Fitness

Richard_S

I'm completely new to this whole area so I thought I would ask this first

What is the typical training program outside MA? Or is it all performed within the actual classes?

What I am trying to say is running, weight lifting, press ups, and so on.



Yours,

RS

dlofnep

Skipping rope for x amount of time.. Long distance running.. Hindu Squats. Swimming. It depends really on the person.. If they are competing then naturally the level on conditioning will be higher.

Colm_OReilly

Richard,

Welcome to the board. You're asking a lot of questions there. Are you looking for a supplementary Strength & Conditioning advice or are you wondering if training 2-3 times a week will get you "fit enough"? What do you understand by fitness, and what are your fitness goals?

If you have answers to these we might be able to help you better. In the mean time, check out www.crossfit.com

Peace Out,
Colm

dudara

Beyond my taekwon training, i run 2-3 times a week, as well as weight training 2-3 times a week. It's not geared towards martial arts fitness per se, but anything that makes me fitter, lighter, faster and stronger has to be beneficial.

My weight-training involves squats, pull-ups, arnold presses, biceps and triceps curls amongst others. Nothing specific, it's all pretty standard training

Millionaire

I think in my experience , if you want to get fit, as in shape you and loose weight and blubber then there may not be enough "fitness" training in some MA clubs. depending on what they train for.

Ok you may loose some weight.

I have seen more over weight MAs than over weight marathon runners!

Bruce lee called running "The king of all exercises"

If you want to shape up there is an excellent program and book called body for life. amazing results in 12 weeks and it is not a gimmick and no starvation diets either. look at www.bodyforlife.com

Roper

And if you want to look like a lean mean animalistic stud, nothing but nothing beats sprints, especially hill sprints! HUH!

What Millionaire said mostly, but also....
Some MA's concentrate on self defence, which is y'know, whatever you're into. In my experience they tend to be the less strenuous, mostly due to a long time spent on technique and talking about what they're doing.

The best classes for fitness tend to have a lot less talk and a lot more umph. Anyway you'll know once you walk in and see a lot of people sweating and moving athletically rather than standing around nursing their pot bellies

It would help if your question was a little more specific. Are you a martial artist looking for tips or are you a newbie looking for where to go or........

Millionaire

what sort of rates does a personal trainer charge per hour.

Was thinking in Sept of getting one for a while to push me on the weights. (doing no weight training ).


are they expensive.

any good web sites for any in dublin?

Thanks

G

sound_wave

Instead of paying for a personal trainer, get a mate to help you or someone in the gym your friendly with, do your weight sessions together. They can spot you and visa-vera, and give much needed encouragement to get that extra few reps in when you need it.

walshb

I have to say that weights in any sport that requires speed and reflexes, such as Muay Thai, boxing, karate etc etc should really be kept to an absolute minimum as it can slow the muscles and tighten them so that you can lose the most important element of combat sport (speed). I'm not saying do zero weights, just as little as possible....Fitness I believe is best achieved by heavy bag and pad work, sparring.....(tough controlled sparring) and a lot of road work. Nothing better for the build up of the lungs and cardiovascular muscles than a hard run. It's amazing and most boxers will do 20-30 miles a week. It's where they gain their endurance and stamina. Skipping is another great form of fitness exercise......

walshb

Just realised: if your not into any particular sport and just want to keep fit, road work all the way....

mark.leonard

walshb wrote:

I have to say that weights in any sport that requires speed and reflexes, such as Muay Thai, boxing, karate etc etc should really be kept to an absolute minimum as it can slow the muscles and tighten them so that you can lose the most important element of combat sport (speed).

Lifting heavy weights works your fast twitch muscle fibres which makes you faster - assuming you are being smart by stretching and maintaining your technique work. This is one of the reasons why olympic sprinters do a lot of heavy lifting.

walshb

Mark, weights I'm sure are great for building up the muscles and could be very beneficial for sprinters or Rugby players. I was thinking more of reflex and speed. They are generally considered to slow a person down. You only have to go into a gym and see some of the 'he-men' there. Milk would turn faster. For gaining muscle and a certain amount of strength, go for it. To keep greasy fast and supple....leave the weights well alone. As for this 'fibre twitch' stuff. I don't mean to sound patronising, but to me that's just yuppy talk...keep it to plain English...no offence, I have heard the term before and questioned it....

Millionaire

Yeah road work is the best. as I said you rarely see an overweight marathon runner!

re weights. I do not want to be a body builder or anything like that. and I am not competing no more.

I just want to do weights because, the work out has many physical and mental benefits.

I do not want to work out with a buddy either. i d rather have a pro PT come in , and work me, as a better work rate and motivation is what I want.

I just want to find out what a personal trainer would charge you for 1 or 2 sessions a week.

any ideas?

Roper

As for this 'fibre twitch' stuff. I don't mean to sound patronising, but to me that's just yuppy talk...keep it to plain English...no offence, I have heard the term before and questioned it....

Yeah, science can be yuppiesh alright. Those boffins with their empirical methods and 'proof'. Who do they think they are.
We've hashed this one out before man, fast twitch muscles actually exist. It's not like we're talking about alien abductions, they're not a theory. It's fact.

I do not want to work out with a buddy either. i d rather have a pro PT come in , and work me, as a better work rate and motivation is what I want.
I just want to find out what a personal trainer would charge you for 1 or 2 sessions a week.
any ideas?

Wouldn't have a clue about pricing, but sometimes there's nothing better than a pro to give you the right advice. Everyone who's ever lifted so much as a rock thinks they know it all!

You could get Rainier Wolfcastle from the Simpsons... "Now lets go to the bench press so I can shout slogans at you...."

Clive

walshb wrote:

Mark, weights I'm sure are great for building up the muscles and could be very beneficial for sprinters or Rugby players. I was thinking more of reflex and speed. They are generally considered to slow a person down. You only have to go into a gym and see some of the 'he-men' there. Milk would turn faster. For gaining muscle and a certain amount of strength, go for it. To keep greasy fast and supple....leave the weights well alone. As for this 'fibre twitch' stuff. I don't mean to sound patronising, but to me that's just yuppy talk...keep it to plain English...no offence, I have heard the term before and questioned it....

Well modern sports science and thus the high performance training schemes of most combat sports in most countries (including boxing) directly contradict you, so unless you have some actual evidence to offer to support your opinions, I don't think too many people are going to take them seriously.

walshb

Clive wrote:

Well modern sports science and thus the high performance training schemes of most combat sports in most countries (including boxing) directly contradict you, so unless you have some actual evidence to offer to support your opinions, I don't think too many people are going to take them seriously.

Clive, I'm not anti weighlifting, but I've boxed for many ys and trained with hundreds of boxers in many gyms in many countres and not only did the boxers not lift weights, I never actually seen a weight in a boxing gym, so don't try tell me what boxers do and do NOT do. Weights is not on a boxers agenda and for most combat sports that require speed and mobility weights would play a very slight role in the training for that sport. Roper, call it what you like. I'm from the old fashioned school of training that's been in existence from day 1 and I've never heard the term until someone I worked with started spouting on about it. I'm not dismissing it, I'm just wary of people who throw around these 'fancy' terms as if the world should stop and listen to them. As for the topic at hand. If you want to get fit, run, skip, jump, stretch, cycle, swim, squat train, pad work, play tennis, etc etc. If you want muscles, upper body strength, a fine looking physique...lift weights. Just for the record I have a lot of admiration for these guys that spend 3-4 hrs lifting weights every day. The dedication is amazing and they really are committed. As for calling them athletes or fit, I'm not too sure, but by god they are 110% committed to what they do.....

mark.leonard

I am not throwing around terms to get attention at all. If science wasn't relevant to sporting endevours then Sports Science wouldn't be such a large field.

I train in the Galway Boxing club, they have weights in one corner of the gym, basics stuff like a bench and a lat pull down machine. I have seen boxers using them.

Including some weight training in a combat athletics training program is a sensible thing to do. I am not saying you should put on 10 kilos of non-functional muscle at the expense of your technique, which would slow you down, but simply add in some heavy lifting to improve your speed (this relationship between heavy weights and fast twitch muscle fibre is well proven and not something I made up) as part of a balanced training program.

Dave Joyce

First and foremost Walshb I know where you're coming from as I never did weights in my entire time training MA and actually my MT instructor Arjarn Panya Kraitus would agree with you about not doing any weight training, BUT my wife qualified as Fitness Instructor/Personal Trainer a while back and she has changed my whole concept (not an easy task believe me) towards resistance training. I can guarantee you if you've trained for any lenght of time in Boxing/MA without resistance training you will have a muscle imbalance due to overtraining one set of muscles continually. This may manifest itself without any problems (or with problems such injuries, losing power etc.) but once I gave it a go with correct instruction/proper advice I found a huge difference in all areas of my training particularly power. Although I'm a fat *uck at the mo' cause I'm trying to fight some very old injuries including whiplash from a RTA I am always trying to keep my weight down so with proper instruction resistance training will also help you to lose weight.
Millionaire I think the going rate for Personal Trainers is about 35euro per hour, but may be more in da big smoke! However, don't listen to that crap about asking guys in the gym to help as some of them guys do things from the Stone Age including contra indicated exercises and I believe the money would be well spent on a Pro, trainer that is, not streetwalker!. However, try to get someone who comes recommeded to you. Anyway with a name like that surely you can well afford it

Millionaire

so 35 euro. once a week full body work out with a trainer pushing you to hell would be money well spent.

pay a pro get in , do the job, work hard, and forget about it until the next session!

No I am not rich, but I am Visualizing, hence the Millionaire.
Fake it until you make it!

Musashi

Regarding weight training and boxers,I think the main reason they don't want to build more muscle is to make weight for competition.If they want to move up a weight division do they just put on ten kilos of blubber or ten kilos of muscle?
Weights can make you stronger without adding bulk as they teach the muscle to recruit muscle fibres more efficiently long before the need to build extra muscle comes into play.If it were that easy to bulk up there'd be no soft bodies around!
As for weights slowing you down,look at Tyson in his day or any 100 metre sprinter.As for saying big muscles are ok for sprinters but not boxers? These guys are both (possibly) looking for Olympic medals .Do you think any sprinter will do weights if it slowed him down?
Fast twitch versus slow twitch muscle fibres,look at a marathon man-slow twitch high endurance,and a sprinter-bulkier high output fast twitch muscle fibres. A blend of these is needed for a boxer,the endurance to go 15 rounds with the explosive power to end it in the first round.
So a powerlifter or body builder work out isn't suitable for a boxer but elements can be taken from either to aid the overall development.Not everyone lifting weights is a meat head or so focused on their own goals that they don't realise the different needs of other sports would be.
WalshB,head to the fitness forum on boards and ask Jak or Logic1 about lifting,muscle fibre and whatnot.They are BodyBuilders but have also rowed,Boxed and done MA as well as studying how and why muscle works and grows.I know body builders with doctorates so they may be more informed than people think,don't just assume.
Millionaire,if your in Dublin PM Logic as he has a standing invite to the lads on Fitness to go and lift with him in Westwood Gym afaik.He'll show you good lifting technique and what hits which muscles,origins and insertions,all that good stuff.And the vomiting isn't as frowned on as it is in some more yuppie Gyms

walshb

Musashi wrote:

Regarding weight training and boxers,I think the main reason they don't want to build more muscle is to make weight for competition.If they want to move up a weight division do they just put on ten kilos of blubber or ten kilos of muscle?
As for weights slowing you down,look at Tyson in his day or any 100 metre sprinter.As for saying big muscles are ok for sprinters but not boxers? These guys are both (possibly) looking for Olympic medals .Do you think any sprinter will do weights if it slowed him down?



Mushashi, I agree with most of what you have said. There are certainly cases where boxers have used weights. All I said is that weights are well down the list of priorities for a boxer. If a boxer wants to move up in weight by more than is natural, sure...weights can be very helpful. But he will pay a price, one likely result is the loss of 'snap' from his punches and his mobility and flexibility will suffer. Any boxer in the 12-13 stone category who wants to move to heavyweight (Roy Jones) usually will do some weight training to put on muscle and weight. This is an extreme example as naturally he would find it close to impossible to add the extra bulk. Look what appened to Jones??, fair enough he won the heavyweight title off the worst champ in history (Ruiz), but he suffered two KO losses to guys he normaly would have whupped. He lost a lot of his reflexes which were his key asset in the ring. As for Tyson, weights didn't give him his speed, power and geneal savagery. The guy was naturally built like that. You only have to watch the tapes of him thru history to realise this. There is no way on earth that Tyson would be punching as fast as he did, by weights. Weights were not significant in his early career. Maybe he did them after prison or in prison, but certainly not in his Prime. One last thing, any boxer moving up in weight to challenge the heavies that needs weight training to add the bulk, will be at a distinct disadvantage when fighting the natural heavyweight, who does not need weights to add weight (the true heavies)

hairybeanbag

Roper wrote:

Yeah, science can be yuppiesh alright. Those boffins with their empirical methods and 'proof'. Who do they think they are.
We've hashed this one out before man, fast twitch muscles actually exist. It's not like we're talking about alien abductions, they're not a theory. It's fact.


I have to say this 'use of scientific names' really gets on my nerves, I've been weightlifting close to 15yrs now and have never heard expressions such as "fast twitch muscles" ever been used... the only people that would come out with these terms are the so called 'intellects' trying to sound like they know a little but in reality they dont know squat.

Roper

Hmm, same syntax as walshb, same expressions, same mistake when using the quote tags................ hairybeanbag, you wouldn't happen to be walshb would you?
This is the 2nd time you've tried to flame me "buddy", I didn't bite the first time and I won't bite now.

walshb

Roper, how insulting of you to suggest that I am using an Alias to argue my case, shame on you Roper...........Not everyone on this thread has the same views as you or some others

Roper

Shame on me? Shame on me? How's the oxygen on the high ground there? Alright Mary Whitehouse I'll take you on your word. You're not hairybeanbag.

hairybeanbag

Roper, I dont know who this walshb guy is but i assure you that i am not him.... I dont mean to come across as having a go at you the reason i commented the way i did was because after reading some of your posts about fiber twitch muscles and the like it just seems to me that you are one of these guys who spend more time posing and trying to sound like they know it all rather then just getting down and doing the training.'i know lots of guys like this in the gym and it really bugs me.....

mark.leonard

I actually posted about fast twitch muscles to begin with. If you have been lifting weights as long as you say and never heard of fast/slow twitch muscle fibres then you should really read up on them as it would help you improve your training regimen.

hairybeanbag

Hello Mark. OK, they do exist as I have read on the internet about it. However, you may as well be looking into a black hole as it made no real sense to me. I'm an ordinary guy who has been lifting weights for quite sometime and I can't see it benefiting me at this stage. Either way I'm not that obsessed with lifting weights. I still believe it's relatively a new term, devised by a bunch of college heads who probably have never attempted to lift weights at all

Roper

it just seems to me that you are one of these guys who spend more time posing and trying to sound like they know it all rather then just getting down and doing the training.

Not that I feel the need to defend my training regime to you.... but .... how can you possibly make that assumption based on my posts here? Is it because I read up on things you think I'm a poser? Maybe you should talk to the posers in the gym instead of coming on here and having a go at someone whos training you know NOTHING about. So like I said, here's a short explanation.

I don't "lift weights" for liftings sake. I lift specifically for the purpose of improving my MA. So when it comes down to it, the less of my limited time I spend in the gym, and the more time I spend on the mat training for skill, the better.
Thats why I try to maximise the time I have, and learning about what muscle groups to hit and in what ways, suits me better than just going in to lift a few weights... have a go etc.
And how I maximise that is by trying new things that people who know more than I (sports scientists) and seeing if I get results. Now maybe you're from the 'old skool' and think, just get on with it, and there's merit in that. But why not get on with it in the best way possible? That way none of your time is wasted doing exercises or lifts that have no benefit in your given sport?

Example, when I started lifting weight when i was 17 or so, bicep curls were damn near everything. If you had big biceps you were the sh1t and must be an animal. But if you sit back and examine your training and what muscles you use, you say 'oh wait, what the f*ck do I need big biceps for?" and you stop training them and replace them with something more effective. The result is better performance and strength/speed in the areas you need most.

Dagon

I'm far from an expert, but all I can say is - keep it simple! Over the past year I have started working on bodyweight calisthenics, and I find it very, very effective and fun to do.

No gym, no equipment, no fees and I feel and look much fitter than ever!

You may love him or hate him, but the man who helped me out is Matt Furey. Here is an example of his attitude:

"Many of my students have been told by their trainers and gurus that if they want a lean body, they must exercise long and hard.

If you look at the weights, stair climbers, treadmills, bikes, and ellipticals you
will find them, suffering away to be lean. It’s a load of crapola. And it
doesn't work.

You can do MORE for your body with 15 minutes of bodyweight calisthenics
done Combat Conditioning style than you ever will in an hour or two on those
machines."

I got his Combat Conditioning book, and it seems to contain everything I need to maintain a healthy body. It's a simple book, with just a list of bodyweight excercises you can do. Every day I try to do a different combination of excercises, and they always leave me feeling great (they aren't easy though) I combine it with meditation also.

I don't miss the gym at all. Furey is a little anti-weight lifting, check out what he says on his site about how unhealthy it can be for the body:

www.mattfurey.com/

This is the book I am using:
http://www.mattfurey.com/conditioning_book.html

P.S. I got lazy for a few months last year, and stopped excercising. I didn't seem to lost any of what I had gained, which was strange. It seems to build functional muscle, as opposed to unnatural poser muscles you get from lots of weights. Btw, I also spent some time in the gym before I started on that Furey book... I gave it up after a few weeks into the new programme.

Clive

walshb wrote:

Clive, I'm not anti weighlifting, but I've boxed for many ys and trained with hundreds of boxers in many gyms in many countres and not only did the boxers not lift weights, I never actually seen a weight in a boxing gym, so don't try tell me what boxers do and do NOT do.

Contact any progressive high performance boxing scheme in an industrialised country and tell them why they're training Olympic athletes all wrong then.

I've never seen weights in virtually any sports club, but that doesn't mean that people there, particularly high level athletes don't or shouldn't use them.

You seem to be confusing resistance training with bodybuilding and bulking up - the training programme for each sport needs to be catered individually.

Your experience of "never actually seen a weight in a boxing club" doesn't contradict the verifiable results of top level athletes using proper scientific methods.

walshb

Clive mate. I have never seen any boxers I trained with weight train. Now if you're a boxer I'll try to see where you are coming from. If not, you are not in a position to tell me what a boxer does and does not do. I've been involved in the sport for yrs and still am. I also have various discussions on respected boxing sites with experts from all over the world and they agree that weight training and boxing DO NOT MIX. Now who's telling the truth Clive. Where are you getting this idea of boxers using weights. You must be reading it or maybe you have seen weights in a gym...big deal...the bottom line is that weight training in boxing has always been kept to a minimum. Read my point about boxers trying to put on an unnatural amount of weight. They will then consider the area of weight training...

mark.leonard

I don't see a point in arguing with you any further Walshb, you seem particularly determined not to open your mind to anything you don't already know or believe in, and more power to you.
I am of the opinion that there is always someone who knows more than me, so I am constantly trying to find these people to learn more, but I appreciate this is not everyone's approach and I can respect that.

mark.leonard

hairybeanbag wrote:

Hello Mark. OK, they do exist as I have read on the internet about it. However, you may as well be looking into a black hole as it made no real sense to me. I'm an ordinary guy who has been lifting weights for quite sometime and I can't see it benefiting me at this stage.

What goals are you trying to acheive with your weightlifting?

walshb

Mark, who said we were arguing. It's a good topic. I happen to disagree with others, so WHAT......I suppose sometimes when I see or read a particular comment that I know 100% to be inaccurate I get a little annoyed if I can use that description. Look it's simple and I'll leave it on this. On a scale of 1-10, weights figures at 1 in terms of a boxers priority. I can't be any more generous than that. It's not zero, just very low down the list

Colm_OReilly

While training with teh Irish High Performance Boxing Team in preparation for Athens last year we did weights, sometimes up to four times a week.

Check out a book called "Explosive Lifting for Sports" by Human Kinetics, one of the best by far I've seen on resistance training for Sports.

Also, plenty of running, as advocated by next to nearly everyone.

Just Chill,
Colm

Millionaire

Colm_OReilly wrote:

While training with teh Irish High Performance Boxing Team in preparation for Athens last year we did weights, sometimes up to four times a week.


Colm

did you box for ireland?

G

walshb

Colm_OReilly wrote:

While training with teh Irish High Performance Boxing Team in preparation for Athens last year we did weights, sometimes up to four times a week.

If what you say is true, I can only imagine that the weight training wasn't anything close to intense. Remember I didn't say no weights, just very little.
I'll take what you are saying with a 'pinch of salt'............

Musashi

I have seen amateur boxers using weights,but mainly lighter weights for more reps and honestly felt they were wasting the time they did spend on it.A little research would have served them better than just "Getting in there and on with it approach"
I mean how often do you see lads in the Weights Room with zero plan?
A bit of curling,now some ab work,a little squating,think I'll do some back and on and on! The same guy goes home thinking he killed himself in the gym for two hours so it must be good.........................Nope! Ideal duration for high intensity work like that is three quarters to one hour.That's it.After this point most folks will have depleted their glycogen and test. etc. and will actually be driving their body into a (here comes the science bit) catabolic state.
Can you think of anything worse than murdering your ass in the Gym only to be getting smaller and weaker?? This is where research and science can help every athlete to improve in the most efficient way possible.
For example, would you tell all boxers in a club to go run 15 miles in a bin liner?
Making no distinction between ages,fitness levels or stage of prep.?
Or would you have em strap on a Heart Rate Monitor and go at 60-80% for a set duration?Do you want steady state aerobic effort or something like wind sprints or Interval Runs like Steve Collins showed the benefits of? A round of boxing isn't steady state,it's short periods of high demand with intervals of less strenous effort.Does it not make sense to train for what you will be doing?
Running is a great exercise,if it's done properly at the right intensity!
Same with weights work,it's not even about lifting big iron,it's how and when you do it as well.You'll get better results strictly working a muscle with 20kilos than cheating with 50kilos.
And don't get me started on the numbnuts throwing punchs holding dumbbells!! Who told em that was a good way to train the punch? Yet so many young lads do just that!

Also, for the lads loving the body weight work outs,have a look at Scrappers site!
Body By Fish

Train Hard,Fight Easy

mark.leonard

walshb wrote:

Mark, who said we were arguing. It's a good topic. I happen to disagree with others, so WHAT......I suppose sometimes when I see or read a particular comment that I know 100% to be inaccurate I get a little annoyed if I can use that description. Look it's simple and I'll leave it on this. On a scale of 1-10, weights figures at 1 in terms of a boxers priority. I can't be any more generous than that. It's not zero, just very low down the list

The problem with the internet is that you are 100% sure something is inaccurate and I am just as sure it is!
My main beef is your refusal to accept that lifting heavy weights increases your speed, as part of a training regimen this have been proven to be true by many people far wiser than you or I and shouldn't be up for debate.

walshb

Mark, improves your speed where. On the racetrack or football pitch. When you say speed, there are so many aspects. Do you run faster, take off faster. Maybe so, I'm not dismissing that. But I am dismissing that lifting heavy weights for Boxing increases your speed, because it DOES NOT. That I know for definite and so do experts in the fight game. So I'm agreeing with you to a certain extent that lifting heavy weights with the proper training regime may increase your speed in Athletics or Rugby, but not in Boxing. Roy Jones is a prime example, not only did his speed not increase (punching), it actually decrease when he bulked up from weight training. I don't care what your so called sports scientists say, maybe they are right for 99.9% of sports, but if they are saying that lifting heavy weights together with your boxing regime, your punch speed will increase....that is 100% inaccurate.....Can you show me any article that relates the theory to boxing???

mark.leonard

Roy Jones got slower because he bulked up, not becasue he did weights. I am not talkign about gaining weight, just lifting heavy weights.

To be clear, I meant increases your speed in general be it throwing a punch, a kick, running rowing or a dancing "los penetrada".

I will have a look and see if I can find an article relating it to combat sports on the net, maybe Clive might help me out?

Either way it is a scientifically verifiable result and I see heavy lifting increase fighters speed on a continual basis.

Millionaire

I remember Rick Roufus really bulked up once. and he lost some major fight.

Later the said, he trained wrong and the bodybuilding bulking up he did, was not the way for a kickboxer to go.

I assume he must still do weights, but not body building routines.

walshb

OK, he bulked up....and I'm not 100% sure but I believe his main method to put on this unnatural amount of weight was weight training. How else I ask would he have done it, apart from Steroids. He certainly didn't eat it. Weights played a big role in that gain I would say. One other guy is Holyfield and it is well known thr out boxing that he did do more than others in the weights room. This all began when he moved from Cruiser to heavy. He gained two stone, and if you have seen his fights at Cruiser and heavy you like everyone else would have noticed his decrease in speed. Now that could be attributed to the xtra weight, but weights didn't increase his speed, and more importantly he and his team didn't expect them to...No boxer ever does.
Mark my main point of disagreement is your use of the term 'heavy weights'. Heavy weights and boxing do not mix. Weights to a very slight extent, but not heavy weight lifting. There is no boxer in history that has improved his speed thru weights and no boxer I've ever heard has said otherwise. The two main assets in boxing that are 'god given' are punching power and speed. You are born with them. You can improve them, but not like you can improve you stamina or body definition. You either have them or you don't. And no amount of weights will improve your punching speed....The best method for any fighter in a combat sport to improve punching speed is to just throw punches all day long..........straight forward really

columok

walshb,

Mark has been very clear about it but you dont seem to get it. Some weight training is to bulk up. It generally isnt for functional sports specific strength, rather it is for increasing muscle mass. Mark is talking about certain specific types of weight training that doesn't add bulk but trains certain muscles to be able to respond faster.

Colum

Roper

Since this is going nowhere, I propose we change some of the terms people are getting caught up on.

For weights, read resistance training. ie. Something resisiting you in your normal range of motion. Like say a weight, but also your own body, a chute, someone else...

Sports specific resistance training helps athletes improve their speed if trained correctly.

walshb

Mark, below is a link fro the CBZ website concerning weights and boxing. It's a good read and is not totally against the idea of weights in boxing....Thought you might find it interesting:

http://p068.ezboard.com/fcyberboxingzonefrm1.showMessageRange?topicID=2405.topic&start=1&stop=20

walshb

columok wrote:

walshb,

Mark has been very clear about it but you dont seem to get it. Some weight training is to bulk up. It generally isnt for functional sports specific strength, rather it is for increasing muscle mass. Mark is talking about certain specific types of weight training that doesn't add bulk but trains certain muscles to be able to respond faster.

Colum

Get what, Mark was very clear....he said that lifting heavy weights increases your speed...I said maybe so, but not in boxing...so Colm what exactly is your point???. I disagree and I've put my reasons to Mark for this...would you like if I just agreed with Mark so then all is OK. We're having an intersting discussion, I think so anyway and I respect his points, as he makes a lot of good ones. I just happen to disagree when it comes to heavy weights and boxing.....

BrianD3

Walshb, you have a poor understanding and a blinkered view of what weight training is all about. Just looking back through the thread I see comments about "he-men", posing, bulking up, steroids etc. in relation to weight training. This is a very narrow minded view. If you (and others involved in boxing) were more informed you might begin to see potential benefits of weight training for boxers.

I suggest you read the following article which discusses this topic in detail and includes references to sports science papers. I won't post the article here due to length and copyright and don't have a direct link to it. The title is:
Developing a Strength-Power Program for Boxing
William P. Ebben, CSCS, and Douglas O. Blackard, CSCS, ATCIL U.S. Olympic Education Center Northern Michigan University.

It can be found by going to:
http://groups.google.com
and searching for:
Ebben Blackard strength boxing

.

walshb

BrianD3 wrote:

Walshb, you have a poor understanding and a blinkered view of what weight training is all about. Just looking back through the thread I see comments about "he-men", posing, bulking up, steroids etc. in relation to weight training. This is a very narrow minded view. If you (and others involved in boxing) were more informed you might begin to see potential benefits of weight training for boxers.

Brian, I have a good understanding of weights. Now this Steroid thing you talk about. Where did I mention this in relation to lifting weights. I only said that Roy Jones bulked up one of two ways, he either used steroids or he weight trained. So what's your gripe here Brian?. Secondly when I referred to 'he men', I wasn't being insulting. It's just an ajective to describe their physique. I have a tremendous amount of respect for weightlifters, their dedication is almost unrivaled. They put in serous work in the gym and all credit to them. I just happen to think (and the vast majority of people involved in boxing) that a boxer lifting heavy weights is not good and it will more likely slow him down (punch rate and speed). It wil certainly not increase punch rate and speed.

walshb

Brian, I read you article and it''s a good read. A lot of it is true I'm sure......Solovey (16) reported increased velocity of punches following a
6-month period of weight training exercise with dumbbells and medicine
balls, Koryak (1....

Dumbbells and medcine ball. A medicne ball has always been part of a boxing gym. Do dumbbels really equate to heavy weights???. Like I've said before, weight training in boxing is not a complete 'no no'. It's just down th list on priorities. I do agree that if you train with light to medium weights and let's say you shadow box with these weights, You will find that your arms are a lot lighter when you stop. This over a period of course and yes this could increase the speed of your punches. Ali used to run with LEAD boots, and he said it gave him extra bounce in the ring when they were taken off.. So I'm no toally dismissing the theory. But it is he heavy weights that I don't believe will increase your mobility or speed.....