Architect for small extension

Maverik

Hi all,

I know there was a thread about something similar recently, but I wondered if anyone knows of (junior) architect willing to take on the design of a small kitchen extension. I have cold-called several architecture practices, and the first question they ask is 'what's the budget?'

If it's any less than 8 squillion, they are too busy to talk

Am going to try DIT on Monday to see if I can get a student wanting to make some money in the summer.

I don't need planning permission as it's under 40 m2 in size, but need one quick as I need to have the work complete before summer ends

Any help appreciated

is_that_so

Be interested to hear how you get on. Friend of mine went to an architect for something similar and was quoted €3,000 for plans.

MorningStar

I don't think you will need an architect. Unless there is some crazy statement you need to make with the extention. A draughtsman could probably do the trick better and cheaper. I would go to an engineer and get them to do drawings and checks on the building as it goes up.
Architects don't actually need quailfications to operate in Ireland but an engineer does. They also tend to understand builders better.
As a former student of Bolton Street I would not hire a architect student, the civil engineers are better draughtsmen but that could be predjudice

Maverik

Thanks for the advice M Star, very interesting, and personally I'm quite glad I don't need an architect

Do you happen to know any draughtsmen/building engineers that I could contact?

kadman

MorningStar wrote:

As a former student of Bolton Street I would not hire a architect student, the civil engineers are better draughtsmen but that could be predjudice

Definitely predjudice. Civils tends to mean muck. Maybe thats predjudice too.

Good and bad in both disciplines I'm afraid. If either can detail in 3d parametric programmes, top notch.

kadman

rooferPete

Hi Kadman,

My experience of "Civil" has been a lot of hard work for poor returns

Methinks RooKad may consider this project if the client is interested in quality drawings and provides a sufficient quantity of tea while discussing the concept

.

kadman

Rooferpete,

you want us to work for tea now. Have things really got that bad for us. :eek:

You know I,m thinking of a new bike, and this bike requires many roubles to clinch the deal. So there would have to be a more tempting bevvy than tea, perhaps a moderate alcoholic content, may suffice.

Me old keyboard arthritis, would definitely benefit from an alcohlol splurge....er..I mean rub. :rolleyes:

" Civil " professionals, yes they 'll hit the mark, for you.

kadman

rooferPete

Kadman Old Chap,

I most certainly did not rule out financial renumeration, heavens above I was only laying out the ground work so to speak

As per the RooKad customer policy document (currently out to tender for printing) always engage with an educated client.

Well this Potential Client has phase one in writing, beverages in sufficient quantities and conducive to the team members pallet must be supplied in the course of negotiations

Of course all of our clients to date have not allowed the minor detail of renumeration to sully there thoughts at concept stage, I can assure you Old Bean this Client will be treated with the same courtesy and fee policy of previous clients

.

kadman

Ah Jaysus Rooferpete

Does that mean that " Lenny the gimp, Frankie four fingers, and Fat Toni ", have to hide out in my place again. NOOooo.....I still cant get the smell of paiella out of my house.

Ah well go on then. Give me the brief then. But I want paying this time Rooferpete

I do all the work, you take all the praise, and you get all the dosh. Where's the part in me contract , Roofetpete, about the equality bit. I cant find it, and god knows , that small print is feccing small...me old peepers aint wot they used to be O-O..., ahh theres me specs.

kadman

lensman

there is a guy (architect) who had an ongoing add in the northside news (free Dublin paper) ,...check if he's still there.

I didn’t use him but he charges €60 to call and discuss your needs & measure up, this comes off the total if you deside to go ahead with him.

rooferPete

Hi lensman,

Is he the Guy who made Prime Time recently ?

.

MorningStar

lensman wrote:

there is a guy (architect) who had an ongoing add in the northside news (free Dublin paper) ,...check if he's still there.

I didn’t use him but he charges €60 to call and discuss your needs & measure up, this comes off the total if you deside to go ahead with him.

I always wonder about this. Why would you pay somebody €60 for doing no work? He is there to sell his services to you and you pay him! Many charge 10% of building cost too. So if you increase a room size (very easy to do with electronic plans) they charge you 10% of the building cost on the room extension. It's less than 10 minutes work and a complete rip off. The pricing stems from manual drawings and could be justified then but now it laziness and a rip off.
An architect worth his salt should provide free consultation. In saying that you would need to take picture and scetch what you want.
I still think an engineer is cheaper and better option for small building works like this.

rooferPete

Hi MorningStar,

Sad to say but we have a charge for surveying and submiting a specification and cost for all works, it is a non refundable deposit, we get the job the charge comes off the final invoice.

The reason is I could be on the road all day pricing work against part time contactors, providing specifications and details for them to work to instead of looking after genuine enquiries.

My defense is the day all local garages give out free diesel for contractors giving out free estimates and specifications in there area is the day I will give active consideration to "Free Estimates".

This is not a Celtic Tiger thing, if you can find a 1982 Golden Pages and onward you will never find the words "Free Estimates" in any of my advertisements.

Charges be they "Survey Fees" or "Non Refundable Deposits" are at my discretion, but then I am the boss, if I make a mistake that's my problem nobody else to blame.

I believe all valued enquiries (without them I have no business) deserve my time and experience to make sure they are getting value for their money, that takes time and time is money.

I don't look on surveying a job as selling, it is more the client choosing who they buy from, thankfully enough buy from a professional to keep me in business

.

lensman

as it's only a 1 room kitchen extention I'd nearly use one of the many home design software packages available and have a go, I've seen a few of these about in easons & other places under this heading for around €10 ~ €15.

on the other hand you need to gather other papers and area maps to submit with your plans of course which is what you pay a pro for,..

Maverik

Sorry, don't quite follow Lensman, but sounds interesting. A software package you can buy at Eason's bookstore? How does it work? Stick in the dimensions and play around?

Can I get design details like floor to wall joints incl DPC etc?

MorningStar

rooferPete wrote:

Hi MorningStar,

Sad to say but we have a charge for surveying and submiting a specification and cost for all works, it is a non refundable deposit, we get the job the charge comes off the final invoice.



.

There is a big difference between providing a detailed spec /survey and charging €60 to call out to have a look and chat. You are in the trade so I am sure you see more of this than I do but I have seen what has been provided for €60-€150 "consultation" and it has not been worth it.
On jobs where the stability of the building etc... need to be established first I get the cost elimate. Unfortunately in many other businesses tendering is a business cost plain and simple. You tender for a job at a cost you might not get the contract. I don't see why the building industry should be any different and it isn't in many cases. When it gets down to the small level people do get ripped off with additional charges due to inexperince. When I got electricians in to quote none of them charged me a fee. When I replaced the roof on a rental property I got a surveys report and details of what was to be done and got quotes that way. Nothing personal but I wouldn't trust the same company to check their own work or that they would fix/find everything. If they wanted to see it I wasn't going to put up with an extra charge from them too.

lensman

Maverik wrote:

Sorry, don't quite follow Lensman, but sounds interesting. A software package you can buy at Eason's bookstore? How does it work? Stick in the dimensions and play around?

Can I get design details like floor to wall joints incl DPC etc?

yeh,..there are some Cd's in easons & tommys in the blanch centre,..
I think they way they work is that to begin with you answer a number
of basic questions....dimensions and such, then you select the required
design features, doors, windows from a series of menu's.
if you do a web search you can download demo's and try some packages
out first.
I might add that I have not actualy used them myself.

Branners

Hi maverick,

Where abouts do you live man, coz i'm a qualified Architectural Technician, have done many an extension
with no problems, if you wanna PM me, i can get out and have a look for you depending on where you live man.
I'm out in Balbriggan myself.

lensman

Branners wrote:

Hi maverick,

Where abouts do you live man, coz i'm a qualified Architectural Technician, have done many an extension
with no problems, if you wanna PM me, i can get out and have a look for you depending on where you live man.
I'm out in Balbriggan myself.

looks like your sucking diesel now maverick,.. check his pockets for CD's,. ,....joking Branners

Branners

lensman wrote:

looks like your sucking diesel now maverick,.. check his pockets for CD's,. ,....joking Branners

No bother man

tapest

You guys really pi$$ me off.....why ? I'll come to that in a minute.

"That guy who made primetime"....yep you guessed it I had him out( the first of a 1/2 doz) and what a lucky escape.....The guy thats doing it, and still doing it, now (plans that is) started before last xmas as a nixer..still costing a couple of grand. And it's only a plain simple flat roofed box 18 x 10.

Now getting back to you guys...Although your lively banter, satirical wit and colourful repartee is extremely entertaining, YOU...yes YOU held the answer to all my problems. I should have given more consideration to plan B. Meeting up with the pair of ya (concealing a scaffolding return up my sleeve) and taking you captive for a weekend. Starting you of with a pencil(one between two, cost cutting) and a sheet of A4. I reckon that on the monday morning all I'd have to do is paint new building

Regards
t
ps you think I'm joking??...Don't plan your vacation yet.

rooferPete

Hi MorningStar,

When presented with a full specification and BOQ then no problem I just email, fax or phone my quote based on the information supplied.

The side of the market I have chosen is where there can be up to ten different proposals from different contractors with different levels of skill and knowledge.

I call that "Shopping" I agree a shop has overheads based on the cost of opening the door every day, but it is up to the retailer to point out the difference in the product or after sales service they have compared to fair competition.

Unfortunately I am not supplying a kilo of sugar that is supplied to a standard that must be met by all of the manufacturers and retailers of sugar thus ensuring the consumer a like for like product.

Very few of the consumers I meet with realise that qualified trades persons should have Safe Pass Cards, Construction Skills Cards and Full Health and Safety Statements.

The above are just the basics in my view, one of the best forms of ID I carry is a C2 card issued by the Revenue, any other qualifications I have may or may not benefit my customers.

When I submit a specification it can and has been used by the property owners to obtain like for like prices from other contractors, they may get the prices it doesn't mean they will get the job I have specified.

I agree consumers are paying too much in a lot of cases, however if I present myself as a professional and supply the specification and fail to provide the service as I have specified and there is a problem then I have absolutely zero defence.

There is a difference in the services I provide, that difference is displayed by the number of referrals I get from the public many of them people I have never worked for some from people who wish they did buy my services.

Everyone in the Construction Industry is not out to rip off the customers, that is a very short sighted view for any service provider to have because overheads do increase substantially by needing full page advertisements in directories, some double full size pages with highlight colours.

Either way the consumer pays, I think my way is more honest

.

MorningStar

Cheers tapest,

2k for some drawings makes me think I should start doing drawings part time. It's probably not even 10 hours work for a simple extentsion.
You do relaise you might not need drawings due the relaxed planing laws?

rooferPete

PHeeeeeeeeeW,

Sorry tapest,

I do try to help where I can as do RooKad, sad part is RooKad is a ficticous firm of advisors, the two partners have never even met let alone shared a pencil.

Not sure about the pencil bit but I am sure being very passive a scaffold bar is not needed to hold my attention.

For what it's worth the first extension I built as a self employed contractor cost less than two grand and that's euro conversion included.

The first new roof I sold again in my own right cost less than one thousand, today both jobs would hardly have increased in cost by factor of ten.

I remember the Architect on the extension charged one hundred and twenty pounds and because of my age (youth) he visited that job every day, he would walk in announcing "I was just passing"

Sad part is he was making a nice living as was I but the change in the numbers do not make any sense, he did not have CAD it wasn't invented, everything was hand drawn and the main plan was even rendered.

So what are now basic services (well almost) because he had to ensure compliance with very active building bye laws and inspectors have increased in cost by a factor of twenty yet the actual construction by a factor of ten ?.

You are right, there are questions but I don't have the answers, better get back to my real work

.

MorningStar

Hey Pete,

Don't get me wrong I don't think everybody in the building trade is corrupt. It's people that can't be trusted

It doesn't matter what you are dealing with if you haven't got a clue what is going on human nature tends towards the "screw them" part of peoples' personality.

You know in the building game there is a hell of a lot of people getting money and not paying all their taxes. Short cuts are taken if there is nobody looking over their shoulder.

To pay anybody a percentage for work or price decided by anybody else is something I particularly dislike. It has a air of arrogance and paracitic nature. Time and materials or fixed pricing should be applicable for drawing IMHO.

Between the IT industry and the building industry I see little difference in attitudes and people's behaviour. You just don't get a systems architect getting a percentage of software sales.

You know what you are talking about but customer service from the building trade is terrible so that's why there is so much mistrust. How often do the schedules and cost stick? Software is the same but the customers don't see it as much.

lensman

tapest wrote:

taking you captive for a weekend. Starting you of with a pencil(one between two, cost cutting) and a sheet of A4. I reckon that on the monday morning all I'd have to do is paint new building

Regards
t
ps you think I'm joking??...Don't plan your vacation yet.

sounds like "the money pit" starring Tom Hanks...
and yes I know the original was played by Cary Grant..

lensman

rooferPete wrote:

Hi lensman,

Is he the Guy who made Prime Time recently ?

.

don't have a clue, only spoke with him on the phone..

kadman

MorningStar wrote:

Cheers tapest,

2k for some drawings makes me think I should start doing drawings part time. It's probably not even 10 hours work for a simple extentsion.
You do relaise you might not need drawings due the relaxed planing laws?

Ah, but grasshopper, would you have a worthwhile drawing, or ten hours worth of drivel.

You are correct MStar, the architects fee seems a tad expensive. But as we do not know the exact brief, is that fee for just four walls on paper. Or is he project managing as well.

He may not need drawings due to relaxed planning, and not requiring planning permission.

So does he communicate with the builder by telepathic means then. :eek:

I also see rip offs in the it sector. 150 to install os on a standard home pc, no networking. Jesus I might just hang up my cad software, forget my years of construction experience, and have a go at that. Sure wasn,t I programming in machine code in 78, when it was unheard of. Still got me sinclair zx 81, Vic 20.

Pros for the professional input, cowboys for the rest.

kadman

Branners

Think this is gone a little outta hand, i mean of course there's corrupt tradesmen, architects, engineers, etc.

But thats only a small percentage as in any job, practice
or site. I agree with Roofer pete in the fact that the building industry is corrupt, but most of the work received in the industry is by referall and if the job is not done properly, you might not receive much work there after, but if the job is on time, up to standard and not an extrordinary price charged people will recomend your service.

All in all, out there aren't cowboys, but just be careful
who you employ!

lensman

kadman wrote:

Sure wasn,t I programming in machine code in 78, when it was unheard of. Still got me sinclair zx 81, Vic 20.

Pros for the professional input, cowboys for the rest.

kadman

programming the zx 81,.. you mean holding down Ctrl + shift + Alt + backspace + numlock + tab + PgDn
to get the @ sign to appear, and after spending a week typing you then had to
spend 6mths debugging the crap out of it,...happy days

MorningStar

kadman wrote:

Ah, but grasshopper, would you have a worthwhile drawing, or ten hours worth of drivel.

You are correct MStar, the architects fee seems a tad expensive. But as we do not know the exact brief, is that fee for just four walls on paper. Or is he project managing as well.

He may not need drawings due to relaxed planning, and not requiring planning permission.

So does he communicate with the builder by telepathic means then. :eek:

I also see rip offs in the it sector. 150 to install os on a standard home pc, no networking. Jesus I might just hang up my cad software, forget my years of construction experience, and have a go at that. Sure wasn,t I programming in machine code in 78, when it was unheard of. Still got me sinclair zx 81, Vic 20.

Pros for the professional input, cowboys for the rest.

kadman

In fairness my first qualification is as a draughtsman mind you it's been a while since I used a CAD.

The brief could be complicated but with info given we agree that it is expensive.

Many extensions did't use proper plans but things may have changed I guess.

Don't get me wrong about rip offs, I believe there is rip offs in any proffesion that holds a bit of mystery like say car repair. I think the building trade has a little more as I grew up around it and heard more scams than anywhere else since.

The vic 30 coding might hold up it's the roots of VB You could probably follow the code by reading it

rooferPete

Hi MorningStar,

I agree with a lot of what you posted, Architects and Engineers should be able to give fixed price products, the percentage of the project basis has always confused me, perhaps that is where the Profession could help itself, a fixed cost based on the work involved.

There was a time when the Architect was fully in control of the job almost as if he / she were the client, the trust appears to have evaporated out of the service because the public appear to have the question in the back of their mind, "Why wasn't the cheapest quote accepted ?"

The percentage basis of their employment comes under question when by and large they are acting in the client's interest based on experience and professionalism.

I have seen many people who have had there roofs opened up only to have a contractor arrive in and start playing the "Extras" game, of course they can't argue when the roof is off their building (not just home owners).

The very same with extensions, attic conversions, drive ways, garden walls, plumbing, heating.................. the list could go on all night.

There can be change of work orders and unforseen items that are usually covered by Provisional Sums, then you can hit dry rot that should be every property owners nightmare, I can assure it is mine because the customer is inclined towards the "Rip Off" mentallity even with the most honest contractor.

The Survey Fee was not my idea it was a customer who offered a fee for an honest report that he could rely on, that was pre 1980 when the Celtic Tiger was but a glint in his Grand Fathers eye

As for the tax issue well we see the "Nixer" concept throughout some posts, the public will get the service they pay for, if not today they pay tomorrow.

In cases where there are disputes between a consumer and supplier of goods and services I actually disqualify myself from carrying out the works the reason being, no conflict of interest the customer has a survey they can take to court if they need to.

I am not seeking a nomination for Sainthood, I am behind schedule, I do make mistakes and I am still trying to figure out what these are "sinclair zx 81, Vic 20"

What did this thread start out as ? apologies for going so many miles off topic.

.

tapest

Sorry for confusion guys
Architect's brief is for drawings only... needed to get planning permission. Other wise I would not have bothered. He'll have no contact with builder if / when i get one.
I thought it was a little on the dear side...but going through the front door and you paying percentage. The problem I have with this is that it is not based on the actual cost but what architect says it should cost. On the phone they were quoting telephone numbers...€ K4, € K5, again just for plans. I rang many companies from list I got from their assopsiation in ballsbridge.
The other reason for getting this guy is ..I could get no one else, As previously stated I had 1/2 out and they all ran away after holding me on a string for months on end. More than 2 years trying to get plans...That's crazy.
Another problem now is the short list of builders I had will, I suppose, have evaporated by now. And if the experts on telly are right everything will go up 10% to 15% next year when SSIA mature. I'll probably have no choice but to self /direct build.
Planning permission is needed because of remaining back yard size, unless relaxed planning is very recent
As regard ROOKAD, I know ...I got it first time....But ye could sell tickets....Best entertainment in years....Do keep it up..It lifts the cloud of depression that sometimes falls on threads like these.
RooferPete....there's a wee bit of auld Terry trying to get out
Best Regards guys
t

MorningStar

tapest wrote:

Sorry for confusion guys
Architect's brief is for drawings only... needed to get planning permission.

I am really seriously thinking about doing drawings part time now. Of course the the Autocad licence is pretty expensive which I would have to pay. If it's just for planing they aren't even that detailed.

I agree the SSIAs are going to shoot up the prices. I think it will happen before they mature as people realise this.