PS3 hard disk may include Linux as standard (!)

LookingFor

Homebrew and hobbyist development a-go-go from day one?

http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/06/09/news_6127219.html

This time, we're positioning the PS3 as a "supercomputer." But people won't recognize it as a computer unless we call it a computer, so we're going to run an OS on it. In fact, the Cell can run multiple OSes. In order to run the OSes, we need an HDD. So in order to declare that the PS3 is a computer, I think we'll have [the PS3's HDD] preinstalled with Linux as a bonus.

PCW: So Linux can be run on the Cell?

KK: Linux is legacy, but it will be a start. In the case of the Cell, operation systems are applications. The kernel will be running on the Cell, and multiple OSes will be running on top of that as applications. Of course, the PS3 can run Linux. If Linux can run, so can Lindows. Other PC Operating Systems can run too, such as Windows and Tiger (Max OS X 10.4), if the publishers want [them] to do so. Maybe a new OS might come out.

IPCW: Does that mean that we can expect applications that take advantage of the Cell, aside from games?

KK: As an example, HD video-editing software is basically the same as the nonlinear editing system used in broadcasting stations. What we're trying to do on the PS3 is that level of software. Nonlinear editing systems are incredible, but if it was done on the Cell, it would be even more incredible... The difference will be obvious. I think other PC applications, like photo-retouching software, will also be able to be done on the PS3. The user interface will also get interesting. In the case of the PC, users will have to wait for years between XP's UI to Longhorn's. But the PS3's UI will evolve much faster. For example, if we had an interface where we could control applications using gestures and words using the EyeToy, it would be like Minority Report. Of course, that kind of an evolution will also reflect on games. This will be the first form that [the Cell] will be spread. It can connect a keyboard, and it has all the necessary interfaces. It can run media, and it can run on a network. It's got such an all-around purpose, and it's open. It will become completely open if we equip it with Linux, and programmers will be able to do anything with it. It's the same thing with the graphics, since it's got the shaders.

A bit nerdy, but I'm very much there if I can code from Cell on my PS3 from day one! The most compelling reason to buy a HD, imo

steviec

http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/06/09/news_6127219.html


Thats the most interesting piece of next gen news since E3. It never even occurred to me but if they do go with it it could be a very good idea. I know the current consoles can run linux but only if you go to a lot of trouble setting it up. Coming with Linux by default is a whole other senario.

If its done properly they can have a 100% stable Linux install running well on the hardware and there'd be huge potential to use the console for pretty much anything you want. I'm very interested in seeing where they go with this. And Microsoft would certainly have the ability to do something similar with Windows if they wanted to go that route.

steviec

Oh I just posted this... guess you beat me to it!

LookingFor

steviec wrote:

Oh I just posted this... guess you beat me to it!

Re. your post here:

steviec wrote:

http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/06/09/news_6127219.html


Thats the most interesting piece of next gen news since E3. It never even occurred to me but if they do go with it it could be a very good idea. I know the current consoles can run linux but only if you go to a lot of trouble setting it up. Coming with Linux by default is a whole other senario.

If its done properly they can have a 100% stable Linux install running well on the hardware and there'd be huge potential to use the console for pretty much anything you want. I'm very interested in seeing where they go with this. And Microsoft would certainly have the ability to do something similar with Windows if they wanted to go that route.

On the latter point about MS including Windows, Kutaragi actually kind of taunts MS because they can't really do that - it'd be bad for their windows business, and for their PC partners potentially. Sony doesn't really have those obstacles with linux. The interview itself is actually longer than Gamespot posted, I'll get a translation of the whole thing up in a second..

The full interview re. Linux follows - it comes from a poster at Beyond3d (here: http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=23836):

Ken Kutaragi Interview by Hiroshige Goto - pt.2 : "Put a full-blown Linux on PS3 HDD"

The Age of Network Drive

G: PLAYSTATION 3 doesn't have a local HDD even though it boasts that much spec. Why?

K: We don't put an HDD in default. It's because it runs short no matter how much you add it. The next thing that will come is, without a doubt, a network drive. (A storage is) on a Cell server, you can access it via the network from anywhere. In your home, in your friend's home, from anywhere, you can see logically (the same network drive). Such a world.

However, the console itself requires HDD sometimes. So this time you can put a 2.5 inch HDD in there, 80GB and 120GB. It's very short, but it's for running an OS in a single console. Even though you have a tera-byte storage somewhere with a network drive, you have to have a drive in which an OS can run when you get an authentication as a single computer.

Put an OS To Be Seen As A Computer

G: Is it that you run an OS to use it as a computer?

K: What I find strange is that while we've been calling it as a computer all the time, in the same business world Nintendo affirms it's a toy, it's a toy, to the outside world. So, even though we make supercomputer-class things that require an export control, the offices regard it as a toy.

Even PlayStation 2 is seen as a game console though we made an awesome chip such as EE and run Linux on it. I'd thought it might become a bit better as Microsoft came from the IT world. But the awkward thing is that they don't say that as they don't want to break their own business. As they are thinking that it becomes a trouble for them if Xbox runs Windows, they are insisting that XBOX is a game console. What a troublesome thing.

This time, we position it as a supercomputer. However, as there are people who don't see it as a computer if it's not filed as a computer, we make it run an OS. Cell can run multiple OSes simultaneously. So, to run an OS as it is and to say it's a computer, it needs an HDD.

So, I think we'll put Linux (on an HDD) from the beginning... as a bonus. To file it as a computer.

G: For an OS to be run on Cell, Linux comes to mind.

K: Though Linux is also a legacy, it can be a initial lead. For Cell, an OS is merely an application (laugh). The kernel runs on Cell (Cell OS hypervisor) and it takes the style in which multiple OSes as applications run on top of that (virtual machine). Linux will be put of course. If Linux can be put, Lindows or anything can be put.

Also other PC OSs, if the vendors think they want, Windows or Tiger (Mac OS X 10.4), can be put on it. Perhaps even a different OS may emerge.

Drive The Ecosystem By PLAYSTATION 3

G: With an OS, people who write programs on it will appear. To make Cell succeed as a computer, an ecosystem must be run on Cell. It needs the establishment of an ecosystem where many people spontaneously write programs to impel further permeation of Cell.

K: Just like Apple Computer was open back then, if PLAYSTATION 3 is released and becomes open, an ecosystem will be driven. When it became Macintosh, even though Apple didn't do everything, Adobe came and someone came, the ecosystem took off. PC was like that originally. But they absorbed everything (into MS Windows)... Well, it may be their aesthetic, but it's become uncomprehensible even what an OS is.

Until now, we'd provided libraries and game makers had made things in-house, it's not possible anymore though. To do anything, you need a larger expansion. But it'll turn out like that I think. For example, what surprised us is that an iTunes-syncronization software for PSP was released quickly. If it's evaluated as interesting, various things that run on it appear.

G: Non-game softwares that take advantage of Cell will be released in a stream.

K: It'll be about what kind of software on what. For instance an HD video authoring software is basically the same as a non-linear authoring system in TV stations. What we want to do on PS3 is a software of that level. A non-linear authoring system is amazing, but it'll be more amazing if you bring it on Cell. You can manage to do it on a PC, but on PS3 it can be done with ease, you'll see the difference like that. Also, various applications that have been on PC, for example, a photo retouching software. Such softwares will be released rapidly. User interfaces will be interesting too. On PC, you have to wait for years from the XP UI to the next Longhorn. But, ours develop faster. For example, with an interface controlled by gestures and speech like Eye-toy, it becomes Minority Report. Of course such development will be reflected in games too.

G: Will the Cell computer of that time retain the PS3 form factor?

K: This form will prevail first. A keyboard can be connected, it has all of the interfaces required. You can do anything media and network. A thing as much general as this is open.

For instance, you can use everything openly with Linux, so everything is possible (for programmers). Also for graphics, it's the same as it has Shader (with its programmability).

(The excerpt of Goto's comment:
Executives at Intel and Microsoft criticized Cell with its lack of software ecosystem, and it seems SCE understands this point and is taking concrete measures.)

Ciaran500

TBH, I don't believe a thing Ken Kutaragi says, ever.

Goodshape

TBH, I've got a computer. I want a games machine.

That said, someone is bound to put linux on it regardless of what Sony say or do.

LookingFor

Goodshape wrote:

TBH, I've got a computer. I want a games machine.

It's just a bonus..you can completely ignore it if you wish Obviously something like this is of minority interest, but for anyone interested in making games it'd be a boon.

byte

Didn't Sony already do a Linux thing for the PS2? I think it was part of a programming pack or something, with HDD and Linux bundled...

LookingFor

byte wrote:

Didn't Sony already do a Linux thing for the PS2? I think it was part of a programming pack or something, with HDD and Linux bundled...

They did. The difference here would be that every HDD would have it - from day one, presumably - not a special one with limited distribution that has to be ordered over the web. I'm guessing stuff would perform better on PS3 versus PCs compared to PS2 Linux performance vs PCs at the time it was made available too (note, that doesn't mean better performance than PCs..it'd be a lot better for some apps - anything with media, graphics - and worse for others, I imagine).

glimmerman

Excellent news for mame'rs everywhere

Plus, freevo or mythtv on PS3 would be fantastic too (I wonder if they will release a tuner card as an extra?)

Ciaran500

I think they are doing this so they can get into a lower import tax bracket, like they tried to class the PS2 as.

"So, I think we'll put Linux (on an HDD) from the beginning... as a bonus. To file it as a computer."

EDIT: I also can't see this being a fully working version of Linux as we know it. If any little exploit is found having a fully working version of linux installed would be a huge help in cracking the PS3.

steviec

I was thinking about this and was thinking IBM may have some influence in this. They're just as heavily invested in Cell as Sony are, and they've just lost Apple. If they go all the way with this PS3 could end up in a similar position to Macs, but with the games obviously being a huge aspect too. Although I'm probably reading into it way too much.

When more details emerge and if I find out that the PS3 is going to have a full featured version of Linux I'd think long and hard before buying any more shiny new Windows PCs.

flogen

A nice idea alright, something that can be used by the people who care and ignored by the people who don't, that's assuming that it doesn't become to integral to the machine so that your regular gamer has to go down a path that they have no interest in.
I'd say Sony will be smart enough to tweak any OS so that it's not simple to crack the machine, but if it's just a games focused computer with all the bells and whistles, then I'm sure it will be easier to do.
So... if Sony are selling us a Super computer, will PC CD and DVD roms work too? Surely if I install Windows and have all those specs under the hood, there's no reason why it won't!!!

I can see why Nintendo are focusing on a pure gaming future, the next generation is set to get more complex and with these machines only running at their best when you delve into the finer details of them I can see many people felling alienated and left behind, saying that I'm looking forward to all the features Sony and MS are going to push, once they enhance the game and aren't just something that another device could do better for less trouble/money

steviec

Nintendo are definitely taking the right approach. I know I'm going to buy a revolution. It probably won't be my number one console but I'll buy one. And then it'll be either/or when it comes to the other two consoles. Nintendo don't need to compete directly, they need to make people want a revolution *aswell as* their other console.

Back on topic though, I really doubt PC games would work on it since (a) the chances of microsoft releasing windows for their main competitor is fairly unlikely and (b) Linux games would have to be recompiled for the new architecture which would be a major task. If it's as powerful as it's made out to be someone may be able to make an x86 emulator for it but there'd still be way too many complications.

It'll be interesting to see how Sony play this, considering they're doing their best to stamp all over the homebrew community for PSP it's quite a step to make their next console completely open. If they do though there's so much potential there.

LookingFor

Certainly you won't see Windows games running on PS3, at least not officially. IBM's Hypervisor technology in Cell theoretically would let you put any OS on the machine, as Kutaragi points out, but I'm sure you'd need to do a bit of hacking..

As for Linux, I'm not sure if this will be a fully featured version of Linux or not - what was the PS2 version like? The translation I posted is headlined with "Put a full-blown Linux on PS3 HDD" I'm sure they'd like to avoid hobbling it if they want the platform to be open, as Kutaragi suggests. But yeah, there's a fine line to tread between opening the platform and avoiding exploititive hacks. Perhaps they're very confident in their built-in hardware DRM in Cell?

I wonder how an optimised version of Seti@Home would run on Cell

Zombrex

Finally I will be able to afford my 10,000 machine Linux cluster ... Google watch out!!

dearg_doom

That's cool and all but wouldn't Linux just be there to exempt the PS3 from whatever tax toys/electronics are meant to be liable for?

Similar to why your PS2 has a Basic editor/compiler built in?

I'm not sure if SCE want us to make our own games for free when they could sell us games at huge profit:)

stevenmu

I think it's a stroke of genius, there's a huge collection of free apps for linux that could be made run without a huge amount of effort, Firefox, Thunderbird and open office are the ones that spring immediatly to mind but there is of course many others. Why buy an xbox360 for games and a windows pc for word/excel/web/email when a ps3 can do them all at a much lower price (than an xbox + a PC).

LookingFor

dearg_doom wrote:

That's cool and all but wouldn't Linux just be there to exempt the PS3 from whatever tax toys/electronics are meant to be liable for?

I'm sure that's part of the appeal But I think this is something of a pet idea or project for Kutaragi anyway.

dearg_doom wrote:

I'm not sure if SCE want us to make our own games for free when they could sell us games at huge profit:)

As optimistic as I'd like to be, bedroom coding isn't going to compete in any large sense with the big boys in games these days Sony did allow for game coding on the PS2 Linux kit (they provided libraries etc., you could expose yourself to the metal as closely as "real" devs if you wished), but the distribution of that kit was far more limited than say, preinstalling it on every PS3 HDD will or would be.

dloob

Humm I wonder will the cell be any good at general purpose computing.
It only has one cutdown core lacking much of the branch pediction and instruction reordering of x86 and power PC processors.
The SPEs won't help outside of a few specific scenarios.
It may not be the best processor to run something like open office.

joc_06

well the cell can throw out >256G FLOPs and a p4 would struggle to break 20G so imo cell wouldnt be too bad at general purpose computing. its a beast of a chip. 250million gates. 3 or 4x the size of a p4. the more i read about it the more i wana work with sony...

dloob

It's a floating point monster for sure and would be fantastic for graphics and scientific work. But may not be so good at non floating point work.

Arstechnica reached some intersting conclusions about the xenon and cell processors.
In a nutshell the processors are optimised for floating point operations and non branchy code they will really help the graphics side of things. But other code won't run as well enemy AI for example.
But there is hope for optimising compilers to work around the weakness.

Still we won't know for sure either way until the hardware is in the shops

LookingFor

dloob wrote:

Humm I wonder will the cell be any good at general purpose computing.

I expect it'll be OK for "general" tasks, but certainly, it wasn't designed for them, true. Some apps it'd blaze at, assuming they were optimised for the chip..

dloob wrote:

The SPEs won't help outside of a few specific scenarios.

...and I think those apps would be more than "a few". If you look at how people are using computers now, more and more the common use is moving into things like digital media and entertainment and games etc. things Cell is very good for indeed.

As for OpenOffice..most office tasks aren't exactly processor hogs. It'd probably run fine/ok on the PPE alone, whatever about the SPEs (I suppose it wouldn't have much use for them).

For a lot of stuff your PC will still be faster, yes. But for a lot of those things, does it matter? On the flipside of the coin, a lot of things Cell is good at are in apps where speed does matter.

I think the software situation alone is enough to comfortably maintain your PC's position however

stevenmu

Common office apps don't really require much processing power. Fast memory would help alot and iirc the 256Mb of system ram in the PS3 runs at 3.2Ghz :eek:. Other common apps that do require a lot of processing such as sound/image/video processing could be rewritten to take advantage of the SPEs and be super quick. If the open source community gets behind it there could be could be cell optimized versions of lots of things being released, if Sony are clever enough they may even provide some kind of funding or other incentives to get as many people as possible developing bits and pieces for their kit. If Sony handles this right, they could be the ones leading a revolution with their next 'console'.

skywalker

stevenmu wrote:

I think it's a stroke of genius, there's a huge collection of free apps for linux that could be made run without a huge amount of effort, Firefox, Thunderbird and open office are the ones that spring immediatly to mind but there is of course many others. Why buy an xbox360 for games and a windows pc for word/excel/web/email when a ps3 can do them all at a much lower price (than an xbox + a PC).

Think your forgetting the fact that it will be viewed on a tv, rather than a monitor.

Dont be at yourself

The Playstation 3 and XBox360 are going to spur in the uptake of HD TV though, in much the same way as the original PS2 did with dvds.

stevenmu

skywalker wrote:

Think your forgetting the fact that it will be viewed on a tv, rather than a monitor.

I can already view my desktop and apps clearly enough to use on a crappy old tv, as hdtv lcds and plasmas become more common they'll give excellent picture quality. Also wasn't a dvi connector one of the things mentioned for it ?

Alienboy

When is the Ps3 coming out.

Alienboy

or has it allready come out.

Ciaran500

It is at least a year away.

Franky Boy

Holy **** linux in the ps3.....thats ****ing cool!

skywalker

stevenmu wrote:

I can already view my desktop and apps clearly enough to use on a crappy old tv, as hdtv lcds and plasmas become more common they'll give excellent picture quality. Also wasn't a dvi connector one of the things mentioned for it ?

Your seriously saying you can comfortably user your tv to read text from a computer? No sorry.


If theirs a DVI connection(or even a VGA) of course all this is void.

gline

skywalker wrote:

Your seriously saying you can comfortably user your tv to read text from a computer? No sorry.


If theirs a DVI connection(or even a VGA) of course all this is void.

do a lot of people own HDTV'S in ireland or Lcd's or plasmas??

stevenmu

skywalker wrote:

Your seriously saying you can comfortably user your tv to read text from a computer? No sorry.


If theirs a DVI connection(or even a VGA) of course all this is void.

Yes, it's not as clear as a monitor, but it's usable, bigger clearer fonts would help a lot.