Testing my Navigation & Layout

Rollo Tamasi

Hi Guys,

Its early days in the development of this site, only started this week, but nonetheless i would like to get some early feedback. So far its just the skeleton layout that i have really started

The menu will obviously be tidied up later.

The site itself is for some Waterford based DJ's who have mixes to download.

http://www.chef-shop.com/test1.htm

Rollo Tamasi

ohh yeah, in case ye where wondering chef-shop is not the URL that the site will be hosted at when completed. Its just a domain i own.

mneylon

Is there a non-flash version?

ninebeanrows

One thing i'd suggest is distinguishing the different names of
the guys i dont really know what im clicking as the names are
all together and kinda mixed up.


That's all really i have to say

Cheers and good luck

Rollo Tamasi

no there is no non flash version. I don't really see the need to develop for a "html visitor" when i can use flash to create a better website. Thats just my opinion thou.

I know what you mean wheathercheck about the names, i'll probably add some kind of "identifier" or description to each persons name to distinguish the type of music they like and stuff.

But besides from that what did ye think?

aidan_walsh

Crap, crap and crap again. Found it hard to find my way around, peoples names didn't lead to what was expected ect. Try harder.

ninebeanrows

Hi again i meant by the fact that the names are all mushed together
of on will and when you click on onw you dont really know what your
clicking on. Spread them out or something or give each persons
a different colour or something to that affect.

It's not brilliant but 6/10 for me

mneylon

Using Flash for the sake of it does not make it any better.
There are many reasons also why using Flash only is bad idea.

rsynnott

Am I the only one who refuses to view flash websites, nowadays? There's really no point in them; they're inevitably worse than html.

Rollo Tamasi

aidan_walsh wrote:

Crap, crap and crap again.

Thanks for being so blunt. I'm sure everything you've tried your hand at has smelt of roses

maxheadroom

rsynnott wrote:

Am I the only one who refuses to view flash websites, nowadays? There's really no point in them; they're inevitably worse than html.

No, you're not. They also always seem to feel sluggish when compared to a well written HTML site.

Rollo Tamasi

I know I’ll have to change the positioning of the names, those buttons that are there at the moment are only stop-gap. The things I wanted to get feedback the most on are the illustrations of the person, dj mixer and turntable and the speed of the scroll.

As for the argument over flash and html...

I can't stand basic HTML websites, I find a lot of them boring and simple, and seldom would I find a HTML site which would interest me design wise. Web Development has come a long way since the mid 90's when HTML was standard. Flash allows for good interaction and if done correctly will make your website stand out from others.

Rsynnott - what are your reasons for arguing against flash over HTML?

rsynnott

Rollo Tamasi wrote:

Rsynnott - what are your reasons for arguing against flash over HTML?

First, because it's about the only thing I still need 32bit libraries for. But that's just a quibble.

You need to be using a graphical terminal to view it; most html websites can be viewed on a text console.

The modern UI has been designed by thousands of highly skilled professionals over about 30 years. The UI of the average flash web app, on the other hand, has been designed in a few days, by someone with questionable knowledge of UI design. This leads to horrors like odd variant scroll bars and buttons, and makes a site far more awkward to navigate.

Flash is inclined to make NOISES. I prefer things not to make noises unless I ask them.

Flash is completely non-accessible. It's completely unusable for the blind.

You can't deep-link into it.

I've never seen a useful flash website yet, or one that was anything better than a complete annoyance to use.

Serbian

There's a slight problem with the text of the links, you need to click exactly on the text for the button to work. To fix it, create a key frame in the 'Hit' state of the button and draw a rectangle covering the whole text.

cgarvey

I echo the flash concerns...

You need some sort of non-clickable separators between the names.. the links don't match up. I clicked the spaced area between Martin and Roche, and got Daz' page.

The illustration of Dave is good, but is a bit too prominent, I think.. probably to do with the colours.

Menu wasn't all that clear (I didn't know I had to click on it to get the actual menu, I just thought that it was empty). Maybe it should be on a tab looking shaded area or something.

HTH

Rollo Tamasi

thanks for the input lads,
I'll probably post a link to the website once its finished in this forum.

Fionn

regarding the question of Flash!
generally speaking i tend to click on the "skip flash intro" button if there's one if not sometimes i just browse away from the site. I guess i'm not much impressed with animations and stuff moving around the screen etc. and mostly my speakers aren't switched on so i wouldn't hear stuff either.

however i do think some of the sites offering Flash games and other entertaining applets are very well done and really shows how powerful it can be.

mewso

Fionn wrote:

however i do think some of the sites offering Flash games and other entertaining applets are very well done and really shows how powerful it can be.

What flash is best used for imho. Not for a site designed to provide information. If basic html sites are boring should we be bringing back the marquee? From a presentation point of view a banner should not take up half the screen so that you have to scroll down the screen to see the actual text in it's entirety.

hostyle

Rollo Tamasi wrote:

As for the argument over flash and html...

I can't stand basic HTML websites, I find a lot of them boring and simple, and seldom would I find a HTML site which would interest me design wise. Web Development has come a long way since the mid 90's when HTML was standard. Flash allows for good interaction and if done correctly will make your website stand out from others.

Bloody artists ... the lot of them should be taken out and shot.

The internet is about exchange of information believe it or not, not gimmickry or "interaction". My browser is an application - and I trust its UI - not your Flash mini-app or its retarded clunky sideways scroll. Where the intuitiveness in that?

mneylon

hostyle wrote:

Bloody artists ... the lot of them should be taken out and shot.

The internet is about exchange of information believe it or not, not gimmickry or "interaction". My browser is an application - and I trust its UI - not your Flash mini-app or its retarded clunky sideways scroll. Where the intuitiveness in that?

Nicely put

Rollo Tamasi

ok then!
I can see this is a very one sided discussion on Flash so far. I do understand where ye are coming from with your opinions, i recoiginise that not all flash websites are good. I have seen awfull flash sites.

Is there anyone in this WEBMASTER/FLASH forum who actually likes flash on websites?

Legend_Killer

hostyle wrote:

Bloody artists ... the lot of them should be taken out and shot.

The internet is about exchange of information believe it or not, not gimmickry or "interaction". My browser is an application - and I trust its UI - not your Flash mini-app or its retarded clunky sideways scroll. Where the intuitiveness in that?

Oh god shoot me now, have you ever actually built an eLearning application? the way most people learn is through "interaction" which is why flash is considered the way forwards in many peoples eyes.

I love flash websites but only when done well...... done well meaning when it actually takes the aspects of flash that HTML cant implement and displays them in a manner that doesnt take an age to load up. if i see a pre loader then i automatically assume that the site isnt put together properly. If it is because theres so much content in the site then its time to revert back to HTML or maybe combine that with DHTML which can now provide some limited ammount of interaction.

all in all, flash is excellent and just because you dont know how to design with it doesnt mean that you shouldnt embrace the work of others that are making use of it.

rsynnott

hostyle wrote:

Bloody artists ... the lot of them should be taken out and shot.

It's not so much artists that are the problem, a good artist can produce a very nice, usable, beautiful website. It's those who THINK they're artists; they're the problem

I don't think ANYONE really likes flash websites. They were a popular gimmick around 2000, live Java applets all over the place and VRML and animated GIFS and DHTML weirdness and other abominations in the eye of god Let them die, already.

Rollo Tamasi

rsynnott wrote:

I don't think ANYONE really likes flash websites. They were a popular gimmick around 2000, live Java applets all over the place and VRML and animated GIFS and DHTML weirdness and other abominations in the eye of god Let them die, already.

I don't understand how you can be so arrogant as to dismiss the possibilities that flash can deliver to an audience. Surely you can learn something from it, and even if you think it’s been used inappropriately why don't you open up you eyes and mind to.... Flash Remoting...Flash Audio Streaming...E-Learning...Flash Video Conferencing....Flash Gaming....Macromedia Captivate & Flash Projector as a cross platform demonstration and learning tool. Wake Up Rsynnott its 2005.

I have used HTML, JavaScript, ASP & Coldfusion to deliver websites, as well as flash. I'm not going to turn a blind eye to a medium such as flash just because it can't be read by screen readers and so on......

98% of Internet Users are flash enabled. That’s a massive audience, and a popular choice for new media development, if you can't hack it then go live in a cave.

Rollo Tamasi

hostyle wrote:

your Flash mini-app or its retarded clunky sideways scroll. Where the intuitiveness in that?

http://www.csn.ul.ie/~hostyle/

Nice site mate.
I'm just loving the way you can call my navigation retarded.
Wheres the intuitiveness in that?

rsynnott

Rollo Tamasi wrote:

I don't understand how you can be so arrogant as to dismiss the possibilities that flash can deliver to an audience. Surely you can learn something from it, and even if you think it’s been used inappropriately why don't you open up you eyes and mind to.... Flash Remoting...Flash Audio Streaming...E-Learning...Flash Video Conferencing....Flash Gaming....Macromedia Captivate & Flash Projector as a cross platform demonstration and learning tool. Wake Up Rsynnott its 2005.

Exactly; Flash should be dead by now. There's nothing wrong with Flash games and cartoons, but basing a WEBSITE on it?

Show me just one usable flash-based website, and I'll relent

Damn, it's a pity the HELLO KITTY EXHIBITION COMMITTEE website is gone. It was a classic example of flash by the schizophrenic.

Rollo Tamasi wrote:

I have used HTML, JavaScript, ASP & Coldfusion to deliver websites, as well as flash. I'm not going to turn a blind eye to a medium such as flash just because it can't be read by screen readers and so on......

Why not try doing your websites in APL, or TIFFs, or large lumps of rock engraved with crap and delivered to your user's doors? Just because a technology is available doesn't mean it should necessarily be USED.

ColdFusion; meh, never saw the point; why pay for something like that?

ASP? Not in itself a bad platform (tho not a good one either; lets people away with doing silly things) but seems to attract a disproportionate number of mad people (see http://www.thedailywtf.com). ASP.NET is much better; if they'd get rid of silly things like "On Error Resume Next" it'd come close to being a decent platform.

JavaScript; no excuses for that. (In fairness, there are legitimate uses of JavaScript. About three of them).

=Rollo Tamasi wrote:

98% of Internet Users are flash enabled. That’s a massive audience, and a popular choice for new media development, if you can't hack it then go live in a cave.

That doesn't mean they like endless animated crap coming out of their screen when they're looking fora website.

I repeat the challenge; show me a usable, pleasant flash website which does something that can't be done with conventional weapons.

Serbian

Rollo Tamasi wrote:

http://www.csn.ul.ie/~hostyle/

Nice site mate.
I'm just loving the way you can call my navigation retarded.
Wheres the intuitiveness in that?

Many people have strong opinions on what Flash should and shouldn't me. Personally I'm not a fan of Flash, but I agree that it has it's place. The best uses of Flash I have seen have either been offline or online games (oh Roberto Baggio Magical Kicks, where are you? ).

The truth is, it isn't really that difficult to find a good use and a bad use of Flash, it's just all about personal preference.

The true test is typing "Flash is Evil" and "Flash is Cool" into Google!

Cool wins 3,570 to 698

rsynnott

Serbian wrote:

The truth is, it isn't really that difficult to find a good use

Er, what makes that in any way better than the same thing done with CSS, except the slowness, and the not obeying middle-clickness ("CTRL-click" for Windows users).[/quote]

Serbian wrote:

The true test is typing "Flash is Evil" and "Flash is Cool" into Google!

Cool wins 3,570 to 698

Meh. The majority of Americans, when polled, still say that Saddam Husein was directly involved in the WTC thing. Many people are irredemably stupid.

Rollo Tamasi

www.paulfrank.com

http://www.frenchconnection.com/index_1.htm

IMO, the two websites above made good use of flash to deliver their products.
French Connection - Very Stlyish
Paul Frank - Consistent to his fashion image

Learning
http://java.sys-con.com/read/44575_f.htm

Rollo Tamasi

rsynnott wrote:

Meh. The majority of Americans, when polled, still say that Saddam Husein was directly involved in the WTC thing. Many people are irredemably stupid.

Just stop thinking, get some sex or whatever your into.
Lighten up man

rsynnott

Rollo Tamasi wrote:

www.paulfrank.com

http://www.frenchconnection.com/index_1.htm

IMO, the two websites above made good use of flash to deliver their products.
French Connection - Very Stlyish

Eek. Would you actually prefer to use that THING to something that stayed still??!

Paul Frank - Consistent to his fashion image

This one insists I don't have the latest version of flash player, against all available evidence; I suspect it's confused by my operating system.

Learning
http://java.sys-con.com/read/44575_f.htm

Well, as long as you're not planning on writing APPLETS. Java is a lovely language for all sorts of purposes. But not APPLETS. Re-arrange the letters, remove one or two letters and substitute other letters, and what do you get? SATAN, that's what

Just stop thinking, get some sex or whatever your into.
Lighten up man

Oh, this is just my way of unwinding after a hard day. Sex can wait.

angry_fox

hostyle wrote:

Bloody artists ... the lot of them should be taken out and shot.

The internet is about exchange of information believe it or not, not gimmickry or "interaction". My browser is an application - and I trust its UI - not your Flash mini-app or its retarded clunky sideways scroll. Where the intuitiveness in that?

First off ive taken offence to your little remark. Would i have any last requests before i faced the firing squad? While i could argue with you about how the internet is so much more than just the "exchange of information" i wont cause as the old saying goes "Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat
you with experience"

While everyone here seems to have an undying hatred for flash, its not all bad. Flash is an excellent tool to create websites and great for interactivity with users especially for online tutorials. Also over comes browser incompatibilities and flash developers nowadays appear to be earning more than php/mysql/html experts. Flash is all about using your creativity to make something looks good for the user while keeping it simple for them. Flash is tool that in the right hands, can be used to do some great things but in the wrongs hands..........

Rollo, your sites need some work but if you need a hand just IM me.

hostyle

Rollo Tamasi wrote:

http://www.csn.ul.ie/~hostyle/

Nice site mate.
I'm just loving the way you can call my navigation retarded.
Wheres the intuitiveness in that?

Thats not a website, thats art. Plus its about 6 years old. What was your point by the way? You asked for opinions on your site - I gave you mine. I didn't ask for opinions on my old college homepage.

If you don't like my opinion, that fair enough - its something you should learn to accept when posting your work for review on highly public web sites.

optiplexgx270

Weathercheck wrote:

One thing i'd suggest is distinguishing the different names of
the guys i dont really know what im clicking as the names are
all together and kinda mixed up.


That's all really i have to say

Cheers and good luck

i agree fully maybe highlight tyhe name on mouse over?

jmcc

Flash is ok for somethings. Flash is bad for navigation without a HTML backup. This is because searchengines have to use an external parser to break the links and text out of flash. The way I, and most search engine operators think, if the site owner can't be arsed to provide decent navigation why should we bother to include it in our indices? The web still is a textual medium. If you are not in the search engines you are nowhere.

Regards...jmcc

Rollo Tamasi

jmcc wrote:

Flash is ok for somethings. Flash is bad for navigation without a HTML backup. This is because searchengines have to use an external parser to break the links and text out of flash. The way I, and most search engine operators think, if the site owner can't be arsed to provide decent navigation why should we bother to include it in our indices? The web still is a textual medium. If you are not in the search engines you are nowhere.

Regards...jmcc

Good man, excellent post.
I'll probably end up developing a html compliant version for the reasons you just mentioned.

Rollo Tamasi

rsynnott wrote:

Oh, this is just my way of unwinding after a hard day. Sex can wait.

lol

Fionn

this is sorta getting into a bit of a slagging match eh?

i guess if you ask people to review your site you can expect some comments may not be to your liking. I suppose in the end you have to go with what your satisfied with.

I've used flash as a learning/presentation tool before, what it can do is great as I'm sure are other animation software progs, but I'm not altogether convinced about a whole website made in flash tho.

What i would like to see is choice! if the user chooses not to run a script or applet whatever, shouldn't they have that choice? after all isn't it the user that the site is made for not the designer! A warning dialog or something would be good.

Along with slow flash sites another annoying thing i've noticed is an URL that comprises of an embedded PDF file, these tend to lock up the browser til the file is loaded, i shudder to think what thats like on narrowband, at least with flash you often get the option to skip and you can always browse away to someplace else.

hostyle

Legend_Killer wrote:

I love flash websites but only when done well...... done well meaning when it actually takes the aspects of flash that HTML cant implement and displays them in a manner that doesnt take an age to load up.

This is the same argument thrown out every time someone criticises Flash. Go on then - show me one good, well-done Flash website that couldn't have been implemented in HTML and loads quicker than a HTML vversion would. One that has actual content and isn't a game or other video masturbation - one where individual sections can be bookmarked, that can be indexed by search engines, and that works as well for poeple with disabilities as without.

Rollo Tamasi

optiplexgx270 wrote:

i agree fully maybe highlight tyhe name on mouse over?

I have changed the layout a little bit since i uploaded the files. I'll add more identifiying features to let the user know what each button leads to, add a css, change the height and width of the iFrames dispalying the HTML pages. And probably put an audio stream using flash remoting below the :

Home | Events | Archieved Mixes | Forum | Guestbook | Mailing List | Contact

menu.

There is much more features that need to be added. And don't worry lads, when its finished i'll post the link in here and ye can all have a go at riping it to bits!!!! (but get in line first!)

hostyle

Rollo Tamasi wrote:

www.paulfrank.com

http://www.frenchconnection.com/index_1.htm

IMO, the two websites above made good use of flash to deliver their products.
French Connection - Very Stlyish
Paul Frank - Consistent to his fashion image

FFS. Neither are usable whatsoever, all sorts of silly animation - every time you visit or click the same button again. Popup windows ... All sorts of waiting around and other visual masturbation - its supposd to be a website not a playstation game.

Rollo Tamasi

Fionn wrote:

this is sorta getting into a bit of a slagging match eh?

i guess if you ask people to review your site you can expect some comments may not be to your liking. I suppose in the end you have to go with what your satisfied with.

I've used flash as a learning/presentation tool before, what it can do is great as I'm sure are other animation software progs, but I'm not altogether convinced about a whole website made in flash tho.

What i would like to see is choice! if the user chooses not to run a script or applet whatever, shouldn't they have that choice? after all isn't it the user that the site is made for not the designer! A warning dialog or something would be good.

Along with slow flash sites another annoying thing i've noticed is an URL that comprises of an embedded PDF file, these tend to lock up the browser til the file is loaded, i shudder to think what thats like on narrowband, at least with flash you often get the option to skip and you can always browse away to someplace else.

hopefully the slagging match has ended now.

The site will be designed with the user in mind, giving them choice, your just going to have to wait till the project is completed to see a non flash based version thou!
I agree with your pdf comments. My father has a 56K connection, each time he accesses a pdf website, IE crashes.

rsynnott

hostyle wrote:

This is the same argument thrown out every time someone criticises Flash. Go on then - show me one good, well-done Flash website that couldn't have been implemented in HTML and loads quicker than a HTML vversion would. One that has actual content and isn't a game or other video masturbation - one where individual sections can be bookmarked, that can be indexed by search engines, and that works as well for poeple with disabilities as without.

They can't. because, erm, there's no such thing.

And yes, embedding PDFs and other nasty things in a web page without warning should be a death penalty offence

anthonymcg

Flash is all about adding value. The navigation on that site isn't really intuitive plus your using the same graphic and then slide scrolling across to different guys. Just don't see the benefit of it over a nicely designed CSS + Javascript solution.

mewso

rsynnott wrote:

ASP.NET is much better; if they'd get rid of silly things like "On Error Resume Next" it'd come close to being a decent platform.

Long gone. Try Catch has been there from the start with .Net, easily the best server side platform out there and way ahead with version 2.

Actually on this Flash row AJAX (terrible name) is worth looking at for an improved user experience. I honestly don't like a flash intro. Give me a menu with a link to "My flash stuff" so I can make the choice.

Legend_Killer

musician wrote:

Actually on this Flash row AJAX (terrible name) is worth looking at for an improved user experience. I honestly don't like a flash intro. Give me a menu with a link to "My flash stuff" so I can make the choice.

AJAX does look imopressive but is there much out there on it at the moment with regard to sites that will actually run through how to learn it step by step?

rsynnott

musician wrote:

Long gone. Try Catch has been there from the start with .Net, easily the best server side platform out there and way ahead with version 2.

But "On Error Resume Next" is STILL AVAILABLE. They should have gotten rid of it immediately. And it certainly is not the best server side platform out there; try Java.

mewso

rsynnott wrote:

But "On Error Resume Next" is STILL AVAILABLE. They should have gotten rid of it immediately. And it certainly is not the best server side platform out there; try Java.

Oh dear we have a choice. Try Java?, no thanks. We'll have to disagree on that one.

rsynnott

I think that ASP (and to some extent PHP) lower the bar a bit much; they allow people who aren't, to be honest, very good, to write interactive websites. "On error resume next" is a good example; it's a copout. Inevitably, these websites are never quite right; nearly all ASP websites with a db backend are vulnerable to SQL injection, for instance. Languages which force the user to learn a bit are better, IMO.

mewso

I think RAD, caching, server controls and native sql data access (with sql server stored procedures) are far preferable in a development world where sql injection is well documented and easily avoided using the aforementioned stored procedures. On Error Resume Next was left in Asp.Net (an important distinction from asp) to enable vb developers to make the transition. It will soon be gone I reckon. Developers can of course learn not to use it. We can expect them to want to learn can't we, not just force them.
Asp.Net 2 with server controls that will render valid xhtml and accessable content will raise the bar even more.

rsynnott

musician wrote:

I think RAD, caching, server controls and native sql data access (with sql server stored procedures) are far preferable in a development world where sql injection is well documented and easily avoided using the aforementioned stored procedures. On Error Resume Next was left in Asp.Net (an important distinction from asp) to enable vb developers to make the transition. It will soon be gone I reckon. Developers can of course learn not to use it. We can expect them to want to learn can't we, not just force them.
Asp.Net 2 with server controls that will render valid xhtml and accessable content will raise the bar even more.

But it ISN'T avoided, that's the problem. This is more a cultural problem than a language one; most ASP/database tutorials tell people to do things like: query = "SELECT * FROM mytable WHERE mycol = '" & myvar & "'", whereas I've never seen a PHP/database tutorial that didn't advocate the use of addslashes, or a JDBC tutorial that didn't use prepared statements. And stored procedures are, of course, database-specific.

What precisely do you mean by caching and native sql data access? Caching what?

No, you can quite reasonably force them not to use such a horribly dangerous construct. It should never have gone in in the first place, and should have been removed as soon as possible. Another horror (tho in fairness I'm fairly sure it's been addressed in ASP.NET) is the out-of-order boolean evaluation.

Goodness, yes, server controls which rended valid xhtml will raise the bar to where J2SE was in about 2001!