Bored of rag doll effects

Retr0gamer

Is anyone else bored of them. I was playing MOH:PA and Turok recently and noticed the wonderful death animations when an enemy was killed, soldiers writhing in pain when shot and dinosaurs thrashing around with blood pouring from their mouths. I think it's far more effective than HL2 and the Unreal games were the enemies just drop. Granted it looks lovely when a body is caught in an explosion but otherwise it's rather boring and very unrealistic. The effect in MOH:PA is a great example and despite the lack of blood is much more harrowing and effectivethan anything I've seen in the other two games I mentioned or their like. I wish developers could reach a happy medium like seen in Halo and Metroid Prime which combine animations with rag doll effects afterwards.

sprinkles

I agree, they look cool, sometimes even funny but totally unrealistic. Mercenaries takes it to the hilarity levels at times but I think HL2 in parts nails the dying soldier effects.

grimloch

Rag doll is funny in source sometimes, its amusing to throw a grenade into a room and see a fella flying out the door afterwards

Rag doll physics are stupid sometimes like when you shoot someone in the shoulder with say a shotgun, no real reaction then shoot them again and they go flying back-thats what i dont like

Overall i think theyre allright but not perfect

monument

Retr0gamer wrote:

I was playing MOH:PA and Turok recently and noticed the wonderful death animations when an enemy was killed, soldiers writhing in pain when shot and dinosaurs thrashing around with blood pouring from their mouths. I think it's far more effective than HL2 and the Unreal games were the enemies just drop.

HL2 and MOH:PA run on Havok physics, as far as I know MOH:PA would be running on a more up-to-date version, possible with Havok’s integrated animation package too. I could be wrong.

Stephen

sprinkles wrote:

I think HL2 in parts nails the dying soldier effects.

I love the way you can actually nail enemies to walls with the crossbow in HL2
There's that bit on the coast road after you first get it when you get to nail some combine peon to a big billboard that he's perched up on, ****ing great.

Citizen_Erased

Am , no and I dont think I ever will. Half life 2 , bolting to people to the wall , Souce - putting a bear gun to someones head pointblank , headshottage etc..

Really , rag dool effect are what make killing people so satisfying , I think you just obviously havent experienced them to their full extent.

steviec

The problem with custom death animations as opposed to ragdoll physics is that the animation might look cool, but after you've killed the 100th enemy who'd died in exactly the same way in a row then it starts to get boring. Ragdoll physics can be pretty dodgy in some games but as the tech gets better it can only improve.

Retr0gamer

monument wrote:

HL2 and MOH:PA run on Havok physics, as far as I know MOH:PA would be running on a more up-to-date version, possible with Havok’s integrated animation package too. I could be wrong.

The rag doll physics only kick in after the death animation has ended in MOH:PA. They look godd then especially when the body floats down a river.

Really , rag dool effect are what make killing people so satisfying , I think you just obviously havent experienced them to their full extent.

I have had one or two laughs from rag doll physics (I will always remember seeing it first in UT2003 when I died, fell down about 100ft and caught a jutting out pole right between the legs, ouch :eek: ) But i didn't find killing the bad guys in HL2 very satisfying. They just dropped to the ground after they died which is far more boring than any repeated death animation. Pacific Assault does it a lot better. Watching the enemies writhe in pain is very effective and it's also not as over the top as some games can be.

ObeyGiant

They're getting a lot better. Games like Psi-Ops reached a fantastic midpoint in animation and ragdoll.. being able to jiggle a person about and have them flail a little, but try to regain enough composure to shoot you.

Similarly, the ragdolls in Destroy All Humans look pretty good - same as above, except with... cows, too.

Mark

But i didn't find killing the bad guys in HL2 very satisfying.

Maybe you shouldn't murderer

Tusky

I have to say I LOVE ragdoll effects. They are one of the best advancements in games of recent years. It makes everything look so much more realistic...they are not perfect but give them a couple of years and they will be. Death animations get far too repedative although there are the exceptions to that rule. The death animations in perfect dark and goldeneye were great for the time.

One example of ragdoll effects working really well was in Hal Life 2. I flung a grenade into a room which killed two guys, a press was sent flying through the air from the explosion. It broke through the window and landed on an enemy soldier on the outside of the room...it was amazing.

madrab

yeah i love ragdoll physics but one thing that really annoys me is that it only kicks in after they die, i would love to be able to play a game where i could be able to, say, shoot an ememy in the shoulder, watch them spin around and maybe fall down then get back up again (ok it meay be unrealistic but it would be cool) or even shot a big demon with a machine gun and watch it it get slightly knocked back as each bullet hits

Ri_Nollaig

i though they can do that?

madrab

not in anything ive seen, but im willing to play a few new games to see if they have

CyberGhost

yea, I don't really like ragdolls too tbh, they just aren't "there" yet

that's why infinityward didn't go with ragdolls for call of duty 2, they are a very clever team.

Retr0gamer

madrab wrote:

not in anything ive seen, but im willing to play a few new games to see if they have

Max payne 2 did it. Crap game but at least there is some satisfaction to be garnered by sending someone flying across a room with a continual hail of M16 slugs.

Ri_Nollaig

max payne 2 wasnt crap just too short... really really short infact u cud easily finish it in 1 sitting

Kiith

max payne 2 was the best game of last year(or was it the year before). granted it was very short, but it looked amazing, had superb voice acting (which is something we never see in games) and had the best story ever (except FFVII).

and rag dolls are cool. we used to give out that we didnt have them, now we give out cause we do??

Canis Lupus

Ragdoll needs to be done right and suit the game they are in:

Rainbow Six 3: Shoot a guy, he folds backwards over his knees and looks like he is doing yoga or presenting his "lunchbox" to you. This was not good.

Max Payne 2. Dual ingrams, bullet time, paint cans flying, bodies contorting and being fired across the room. Perfect for the game.

Done right ragdoll is great but poorly implemented it can wreck the atmosphere of a game.

Incidentally has anyone tried Cinema 1.6 mod for Max Payne 2?? I got it off a cover mount on PCZone and damn it makes MP2 even cooler like adding some amazing tunes for bullet time and changing maxs' look as well as some new weapons and new moves. I highly recommend it as a download for the BBand ppl out there to give it a whirl.

ShiverinEskimo

CyberGhost wrote:

that's why infinityward didn't go with ragdolls for call of duty 2, they are a very clever team.

Have to say having watched the vids for COD2 I am very impressed with the way they die (god that sounds sick). It looks like it would look like - like they look in modern war movies - saving private ryan and the like.

I have to say though - i do like ragdolls, it can be satisfying and very funny but generally while trying to be more realistic often end up less realistic.

Stephen

The best thing about ragdolls: no dead bodies clipping through walls. That really annoyed me about a lot of older fps games.

Deadwing

I just had a quick game of CS:S last night, and i have to say the ragdoll effects in it really are incredible. I mean, id noticed them before obviously in HL2 & CS:S, but only after reading this thread i really noticed them, CT's getting shot and flying backwards, landing as youd expect a body to land, no clipping through walls etc. Seeing someone get shot in the leg and have thier legs fly out from under them as they crumble to the ground in a heap is waaaaaay better than any death animation, animations just usually look out of place, clips through walls, sometimes they screw up and you get dead characters stuck in an animation loop and stuff. Both have thier good points and bad points, but tbh ragdoll all the way.

Retr0gamer

Well in real life bullets don't spend people or limbs flying backwards even a close range shotgun shell to the chest won't do it. It only happens in hollywood movies.

ObeyGiant

madrab wrote:

yeah i love ragdoll physics but one thing that really annoys me is that it only kicks in after they die, i would love to be able to play a game where i could be able to, say, shoot an ememy in the shoulder, watch them spin around and maybe fall down then get back up again (ok it meay be unrealistic but it would be cool) or even shot a big demon with a machine gun and watch it it get slightly knocked back as each bullet hits

Yeah, as retrogamer said, Max Payne 2 had that.

But taking it a bit further, Havok used to have a 'zombie' demo that had a sort of "limited ragdoll" (which seems to be gone from their site now). In the demo, you had a zombie coming towards you. When you shot the arm, it went limp and 'ragdoll'-ish, but the zombie kept coming towards you. Likewise for various other parts of the body, until you shot the head. Cos as we all know, with zombies, the headshot's the only true stopper.

Deadwing

Retr0gamer wrote:

Well in real life bullets don't spend people or limbs flying backwards even a close range shotgun shell to the chest won't do it. It only happens in hollywood movies.

Maybe so but its still vastly more enjoyable than an animation, watching almost EVERY enemy die in the exact same manner, at least with ragdoll each enemy dies differently, and helps to suspend disbelief for longer

Raiser

Ragdoll is cool. Point of interest; German authorities banned ragdoll animations in FarCry. Two World Wars and 6,000,000 Jews later its ok to shoot people in games..

.. Just so long as they don't look like they've been shot ...

CyberGhost

lol, that's really odd

ObeyGiant

Retr0gamer wrote:

Well in real life bullets don't spend people or limbs flying backwards even a close range shotgun shell to the chest won't do it. It only happens in hollywood movies.

Dude, these stories only happen in Hollywood movies.

Retr0gamer

I still think they look like a manniquin has just been shot. Hopefully the new physics engine that Unreal 3 is using will improve this by adding rigidity to the linmbs and not making them as floppy as hugh grants hair. I like the way limbs can be broken off if enough force is applied.

What I'd really like to see is enemies screaming in pain after I shot them. Very harrowing and much more realistic. Then while they are on the ground I can take out my pistol, shoot him in the head while shouting 'take that concerned parents groups!'. Now I'm off to kill something before I hurt myself. Mwhahaha!

Matt Simis

Retr0gamer wrote:

Well in real life bullets don't spend people or limbs flying backwards even a close range shotgun shell to the chest won't do it. It only happens in hollywood movies.

For handgun or small rifle bullets Id agree, but are saying you could take a shot from a shotgun at 1m and not fall (violently) backwards?


Matt

Pugsley

madrab wrote:

or even shot a big demon with a machine gun and watch it it get slightly knocked back as each bullet hits

Doom had that, well Doom1 and 2 had that, Cacodeamon, chaingun

But who can forget such great animations such as the headless raptor in Turok2? the spinning death in TFC? Ragdoll may be generally better, but I find the deaths very forgettable usually. First time you take a shotgun to a raptors mouth in Turok2 had me in stitchs.

Ri_Nollaig

Matt Simis wrote:

For handgun or small rifle bullets Id agree, but are saying you could take a shot from a shotgun at 1m and not fall (violently) backwards?


Matt

he means your not going to get blow through the air like you see in some (bad) movies
every see mythbusters they actaully did that once ?
Every reaction has an equal and oppisite reaction so if the shotgun blew the "target" away if should push you back the same

steviec

Ri_Nollaig wrote:

he means your not going to get blow through the air like you see in some (bad) movies
every see mythbusters they actaully did that once ?
Every reaction has an equal and oppisite reaction so if the shotgun blew the "target" away if should push you back the same

Mythbusters actually shot someone at close range with a shotgun once? That's dedication!

Ri_Nollaig

nah just a piece of meat on hook shame wud have liked to have seen that ginger guy get shoot tho ...maybe next time

steviec

I'd imagine what would actually happen would be very very gorey and bloody and the bullets would be more likely to go through the body and out the other side than send the body flying. Not sure that would look better in a game...

Ciaran500

steviec wrote:

I'd imagine what would actually happen would be very very gorey and bloody and the bullets would be more likely to go through the body and out the other side than send the body flying.

Thats what I thought to, but recently I have seen a clip of a guy shooting himself in the head (PM if you really want to see it), it was suprisingly clean, lots of blood pouring out of the wound, but no gore.

madrab

ObeyGiant wrote:

Yeah, as retrogamer said, Max Payne 2 had that.

But taking it a bit further, Havok used to have a 'zombie' demo that had a sort of "limited ragdoll" (which seems to be gone from their site now). In the demo, you had a zombie coming towards you. When you shot the arm, it went limp and 'ragdoll'-ish, but the zombie kept coming towards you. Likewise for various other parts of the body, until you shot the head. Cos as we all know, with zombies, the headshot's the only true stopper.

yeah they got knocked back by the bullets but that was when they were dead, not still alive

Ri_Nollaig

Ciaran500 wrote:

Thats what I thought to, but recently I have seen a clip of a guy shooting himself in the head (PM if you really want to see it), it was suprisingly clean, lots of blood pouring out of the wound, but no gore.

thats because the bullet went so fast it just went straight through, some bullets like hollow-points wud cause much more gore as they mushroom up on the inside (how nice) and they are many other very interest designs on bullets to increase their effects. but i do believe that armies arnt allowed to use anything but the standard "full metal jacket"

steviec

I wonder who'll make the first game to simulate the trail of a bullet through the body then. I can just picture a sniping game that gives you bonus points for hitting specific internal organs, and a style bonus if you do it by ricocheting off a bone!

Stephen

Sounds eerily like that dodgy JFK assassination game from last year.

Retr0gamer

Matt Simis wrote:

For handgun or small rifle bullets Id agree, but are saying you could take a shot from a shotgun at 1m and not fall (violently) backwards?


Matt

Well I'm extraordinarily well informed by A Touch of Frost There was an episode where they found a body mangled by a close range shotgun shot to the abdomen at point blank range. They predicted that the body flew backwards a good few feet until a ballistics expert came along and told them that bodies that are shot dead drop where they stand even from a close range shotgun. Had to do with 'for every action there is an equal and oposite reaction'.

Crucifix

I would assume the impact effect on someone being shot would be roughly equal to the force of the recoil? So if someone in a firing stance got shot with a pistol they might not move much, but maybe sneaking up on someone and shooting them from behind might cause a bit of a stagger.

Retr0gamer

A lot of the force is lost in the damage that the bullet does and also frm air resistance. If it passes straight through there won't be much stagger at all. Remember the bullet is quite light so doesn't need a whole lot of force to send flying.

Crucifix

Retr0gamer wrote:

A lot of the force is lost in the damage that the bullet does and also frm air resistance. If it passes straight through there won't be much stagger at all. Remember the bullet is quite light so doesn't need a whole lot of force to send flying.

Well, I'm assuming the bullet is aerodynamic and the air resistance would be relatively negligible, but I didn't consider it passing through which is a fair point. The bullet being light is why it moves so fast, but it's momentum will be the same as a heavier object fired the exact same way.

steviec

What a bizarre conversation this has become...

Retr0gamer

Crucifix wrote:

Well, I'm assuming the bullet is aerodynamic and the air resistance would be relatively negligible, but I didn't consider it passing through which is a fair point. The bullet being light is why it moves so fast, but it's momentum will be the same as a heavier object fired the exact same way.

A heavier object fired the exact same way would be slower and have less penetration than a bullet with a pointed tip designed to penetrate and cause maximum damage. (ignore if you want because I've spent the last 5 hours trying to get drunk enough to forget my foray into the local club)

Crucifix

Retr0gamer wrote:

A heavier object fired the exact same way would be slower and have less penetration than a bullet with a pointed tip designed to penetrate and cause maximum damage. (ignore if you want because I've spent the last 5 hours trying to get drunk enough to forget my foray into the local club)

lol!
But I think we've meandered off the topic. My opinion on the issue is that while it may not be realistic, I much prefer to see a guy flying backwards from my shotgun blast than just dropping. I'm interested in animations aswell though, and as people have mention the best scenario is probably to combine them with ragdoll.

Deadwing

Retr0gamer wrote:

(ignore if you want because I've spent the last 5 hours trying to get drunk enough to forget my foray into the local club)

I just had this terrible image of reto down his local disco, drunk off his ass, chatting up some chick with 'really baby...shotguns dont do as much damage in real life as they do in movies! The bodies dont even fly backwards!! What? eh..ok ill see ya around baby!'

madrab

Deadwing wrote:

I just had this terrible image of reto down his local disco, drunk off his ass, chatting up some chick with 'really baby...shotguns dont do as much damage in real life as they do in movies! The bodies dont even fly backwards!! What? eh..ok ill see ya around baby!'

yeah now i cant stop thinking of retro as the "you want to boogey woogey" guy from that add

Deadwing

madrab wrote:

yeah now i cant stop thinking of retro as the "you want to boogey woogey" guy from that add

rofl..ahh retro you know we all love ya

Retr0gamer

I'll probably be at the boards beers if you want to witness me in action. It's scarier than you think.