should guns/ bloodsports be fully legalised in ireland?

snorlax

in light of this thread i thought i was curious to get other people's opinions on this topic( http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=262709&page=1&pp=20 )


1) do you think legalising guns would reduce crime in ireland and allow people better self defense?

2) and do you aggree with hunting/ is it fun? would you be in favor of its support?

snappieT

Don't think they should be freely available, but the Gardaí should certainly have them, and security personnel also, imo.

Le Rack

legalise them?
ILleagalise more like!

grimloch

If you arm the guards then you arm the criminals by default, i know most of them probably have guns anyway but the more common thiefs would get them. Really a two sided sword.

Personally ive nothing against hunting

Einstein

I kinda voted without reading the full thread,

Give the guards guns, but for gods sake show em how to use them properly. But in fairness, i think the government should be more concerned about hiring guards that aren't fat and 46 years of age. I've yet to see a guard that I reckon would catch me on foot. (Not that I make a habit of running from cops )

2) I think bloodsports are terrible, should never be allowed in this country.

Le Rack

Divers wrote:

I kinda voted without reading the full thread,

Give the guards guns, but for gods sake show em how to use them properly. But in fairness, i think the government should be more concerned about hiring guards that aren't fat and 46 years of age. I've yet to see a guard that I reckon would catch me on foot. (Not that I make a habit of running from cops )

2) I think bloodsports are terrible, should never be allowed in this country.

Couldn't have said it better myself, cept I'd add "and I HAtE running!"

Rabies

I think the guards should have more power to take down armed criminal. I'm not sure about having them fully armed, would agree with Grimloch.

The poll is pointless. you are asking two different questions.

I'm a fan of hunting. Like it and have gone a few times. Nothing like the thrill of a chase

But i would disaggree with arming the public to protect themselves. Just look at America.

grimloch

To be honest i wouldnt trust people or myself with a gun in the house, i think the public are best left without firearms. Its far too dangerous.

Rabies

"Guns don't kill people, people kill people"
Guns shouldn't be in normal households. I can understand why farmers need/want them but your regular joe soap

Wertz

Depends what you mean by "legalised"...if you mean that any idot with ID can go into Dunnes or Tesco and buy a shotgun or a rifle (ie the US model) then no. And certainly not handguns.
As it stands it's not that difficult to obtain a gun legally in this country (that I've seen).
Arming the gardaí has it's merits but brings a whole new set of problems.

I've no problem whatsoever with hunting.
I do however have a huge problem with hare coursing and a slight problem with fox hunting. Does tha make me a hypocrite? Probably, but some elements of bloodsport just turn my stomach no matter how many times I hear excuses made for it by the ****tards that participate...

grimloch

Rabies wrote:

"Guns don't kill people, people kill people"
Guns should be in normal households. I can understand why farmers need/want them but your regular joe soap

Assume thats a typo, or im missing something.

Ri_Nollaig

wat do u mean by "fully legalised in ireland" they are?
i own 2 guns (shotgun and air-rifle - air-rifle is classed as a gun in ireland) but mainly shot at paper targets wit the air-rifle

also the gardai wud never be armed goes agasint wat the stand for really they formed after the civil war when the country was trying to dis-arm. its the same as the english police who are also unarmed. police are suppost to protect the public not scare them wit guns
and using guns for self-defense never works! you have to have a reason when you apply for a FAC and self-defense isnt one of them

Fionn McCOOL

Yeah, give everyone guns, even schoolkids, only then will we have truly safe society.

snorlax

sorry if the poll wasnt clear enough but the results wud have been crazy if id put up the two questions, so i just stuck with the guns one.

by "fully legalised" i mean you could walk into a shop and just buy a gun (similiar to the way its done in the states).

I would like to bet most of the people that voted don't live in the countryside

snorlax

snorlax wrote:

sorry if the poll wasnt clear enough but the results wud have been crazy if id put up the two questions, so i just stuck with the guns one.

by "fully legalised" i mean you could walk into a shop and just buy a gun (similiar to the way its done in the states).

Oh i see, your question confused the hell out of me

grimloch

To be honest id be worried if any randomer could effectively get his hands on a gun without any hassle.

Overall i cant see it affecting crime in a positive way.

Fionn McCOOL

Proof that people are just too stupid to give them guns, just look what these idiots do with the stun gun. FUNNY

Tar.Aldarion

guns no
bloodsports definate big no.
i would like to see people who hunt being hunted in a battle royale type fashion^^

county

why would any one want to legalise guns,just look at american society

cgf

Why worry about guns? Look at half the clowns driving at the moment and the number of fatalities

Sparks

Well, there are 213,000 legally held firearms in the state at the moment, and they cause fewer injuries in Ireland than sunbathing. In the hundred and fifty odd years since target shooting started in Ireland, we've had no injuries in competition. Hunting sees a few more accidents because it's not taking place on a controlled range like target shooting, but is still far safer than most of the stuff everyone does from day to day without thinking about it (crossing the road or driving to work for example, are far more dangerous).

Should firearms be available to anyone without control or training? No, not a good idea. But should they be feared like they're intrinsicly evil things that drive good men to madness? Don't be daft. Now cars, there's something to worry about. Road rage is a proven phenonomen, don't forget, and we know people will die this weekend on our roads. In one weekend, we'll see more deaths than in over a century and a half of shooting. I think that about says it all, really.

Meanwhile, you have places like Switzerland to counter the example of the US. There are more shooters in Switzerland than in the US by percentage of overall population, but gun crime's virtually unheard-of in Switzerland. Every year, they have a weekend where they run an event where thousands of teenagers train other teenagers to shoot (and on SiG 550 assault rifles, not .22 calibre single-shot rifles like we see here!), and nearly every village has it's own range. Target shooting is as big there as GAA football is here. So the number of guns around isn't linked to the amount of gun crime; the attitude of those who hold them, and how they're held, that's the key here.

Oh, and you don't get guns in this country for self-defence, by the way. In Northern Ireland, yes, there are about 12,000 personal protection weapon licences issued, but up there, it's not the licenced firearms that are the big problem.

BTW, you might be interested in knowing that the Irish olympic shotgun team has won the world championships, several world cups and come within spitting distance of an olympic medal...

Flattop 15

Can I pop a major bubble here of the "look at America"type gun arguement.
Alot of folks seem to be under the misapprenhension that you simply stroll into any gunshop or Walmart,or whereever,plonk down your dollars and walk out with any type of gun.This doesnt happen.It is a myth ,much loved by Hollywood andpropagated by the mostly anti gun media of the Western world.

First off it depends in which State you live in,and in which city you live in as well.Most of the major cities of the USA have very stringent gun laws,example being Washington DC where it is almost impossible for anyone to own ANY type of gun.Paradoxily it also has the highest crime rate for any city in the USA!
Also to purchase any type of gun nowadays over there you need to fill out a form which goes to your local Sherifs/police dept,next you get whats called the instant check of a national federal database of known felons,this includes everything from DUI to acts of terrorism.Some states wont allow this so you are looking at a seven day waiting period to check wether you come up on State records for any criminal activity.In California it is a fourteen day waiting period for any type of firearm,and forget trying to buy anything semi automatic there.If you are a Californian and think you want to shortcut this and go to say,Arizona and buy your gun,forget it as no one will sell over the counter to an out of state resident.I should also point out that the minimum age in the US is 21,and that is the only age you can legally purchase a handgun in ANY state.You can use one under adult supervision
Want a genuine fully automatic machine gun,silencer, sawn off shotgun,short barrelled rifle or a destructive device which is perfectly legal to own in some states.Fill in alot of federal paperwork,get checked out by the FBI including your fingerprints,pay $200 transfer tax to the Govt and the price of your very expensive firearm to the dealer and wait appx 6months for uncle sam to approve the paperwork.You are now on God alone knows how many data bases.As an aside there has NEVER been a recorded crime where a legally held full auto machine gun has been stolen or used in a crime in the USA.
As for banning guns in the USA,best of luck there are appx 200million plus registerd firearms there.Thats enough to equip the Chinese army twice over!

As for our little island,well we have had a "ban"here of sorts for the last 33 years,which was introduced to prevent a terroist group from arming themselves in the republic.33 years later,well it seems the bad guys have plenty of illegal firearms,which they imported from the US,Libya,former Croatia,etc.And our illegal gun crime rate has gone up since 1972 by 1000%
Even our neighbours in Britan,who have now an almost total gun ban have seen a dramatic rise in gun related crime.Funny that since they banned all legally held handguns...
It is pithy but true when you ban guns only the criminals[on both sides of the law]will have guns.As for hunting,no problem whatsoever with it.

snorlax

i thnk its the fact that having a higher proportion of guns around the place might make them easier to access to those people who either most vunerable (eg suicide), or those involved in crime/ homicide. do you not remember the boy who was shot in the head by a stray bullet? an accident that mightn't have happened if the person using the gun had followed proper safety procedures. i think licences if they going to be issued should at least be subject to strigent safety conditions, is there a safety test you have to pass sparky before attaining a gun?

213,000 is a hell of a lot of guns in the state, do you know the main reasons people have for holding them Sparks?

grimloch

I think Canada have more guns that the USA although I may be wrong. And they have very few murders/firearm injuries. I dont think there's any definite result guns have in a country, it could be like America or could be like Canada or switzerland.

Flattop, I was under the impression that Michael Moore was misleading us.

Citizen_Erased

Canada do have more guns in proportion to population than USA yes , and the problem is not the ability to just walk in and buy a gun in a shop because you can do that in Canada. Yet it only has around 50 gun fatalities every year. So to use America in comparison with other countries is not right because the problem in America is not their gun system but the Americans themselves.
Either way , we are a long way of them. Tesco do not sell unlimited amounts of 9mm handgun rounds. And the procedure for obtaining , storing and using pistols is extremely rigorous. The pistol shootings in Ireland are not in anyway connect with the licensed weapons. They are done with illegal weapons that come in with drug shipments.
Rifles are slightly less stringent in the licensing system , but they cannot be concealed very easily but once again , if someone chose to go postal it would more then likely be with an illegal weapon which is not the gun systems fault.

Rabies

grimloch wrote:

Assume thats a typo, or im missing something.

Thanks. Changede now. Really should proof read my posts.

Umiq88

Theres no way guns would every be legalised it takes long enough for people to get a licence for one. It would be completely dangerous as well i cant imagine every putting a gun into some of my friends hands i wouldnt even let my brother go near mine and he's 23

We have 3 guns in the house 2 are mine (shotgun and .22wmr rifle) and 1 is my fathers (shotgun). I was never allowed even touch the guns till i was 15 they were always kept safe where i didnt have easy access to them and ammo was stored seperate. When i started shooting before i was given a gun everything was explained to me and i was thought that guns are extremly dangerous and to handly with care as well as being shown how to properly handle it and clean it which is also very important because an unclean gun can cause problems

i dont see any problem with this at all what i have a problem is with people being just let off with guns to do whatever they want without being shown how to use them. If someone were to shoot a .22wmr rifle up into the air it could kill someone 1 3/4 miles away while there is a very slim chance of this happening is had to be shown to the person using it and telling them that always make sure there is a suitable backdrop behind the bullet and if unsure don't shoot

In the 2 years that i've being shooting (i'm 17) we have never had any accidents not even had any close ones. I go hunting mainly but also used to shoot alot of clays. I dont think hunting is creul we always will eat what we shoot we never shoot alot of stuff apart from varmint shooting which is pigeons and crows and i do that for a farmer toi help protect his crops and let me tell you theres no shortage of pigeons in this country

Citizen_Erased

I'm in the same boat as you , psittacosis. I am only into my first year of shooting , am own .22 rimfire. I was very slowly worked up to this point with varying powers of weapons. And now still , my father is heavily regulating my usage and access .

Sparks

snorlax wrote:

i thnk its the fact that having a higher proportion of guns around the place might make them easier to access to those people who either most vunerable (eg suicide), or those involved in crime/ homicide.

You'd be incorrect though. Canadian experience has shown rather conclusively that taking away a means to commit suicide results only in another means being used. You're treating a symptom, not the problem itself there. As to crime, the majority of gun crime on this island has been with firearms that have been smuggled in, not legally obtained. Banning firearms, therefore, is again not treating the problem.

Plus, banning firearms that target shooters, hunters and farmers all use because of the illegal actions of criminals is called Group Punishment. It's rather unethical and immoral.

do you not remember the boy who was shot in the head by a stray bullet? an accident that mightn't have happened if the person using the gun had followed proper safety procedures.

Indeed. It was a horrible accident. It should be noted however, that every gun owner for twenty or thirty miles immediately cooperated with the police by allowing their firearms to be tested by ballistics, even in cases where it was fairly obvious that it couldn't have been them that pulled the trigger. Thing is, you see, that shooters tend to take firearms abuse far more seriously than most because we know what firearms are and what safe practise is, and when people ignore it, we know what can happen. It's like the way that drivers know more than non-drivers just how important it is for pedestrians to wear light-coloured clothing when walking down the road at night.

i think licences if they going to be issued should at least be subject to strigent safety conditions, is there a safety test you have to pass sparky before attaining a gun?

Not at the moment. Who would administer it is an interesting question though. The gardai don't have a budget sufficient to train its members to a point where they could adminster it. There is one being worked on for deer stalking, but formal target shooting doesn't need one because anyone involved in it gets trained through the club system anyway, and there are certification programmes for range officers and coaches and judges and so on in formal target shooting.

213,000 is a hell of a lot of guns in the state, do you know the main reasons people have for holding them Sparks?

About 160,000 are shotguns held for general agricultural use (shooting at dogs who are worrying sheep or crows going after crop seed or the like), wildfowling or clay pigeon shooting; the remained are rifles used for hunting (from rabbits to deer), vermin control (animals like foxes, which are killed in the process of farming meat animals, but which aren't eaten themselves), and target shooting. There are also a few hundred pistols and air pistols which are used for target shooting.

One of the condiitions of getting your licence for a particular gun, don't forget, is that you must have a good reason to have it!

snorlax

but:

FACT: A gun in the home increases the risk of homicide of a household member by 3 times and the risk of suicide by 5 times compared to homes where no gun is present.
-Kellerman AL, Rivara FP, Somes G, et al. "Suicide in the Home in Relation to Gun Ownership." NEJM. 1992; 327(7):467-472)

therefore access to a gun does increase risk of death through either homicide/ suicide. dangerous drugs are only sold by prescription to avoid unrestricted access to potentitally fatal chemicals, if you decrease the access to potentially dangerous items( like drugs or guns) it takes away the means and makes it harder for a person to make any rash decisons eg if viable means of killing themselves are unavailable/ or more difficult to come by.

also: look at the number of unintentional deaths, 3% may seem low but thats 3 out of every hundred people dying by accident!

FACT:In 2002, there were 30,242 gun deaths in the U.S:

* 17,108 suicides (56% of all U.S gun deaths),
* 11,829 homicides (39% of all U.S gun deaths),
* 762 unintentional shootings (3% of all U.S gun deaths),
* and 300 from legal intervention and 243 from undetermined intent (2% of all U.S gun deaths combined).

-Numbers obtained from CDC National Center for Health Statistics mortality report online, 2005.

also: id say that the American society (where there is a greater portportion of guns per capita compared to other western societys) is highly correlated with a greater death rate.

FACT: Comparison of U.S. gun homicides to other industrialized countries:
In 1998 (the most recent year for which this data has been compiled), handguns murdered:

* 373 people in Germany
* 151 people in Canada
* 57 people in Australia
* 19 people in Japan
* 54 people in England and Wales, and
* 11,789 people in the United States

(*Please note that these 1998 numbers account only for HOMICIDES, and do not include suicides, which comprise and even greater number of gun deaths, or unintentional shootings).
- Provided by the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence

FACT: As of 1994, 44 million Americans owned more than 192 million firearms, 65 million of which were handguns. Although there were enough guns to have provided every U.S. adult with one, only 25% of adults owned firearms. Seventy-four percent (74%) of gun owners possessed two or more firearms.
- National Institute of Justice, May 1997