Welsh out of Celtic League

kermitdfrog · 31-05-2005 4:12pm #1

I kid you not...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/4597161.stm

:mad: :mad: :mad:

daveirl · 31-05-2005 4:41pm

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kermitdfrog · 31-05-2005 4:51pm

IRFU's fault? How? The demands being made (1. HEC Seedings on Cl standings, 2. Int players available, 3. Proper scheduling to avoid fixture clashes) where all being met. This is the WRU's fault.

Dont come back with the old chestnut 'the IRFU did not take the CL seriously' unless you can prove it, because 2 titles, a cup, and 2nd and 3rd in this years league say otherwise.

jacko · 31-05-2005 4:56pm

I think you're absolutely mad to say that ..... the CL is a 2nd tier inferior competition and its a help to irish rugby that its gone. What do Irish teams gain from it ????. their shadow teams compete in the meaningless preliminary games and then the no 1 team arrives to claim all the glory (or lack of it if you're a leinster heartless spineless Brylcreem wearing wanabe, and in case you think I'm taking a swipe at BOD there, no chance, at least he's got a bit of heart to go with the talent, and I'm not from Munster either). If the Irish teams want to succeed, they should follow the Welsh, and create a GB & I Powerleague or instead of the Celtic league they could call it the Properleague

daveirl · 31-05-2005 5:01pm

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kermitdfrog · 31-05-2005 5:03pm

jacko

I'm guessing you dont actually watch much Cl rugby then. a 2nd tier competition (to the HEC) it is - so? What do they gain? Regular competition, development of the squad. Their shadow teams most certainly do not compete - its a sqaud based game now. And the International are guranteed (or were) for 75% of games MINIMUM this year.

ack of it if you're a leinster heartless spineless Brylcreem wearing wanabe

Whatever you do dont resort to stero..oh, too late. I am a Leinster supporter, and far from D4 or brylcreem wannabes am I . Either have a meaningful discussion or dont

kermitdfrog · 31-05-2005 5:05pm

Dave

I'm really not getting into the IRFU/Cl debate now. It doesnt matter anymore anyway! But I defintely agree re: enjoying the league. I find this news very depressing.

more news

http://www.rte.ie/sport/2005/0531/celticleague.html

daveirl · 31-05-2005 5:10pm

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jacko · 31-05-2005 5:35pm

sorry, dont agree 1 bit. Standard of the CL is not going to help internationals develop one bit. It's fine as a development league but a far cry from the type of rugby you'd expect from decent internationals. What would ye who know all (and seemingly say all too), think of a similar comp to the super12 where teams get to play each week to get a bit of continuity. Heineken Cup is the best the northern hemispere have to offer but with only 6 games before the knockout stages its not enough. A league for all of 12 to 16 teams playing in consecutive weeks is the way to go. I know its impossible to get a fixture list like this in place with 6 nations and world cup years but both the HCup and CL cannot be takes seriously by any team no matter what they say.

Wales say the pointlessness of the CL and decided to ditch it, and they can make a bit from it too so well done to them.

Jilm · 31-05-2005 6:06pm

This is disappointing news, not least as the next CL had the potential to be the best.

Hopefully, all parties come to their senses in the next few days and we'll still have a Ire/Sco/Wal CL next season.

RuggieBear · 31-05-2005 6:14pm

bugger

Sundy · 31-05-2005 6:34pm

what a load of crap, who do the IRFU an SRU think they are? Games against welsh sides were nearly always the best ones to watch. it will be a mikey mouse league now cause in fairness the scots dont offer much.

Dave i loved the celtic league too, it was nice to be able to attend regular sporting fixtures, something which most people in this country never do. Dont worry about HEC dave you came come up and watch leinster, loads of tickets to spare!

Ha im no longer buying a season ticket if this happens and neither will the other people i go wit. Suck on that IRFU

kermitdfrog · 31-05-2005 7:02pm

Sundy

I'm confused..you would have IRFU do what exactly? What have they done wrong? Please, explain...

I dont know about you and your friends, but everyone I have talked to today (and there's been a lot..bit of a crisis) have come to the conclusion that if anything we will attend more games - to support the IRFU, the provinces, and stick it to the WRU. Irish rugby needs support, not begrudgers

daveirl · 31-05-2005 7:07pm

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Sundy · 31-05-2005 7:22pm

i blame the IRFU for not pushing to keep the celtic league and sort out the differences with the WRU instead of acting like kids. With all the work that is going in to promote and improve the standard and support of irish rugby and then allowing this to happen.

Alot of this is to blame on the 10 week training camp and internationals being missing, a disgrace that was a complete and utter failure.

And yes kermit i do support irish rugby, more than most of the stupid bandwagon jumpers who this wont effect because they will still see ireland play and the provinces play in the HEC. Those people will never attend CL on a cold november night but i would.

And see wat i get for my support, a total mess.

RuggieBear · 31-05-2005 7:25pm

anyone bought a season ticket yet?

I was goin to get mine next week..... :eek:

daveirl · 31-05-2005 7:29pm

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kermitdfrog · 31-05-2005 7:33pm

Sundy wrote:

i blame the IRFU for not pushing to keep the celtic league and sort out the differences with the WRU instead of acting like kids. With all the work that is going in to promote and improve the standard and support of irish rugby and then allowing this to happen.

Alot of this is to blame on the 10 week training camp and internationals being missing, a disgrace that was a complete and utter failure.

Pushing to keep what? The WRU have gone behind the backs of their CL partners and created a competition ion direct conflict with the agreed schedule of the CL. The IRFU, have this season agreed to seed on the CL, release players and gurantee a schedule. The WRU's actions have conflicted with points 2 and three. What more could they do? They DID push to keep the CL. The WRU wanted it changed, impossible without takign two steps backwards.

In fact the IRFU have kept it. They will continue to play the Scots and to hopefully develop a future comp for 2006/2007 involving the Welsh/Scots/Irish and Italians.

As for the 10 week training camp - the internationals missed ONE game involving Welsh sides. In fact, the CL partners where consulted on the issue, and the games were scheduled so that inter-pros where affected and the WRU and SRFU where affected as little as possible.

Now, I repeat: The WRU backed out an agreement, went behind the baclks of their partners to organise something else, approached the CL and said do it our way, so we say so. What could the IRFU have done? "not pushing to keep the celtic league and sort out the differences with the WRU instead of acting like kids" is a bit too general - what could they actually do?

kermitdfrog · 31-05-2005 7:34pm

At the end of the day, it's a sad day, but it's not over yet...

Sundy · 31-05-2005 7:34pm

RuggieBear wrote:

anyone bought a season ticket yet?

I was goin to get mine next week..... :eek:

no as i said i havnt bought mine yet, was waiting for money from a summer job.
If things remain the same im not sure i will buy one, although im sure the leinster branch will say were still getting the same value for money.

RuggieBear · 31-05-2005 7:35pm

I can't see how....there won't be the same amount of games in the season now......

daveirl · 31-05-2005 7:39pm

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Sundy · 31-05-2005 7:40pm

true huggy cant see them reducing them though.

i dont know kermit but if the IRFU want us to attend CL matches they better come up with something better than borders, glasgow and edinbourgh as foreign opposition. I dont blame them fully cause WRU ultimately screwed things up by trying to change fixtures for the anglo-welsh cup

kermitdfrog · 31-05-2005 7:42pm

daveirl wrote:

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Wrong again - they have done exactly that.

The IRFU where never going to have HEC ranking on a fledgling, unproven league off the bat - it made no sense. Now that the league has settled they have done. The WRU have gotten exactly what they wanted. And then been distracted by the lure of the RFU

EDIT: They have gone behind their backs in organising the AW Cup.

kermitdfrog · 31-05-2005 7:45pm

Sundy wrote:

true huggy cant see them reducing them though.

i dont know kermit but if the IRFU want us to attend CL matches they better come up with something better than borders, glasgow and edinbourgh as foreign opposition. I dont blame them fully cause WRU ultimately screwed things up by trying to change fixtures for the anglo-welsh cup

Exactly Sundy. I dont contend that the IRFU are completely blameless, but my anger at this moment is directed at the WRU.

WRT Season tickets: I presume there will be a change in price. There's go to be!

And WRT games: dont be suprised if the rainbow cup raises its head again. At the end of the day though it's just one year. we managed before the CL. But somehtng needs to be done - between more interpros, more games v the Scots, games v the italians or games v the Africans, something has to be done.

GreenHell · 31-05-2005 7:52pm

Well this is very disappointing. IRFU have to field a significant amount of blame for this screw up, the WRU have made no secrect of their financial situation and fair play for them going after the money and probably a better competition. We're now screwed with no competitive regular fixture below international or HEC, the provinces are going to fail to be effective feeder clubs. Shot themselves in the foot the irfu have.

Sundy · 31-05-2005 7:56pm

GreenHell wrote:

Well this is very disappointing. IRFU have to field a significant amount of blame for this screw up, the WRU have made no secrect of their financial situation and fair play for them going after the money and probably a better competition. We're now screwed with no competitive regular fixture below international or HEC, the provinces are going to fail to be effective feeder clubs. Shot themselves in the foot the irfu have.

A better competition i dont think so, its only a knock out they will be playing in. And the english teams have applied to use second rate squads in it.
As for the welsh needing money not being in any league competition wont help them!

kermitdfrog · 31-05-2005 7:59pm

GreenHell wrote:

Well this is very disappointing. IRFU have to field a significant amount of blame for this screw up, the WRU have made no secrect of their financial situation and fair play for them going after the money and probably a better competition. We're now screwed with no competitive regular fixture below international or HEC, the provinces are going to fail to be effective feeder clubs. Shot themselves in the foot the irfu have.

Hold on, I am really not getting this. The Cl, with its 35% increase in gate receipts and expected further growth this year on the same lines for various reasons, has been chucked in by the WRU for a quick buck, and the IRFU is to blame? Not one of you has said exactly what the IRFU has done wrong? Should they have bent over backwards and done whatever the WRU wanted? This is far from ideal, but at least the IRFU and SRFU stood up to them.

And what makes anyone think the WRU arent fecked after this? The CL may not have been huge, but 3 games in the AW Cup and playing their local rivals FOUR times isnt going to be too appealing.

In fact the games against English opposition last year in the HEC yielded disappointing crowds..what it going to be different.

Agreed, the IRFU have been screwed. But, please, someone, tell me what could have been different in that meeting today? What would have been a better solution? and how exactly? Think long term

kermitdfrog · 31-05-2005 8:01pm

A better competition i dont think so, its only a knock out they will be playing in. And the english teams have applied to use second rate squads in it.
As for the welsh needing money not being in any league competition wont help them!

Exactly! English clubs prioritise the GP and the HEC - the powergen, especially now, is mickey mouse stuff - reserves and U21 teams wont appeal to anybody. It IS good money..but the CL was too (not quite as good yet, but was only gettign better).

EDIT: note, not just a knowck about, 2 groups leading to knock outs,but still only 3 guranteed games, max 5.

daveirl · 31-05-2005 8:02pm

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kermitdfrog · 31-05-2005 8:07pm

daveirl wrote:

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Bit of drama queen are we?

seroiously though, the future was fecked if we gave in - the WRU are clearly intent on an AW League. If we backed down now, we're in their pocket (we've already bowed to their demands on everything from scrapping the original format to keeping the home&away structure). If the Unions hadnt stood firm, this would have only happened again in a year or two's time.

We do stll have a league, and we will have a better one. You're thinking too short term. Besides, again, what could they have done? What compromise was possible that would not have been a backwards step?

GreenHell · 31-05-2005 8:10pm

Its a reformatted powereign cup, its going to make them a mint. It won't take the WRU long to reformat its domestic situation either into a league. Which would be on par with the CL in terms of gate receipts. Be great to see Newport around again.
Whats your alternative for us though. We're ****ed.

kermitdfrog · 31-05-2005 8:15pm

GreenHell wrote:

Its a reformatted powereign cup, its going to make them a mint. It won't take the WRU long to reformat its domestic situation either into a league. Which would be on par with the CL in terms of gate receipts. Be great to see Newport around again.
Whats your alternative for us though. We're ****ed.

A mint? Three games, plus inter-pros? Even with the sponsor money (£250,000) its hardky a vast improvement, and certainly attainable by the CL.

Reformat their domestic league? not likely. how? The welsh league is stil running. And a regional league? All four of them? 5 if you re-introduce the Celtic Warriors, but they couldnt afford that before so why now?

Newpotr around again? They're still around - the clusb weren't disbanded you know.

Solution for us? Fu(ed if I know. Hence why this is a bad day. But I dont think we're as badly off as the welsh if this all goes tits up, which it will.

gjim · 31-05-2005 8:55pm

I know it's comforting to blame the IRFU for everything but in this case I'm with Kermit.

The club situation in Wales is very different. A large amount of private money has been put into the franchises which has meant their number one priority was to maximise financial return. Instead of allowing a decent competition with a smaller number of higher intensity games using, for example, a home and away divisional structure or a HEC like structure, their hamfisted aim for the last two years was to pack as many games as possible into the season - quantity not quality. When the inevitable lowish gates resulted, their suggestion? More games. Whatever you say about the outcome, the IRFU are interested in the overall health of rugby in Ireland and not just in the profit and loss accounts of individual club.

The Welsh clubs seem to have this delusional fantasy that they'll be invited into the ZP. This will never happen. They've already tried offering half a million sterling to clubs to NOT take up their place in the ZP. The ZP clubs agreeing to replacing 5 of their number with Welsh clubs would be like turkeys voting for christmas.

The Welsh clubs are in a much worse spot than the Irish/Scottish ones. If I were the Irish and Scottish blazers, I'd have played hardball too.

kermitdfrog · 31-05-2005 9:51pm

gjim

Are you on PR? That turkeys voting for christmas phrase looks familiar!

One last point for you all before I retire for the night - if the IRFU is to blame in all this, why are the SRFU on their side? The SRFU could have taken either side, and it would have resulted in the saem for them - a comp against one of the other countries, who have four teams.

daveirl · 31-05-2005 10:18pm

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Sangre · 31-05-2005 10:44pm

Yeah, good one there dave.

Sundy · 31-05-2005 10:47pm

From leinsterrugby.ie

At a meeting of the Celtic League Association on Tuesday, in London, the Welsh Rugby Union informed the Irish and Scottish Rugby Unions that the Welsh professional clubs have signed an agreement to participate in a new Anglo-Welsh Cup which results in five prime weekends in the season being unavailable for Celtic League.
As a consequence, it has not been possible to construct a mutually acceptable Celtic League competition for season 2005-06.

The Scottish and Irish Rugby Unions are disappointed that the Welsh Rugby Union did not consult its partners in the Celtic League prior to making commitments to the Anglo-Welsh Cup, given the serious negative consequences it has on the Celtic League.

It is hoped that discussions may continue between the Irish, Scottish and Welsh Rugby Unions along with the Italian Rugby Federation to structure a new competition in season 2006 - 07 which would incorporate four Irish teams, three Scottish teams, four Italian teams and four Welsh teams.

In the meantime, for season 2005 - 06 Ireland and Scotland will structure a cross-border competition to commence in September, 2005.

It is proposed that this will be a 12-game, home and away league competition with qualification for European and a Cup competition, the details of which are to be finalised.

Looks like its goin to be a load of finger pointing and service will resume as normal for 2006-07, but in my opinion its a year wasted. With HEC and challange cup coming from the "temporary" league will it give connacht a better chance for the HEC?

Third_Echelon · 31-05-2005 10:47pm

Bad day for rugby in general. I couldn't believe this when I heard it. I can see next season being a bit of a non-event to be honest...

I liked having the option of heading down to donnybrook on a friday evening, which i regularly did after work to go and see a game, but that seems to be knocked on the head now :mad:

The proposal of a sco/irl competition for next season sounds like pants to be
honest...

Are there any problems with bringing in the Italians for next season?

I'd presume that they have their league structure in place for next year, but surely the chance of bettering their league sides by playing against decent irish sides and the odd 'good/better than italian' scottish side would be a good opportunity for them to take up now???

Sundy · 31-05-2005 10:48pm

daveirl wrote:

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haha yeah it is a bit of clutching at straws alrite!

daveirl · 31-05-2005 10:51pm

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kermitdfrog · 31-05-2005 10:51pm

daveirl wrote:

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Because the WRU has been a bastion of sanity, hasnt it?

kermitdfrog · 31-05-2005 11:04pm

Sorry lads, I have discussed this to death elsewhere and really dont have the energy to convince you all, but this knee-jerk reaction to blame the IRFU I find worrying. None-the-less, if you want to read lots more about what has been happening and why, try the planetrugby bored..we've done this to death.

Try

http://forum.planet-rugby.com/index.php?t=msg&th=3926&prevloaded=1&rid=1646&S=8fd9d8ad697be64b290ad6609c0ffc1d&rev=&reveal=&start=0&count=30
http://forum.planet-rugby.com/index.php?t=msg&th=3917&prevloaded=1&rid=1646&S=8fd9d8ad697be64b290ad6609c0ffc1d&rev=&reveal=&start=0&count=30
http://forum.planet-rugby.com/index.php?t=msg&th=3940&prevloaded=1&rid=1646&S=8fd9d8ad697be64b290ad6609c0ffc1d&rev=&reveal=&start=0&count=30
http://forum.planet-rugby.com/index.php?t=msg&th=3814&prevloaded=1&rid=1646&S=8fd9d8ad697be64b290ad6609c0ffc1d&rev=&reveal=&start=0&count=30

and in particular, for the discussions before any news broke,
http://forum.planet-rugby.com/index.php?t=msg&th=10&prevloaded=1&rid=1646&S=8fd9d8ad697be64b290ad6609c0ffc1d&rev=&reveal=&start=570&count=30

This has been a bad day for Celtic rugby, no matter what way you look at it

Sundy · 31-05-2005 11:17pm

haha i have read all that already..

used to post there ages ago but i cant remember my password, must make a new account sumtime

Sangre · 31-05-2005 11:17pm

Unless something changes its bad news for both Irish and Welsh rugby in my opinion.

Cork Boy · 01-06-2005 12:58pm

I'm only 22 so i cant remember when the welsh were apparantly up themselves so much but as long as i'e been following rugby they've been fairly humbled and i used to feel sorry for them gettin the beatings they did...up until now.
"It also makes sense to include teams from the country that has just won the Grand Slam."
Thats what the WRU said bout the celtic league. one good season and they're back on their high horse...lets hope we give em a good ass woopin/wake up call in landsdown rd next yr!

RuggieBear · 01-06-2005 1:09pm

I'm only 27 and i can't remember when they were the unbearably arrogant either but by the accounts of some of the older players and newspaper reporters it was pretty bad....and it does look like this smugness is creeping back. I can't wait to ****ing crucify those **** next season.

My opinion is that the welsh rugby union and their players can go **** themselves. They've been a ****ing mess for the last decade (longer?) and now they fluke a Grandslam championship and they reckon they can dictate to the rest of us. The mofo's have already been given favourable terms for the TV rights...enough is enough

gjim · 01-06-2005 6:15pm

kermitdfrog wrote:

gjim

Are you on PR? That turkeys voting for christmas phrase looks familiar!

Sorry, what's PR?

The point I've tried to make with Welsh friends is that the financial situation means they will never be invited into the ZP, no matter how many grandslams they win. If four Welsh clubs join the ZP, which four ZP clubs will happily toddle off?

For once, I'm happy to side with the IRFU on this one. For those who believe that the IRFU couldn't organise a piss-up in a brewery and so it must be their fault, take a look at the absolute shambles the WRU have made of Welsh rugby over the last few years. They make the IRFU look like consumate professionals.

Sundy · 01-06-2005 9:17pm

gjim wrote:

Sorry, what's PR?

He talkin about the planet-rugby.com forum. loads of leinster supporters on there and good banter with other fans too

daveirl · 01-06-2005 11:52pm

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RuggieBear · 05-06-2005 9:51am

Here's an article from the Sunday Indo by BRENDAN FANNING

It's quite interesting and i agree with most of it especially the bit about the BBC. They'll sort it out as it's in their interest to keep both the Powergen cup and the Celtic league on TV....

Five-night sleepover puts the CL to bed

WE are Wales. We are Grand Slam Wales. We have regained the beauty about which we were so modest through the 1970s. We look in the mirror now and we like what we see. We check out a fat wad of Powergen Cup cash and we think: that will fit nicely in our back pockets.

We look at our Celtic cousins and we say: you didn't love us much when we were a bit dowdy, so now that we are beautiful again you can play by our rules. We say those rules will be like this: we'll sleep over with the English clubs in their Powergen pad on maybe five nights a season; and the rest of the time we'll hang out with you because you'll still be around. Oh, and one other thing: forget any notions of a joint bank account.

It has been a week of spin and recrimination, inspired by Wales's decision to jump ship from the Celtic League. They say they didn't actually jump, that they were pushed. That's true, but their indignation is like that of the husband who can't understand his wife throwing him out for bringing his girlfriend home.

Wales wanted the stg£250,000 on offer to each of its regions for taking part in the Powergen Cup, a competition that has nearly frozen to death in the shadow of the Zurich Premiership. They also wanted to stay on board in the bread and butter Celtic League. They wanted the CL to rearrange its life around the five weekends set aside for the Powergen. The Welsh regions need a minimum of 14 home games a season to make ends meet. This new deal would guarantee that as a minimum. Chances are there would be a bit of gravy to soften the bread and butter.

Problem is the Paddies and the Jocks don't fancy the idea of organising their lives around the Welsh. More than that they feel that just when the CL had the look of a competition which might attract a sponsor, jerking it around the calendar took it out of the shop window and dropped it back into the bargain bin. And they thought it had all been sorted already. They thought in April that Wales were on board for a 20 match programme next season, one which would not clash with international or Heineken Cup weekends. Keeping it free of those bigger fish robbed the IRFU of any excuse not to use it as the sole means of qualification for Europe. So everybody was on the same page.

Then Wales departed from the script. They took a punt on the Irish and the Scots fiddling with the fixture list to suit them. They gambled on their partners concluding that life without a league was incompatible with professional rugby. Without Wales, Ireland and Scotland would have to play each other to death. Hold tight and ride the waves of indignation, they reckoned. It would calm down.

The Irish and the Scots took out their calculators as well. If their season was being ruptured by the loss of the Celtic League, then Wales's would be decimated. Outside of their Powegen/Heineken weekends, they would be playing the, eh, Incest Cup? The commercial implications for all three are horrendous, making Wales's stg£250,000 pay out from the Powergen look like not such good business. Long term they may have ambitions of a stronger Anglo-Welsh relationship - and it could work - but this is not the time to chase that dream.

So all that remains is for the climb-down to begin. In justifying their solo run the Welsh line is that they never actually 'signed off' on the future of the Celtic League agreement. Fine. They maintain also that they have put pen to paper on the Powergen deal. The noises coming out of Twickenham are not so definite, however, and an (English) RFU spokesman was unable to confirm that they too had signed.

Moreover it is understood that, currently, BBC have no slots booked in their autumn schedules for the competition. Which suggests that there is room for movement.

We are now at the heart of the issue. Either that movement sees Wales slipping into reverse, and back into the arms of the Celts, profusely apologising as they go. Which is unlikely. Or it involves taking a magnifying glass to the fixture list and coming up with five dates for the Powergen, ones that wouldn't undermine the status of the Celtic League. This is the most likely solution. Ultimately that call will be made by the BBC.

As underwriters of the tournament they get to call the shots. Indeed it is their money - along with the wedge from S4C - that has kept Wales above water when the costs of the game were dragging them under. And it was the prospect of having to share with their Celtic cousins a bigger portion of that cash which drove them into bed with the Powergen in the first place. They looked at what they had, and what more they could get, and they said: let's have a go for both. We are Wales. We are Grand Slam Wales.

Welsh out of Celtic League

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