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IRA arms: are they contributing to the rise in gun crime?

  • 03-06-2005 4:05pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 583 ✭✭✭


    We know that the IRA itself contributes to crime directly through involvement in racketeering, smuggling, robbery, etc. This illegal activity has been confirmed at various times by the Taoiseach, the Minister for Justice, the Garda Commissioner, the PSNI chief constable, the IMC and much press investigation. We have now also had confirmation by Paul Williams – one of the country’s most pre-eminent crime journalists – of what most have long suspected, that Sinn Fein avails of these proceeds of crime to fund offices, election campaigns and so on.

    However, what I’d like to discuss is whether the network of criminals employed by the IRA is supplied with arms from its weapons cache. There has been press comment that the gang leader of the post office raiders shot dead in Lusk by the Gardai was previously in the employ of the IRA. But did their weapons originate in one of the paramilitary group’s bunkers?

    I have always suspected that the seemingly unending increase in gun crime in Northern Ireland over the last decade has been the result of arms ‘leakage’ from the paramilitaries. Indeed, it should have been entirely predictable had the subject been given greater thought. In an era when the various private armies were moving away from ‘armed struggle’ and into organised crime instead, were they really likely to forego the use of weapons previously marked for offensive use only.

    However, it now seems to me that the rush to the riches flowing from crime has been so fast and all consuming that weapons once used solely by members of the IRA, UVF, INLA, etc. have been finding there way into the hands of ‘ordinary decent criminals’ at an alarming rate. The connection behind this flow of weapons to the broader criminal fraternity is obvious enough. The IRA, ever keen to expand its black economy, has doubtless needed more racketeers, robbers, murderers and so on than the organisation can find through ongoing recruitment and training. So, it has ‘reached out’ to the crime gangs of Belfast, Dublin and other cities. It seems that these groups have been given the arms required for more intensive crime sprees and hence the steady rise in armed robberies, never mind the increase in bloody internecine feuding between rival groups on the streets of Dublin.

    For that matter, I wouldn’t be surprised if the IRA was found to be trading in arms. Yet another murky way to make fortune from the misery of others. Maybe that’s why the republican movement finds decommissioning such an unpalatable prospect. What businessman destroys some of his most lucrative stock?

    To me, this spread of guns to society’s most undesirable elements and the shocking rise in the accompanying shootings and bloodletting is another reason why these arms should have been put beyond use years ago. Now, as they’re finding their way into a wider and ever more diverse array of thugs and murderers, decommissioning is surely more pressing than ever. The last thing we need if for gun crime to spiral out of control leaving Irish cities as violent as Detroit or LA.

    If you’re ever unfortunate enough to be burgled at gunpoint or to witness a shooting, just ask yourself where those guns came from. Then consider the fact that there are a number of Europe’s largest illegal arms dumps dotted about the countryside. Who’s to say they haven’t been leaking like sieves, and will continue to do so until their grim contents are finally destroyed?


«1

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    Its very naieve of you to link the much of the rise in gun crime to paramilitaries. I have stated on this board before that the drug gangs who source their OWN weapons are a bigger danger to the security of this state than an organisation on ceasefire who might or might not be involved in criminal activities.
    Its a legacy of our wonderful Govt and Garda Siochana that the drug gangs are richer and more powerful as the years have rolled on, they can afford their own weapons and use them without little retribution.
    Only in Limerick has there been speculation that arms from paramilitaries are traded with criminal gangs, in Dublin its a different story. Up here they have more firepower than any paramilitary organisation, a small % of their arms could be sourced from paramilitaries.
    These guys have had arsenals growing from their drug dealing profits for over 20 years that their wealth and firepower supercedes paramilitaries in that they hold fear and terror over whole communities hence the lack of convictions for perpetrators in the courts.
    I live in one of those communities, i for one keep myself to myself and would not dare report anything suspicious for fear for my life.
    Its a different situation up north than down here. Up north there is much more evidence of paramilitaries on a grand scale as a % of population unlike the south.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 59 ✭✭Heliotrope


    Also on the Limerick thing i read that a Limerick gang had "hired out" a PIRA bomb expert to rig a bomb to a car.The bomb failed to explode thus the Gardaí were able to see it was the type of device used by the PIRA.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 382 ✭✭AmenToThat


    As far as Im aware most illegal firearms thats enter the country are brought in with drugs shipments.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 215 ✭✭Fenian


    it's only CIRA and other dissenters that would even think of leaking their arms to criminals, also it's pretty well known that the Limerick drug gangs are well contected to RIRA and CIRA, which in fact are nothing more than drug dealing gangs themselves.

    To even think that the rise of gun crime has anything to do with the IRA is absurd. The only reason why scum bags in Dublin and other places are running around with guns is because there is no fear of retribution from the IRA. God knows the Gardaí are doing nothing about it.

    I wouldn't be surprised if citizens of this country start blaming the rise of teenage pregnancy on the IRA.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 463 ✭✭hawkmoon269


    Do we even need to ask the question? Of course the IRA contribute weapons to criminal elements, they are themselves criminals FFS.

    The IRA are gangsters, murderers, terrorists and criminals, end of f***king story. Anyone who hasn't seen that by now needs their heads examined.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 463 ✭✭hawkmoon269


    Fenian wrote:
    it's only CIRA and other dissenters that would even think of leaking their arms to criminals, also it's pretty well known that the Limerick drug gangs are well contected to RIRA and CIRA, which in fact are nothing more than drug dealing gangs themselves.

    To even think that the rise of gun crime has anything to do with the IRA is absurd. The only reason why scum bags in Dublin and other places are running around with guns is because there is no fear of retribution from the IRA. God knows the Gardaí are doing nothing about it.

    I wouldn't be surprised if citizens of this country start blaming the rise of teenage pregnancy on the IRA.

    You bloody idiot.

    The IRA are criminals anyway, first off.

    Secondly, of course the increase in gun crime is related to the IRA.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    You bloody idiot.

    The IRA are criminals anyway, first off.

    Secondly, of course the increase in gun crime is related to the IRA.
    Temp ban for that.
    Attack the post(which in this case would be pretty easy) and not the poster


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,443 ✭✭✭✭bonkey


    Fenian wrote:
    it's only CIRA and other dissenters that would even think of leaking their arms to criminals,

    The PIRA being such fine, upstanding members of societ....hang on, are we talking about the same terrorists here?
    To even think that the rise of gun crime has anything to do with the IRA is absurd.
    One has guns they no longer actively use...allegfedly. The other shows an increase in gun-use. Both have criminal elements.

    Yerah - no correlation there. You're right...completely absurd.

    I suppose Gerry McCabe wasn't shot with an IRA weapon either. Or was his death just part of some unchanging "background" level of terrorist-backed gun-crime which hasn't increased at all and so doesn't really count???
    The only reason why scum bags in Dublin and other places are running around with guns is because there is no fear of retribution from the IRA.
    So the increase in gun crime is because they used to be scared of the 'RA? You're telling me that up until 15 years ago (or thereabouts) The IRA were policing criminal activity on the entire island and dealing with any criminals who dared to lay their hands on weapons cause that was the IRA's job?

    So, in effect, the increase in gun-crime is presumably linked to the Peaver Process and the cease-fire?
    I wouldn't be surprised if citizens of this country start blaming the rise of teenage pregnancy on the IRA.
    Well, if they do, I'm sure you can argue strongly and coherently against that one too and set us all straight.

    jc


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Another rant at the IRA, no surprise here.

    Its probably safe to assume that there is some cause and reason to blame the IRA for some small % of guns gone into criminal hands but the vast majority of guns have been aquired by the criminals themselves.

    Proof to me is that is if the "Great and honourable" Mr McDowell had any figures that linked the rise of gun crime to the IRA then he would be shouting it from the rooftops everyday!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,574 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    I think theres mix and match involved. The IRA are known to have stolen and / or imported shotguns and handguns over the last few years. Both are ideal for involvement in "ordinary decent crime", especially armed robbery, turf protection, extortion and assination, with AK-47s and Semtex being less useful in these cases. These weapons are believed to have trickled down.

    The absence of IRA military activity has contributed to "ordinary decent psychos" (inside and outside the IRA) engaging in other criminal activity.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,048 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    The IRA and their SF mates are criminal scum, like all gangs.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭axer


    MT wrote:
    We have now also had confirmation by Paul Williams – one of the country’s most pre-eminent crime journalists – of what most have long suspected, that Sinn Fein avails of these proceeds of crime to fund offices, election campaigns and so on.
    confirmation...hmm...strong word...kinda sounds like what he said *must* be right 'cos he said so.
    MT wrote:
    However, what I’d like to discuss is whether the network of criminals employed by the IRA is supplied with arms from its weapons cache. There has been press comment that the gang leader of the post office raiders shot dead in Lusk by the Gardai was previously in the employ of the IRA. But did their weapons originate in one of the paramilitary group’s bunkers?
    So because he was *supposedly* previously employed by the IRA means the IRA were involved
    MT wrote:
    I have always suspected that the seemingly unending increase in gun crime in Northern Ireland over the last decade has been the result of arms ‘leakage’ from the paramilitaries. Indeed, it should have been entirely predictable had the subject been given greater thought. In an era when the various private armies were moving away from ‘armed struggle’ and into organised crime instead, were they really likely to forego the use of weapons previously marked for offensive use only.
    I'd kinda agree with you there. Alot of these involved in paramilitaries (mostly newer members) are not in it for the "goal" of the paramilitary army. I think the sooner ALL paramilitary armies are disbanded the better it will be for the whole of the country.
    MT wrote:
    However, it now seems to me that the rush to the riches flowing from crime has been so fast and all consuming that weapons once used solely by members of the IRA, UVF, INLA, etc. have been finding there way into the hands of ‘ordinary decent criminals’ at an alarming rate. The connection behind this flow of weapons to the broader criminal fraternity is obvious enough. The IRA, ever keen to expand its black economy, has doubtless needed more racketeers, robbers, murderers and so on than the organisation can find through ongoing recruitment and training. So, it has ‘reached out’ to the crime gangs of Belfast, Dublin and other cities. It seems that these groups have been given the arms required for more intensive crime sprees and hence the steady rise in armed robberies, never mind the increase in bloody internecine feuding between rival groups on the streets of Dublin.
    A bit one sided there - aren't we? You meant to say "paramilitary groups in northern Ireland, ever keen to expand..." instead of "The IRA, ever keen to expand..."
    MT wrote:
    For that matter, I wouldn’t be surprised if the IRA was found to be trading in arms. Yet another murky way to make fortune from the misery of others. Maybe that’s why the republican movement finds decommissioning such an unpalatable prospect. What businessman destroys some of his most lucrative stock?
    Again...a little one sided...
    MT wrote:
    To me, this spread of guns to society’s most undesirable elements and the shocking rise in the accompanying shootings and bloodletting is another reason why these arms should have been put beyond use years ago. Now, as they’re finding their way into a wider and ever more diverse array of thugs and murderers, decommissioning is surely more pressing than ever. The last thing we need if for gun crime to spiral out of control leaving Irish cities as violent as Detroit or LA.
    Yep. Gang culture is starting to kick off in Ireland (well, its fairly rampant already but is getting worse), which needs to be hit hard now.
    MT wrote:
    If you’re ever unfortunate enough to be burgled at gunpoint or to witness a shooting, just ask yourself where those guns came from. Then consider the fact that there are a number of Europe’s largest illegal arms dumps dotted about the countryside. Who’s to say they haven’t been leaking like sieves, and will continue to do so until their grim contents are finally destroyed?
    I am more inclined to think that alot of the guns comming in are comming in with drugs shipments and are imported by other methods than arms dumps.
    murphaph wrote:
    The IRA and their SF mates are criminal scum, like all gangs.
    Thats a bit strong worded about SF - a political party with 5 TDs (elected by the people of the Rep. of Ireland) in the Dail.

    I think that all paramilitary groups in northern Ireland (UVF, LVF, UDA, the Red Hand Defenders, the Orange Volunteers, PIRA, RIRA, CIRA and the INLA) have contributed to the rise in gun crime BUT I think that there are many gangs operating in Ireland importing guns that are contributing more to the problem than those paramilitaries.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    Up here they have more firepower than any paramilitary organisation, a small % of their arms could be sourced from paramilitaries.

    That is untrue. While they may be well armed they do not have the same amount or calibre of weaponry. IRA arms are not loosely dispersed, they are subject to a tightly centralised and rigid control, those who have used IRA weapons for self-gain or those who have sold IRA weapons in the past have been executed by that organisation. Weaponry is not an issue treated lightly. There are no Republican weapons in the hands of criminals.
    There has been press comment that the gang leader of the post office raiders shot dead in Lusk by the Gardai was previously in the employ of the IRA.

    To analyse this, how could the Lusk operation be the responsibility of the IRA? It has been opined that the IRA hired these men to commit a robbery but why would these already hardened criminals need this factor? Why not just rob it for themselves. Secondly, the weapon in their possesion was a handgun, since these men were well known criminals I don't think one of those would be too hard to find in the Dublin underworld. The claim is unproven, nonsense.
    Also on the Limerick thing i read that a Limerick gang had "hired out" a PIRA bomb expert to rig a bomb to a car.The bomb failed to explode thus the Gardaí were able to see it was the type of device used by the PIRA.

    The incident you are reffering to involved a crude, pipe bomb which anybody with the most basic knowledge could construct. There was no IRA involvement, "expert" or otherwise. The police blamed the CIRA for the incident I believed.
    it's only CIRA and other dissenters that would even think of leaking their arms to criminals, also it's pretty well known that the Limerick drug gangs are well contected to RIRA and CIRA, which in fact are nothing more than drug dealing gangs themselves.

    The CIRA aren't in the possesion of the sort of weaponry being employed by criminals in Limerick, neither are they involved in the drug trade.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,800 ✭✭✭county


    are you i the ira?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    No.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    FTA69 wrote:
    IRA arms are not loosely dispersed, they are subject to a tightly centralised and rigid control

    You know I seem to recall mentioning this in the many discussions on the McCabe killers.
    If everything is under such tight rigid centralised contol as you put it, how come IRA hq denied that operation for a few days?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,956 ✭✭✭✭Villain


    Earthman wrote:
    You know I seem to recall mentioning this in the many discussions on the McCabe killers.
    If everything is under such tight rigid centralised contol as you put it, how come IRA hq denied that operation for a few days?
    How about another new McCabe thread? Only joking earthman.

    Yea I don't think the IRA are as tightly controlled as FTA69 thinks, I'm sure some IRA arms have found their way into the hands of hard criminals but I don't think we should believe that the majority of arms used on our streets every week come from the RA. I'm sure it's very easy to have the buddies throw in a few arms along with the kilo's of coke.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    The bulk of weapons are concentrated in a few large arms dumps, these have now been inspected by the IICD. Individual units do have control over a small amount of weapons in their area but every weapon has to be accounted for regularly, the IRA leadership have an inventory of every gun in its possesion. If it went missing it would soon be known.

    On another note, it is important to remember that every gun has an individual ballistic record and out of the hundreds of guns seized by the police from criminals not one of them has been traced back to an IRA operation.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    FTA69 wrote:
    On another note, it is important to remember that every gun has an individual ballistic record and out of the hundreds of guns seized by the police from criminals not one of them has been traced back to an IRA operation.
    Do you have a source for that?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,048 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    FTA69 wrote:
    The bulk of weapons are concentrated in a few large arms dumps, these have now been inspected by the IICD. Individual units do have control over a small amount of weapons in their area but every weapon has to be accounted for regularly, the IRA leadership have an inventory of every gun in its possesion. If it went missing it would soon be known.

    On another note, it is important to remember that every gun has an individual ballistic record and out of the hundreds of guns seized by the police from criminals not one of them has been traced back to an IRA operation.
    I'd like to see a source for that too.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,048 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    axer wrote:
    Thats a bit strong worded about SF - a political party with 5 TDs (elected by the people of the Rep. of Ireland) in the Dail.
    I only vote because with our (in my opinion stupid) PR system I like to run through all the other candidates and make sure I don't give any preference for SF. I hate them. I hate sleaze-bag Gerry Armani and Martin-sit-ee-ation-McGuinness. I'd respect them more if they'd just admit what they are (members or at least former members of the IRA at the highest level). People have voted for them because they offer a (perceived) departure from the bland mix that goes for political parties here. They do more 'work' on the ground than anyone else. Up north they're well known as the folks to ask about which benefits you're 'entitled' to. A pack of wasters the lot of 'em. I hate Ahern and FF in general, but could anyone seriously imagine the economic 'management' we'd see under a SF government? You think it's a banana republic now??? Haha, just wait!
    FTA69 wrote:
    IRA arms are not loosely dispersed, they are subject to a tightly centralised and rigid control, those who have used IRA weapons for self-gain or those who have sold IRA weapons in the past have been executed by that organisation
    Don't you mean murdered?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,570 ✭✭✭Rovi


    FTA69 wrote:
    There are no Republican weapons in the hands of criminals.
    z7shysterical.gif


    .


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    This thread is not about SF

    Splitting and moving the OT stuff to the other thread


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,882 ✭✭✭Mighty_Mouse


    We have now also had confirmation by Paul Williams – one of the country’s most pre-eminent crime journalists
    Oh Jesus! :eek:

    As for the rest of the post..........oh Jesus! :eek:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    Do you have a source for that?

    No, and to be honest I'm not going to trawl through the internet in search of obscure sources. Put it this way, if one of the many pistols and sub-machine guns seized by the police from criminals had a Republican ballistics record it would be front-page new all over the country. Do you recall such an occurence?


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    You are presenting opinion as fact then.
    Clearly state that it is your opinion when you are talking about something upon which you have no facts.
    Sometimes it is obvious that what a poster states is just an opinion.
    In this case you did not make it obvious.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    Fair point Earthman. To rephrase my original post;

    If the IRA were really supplying lots of weapons to criminals then surely it would stand that there would be some sort of link established by now? Hundreds of weapons have been seized from criminals in the past few years and I personally have not heard of a ballistic link being established between Republican and criminal guns.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,048 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    FTA69 wrote:
    Fair point Earthman. To rephrase my original post;

    If the IRA were really supplying lots of weapons to criminals then surely it would stand that there would be some sort of link established by now? Hundreds of weapons have been seized from criminals in the past few years and I personally have not heard of a ballistic link being established between Republican and criminal guns.
    The firearm would have had to have been discharged during a republican crime and contrary to the movies not all discharged projectiles are able to give up identifying straif marks because they are often so badly mangled upon impact (of course shotgun pellets reveal nothing anyway!). There may well have been republican bullet firing firearms or shotguns seized from non-republican criminals and we just have no way of knowing.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,039 ✭✭✭rmacm


    Fenian wrote:
    it's only CIRA and other dissenters that would even think of leaking their arms to criminals, also it's pretty well known that the Limerick drug gangs are well contected to RIRA and CIRA, which in fact are nothing more than drug dealing gangs themselves.

    To even think that the rise of gun crime has anything to do with the IRA is absurd.

    I don't agree with this. First of all why may I ask why is it beyond the realm of possibilty that criminal gangs have not sourced weapons from the IRA. I agree that the RIRA & CIRA are nothing but drug dealing gangs and probably more likely to provide weapons for other gangs it doesn't preclude the possibilty that the IRA have also done the same. Its undeniable that some members of the IRA have become involved in criminal activity so there is the possibility that some of the IRA's weapons have found their way into the hands of drug dealers.

    I kind've agree with the last part of your post though. Criminal gangs definately have the resources to buy and import their own arms, so there is unlikely to be a huge correlation between the rise in gun crime and the move of certain elements of the IRA to criminality.

    Cheers
    Rory


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    we just have no way of knowing.

    Then why are you of the belief that IRA weapons are in the hands of criminals? It is true that nothing is definite but a high percentage of bullets fired leave a ballistic reading and out of the hundreds of guns seized surely a link would have been established?
    First of all why may I ask why is it beyond the realm of possibilty that criminal gangs have not sourced weapons from the IRA.

    Because the IRA maintains a tight control over its weapons, it is bound constitutionally. As much as some would like to believe, it is not a profit-driven loose association of criminals. Also, why would criminals need to source handguns and sawn-offs from Republicans when they can get them themselves easily?
    there is the possibility that some of the IRA's weapons have found their way into the hands of drug dealers.

    The only contact drug-dealers had with Republican weapons was when they were on the recieving end of them. The IRA is not involved in the drug trade, it never was and never will be. Most guns in the hands of criminals are either stolen shotguns or guns brought in through drugs shipments from Holland or Spain. Dealers have their own supply which can be proved by the haul of Scorpion automatic pistols found in a consignment of drugs by police.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,048 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    FTA69 wrote:
    Then why are you of the belief that IRA weapons are in the hands of criminals?
    Because the IRA, being a prescribed organisation in the United Kingdom and Ireland are criminals on both sides of the border, not glory covered fredom fighters. If you mean non-republican criminals then I believe what I believe and you believe what you believe. Neither of us has proof so we talk about our opinions.
    FTA69 wrote:
    It is true that nothing is definite but a high percentage of bullets fired leave a ballistic reading and out of the hundreds of guns seized surely a link would have been established?
    Perhaps the IRA are cleverer than that. Perhaps they have a cache of weapons to be used as a threat in armed robberies etc. that are not intended to be discharged and a cache of weapons reserved for shooting people and maybe they keep these to themselves. Also, you keep talking about bullets but given that a large (I don't have figures just anecdotal evidence) number of firearms used are shotguns there will be no tracing them through ballistics.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,039 ✭✭✭rmacm


    FTA69 wrote:
    Because the IRA maintains a tight control over its weapons, it is bound constitutionally. As much as some would like to believe, it is not a profit-driven loose association of criminals. Also, why would criminals need to source handguns and sawn-offs from Republicans when they can get them themselves easily?

    Entire countries are bound by constitutions to do certian things it doesn't neccessarily mean that they do. While the entire IRA may not be an association of criminals it doesn't mean that certain elements of it are not involved in criminality. The IRA is made up of humans who are like it or not courruptable and not above using the IRA's resources for their own gain. You do have a fair point about criminals not needing to source their weapons from the IRA when they have the ability to get them themselves. But then again where's the harm in having multiple sources for your guns (I'm probably being a bit frivilious here but I do have a point).

    Cheers
    Rory


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Thread reopened .

    The off topic stuff has been sent to the bin.

    No more thread spoiling please. If anybody wants to stray onto subjects other than the title of this thread open a new thread please.
    Otherwise your contributions will be binned on sight.

    Now back on topic.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,862 ✭✭✭mycroft


    Perhaps the IRA are cleverer than that. Perhaps they have a cache of weapons to be used as a threat in armed robberies etc. that are not intended to be discharged and a cache of weapons reserved for shooting people and maybe they keep these to themselves. Also, you keep talking about bullets but given that a large (I don't have figures just anecdotal evidence) number of firearms used are shotguns there will be no tracing them through ballistics.

    Oh they are, in 1999 IRA gun runners were arrested by the FBI in Florida, they were trying to source "clean" handguns for use in punishment shootings in the North. Thats 1999. On Ceasefire for half a decade.

    As for the IRA less than six months ago the murder in the green lizard pub, prime suspect, under arrest senior IRA officer, who took offence at a kickboxer and apparently in a few minutes the gun was in his hand.

    Furthermore this blastic stuff is clobbers. You've have to be able to trace a gun used by a criminal to a previous shooting by an IRA man. I sincerely doubt the IRA are giving out weapons used by volunteers in actions to criminals. Their Quartermasters are too cute hoors and the pr would be woeful.
    FTA69 wrote:


    No, and to be honest I'm not going to trawl through the internet in search of obscure source

    FTA my boy you're learning slowly, now you're passing unsubstantiated opinions as fact, and backtracking when called on it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,575 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    mycroft wrote:
    Oh they are, in 1999 IRA gun runners were arrested by the FBI in Florida, they were trying to source "clean" handguns for use in punishment shootings in the North. Thats 1999. On Ceasefire for half a decade.

    Linky? Evidence? Anything to corroborate your story?
    As for the IRA less than six months ago the murder in the green lizard pub, prime suspect, under arrest senior IRA officer, who took offence at a kickboxer and apparently in a few minutes the gun was in his hand.

    Linky? Evidence? Anything to corroborate your story?
    Furthermore this blastic stuff is clobbers. You've have to be able to trace a gun used by a criminal to a previous shooting by an IRA man. I sincerely doubt the IRA are giving out weapons used by volunteers in actions to criminals. Their Quartermasters are too cute hoors and the pr would be woeful.

    So you doubt it happens. Is there any evidence, linky, corroboration to say it does happen?


    FTA my boy you're learning slowly, now you're passing unsubstantiated opinions as fact, and backtracking when called on it.

    So valid a strategy, you just used here in your post?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    FTA my boy you're learning slowly, now you're passing unsubstantiated opinions as fact, and backtracking when called on it.

    Well Mycroft my son, as has been pointed out to you by A Dub you have engaged in similar antics yourself.
    As for the IRA less than six months ago the murder in the green lizard pub, prime suspect, under arrest senior IRA officer, who took offence at a kickboxer and apparently in a few minutes the gun was in his hand.

    A senior IRA officer? The man was dissasociated from the IRA for years. How can they be held responsible for what a former member did?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,862 ✭✭✭mycroft


    Linky? Evidence? Anything to corroborate your story?

    As I mentioned in a few weeks back
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/413572.stm
    § IRA In July 1999 an Irish postal worker uncovered a smuggling operation that involved guns mailed from the United States to members of the Irish Republican Army. An ensuing investigation by British police and the FBI intercepted forty-six handguns and 600 rounds of ammunition, all legally purchased at gun dealerships in Florida. Siobhan Browne, a suspect whom the Irish press dubbed the IRA "Mata Hari," told authorities that a gun-shop owner in Florida agreed not to file required ATF paperwork for a fee of $50 per gun. Another suspect, Conor Claxton, who confessed that the weapons were intended for possible use against Northern Ireland's police, said the IRA chose South Florida because of its lax gun laws and its abundant gun shops.

    http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml%3Fi=20021202&s=montero

    Linky? Evidence? Anything to corroborate your story?

    And again;
    the chief suspect in the case is "a well-known IRA man who doubles as a Sinn Féin election activist and has worked for TD Aengus Ó Snodaigh"

    http://www.emigrant.ie/article.asp?iCategoryID=177&iArticleID=42489

    From here
    So you doubt it happens. Is there any evidence, linky, corroboration to say it does happen?


    Well FTA assures us (and that does mean alot) that they're under tight control, we know that the IRA are not above fraternizing with a criminal element and have been smuggling clean weapons in since the ceasefire, and have a certain moral flexibility when it comes to dealing with laws.

    So valid a strategy, you just used here in your post?

    These are both instances I have mentioned previously on this forum, and now I have links care to address the points now. Instead of accusing me of making stuff up that I've previously raised on this forum.

    The theory about Quartermasters comes from reading Eamonn Mc Canns killing rage, the logic about not releasing a weapon which could be traced back to another IRA related crime is common sense.
    FTA69 wrote:

    Well Mycroft my son, as has been pointed out to you by A Dub you have engaged in similar antics yourself.

    Yes But I'm able to support what I've previously stated on this forum. Saying I'm making stuff up is, unjust.
    FTA69 wrote:
    No, and to be honest I'm not going to trawl through the internet in search of obscure source

    I found my first two links in mere seconds on google, hardly an obscure source, unless you're making stuff up again.

    A senior IRA officer? The man was dissasociated from the IRA for years. How can they be held responsible for what a former member did?

    Ah yes the plausible denability, sure we got rid of that psychopath years ago. One has to wonder about the IRA screening process how they can't spot em when recruiting them, but you'll release em back into the wild after you find out he's a psychopath. Yes he was dissasociated but the only word we have on that is the RA and they never lie.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,800 ✭✭✭county


    Thats a bit strong worded about SF - a political party with 5 TDs (elected by the people of the Rep. of Ireland) in the Dail.
    where in the western world would you see 5 terrorists democratly elected,shame on the irish electorate


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭axer


    county wrote:
    Thats a bit strong worded about SF - a political party with 5 TDs (elected by the people of the Rep. of Ireland) in the Dail.
    where in the western world would you see 5 terrorists democratly elected,shame on the irish electorate
    Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin TD (Highest number of votes in Cavan-Monaghan), Arthur Morgan TD, Aengus Ó Snodaigh TD, Seán Crowe TD (highest number of first pref votes dublin south-west) and Martin Ferris TD (highest number of votes in Kerry-North) are all terriorists? not to mention Mary Lou McDonald MEP? I guess some people just dont agree with you.

    But back on topic.

    mycroft wrote:
    As I mentioned in a few weeks back
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/413572.stm
    Interesting read on the story.
    http://newtimesbpb.com/issues/2000-01-27/news_1.html
    mycroft wrote:
    the chief suspect in the case is "a well-known IRA man who doubles as a Sinn Féin election activist and has worked for TD Aengus Ó Snodaigh"
    You forgot to add this before the quote "According to Sunday Independent journalist Jim Cusack"

    Also is this thread really about -> well the PIRA or CIRA or RIRA have the means, so they must be doing it!?


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I see the ex FBI man that axer links to uses the same logic as Amen to that ie that it went on 100's of years ago so ergo a similar fight is ok today
    "I'm in favor of a united Ireland," he says. "Did George Washington and the American Revolutionary people have to use violence? When you're dealing with the British, they aren't giving up their possessions without a struggle.
    Theres lots of things that were acceptable in the time of George Washington that most definitely aren't today.
    Importing Arms and explosives illegally to murder children in Warrington most definitely isn't as isnt the spanish inquisition or the burning of witches or whatever depending on how far back you want to go.

    That Former FBI agent doesnt condone violence though

    Again this is rather all off topic and unless the next posters here are on topic ie discussing what the thread title allows or the control or lack thereof that the IRA have on their arms etc then the posts will be binned

    If you want to discuss the historics of the IRA campaign,its justification or not and its validity today or anything in that line- Go open another thread


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭axer


    Earthman wrote:
    I see the ex FBI man that axer links to uses the same logic as Amen to that ie that it went on 100's of years ago so ergo a similar fight is ok todayTheres lots of things that were acceptable in the time of George Washington that most definitely aren't today.
    Importing Arms and explosives illegally to murder children in Warrington most definitely isn't as isnt the spanish inquisition or the burning of witches or whatever depending on how far back you want to go.

    That Former FBI agent doesnt condone violence though

    Again this is rather all off topic and unless the next posters here are on topic ie discussing what the thread title allows or the control or lack thereof that the IRA have on their arms etc then the posts will be binned

    If you want to discuss the historics of the IRA campaign,its justification or not and its validity today or anything in that line- Go open another thread
    What are you talking about? Did you even read the whole thing? How is it off topic? It is about alleged IRA members gun-running.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    axer wrote:
    What are you talking about? Did you even read the whole thing? How is it off topic? It is about alleged IRA members gun-running.
    I was referring to anything preceding that is off topic and I want no more of it.
    I also wont put up with you a poster insinuating that I am moderating something I havent read...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    There is a piece in IOS today about the firearm murder rate in Ireland since 1998.

    'Of 83 killings committed with firearms in Ireland since 1998, only 14 convictions have been secured, according to DOJ.'

    Thats a 83% chance of not getting caught if you kill someone with a firearm.

    Also it mentions that drug gangs have infiltrated the Motor Tax Office, Dept of Environment and Dublin City Council as well as security firms.

    This mafia is getting bigger and more powerful, if the govt had put effort into cracking these gangs like they did against the 'Real Ira' after Omagh then just maybe these gangs would not be as powerful as they are now.

    Armed robberies and or aggravated burglaries with a firearm have doubled from 203 in year 2000 to 428 in 2004.

    Does anyone honestly believe that most if not all of these crimes are used with 'republican linked' guns ?..It is extremely naieve to think so.
    Would you feel safe if you crossed one of these gangs knowing that they have access to your personal data on demand?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    'Of 83 killings committed with firearms in Ireland since 1998, only 14 convictions have been secured, according to DOJ.'
    Thats a 83% chance of not getting caught if you kill someone with a firearm.
    That's not quite that simple. It's not a case of there being a better chance of you evading capture if you use a firearm in a crime, it's a case of there being a better chance of you evading capture if you're part of an organised criminal gang, be it paramilitary in nature or not. The firearm itself isn't the cause of the low detection rate. If anything, in fact, use of a firearm in a crime makes forensic proof easier to find and exhibit in court.
    Would you feel safe if you crossed one of these gangs knowing that they have access to your personal data on demand?
    It's funny you should say that, since that's what people in the North have had to live with for over thirty years...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,574 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Many non-gun murders are crimes of passion between familiy members or friends and are relatively(! :eek: :rolleyes: :D ) easy to solve. Getting a gun and killing someone who isn't in your immediate circle is quite a deliberate act and you are likely to cover your tracks.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,862 ✭✭✭mycroft


    axer wrote:

    Oh how very donnie brasco doesn't change the essential thrust of the point of the IRA wanting to get their hands on clean firearms.
    You forgot to add this before the quote "According to Sunday Independent journalist Jim Cusack"

    And several other journalists. Implying a story is false because one journalist from one paper you dislike, reports it, doesn't make it untrue.
    Also is this thread really about -> well the PIRA or CIRA or RIRA have the means, so they must be doing it!?

    Um, er no, in both cases its the behaviour of people who are connected to both the IRA and SF and both organisations have tried to use plausible deniability to avoid the unpleasant implications of their involvement.

    but then the SF daleks are active on this site

    DE-NY DE-NY DE-NY


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,048 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    mycroft wrote:
    but then the SF daleks are active on this site

    DE-NY DE-NY DE-NY
    :D:D:D


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    mycroft wrote:
    but then the SF daleks are active on this site

    DE-NY DE-NY DE-NY
    Please refrain from denegrating posters because of the party they support.
    Your points are wasted when you desend to such levels.
    It equates to an attack on peoples beliefs in a sweeping way rather than what you should be doing ie dealing with what they post.

    I've taken those of an opposite belief to you to task already in the last 24 hours and whats sauce for the goose is sauce for the Gander.
    If you have a problem with this, you can pm me but in this thread Back on topic now-thanks


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭axer


    mycroft wrote:
    Oh how very donnie brasco doesn't change the essential thrust of the point of the IRA wanting to get their hands on clean firearms.
    As opposed "Unclean" weapons? The IRA have not disbanded as yet so arguing that they are still getting weapons means nothing.
    mycroft wrote:
    And several other journalists. Implying a story is false because one journalist from one paper you dislike, reports it, doesn't make it untrue.
    What other journalists? Implying it must be true just because it was written by Paul Williams doesnt instantly make it true either.
    mycroft wrote:
    Um, er no, in both cases its the behaviour of people who are connected to both the IRA and SF and both organisations have tried to use plausible deniability to avoid the unpleasant implications of their involvement.
    Because it was proven?

    I always hear GUIL-TY GUIL-TY GUIL-TY


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,830 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    axer wrote:
    The IRA have not disbanded as yet so arguing that they are still getting weapons means nothing.
    It does cast a strong doubt over their alleged intention to disband.

    Have you ever worked for a company that has announced its intention to close up shop? How much capital expenditure do you suppose takes place in those circumstances?


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