if it aint broke..smash it!

rubberneck

something i have often wondered about is the mentality of those who believe that any facilities provided for the greater good of all or as a means to aestetically improve a location have to be vandalised and destroyed. is it a deep resentment against others benefiting, jealousy or just a lowbrow thrill in destroying property?
Cases in point: a new design/style bus shelter/phone booth is provided, designed from glass and alumimium, only to be smashed weekly after each repair. Eventually council decide on bullet proof plexiglass and explosion-proof steel construction which the vandal in question then goes on the grafitti instead!
New flowers/trees are planted in roundabouts/hedgerows to improve location followed by broken branches, unearthed plants and flowers relocated to someones kitchen table courtesy of vandal #2. Council decides to put sod of grass in place and location remains drab and dull.
other examples: atm machines with scratched screens and broken buttons, public toilets in bits, life preservers missing from holders and/or chucked in the river, etc...
I have since relocated to australia where i have noticed these and many other facilities in place, in almost all cases with no damage evident. i'm not saying its not there but simply less frequent.
i wonder, why do certain cultures or minority groups feel the need to destroy these ammenities, is it an attitude of ' i never had that growing up' or 'why should people benefit from this' or a physical satisfaction of causing destruction.
the 'scumbag mentality' is one that i can never understand..anyone able to shed any light reasons for this or possible solutions

Lord Nikon

For one thing, they have nothing better to do.

deRanged

One of the great things about Paris is the public parks. You can walk in and have a seat in metal chairs placed aroung the fountains and lakes. There might be one or two broken chairs, but they'll soon be replaced.
There aren't any thrown into the fountain, smashed up deliberately,
covered in graffiti etc.

Imagine trying that here!

Out in Glounthaune the Community Association bought a bench and placed it in a walkway for people to use.
After dragging it out of the lake about 5 times it was eventually just left to rot in there.

I've no idea why people feel the need to destroy anything they can.
You can't say it's just scumbags either - there was a case in the paper recently of a student who smashed up a bus shelter "because he wanted the poster". A relative of mine lives on College Road and has to park his car well off the road because of the damage drunken students do. He's well tired of chasing people out of his garden, and away from parked cars.

I don't think the "nothing better to do" argument holds too much water here.

rymus

I think to properly answer this one, we'll need a graduate of psychology.

It's like what a friend of mine said once.. "If someone from any part of the developed world sees a nice car parked at the side of the road they'll pause a while to admire it then move on. If some malcontent from Ireland spots it they'll pause a while and imagine how much nicer it would be with a huge scratch all down one side of it... and then scratch it just to find out."

Sad but horribly accurate.

nesf

To be fair, it's not a "scumbag" mentality. It's regular people getting drunk and trying to act the "hard man" or some ****.


Was it Bono who said: (and I'm paraphrasing horribly here)

"In America if someone looks up and see's a huge house surrounded by gardens they say I want to be that guy some day. In Ireland they say I want to get that guy some day."

Nation of begrudgers and all that.

Fysh

I personally think it's because there's very little sense of social responsibility and community for the people involved. If you think of something as being your property through the community, there shouldn't be any incentive to destroy it since you're effectively breaking your own stuff. However, if it's something that belongs to a community or authority you feel threatened and possibly rejected by, breaking it is far less of an issue.

Now don't get me wrong - as far as I'm concerned, every moron who thinks it's ok to smash stuff when they're drunk or annoyed should face consequences for it, preferably ones relevant to the crime (such as community service painting public buildings for people caught tagging, etc). But I've often found that for certain age groups, especially teenagers, there's just not that much to do unless you have a fair chunk of disposable cash. Pair this with a lack of interest from the community in doing anything with them other than keeping them out of the way until they're old enough to have disposable revenue and a vote, and you'll get trouble.

Hell, look at the way the county council wanted to ban skateboarding outside the opera house - one of the few places teenagers have to congregate without spending money or actually breaking things (since they usually bring their own stuff to do stunts with) but the main concern is that the place doesn't look tidy with them there.

dudara

Remember the display of cows that took place in Dublin. It had been to many different cities all over the world, but when it came to Dublin, the cows were vandalised, stolen and impaled on spikes/

We're a country with a big class of people who have no social conscience. I don't know why. Sociology, economics etc are not my areas. But I see the evidence all around me the whole time. I used to work in Apple up in Hollyhill, and when the shift ended at 8pm, i'd catch the No 3 back into town. Some nights the bus would be pelted by young ones throwing stones. Why?

nesf

dudara wrote:

Remember the display of cows that took place in Dublin. It had been to many different cities all over the world, but when it came to Dublin, the cows were vandalised, stolen and impaled on spikes/

We're a country with a big class of people who have no social conscience. I don't know why. Sociology, economics etc are not my areas. But I see the evidence all around me the whole time. I used to work in Apple up in Hollyhill, and when the shift ended at 8pm, i'd catch the No 3 back into town. Some nights the bus would be pelted by young ones throwing stones. Why?

I'm tempted to say that we as a country have a inferiority complex.

solice

i heard of a story once, cant say if its true or not but it wouldnt surprise me. there was this sports complex in a part of the city. when they built it they put barbed wire fences all around, the fencing was high. they did this to stop the "thugs" in the area from getting in in the middle of the night and vandalising the place.

Sure enough they did get in and the place got wrecked. The people who owned the buildings just put the fencing back up, more wire, more barbs. Again, the "thugs" broke in and did more damage. The situation repeated itself for many months.

After yet another break in and more damage caused the owners made one final effort. This time, instead of putting up tall fencing, barbed wire or even concrete they took down the fencing. The put low walls, about 2 feet high all around and left the entire complex open. There has never been anymore trouble.

Treat someone like an animal and they will act like one!

Again i cant say the story is true or even if it refers to cork or even Ireland but i think its interesting

~Rebel~

ach dont even get me started on this one! I live on Barrack St and am a student. I have a car, which is alright, grand like, nothing fancy but i like it (95 mitsubishi mirage). Start of the year it was fine, perfect condition. Now, just from being parked on barrack st (most often down side out of the way of everything) it now has massive scratches all down one side, done by both people and another car that hit and ran (know it was a red car from paint left behind) when was parked, the other side isn't much better with the whole area above the wheel arch smashed in from another hit n run (blue car this time). Also the left wing mirror has been smashed off twice, both times while that side was on the footpath side of the road so was ripped off by people walking not from cars. Also have dents in the roof from feet. Don't fúck with a mans car! keep an eye out if walking on barrack st and am sure you'll see it most of the time, easy to pick out from the damage.

Why people just have a need to break other peoples stuff i dont know, it just doesn't make sense. I've always wanted cork to have the nice amenities i've seen in berlin, paris, prague,viena etc etc but i know its just not feasible cause it'l just get smashed. stupid country..

dudara

Agreed, I don't know how many wing mirrors we've lost at this stage.

Molly

Curfew for under 18's and fines for their parents if they're children are caught outside. This money should then be put into community funds to give under 18's something to do. Barrack St. really is an awful place to have a car

*Aside* Damn BIS slackers go do some work!

solice

Molly wrote:

Curfew for under 18's and fines for their parents if they're children are caught outside. This money should then be put into community funds to give under 18's something to do. Barrack St. really is an awful place to have a car

sher why dont u bring in parenting licenses while you are at it. if it is not deemed that you will be a good enough parent by the age of 13 you get the snip!

28064212

Molly wrote:

Curfew for under 18's and fines for their parents if they're children are caught outside. This money should then be put into community funds to give under 18's something to do

So your basically talking about ASBOs? Tarring all teenagers with the same brush? Although the fines for the parents is a nice touch, they need to start taking more responsibility. Besides, as a couple of people mentioned, most of the time these things happen because the person has been drinking. So if the liquor laws were properly enforced, under-18s wouldn't be a problem.

deRanged

28064212 wrote:

So your basically talking about ASBOs? Tarring all teenagers with the same brush?

ASBOs are on an individual basis.

Although the fines for the parents is a nice touch, they need to start taking more responsibility.

Do you mean the parents?

So if the liquor laws were properly enforced, under-18s wouldn't be a problem.

It's not all drink-related. And even if the licensing laws were perfectly enforced, under 18s will still get drink. e.g. legally bought and stored alcohol in the home.

There's no one cause or solution here. I think a range of measures is called for, both punitive (ASBOs etc) and proactive - providing facilities.

Then there's the over 18s ...

gimmick

The solution is simple - corporal punishment. This country/world has become so PC, that you are not even aloowed say 'boo' to a child without social services being called in.

Some stories I have heard of what goes on in classrooms nowadays scraes the life out of me. Little shíts and bitches answering their mobiles in class, talking over the teacher, telling the teacher where to go etc. They would do any such if they were going to be met with a nice stiff cane over their knuckles. This should happen from 1st class in school. That way they learn respect and how to behave.

But then, going on, you look at petty damage like spoken of above. There was one time, I was standing on Grand Parade by the Ulster bank machine, and this fúcker i know, was just walking along, kicking the rear view mirrors off. Little did he know that they belonged to the Gorbys bouncers. My buddy, who worked in Gorbys went up to the bouncers, told them.

The bouncers duly gave your man a bit of a hiding - Who got sued? And who won?

As for bus shelters and phone boxes - I live in Togher, and the phone box on Edward Walsh Rd is broken on a fortnightly basis, and the bus shelter on the Lough (nearst the Hawthorn) likewise. IMO, if the guy who does it is caught, he should have to lick up the debris. That would serve as a severe precedent to other would be vandals.

The judge in Dublin who made the guy stand on grafton styreet for a day with the sign - "I urinated here" had the right idea, but maybe didnt go far enough.

28064212

deRanged wrote:

ASBOs are on an individual basis.

Sorry, the individual orders are, but some of the related legislation isn't, like the curfew zones in England that are being challenged.

deRanged wrote:

Do you mean the parents?

Yes

I'm not completely against the idea of ASBOs and I hate the whole yob culture, but it's going to be extremely difficult to draw the lines. You have to ba able to allow for teenagers who are just out having a laugh, not harming anyone

deRanged

28064212 wrote:

Sorry, the individual orders are, but some of the related legislation isn't, like the curfew zones in England that are being challenged.

Ah. Now I'm with you. The blanket curfew laws are very strong and I'm not generally in favour of all-encompassing legislation like that.

I do like the idea of an ASBO though.

You have to ba able to allow for teenagers who are just out having a laugh, not harming anyone

I'd see that as where police discretion comes in.

So - a bunch of teenagers are messing around at 9:30. A Garda wanders over, chats to them, decides they're harmless, walks on. He then meets a couple of yobs, doesn't like their answers, matters escalate, they get an ASBO banning them from the area after 9.

What do you think - is that how it should work?

It kindof works for me.

dahamsta

solice wrote:

sher why dont u bring in parenting licenses while you are at it.

How bad. You need a licence to get married after all, and which affects more people in the long term? And you need a licence for a dog, but if you get a bad dog you can put it down; all you can do with a bad kid is keep putting him in jail, with my money. If you catch him.

Roll on the licences. Roll on the test where aspiring parents have to answer a few simple question on how to discipline children, how to teach them respect, how to teach them that education comes before breeding.

adam

solice

Blanket curfews will be enforced in the UK. Can anyone think of a better way to make young people more disillusioned (sp?) with society. If i was 16 and i was told that i was not allowed to walk in a certain part of a town at night (not because it was unsafe for me but unsafe for other people because i was there) i would be incredibly angry. Its the first step to a police state.

"Man is born free but everywhere he is in chains"

You cant treat people like animals and expect them to become model citizens. Teenagers who the asbos are being directed at are only a small part of the problem. As far as i can see they are being scapegoated and are the ones having to bare the brunt of anything that is seen as undesirable behaviour in todays world.
Honestly, you go out on a saturday night in cork. Its 3 o clock in the morning and Grande Parade is thronged with people heading home. Unless you are designated dessie (which i always end up being) you dont see what is going on. There are people just walking around, into people, pushing things over, being a pain. Everyone is invariably bolloxed drunk and cant walk in a straight line. These are the people causing the problems, these are the people that dump whatever rubbish they have accumilated throughout the night (ciggarette boxes and butts, cans of mouldy beer, tickets, paper, food packaging) on the footh path. Its these people that walk out in front of the car as you drive down patrick street and refuse to move, when you beep the horn or flash the lights, they are the ones that get aggressive and become abusive. These are the people who kick in the glass on public pay phones. These people are generally aged from 18 to 35.

And its these people that are to fore runners in the campaign to blame the teenagers for the damage caused.

As for the garda, its his discretion to see who will be trouble and who wont be. That’s a great idea but its flawed. In the same way that you and I have different opinions on this, so will the guard. What one might perceive to be just a group of lads having a bit of fun another might see it as a group of thugs being reckless and disturbing the peace. You can say that the chances of it happening are small but it will happen, some kid will get shafted.
Again, what a perfect way to make “impressionable” kids more disillusioned with society.

Yes there is a problem. Yes it has to be sorted, but the teenagers who are being targeted are not the only culprits and should not be scapegoated.

Molly

Yes my views might be quite extreme, but having had to put up with a significant amount of hassle(i live next to 2 dark alleyways) I feel as though it is the only solution. Personally I feel much safer walking around town at that time then walking through ballincollig/carrigaline/grange once it becomes dark. All under 18's should have a curfew. Alternatively everyone should have to do a year(excluding training) as a police officer or a fire fighter unless they are deemed unfit by a government doctor, this way there may be enough police to actually police the streets.

Having been in belfast recently and been in one of two clubs open in the city centre on a sunday night, I was amazed to find out that they stopped serving drink at midnight on the dot and only served minerals from there on. Thus with 3 more hours clubbing to go pretty much everyone leaving the club was sober and there was zero hassle. Now this only happens on sunday nights in Belfast but it would actually help out the city centre a great deal at night. On the other hand it may fail miserably(probably) but it would be interesting to see how it would work out.

Blanket curfews will be enforced in the UK. Can anyone think of a better way to make young people more disillusioned (sp?) with society

Stop being so sensitive, all most young people do after it gets dark is loiter anyway.

solice

Molly wrote:

Stop being so sensitive, all most young people do after it gets dark is loiter anyway.

Yeah, and all black people are criminals

Molly

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=loiter

To stand idly about; linger aimlessly.

The above definition is the context i was using loiter in. I don't see how you thought that i was accusing them of waiting to commit a crime. If you're not assuming that are you denying that most young people (who are outside) just stand about idly after dark ?

solice

yes i am denying that. Although the facilities in this country are hardly adequate there are some there. Everything from athletic clubs to gaa clubs, dance and scouting, orienteering. You see a very small proportion of "young people" standing idily by loitering every night. Those that do, dont do it every night and should not be condemed for having nowhere else to go to hang out with their friends

I object to you saying "most young people". Yes there are a few and i would like to emphasise "a few" people who do loiter every night and act in an anti social way but they are not the only problem. People our age and older are quiet destructive as well when it comes to going out at night. Just think of all the examples during any class party we have had over the last three years.

Fysh

I think there's two problems being merged into one here, which is why nobody can find an answer.

Problem 1 : lack of facilities for teenagers to use, meaning they get bored and roam the streets. The places like Finbarre's Cathedral garden or the Peace Park close at 8 or 9 in the evening, meaning there's few comfortable places to go and just sit around with friends without paying money to go to a bar/cafe.

Probelm 2 : troublemakers of all ages having no respect for property.

Now, while part of the source of problem two is problem one, they aren't one and the same thing.

I'm in favour of the idea behind ASBOs because they're supposed to enforce the idea that, if someone is causing a problem in certain areas, it takes them actually committing some sort of crime to have legal action against them otherwise, at which point the damage is done. However, I do thing they should be linked in to community-service type projects.

I'm against the idea of legislation based on generalisations, however. But until we can counter problem 1, it's hard to create laws that are effective and allow a filter that sorts the bored teenagers from the trouble-makers.

Lord Nikon

deRanged wrote:

I don't think the "nothing better to do" argument holds too much water here.

Maybe I was a bit generalized. I should have refered to scumbags, cause they are known for doing feck all, except destroy things.

solice

neuromancer wrote:

Maybe I was a bit generalized. I should have refered to scumbags, cause they are known for doing feck all, except destroy things.

I cant really see how an attitude like that is going to help

Fysh

solice wrote:

I cant really see how an attitude like that is going to help

I agree. I mean, define "scumbag" in a way that lets us identify them easily. Are they people who wear football shirts? People with short haircuts? People with norrie accents? Or is it harder to define without including people who haven't done anything wrong?

There's nothing really useful about calling people "scumbags" in this context, because it just encourages the idea of trying to pin a visual stereotype onto what is, effectually, a type of behaviour. Yes, vandalism is annoying. That doesn't mean we should try and prevent it from happening by trying to pin down the problem to certain types of people - the only thing all vandals can be said to definitely have in common is that they are vandals.

TattyTeddy

rymus wrote:

I think to properly answer this one, we'll need a graduate of psychology.

Graduate of psychology here. One reasoning for people wrecking public property, stealing etc is that it all stems from first few months of life. If you were deprived love, well hey you just go steal stuff to make up for it. Also, if you are envious of something, you steal it.
Hence ;
Anto sees the shiny bus shelter
Anto cries coz mummy doesn't give him a shiny bus shelter of his own
Anto steals aformentioned shiny bus shelter

Geddit?

Molly

Regarding the destructiveness by people over 18 see what i said about belfast on a sunday night.