on earth do you get something like that on the bus without attracting attention?


.

the_syco

Sparks wrote:

What I'm still trying to figure out is how they got a "four-stone" GPMG onto a bus without the driver getting a tad irate....

Maybe the fact of a group of people, in full kahki, possibly with

berets with Defence Forces insignia

on them, the bus driver assumed they were from the local FCA force, going on a weekend training course up north. Also, if they went reguarly, no-one would think twice.

I wonder why they were caught, tho. They must have been doing something pretty stupid.

civdef

I'd be more worried if those idiots had catapults, knives or any one of a million other items, all of which have more potential to do harm than replica firearms.

A catapult with a ballbearing poses a much greater risk than some toy gun.

That article imust have been written on the back of a cigarette packet about 2 minutes before deadline. It's no coincidence either, I'm sure, that it's following close on the heels of recent media scares in the UK about replicas - usual story, Irish "journalists" feel the need to ape their British tabloid cousins.

Rew

Rovi wrote:

Is this what we're talking about?-

FN MAG / M240D pintle-mounted machine gun of late manufacture (with Picatinny rail on the top of the receiver)
Image from http://world.guns.ru/

On a tripod???


How on earth do you get something like that on the bus without attracting attention?


.

This is it

Sparks

That article imust have been written on the back of a cigarette packet about 2 minutes before deadline.

True, and the Sindo's had a spree recently of having to make some very public apologies
and rather hefty settlements over stories they've published which turned out to be wildly incorrect - and not in minor details, but in actual accusations of criminal behaviour which the named parties were innocent of!

Citizen_Erased

It doesnt actually say that they took the Machine gun with them , they just found it at their house.
I would also have to agree with CivDef , I'd be more worried if they had pointed sticks or fruit.

Flattop 15

the bus driver assumed they were from the local FCA force, going on a weekend training course up north. Also, if they went reguarly, no-one would think twice.

I wonder why they were caught, tho. They must have been doing something pretty stupid.[/QUOTE]

Errr,Is the Irish army that poor nowadays that we have to ship the FCA by Bus Eirenn??I think we can still ship them by truck.Plus they were wearing cammo not khaki.The FCA AFIK still wears khaki,plus Irish army cammo ,current issue is hard if not impossible to get on the civvie market.There is only one maker and supplier for it,PROTAC in the Curragh army camp.
They were pretty stupid allright.By being so blatantly obvious.
On another point tho.Has anyone seen ANY followup to this story inthe papers or media???I would have thought ths would be getting full attention.
Neo nazis with guns and doing manouvers in Donegal??
Maybe there is somthing rotten here?

Rew

No such thing as the FCA anymore its all the RDF and they are all in full Irish cammo. Protac only make/sell rucksacks and webbing in irish cammo, no uniform bits. The odd bit of uniform crops up on EBay but its illegal to sell or buy the stuff so its rare enough.

Citizen_Erased

Firstly , what to say they didnt do an enlistment in the FCA and still had the gear. Its not that unlikely by the sounds of them . My brother still hass his full kit complete with insignia and was unenlisted about a year ago. And hes only 21.
Secondly , not everyone is an expert on cammo.

Old Ladies wrote:

"That khakis hes wearing there"." No, no , they're not , they're just standard cammo , you can't buy civilian khakies. They only make them in the curragh"

Rew

Citizen_Erased wrote:

Firstly , what to say they didnt do an enlistment in the FCA and still had the gear. Its not that unlikely by the sounds of them . My brother still hass his full kit complete with insignia and was unenlisted about a year ago. And hes only 21.
Secondly , not everyone is an expert on cammo.

There supposed to take back all the gear and burn it but its very dependant on the indvidual units. Ypu would hope neo-nazi's wouldn't pass the security check for joining the reserves.

Citizen_Erased

Why , is there a check box beside marital status called neo-nazism?

FCA - free clothes association, whats its called up around here cause in the past that was all it was for really.

civdef

All this FCA stuff is not really relevant to this section.

chem

its nice to see we are all being lead along by the press! We all think we can see trough the crap printed about miss use of firearms on this site, but look at us now.

Im not saying that there is noting to it, just that one leaflet was found that had somthing to do with a neo-nazi group. So does that mean that i am a nazi because i have a WW2 officer SS tunic? No i just have an interest in mill uniforms. Some replicas were also recovered. So what? they were not running down the streets waveing them at people. they had them in bags and replicas are not against the law (YET)

These YOUNG lads were just stupid and most likely just doing this type of thing because they tought it was cool :rolleyes: silly as it may have been.

whatever they were up to in the North west, must not have been upsetting anyone, as there was no reports of anyone seeing camo clad men doing tactics or that. As to the de-act if that is what it was, well then that was breaking the law they should get punished for that.

I like my freedom to do what i want in this country. As long as i do not harm anyone by my activitys i feel i should be permitted to do what i want as long as it is within the laws of the land. This country is starting to fall into a semi police state, as England has and continues to. The job of the law enforcement powers that be, should not be an easy one in a free and democratic country. Im not saying the gardi have it easy :eek: but new laws are alway being brought in for one thing or another that permit the gardi to invade abit more each time into peoples lives.

I know the old saying "sure if you have notting to hide...." but no i dont agree with that look on it. lets say the gardi got it into there heads that because i had a ss tunic + licenced firearms, i must be cooking up something sinister in my head. with the powers they have now, i could be draged into a station and questioned for hours on end. I could be seen as a racist gun owner or any number of spins that some promotion hungry officer puts on it.

Before you all say it could never happen. look at what happened in donegal for years
and im sure its only the tip of alot of things that could come out yet, all over the country.

All im saying is that all of you should just have a look around your own home and just think. If for any reason someone was to have a look around, that had no idea of shooting interests at all, what would be going trough there minds?

What about the copy of guns and ammo on your coffee table, the combats in your press, your net history on the computer. Its only afew things. But i hope you see what im getting at.

Someone asked, why is there no follow up to this story? my view is because there is no story there. If there was a real story there im sure it would be front page for weeks and righty so. At least then the press would be doing a service for once by exposeing neo nazi scum.

Degsy

Its true,if you want to dress up in cammo and carry toy guns up the mountains well you should be allowed to do so.This is supposed to be a democracy,if you want to have the complete teachings of adolf hitler,chairman mao and pol pot on your coffee table you should also be allowed to do so.I myself collect militaria of various types(mostly second world war and mostly german),i have numerous books on ww2 and i'm sure if i looked hard enough i could find a toy gun somewhere.Is this to say that if they raided my house they would find 'facist' uniforms,'nazi' prpoganda and 'lethal' firearms??

Sparks

Have I misread it, or were they not airsoft guns that these lads had in the bag? And RDF uniform bits - I'm pretty sure that having either is an offense in the circumstances.

As to the "nazi propaganda", my mother's a history teacher, so if you searched her house you'd find a copy of Mein Kampf - that wouldn't make her a nazi though!

It's a pity the Sindo is the country's largest selling newspaper, given the way that stories in it have a tendency to be poorly researched I mean, it's not like we'd tell them to bugger off if they called any of the associations to ask questions!

Rew

Sparks wrote:

Have I misread it, or were they not airsoft guns that these lads had in the bag? And RDF uniform bits - I'm pretty sure that having either is an offense in the circumstances.

Sounds like they were airsofters. They had some Defence Forces berets (nothing specfic to which type).

Indo is a rag TBH, alot of the article is padded out with scaremongering and stories of unlrealted incidents.

Rovi

For an idea of the range available and what many airsoft guns look like, take a look here- http://www.xcalibertactical.com/airsoft.htm
Lots of eeeeeeeeeeeevil black guns there.


Erm........................... while you're there, take a look at this stuff :eek: :eek: :eek:

I particularly like the "PREDATOR" PACKAGE


.

Citizen_Erased

Yeah I saw a video somewhere of someone shootong a tv with one of those BB miniguns.
Completely destroyed it.

[edit] actually , it appears to be on that site also.

jaycee

Erm........................... while you're there, take a look at this stuff

I particularly like the "PREDATOR" PACKAGE

Wow !.. as toy's go... :eek: :eek: :eek:

I don't know if i'm horrified , jealous or amused ..

Flattop 15

Im not saying that there is noting to it, just that one leaflet was found that had somthing to do with a neo-nazi group. So does that mean that i am a nazi because i have a WW2 officer SS tunic? No i just have an interest in mill uniforms. Some replicas were also recovered. So what? they were not running down the streets waveing them at people. they had them in bags and replicas are not against the law (YET)


These YOUNG lads were just stupid and most likely just doing this type of thing because they tought it was cool :rolleyes: silly as it may have been.

whatever they were up to in the North west, must not have been upsetting anyone, as there was no reports of anyone seeing camo clad men doing tactics or that. As to the de-act if that is what it was, well then that was breaking the law they should get punished for that.

I like my freedom to do what i want in this country. As long as i do not harm anyone by my activitys i feel i should be permitted to do what i want as long as it is within the laws of the land. This country is starting to fall into a semi police state, as England has and continues to. The job of the law enforcement powers that be, should not be an easy one in a free and democratic country. Im not saying the gardi have it easy :eek: but new laws are alway being brought in for one thing or another that permit the gardi to invade abit more each time into peoples lives.

I know the old saying "sure if you have notting to hide...." but no i dont agree with that look on it. lets say the gardi got it into there heads that because i had a ss tunic + licenced firearms, i must be cooking up something sinister in my head. with the powers they have now, i could be draged into a station and questioned for hours on end. I could be seen as a racist gun owner or any number of spins that some promotion hungry officer puts on it.

Before you all say it could never happen. look at what happened in donegal for years
and im sure its only the tip of alot of things that could come out yet, all over the country.

All im saying is that all of you should just have a look around your own home and just think. If for any reason someone was to have a look around, that had no idea of shooting interests at all, what would be going trough there minds?

What about the copy of guns and ammo on your coffee table, the combats in your press, your net history on the computer. Its only afew things. But i hope you see what im getting at.

Someone asked, why is there no follow up to this story? my view is because there is no story there. If there was a real story there im sure it would be front page for weeks and righty so. At least then the press would be doing a service for once by exposeing neo nazi scum.

[/QUOTE]



I agree with you whole heartledy.You should have the right to do what you want,as far as I am concerned this is supposedly a demoracy,so some of the more unpleasent type of opinions and ideals do have to be tolerated[Eg nazisim or whatever]for all I could care they can hold a party rally on a Nurnberg size up in Donegal,if they dont bother the good folk of that county or any other citizens of Ireland with their bigotry.

Trouble is;that what they did was against the law.Second thing was,that they got caught doing it as well.
Third ,because of that they give the media whores somthing new to sell or a new stick to hit us ligit shooting folk with.if you are going to do somthing illegal why not keep it QT?Which this lot obvisouly hadn't a clue about.
Fourth;It does seem convient that with airsoft bans being mooted in the UK,that this happens here and the kid getting shot up North with a "pellet pistol",that all this happens in a short timeframe.Conspircy theory anyone?
As you said it is becoming more of a police state,news is,it isnt going to get any better.

chem

It won`t be long now, till we hear the same lines as the british goverment are feeding the people. "We are taking in the new ID system to protect the freedoms of the people" or "The new powers are designed to allow the police to fight the treat of ....... more effectively"

its all abit to much like big brother to me 1984 n all.

The government solution to a problem is usually as bad as the problem.
Milton Friedman, born 1912

Flattop 15

chem wrote:

It won`t be long now, till we hear the same lines as the british goverment are feeding the people. "We are taking in the new ID system to protect the freedoms of the people" or "The new powers are designed to allow the police to fight the treat of ....... more effectively"

its all abit to much like big brother to me 1984 n all.

The government solution to a problem is usually as bad as the problem.
Milton Friedman, born 1912

Belive it or not already on the cards so to speak[no pun intended]if the UK goes ahead with theirs,due to the "massive" interchange of people travelling between all these island groups.At least our current minister Mc Dowell has said it wont happen under him and he personally considers it an infringement of personal privacy.

Sparks

Flattop 15 wrote:

At least our current minister Mc Dowell has said it wont happen under him and he personally considers it an infringement of personal privacy.

He's also said that he thinks our firearms laws are overly onerous and need to be relaxed. I've taken to looking at what he does more than listening to what he says these days, sadly

Away Team

Flattop 15 wrote:

Todays Sunday Independant.
www.unison.ie
GREAT!!! Just what we flippin need,this close to the CJB!!
25 airsofts and a deact Browning GPMG mounted on a tripod[thought that would be a Browning 50 cal??] found in a house of a bunch of wannabe stormtroopers in Crumlin.Bunch of feckin muppetts!!!Going around in cammo for three weekends catching the BUS to Donegal!!!

Well this sound like a classic… we get the same over here, I'm sure you remember it well flattop, where the Police make a 'bust' just before a critical vote on gun laws. Funny that, how they never lift the muppets AFTER the votes, always just before were it will make shooters look bad… not that I'm cynical.


Jimbo

jaycee

He's also said that he thinks our firearms laws are overly onerous and need to be relaxed

Is that a direct quote ..?

I hope it isn't something that we have to bring up in the context of..
... " But you said.... "

I doubt very much if anything is going to be decided this side of the summer recess.

Flattop 15

It has got to be a misquote.
Cos if what he said is true,he considers our gun laws too stringent and they need to be eased up on!
If what he said is genuine and proceeds with it.He has my vote.
Although I think a MOJ saying somthing like that and meaning it is about as likely as a aerobatic formation squadron of flying pigs!

Sparks

jaycee wrote:

Is that a direct quote ..?

Flattop 15 wrote:

It has got to be a misquote.

From 26 Feb 2004 (and about the second or third post in the Parlimentary Questions thread:

4. Mr. Deasy asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the policy on the issuing of licences for 0308 firearms and other similar armaments; if his attention has been drawn to the fact that this policy prevents marksmen from representing Ireland internationally; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [6399/04]

Mr. McDowell: The Deputy will appreciate that there is a difficult balance to be drawn between, on the one hand, having a firearms policy which seeks to limit the availability of particular classes of firearm for reasons of public safety and national security and, on the other hand, endeavouring to meet the requirements of those who wish to participate in international shooting competitions.

Since 1972 the general approach has been that the use of all rifled firearms of a calibre exceeding .22 inches and all handguns should be curbed. It was the view of successive Ministers for Justice that public safety and security was best served by that approach as it was designed particularly to make it more difficult for pistols, revolvers and heavy calibre rifles to come into the hands of those who would misuse them, not least in the context of the then prevailing security situation. The policy has not been inflexible in that in 1993 the then Government authorised an increase in the calibre of firearms which might be licensed for deer culling and competitive target shooting from .22 inch to .270 inch.

Granting firearms certificates, which authorise possession, use and carrying of a firearm, is a matter at the discretion of Garda superintendents in accordance with the relevant legislation. The Supreme Court found in May 2002 that in exercising that statutory function, superintendents could not be subject to directions from the Garda Commissioner. However, where a licence is required for the importation of firearms this, under law, is a matter for the Minister, and the long-standing policy would exclude the issuing of a licence for the importation of the type of firearm referred to by the Deputy.

I have heard from and met people who consider that policy antiquated. I can see some considerable force — this is a view which Deputy Deasy might share — in the proposition that the real danger to Irish society probably does not come from misappropriated sporting firearms or competitive shooting firearms, and that the prevalence of firearms and their availability from other sources is probably much more obvious as a problem than this particular problem. I want to review the position and address the difficulties that competitive shooters currently encounter.

Mr. Deasy: I appreciate the response. The problem is that this has been going on for about five or six years. The Minister spoke of balance in the policy, but there does not appear to be much of that. There does not seem to be much common sense here. A European champion applied for a licence and he poses no threat to national security, yet he was not allowed a licence.

This is officialdom gone mad on drugs. It is crazy that somebody like Nicholas Flood — we do not have many European champions — cannot get a certificate for a 0308 firearm. There must be some way out for those people who represent Ireland in these shooting competitions. The Minister informs me that neither he nor the Garda Commissioner has the power to direct a superintendent in this case. The person concerned has been informed that the superintendent has consulted his superiors and that they have said “no”. It is does not make sense; this is madness. He is caught in a bureaucratic minefield — a crazy tangle of bureaucracy and officialdom.

Somebody needs to step in and make sense of this. It does not seem the gardaí are willing to do that. The Minister must address this from a common-sense standpoint. I appreciate the Minister said he will review this but, in the meantime, this country is losing money by not being able to hold these events. Somebody must step in, make sense of this and provide a way out for these people who represent our country.


Mr. McDowell: I agree with Deputy Deasy. The situation at present is unduly conservative and a political steer is needed. I confess that I met some of the relevant interests over a year ago and promised them early action. For one reason or another, I have been blown off course on that issue.


Mr. Costello: The Opposition was not co-operative, I presume.


Mr. McDowell: I am glad Deputy Costello is interrupting me while I am admitting to fault. An intelligent, common-sense approach will make for a situation which would be more satisfactory. I share Deputy Deasy’s view that people engaging in a competitive sport recognised at Olympic level and the like should not face insuperable or impossible odds on a domestic legislation front just because they live in Ireland, which is not wholly different from any other society in the world in terms of the firearms issue, when we all just wish them well when they go abroad to represent the State.


Mr. Deasy: The Minister said he will undertake a review. How soon will he do so? These people have been put on the long finger for years.


Mr. McDowell: I will stick my neck out and say that I will ask my officials to set in train a review with a view to coming to a firm decision by mid-summer of this year.

Flattop 15

Yeah... say one thing do another.About as genuine a seven euro note.
or as beliveable as an Irish politican telling the truth at a tribunal

Sparks

And still a lot better than him saying that we've no merit to our appeals at all, isn't it?

chem

what he said is not worth the paper its wrote on sparks. im sure he was forgetting what he was saying, as soon as he was saying it!

He will be listening to all the gardi crying out for the guns to be taken off the streets and will have to be seen doing somthing, so low and behold its the licenced gun owners who get the full strenght of the law trown at them. its like any other job, you find the handiest way out of it.

same old same old

Sparks

I wouldn't go quite that far chem, though like I said, I'll be watching the deeds more than the words. Put it this way - if words don't matter, why was everyone up in arms at the firearms act being amended through a criminal justice bill? The substance of the act was unaffected by the name of the bill, so wasn't it all just words?

The worry over what the gardai have been saying about licenced firearms and crime levels is a very valid one though. Hence the several PQs pointing out that there are no statistics to back up the assertion, and that the firearms used in crimes weren't available to licenced owners at the time of the crimes.

Flattop 15

, I'll be watching the deeds more than the words.

And you said a mouthful of truth there Sparks.
Thats where it comes down to.
But unfortunatly,I am more cynical of the denizens of the Dail past records being able to produce more U turns,broken promises and other feck them they are only voters attitudes,not to mind bumbling incompetance than actual ,benefical,practical well thought out,non quick fix,knee jerk legislation.
So I will take mr Mc Dowells comment even on the Dail records with a large pinch of salt.
Just lets say ,maybe we should move to Missouri. The "Show me" state.