Immirgration Contracts?

KnowItAll

I keep hearing how the economy "needs" immirgration. So lets take Germany as an example of a country that "needed" immirgration.

The German economy was going well years ago so they brought in millions of immirgrants. Now that the economy is going through a very bad spell those immirgrants should be told to go home as they are not needed. But they are there to stay and it's the Germans who are suffering now with high umemployment etc.

This should be a lesson for Ireland. Immirgrants come hear and tell us they are "needed" even though most never even heard of Ireland. These economic migrants ( of which 99% are) should be made to sign a contract and get it renewed every 2-3 years. This way when the economy hits a rough patch their contracts will not be renewed.

This would avoid what happened in Germany and it would benefit the country that the immirgrants are returning to. A win - win situation for all.

billy the squid

If every country in the world were to adopt a policy we would be over run with irish sent home from the likes of America and Austrailia. And you can be sure that there are more Irish in other countries than there are Foreign nationals in this country.

then where would we be.

Hobbes

Why not compare all the countries? You left out the whole unification bit for east/west Germany where they adopted a lot of unemployment.

pete

If it's all the same with you I'll take my immigration policy analysis from someone who can actually spell the word "immigration". Thanks.

Alun

pete wrote:

If it's all the same with you I'll take my immigration policy analysis from someone who can actually spell the word "immigration". Thanks.

But at least he's consistent and spelt it the same way throughout his post ... 7 times in all!

Hobbes

Also "shipping them back to where they came from" wouldn't work. Think about it. Your basically removing people from jobs that they may be actively working in.

So you could be crippling existing businesses.

Btw, economic immigrants do go back to thier home country if there is no more work for them, or depending on visa can prove they will not be a burden on the state.

But then most people who quote the "Go home" argument can't tell the difference between an immigrant, Asylum seeker, refugee or tourist.

sleepwalker

This should be a lesson for Ireland. Immirgrants come hear and tell us they are "needed" even though most never even heard of Ireland

never heard of Ireland ? did you just pull that sentence out of your arse?

Meh

KnowItAll wrote:

I keep hearing how the economy "needs" immirgration. So lets take Germany as an example of a country that "needed" immirgration.

The German economy was going well years ago so they brought in millions of immirgrants. Now that the economy is going through a very bad spell those immirgrants should be told to go home as they are not needed. But they are there to stay and it's the Germans who are suffering now with high umemployment etc.

Germany's economic problems are not caused by immigration. Also, the notion that there is a fixed and unchangeable number of jobs in the economy is one of the most common economic fallacies.

This should be a lesson for Ireland. Immirgrants come hear and tell us they are "needed" even though most never even heard of Ireland. These economic migrants ( of which 99% are) should be made to sign a contract and get it renewed every 2-3 years. This way when the economy hits a rough patch their contracts will not be renewed.

You do know that's exactly how the work permit system works for economic migrants now, right?

sovtek

That's great. I'll go home every 2-3 years...no problem....just give me every cent of tax I've paid back...

KnowItAll

Hobbes wrote:

Also "shipping them back to where they came from" wouldn't work. Think about it. Your basically removing people from jobs that they may be actively working in.

So you could be crippling existing businesses.

I'm sure McDonalds would suffer terrible profit losses!

Hobbes wrote:

Btw, economic immigrants do go back to thier home country if there is no more work for them, or depending on visa can prove they will not be a burden on the state.

Are you having a laugh?

gandalf

sleepwalker wrote:

never heard of Ireland ? did you just pull that sentence out of your arse?

Attack the post and not the poster. 1 week ban.

KnowItAll

sovtek wrote:

That's great. I'll go home every 2-3 years...no problem....just give me every cent of tax I've paid back...

Tax pays for services such as the Gardai etc. You need and use these services while you are here so why should get your tax back?

KnowItAll

pete wrote:

If it's all the same with you I'll take my immigration policy analysis from someone who can actually spell the word "immigration". Thanks.

I'm very sorry to have caused you offence pete. Thanks for pointing out the spelling mistake. I must admit that i'm not the greatest speller in the world!

sceptre

KnowItAll wrote:

even though most never even heard of Ireland.

Is this true? Show me why (please).

More importantly with regard to the discussion:
Have you a specific problem with (or "take issue with" or "are worried by" or whatever you like), presumably an excess of, foreign workers in Ireland or specific problems with immigration as opposed to migration or the other way around? Or both? (that's not a loaded attack btw - it's A, B or C and we're going to have a repeat of one of those useless discussions we've had in the past if you don't lay out your stall now). If it's one or the other what would you specifically do about the particular one you're making your case on or if it's both, what would you think of doing about each? I've got your 2 year contract thing but as Meh mentioned, that's how the current system currently works for non-EU-national workers so what would you be thinking of changing there? I'm assuming you're not referring to asylum-seekers as obviously they don't work.

Hobbes

KnowItAll wrote:

I'm sure McDonalds would suffer terrible profit losses!

I'm sure that was meant as humour and not some kind of ignorant remark.

Are you having a laugh?

No serious. You have a work permit, you loose your job = back to where you came from. Some permits will allow you to stay here if you can prove you will not be a burden on the state.

while you are here so why should get your tax back?

Actually it would be possible to get some (not all) of the tax back. Certainly a number factors in this. For example if you did not earn the tax limit within a given year you could claim it back.

Just because your not Irish doesn't mean you don't have rights.

ressem

I don't know what economic migrants you've encountered that brought on this viewpoint of the visa system.

http://www.anyworkanywhere.com/visasireland.html

If None Of The Above Categories Apply, you will need a work permit.

Your potential employer must make the application and they have to prove that efforts have been made to fill the position from within the EU/EEC.

Work Permits are generally only arranged for qualified people in sectors where skills are in demand.

The categories are Information and Computing Technology Professionals and Technicians, Architects, Engineers, Quantity and Building Surveyors, Town Planners and Registered Nurses.

My previous manager, economic migrant from India,
got a work visa, while here spent a large portion of his income paying for the masters he and his wife did here through evening courses.

http://www.oasis.gov.ie/moving_country/passports_and_visas/student_visas.html
Non eu students working here, paying huge fees are reputedly keeping the 3rd level institutions afloat. That's certainly the case in the UK.

Crash

http://www.oasis.gov.ie/moving_country/passports_and_visas/student_visas.html
Non eu students working here, paying huge fees are reputedly keeping the 3rd level institutions afloat. That's certainly the case in the UK.

Its the case here as well. Trinity makes a large amount of its income (other than research) from Masters courses and that sort of thing, by reserving a certain number of places for EU and non EU students - as the subjects that i know of fall under government subsidised for Irish applicants.

sovtek

KnowItAll wrote:

Tax pays for services such as the Gardai etc. You need and use these services while you are here so why should get your tax back?

If you leave Ireland and sign a form that you aren't going to work in Ireland for a year you can claim that tax year back.
My point was that if you have to leave ever year or every few years then why should you have to pay tax. Yes you use public services while you are here but you also can't collect the dole and other such public services (state pension?) that citizens do...but you are still paying the same tax. On top of that you have to leave and go back "where ya came from" wether you have any ties to that place or not.
I'm not sure if you read the article or not but it shows how migrants pay more in than they get back.

Andrew 83

On Trinity: 87% of Trinity students are from Ireland. I would volunteer that a lot of the other 13% are a mixture of people from the North and Britain as well as other EU states. That said the college are actively seeking to up the number of non-EU students in the college to up money.

On the topic in general: Germany has made a terrible mess of immigration policy and is blatantly racist about it. The Turkish guest workers who moved to Germany in some cases up to three generations ago were never given citizenship and many of their grandchildren who've lived in Germany all their lives are still not entitled to it.

I think anyone who wants to come into Ireland should be able to and try to make their way. Let's not forget that some of the immigrants into Ireland (granted not many of them as a fraction of immigration as a whole) are refugees and asylum seekers who aren't allowed to work even if they want to.

pete

pete wrote:

If it's all the same with you I'll take my immigration policy analysis from someone who can actually spell the word "immigration". Thanks.

Pete,you should know better than to attack the poster.
Temporary ban for that.

johnnyboy4711

To whom it may concern!
there is going to be inbalance in Ireland until Irish people are treated as equals in there own country! At the moment it seems that anyone that decides to come into ireland have a couple of kids gets a housing allowance before irish people who have been on the waiting list for years!
Thus relying on the Irish sense of patience!
this is wrong!
Am I incorrect?
Its a typical Irish solution to an Irish problem,throw TAXPAYERS money at it and it will be fine!
Having previously worked for the past 5 years in a number of countries(Australia,New Zealand,America and the UK)I am amazed to see how the issue is being dealt with here!
After working in immigration in New Zealand I cannot understand how it is so easy for non-nationals to exploit the system.
As for the road network!?!
A Irish citizen and tax contributor,

Hobbes

johnnyboy4711 wrote:

Am I incorrect?

We will know when you quote actual sources of your information.

Oh and remember immigration is not the same as asylum seekers/refugees.

After working in immigration in New Zealand I cannot understand how it is so easy for non-nationals to exploit the system.

Again please quote actual sources of exploiting the system. Thanks.

bonkey

johnnyboy4711 wrote:

To whom it may concern!
Am I incorrect?

Yes, you are.

You fail to notive that there are a myriad of issues in which the Irish people are treated perferentially compared to non-Irish. Your plea for equal treatment is nothing of the sort, becuase you're not going to suggest giving up all the advantages we have in order to claw back some of the ways in which you (incorrectly) seem to think we are disadvantaged. What you want is equal-or-preferential-without-exception treatment for the Irish, not equal treatment.

Its also incorrect that we are disadvantaged in the manner you describe when discussing immigrants, as is the topic. Don't worry though - we're used to seeing those opposed to foreigners being in Ireland confuse the lines between immigrants and asylum seekers to suit their need to complain.

jc

gandalf

johnnyboy4711 wrote:

To whom it may concern!
there is going to be inbalance in Ireland until Irish people are treated as equals in there own country! At the moment it seems that anyone that decides to come into ireland have a couple of kids gets a housing allowance before irish people who have been on the waiting list for years!
Thus relying on the Irish sense of patience!
this is wrong!
Am I incorrect?
Its a typical Irish solution to an Irish problem,throw TAXPAYERS money at it and it will be fine!
Having previously worked for the past 5 years in a number of countries(Australia,New Zealand,America and the UK)I am amazed to see how the issue is being dealt with here!
After working in immigration in New Zealand I cannot understand how it is so easy for non-nationals to exploit the system.
As for the road network!?!
A Irish citizen and tax contributor,

Sources please?

Also next time I see you spamming the same message over multiple threads on Politics I will ban you.

KnowItAll

johnnyboy4711 wrote:

To whom it may concern!
there is going to be inbalance in Ireland until Irish people are treated as equals in there own country! At the moment it seems that anyone that decides to come into ireland have a couple of kids gets a housing allowance before irish people who have been on the waiting list for years!
Thus relying on the Irish sense of patience!
this is wrong!
Am I incorrect?
Its a typical Irish solution to an Irish problem,throw TAXPAYERS money at it and it will be fine!
Having previously worked for the past 5 years in a number of countries(Australia,New Zealand,America and the UK)I am amazed to see how the issue is being dealt with here!
After working in immigration in New Zealand I cannot understand how it is so easy for non-nationals to exploit the system.
As for the road network!?!
A Irish citizen and tax contributor,

Some people are blind to these problems and cannot see whats happening before their eyes.

Irish people should be given first choice in everything ( I'm sick of hearing about this equal rights crap!). Why should an Irish person be left wanting when things like houses and grants are given out to foreign nationals.

Victor

But the problem in Germany is a stagnant economy with large amounts of structural (largely people too old to be retrained in a new job) unemployment in the east.

bonkey

KnowItAll wrote:

I'm sick of hearing about this equal rights crap!

I'm guessing that as soon as some Irish person gets given advantages that are denied to you because of an "unequal rights" policy, that tune would change.

I'm sick of hearing of the number of people who complain about equality of any form for no apparent other reason than because it means they lose out.

But I guess we'll both just have to live with what sickens us.

jc

walshb

KnowItAll wrote:

Some people are blind to these problems and cannot see whats happening before their eyes.

Irish people should be given first choice in everything ( I'm sick of hearing about this equal rights crap!). Why should an Irish person be left wanting when things like houses and grants are given out to foreign nationals.

Knowitall, these Irish people aren't blind to the problem. The trouble is that an awful lot of people in Ireland especially the hoteliers and solicitors are getting very rich from these immigrants and asylum speakers. Everytime a deportation order is issued, some solicitor will challenge it and appeal it at the cost of the taxpayer. Hoteliers are being paid by the state to house these immigrants and refugees. It's a blank cheque for them. I have no problem what so ever with legitimate asylum seekers and immigrants, it's the abuse of the system that needs to be stopped. But what happens when we try apply the rules???, the 'dogooders' are up in arms calling the damn race card, refugee council and civil liberties etc etc. Ireland at the moment can't eve deal with their own people, yet the floodgates are opened here for anyone to enter without even the remotest sign of screening. My god, not even a health check is done and considering the rise of HIV and HEP C in the 3rd world, you would think that we would be more vigilant. As regards Irish people being given first choice or preference as regards housing etc. I agree fully. Take care of your own people first, then HEAL the world

Hobbes

KnowItAll wrote:

Some people are blind to these problems and cannot see whats happening before their eyes.

Again.. please quote some sources. You will never open anyones eyes if you just spout out like that.

The Corinthian

I was in Switzerland last week, where they’re presently in the process of holding a referendum that would ratify a number of bilateral agreements that they presently have with the EU. I loved the No Campaign posters in particular for their emotive and largely hysterical approach. Reading through this thread KnowItAll reminded me of this.

KnowItAll began with a fundamentally flawed theory that claimed that Germany’s economic woes were as a result of immigration. When it was pointed out to him (or her) that this was a simplistic supposition and that it ignored the effects of reunification, which (surprise, surprise) coincide with the decline of Germany’s economy, he (or she) quietly ignored the rather gaping hole in his (or her) logic.

Additionally, the effects of contract immigration when reversed on Ireland (in particular were the US or Australia to send back all those Irish who immigrated there) would more than reverse any benefits that we would escrow from such a policy here. This too was both pointed out to him (or her) and ignored.

Additionally no sources, let alone credible ones, have been proffered. Of course there’s nothing wrong with this as long as it is explained that this is opinion rather than fact, but the lack of deduction in this opinion seems to render it invalid.

If there is a problem with immigration, be it the volume or simply how it is handled, then this should be examined rationally and coldly. However, what has been put forward here has been little more than argument induced from a premise that it is bad rather than the reverse and appears to be as hysterical and emotive as the opposite calls that any criticism is tantamount to racism.

bonkey

The Corinthian wrote:

I was in Switzerland last week,

And we coulda done beers if I had known

where they’re presently in the process of holding a referendum that would ratify a number of bilateral agreements that they presently have with the EU.

Schengen/Dublin, this weekend. Looks like it should be a Yes vote.

I loved the No Campaign posters in particular for their emotive and largely hysterical approach.

Interestingly, such "hysteria-based" tactics have been so successful that someone on the Yes side did up a set of posters done in exactly the same style!

Offtopic, I know...but it just goes to show that the "sensationalist" approach of making big, brash, loud statements in order to cover up a lack of actual solid evidence to support the underlying theory is one that works.

Unfortunately.

elvenscout742

Not to criticise the way things are done or to turn this into a personal fight, but surely such blatant xenophobia as KnowItAll's warrants some kind of banning or something.

Obviously it's frowned upon, but nothing ever seems to be done about it, however much the need is.

To be on-topic, I say let immigrants in. The more the better. Although I don't much like thinking about what the PTB actually do with them once they arrive, as I always see a lot of Chinese in town but never anywhere else. Ghettos or something?

:mad: :mad: :mad:

MadsL

Interestingly in Australia where such stringent immigration policies that are (kind of inarticulately) being argued for here have historically been applied, they now find themselves almost 150,000 jobs cannot be filled for lack of the right skills.

http://www.economist.com/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3917626

Macmorris

billy the squid wrote:

If every country in the world were to adopt a policy we would be over run with irish sent home from the likes of America and Austrailia. And you can be sure that there are more Irish in other countries than there are Foreign nationals in this country.

then where would we be.

That sounds like a good idea. If thousands of Irish emigrants were to return home, we wouldn't have a labour shortage problem as the returning Irish would be able to fill those vacancies that are now being filled by the foreign immigrants. We would be able to solve the economic problems while at the same time avoiding the ethnic problems.

Of course the fat-cat employers groups wouldn't be happy with that. Contrary to what they may say, immigration isn't a necessity for them, it's a luxury. When they say they want skilled labour, what they really mean is easily-exploitable, obedient, cheap labour.

Macmorris

johnnyboy4711 wrote:

After working in immigration in New Zealand I cannot understand how it is so easy for non-nationals to exploit the system.

The reason the government is so soft on immigration is because there is nobody to challenge them. I think we must be the only country in Europe where immigration is not a mainstream political issue. Not only don't we have a well organised anti-immigration party but we don't even have a single high-profile politician who will openly admit that immigration is a problem that needs to be dealt with. Even Tony Blair is prepared to acknowledge that people in Britain have genuine fears over immigration.

It says a lot about the lazy, careerist politicians that we have in this country that not even one of them is prepared to speak up on behalf of the 80% of the population who want a tougher line on immigration. I'm sure there are plenty of politicians in Dail Eireann who are secretly unhappy about the open-borders set-up we now have but not one of them has the courage to stand up to the media and the unelected quangos (NCCRI) who are ready to jump on anyone who might take a less than enlightened view on immigration and muliticulturalism.

The Corinthian

bonkey wrote:

And we coulda done beers if I had known

I was staying near Zug, so I would have been a bit far from you. Perhaps next time I'm there

sceptre

Macmorris wrote:

not even one of them is prepared to speak up on behalf of the 80% of the population who want a tougher line on immigration.

I suspect that's partly because you just made up that 80% figure. Sounds good though doesn't it - massive majority unrepresented by the evil bad politician men?

bonkey

Macmorris wrote:

It says a lot about the lazy, careerist politicians that we have in this country that not even one of them is prepared to speak up on behalf of the 80% of the population who want a tougher line on immigration.

it says about as much as the implication that 80% of the population are incapable of finding a politician to stand for what they allegedly believe in.

Meh

Macmorris wrote:

I think we must be the only country in Europe where immigration is not a mainstream political issue. Not only don't we have a well organised anti-immigration party but we don't even have a single high-profile politician who will openly admit that immigration is a problem that needs to be dealt with.

Perhaps the reason for this is that we have, by and large, avoided the problems which can be associated with immigration? (paranoid fantasies about free cars and houses for asylum seekers apart.) Maybe it's because the number of asylum seekers has halved over the past few years? Maybe the people of this country are clever enough to tell the difference between asylum seekers, refugees and economic migrants?

It says a lot about the lazy, careerist politicians that we have in this country that not even one of them is prepared to speak up on behalf of the 80% of the population who want a tougher line on immigration.

Yeah, those politicians, always afraid to agree with public opinion :rolleyes: I'm sure they're being secretly terrorized by the evil masterminds of the NCCRI.

Macmorris

sceptre wrote:

I suspect that's partly because you just made up that 80% figure.

It wasn't me who made it up, it was the Sunday Tribune.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0501/poll.html

1203_axle_d3

suspect that's partly because you just made up that 80% figure

No, thats a correct figure. 80 percent of Irish people want immigration control. Who in their right mind doesent want immigration control?

johnnyboy4711

People say we are much better off than we were on the early eighties,yes agreed!but just as we get up on our feet there will be peolple trying to drag us down to our knees again!
we have been a member of the EU since 1972 all the revenue gained from structural funds since then and I have seen a major improvement in our infrastructure"EAST OF MAYNOOTH"only.
the countries that have just joined the EU have FACT a better more organised road,rail network.
amazing cinsidering that they have just come out of communism .
The point is now Ireland is going to get substantially less funding across the board,its time for the GOVT to realise that Europe will not always be there to bail us out.

gandalf

1203_axle_d3 wrote:

No, thats a correct figure. 80 percent of Irish people want immigration control. Who in their right mind doesent want immigration control?

Where is your proof it is the correct figure. Please provide backup to that.

As you are new to Politics you may not be aware that you are suppose to back up anything that you claim is a fact.

Macmorris

gandalf wrote:

Where is your proof it is the correct figure. Please provide backup to that.

It comes from an IMS poll that was carried out for the Sunday Tribune.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0501/poll.html

1203_axle_d3

It comes from an IMS poll that was carried out for the Sunday Tribune.

Yes..

As you are new to Politics you may not be aware that you are suppose to back up anything that you claim is a fact.

Is this a message board or a court room?? Maby not everything can be proved by the way of a link..

1203_axle_d3

1203_axle_d3 wrote:

Is this a message board or a court room?? Maby not everything can be proved by the way of a link..

It's a politics discussion forum.
We like to see sources to facts presented in the discussion,otherwise we treat them as opinion pieces to which you are entitled.


That poll says a lot of things.
Of course it's reasonable to have controlled immigration from outside the E.U
We can do and should accept all that come from inside the E.U ,we signed up to that many times over.

Is there any aspect of that poll with which you would disagree?

Hobbes

1203_axle_d3 wrote:

Is this a message board or a court room?? Maby not everything can be proved by the way of a link..

Then you post it as opinion. Its in the forum charter. Abusing the rule tends to get you banned. It is stop people posting crap without any source to back up.

Its an intresting that both sides of the argument are both claiming the survey is flawed for the same reason. Checked Stormfront and comments is that it should of said "Whites and non-whites" where as Irish refugee board complained that some people think "non-national" means refugee or asylum seeker.

The survey should be taken as its whole instead of just picking the stat you want.

For example the same percentage wanted a multi-cultural society and the majority wanted people to be able to work in Ireland while paperwork is being processed and 43% wanted non-nationals to recieve social welfare benefits if they were over 65.

Also while 79% wanted restrictions less then half of that wanted serious restrictions.

Haven't found the actual survey yet though. I'd be intrested to see the sampling data.

References:
http://www.irishrefugeecouncil.ie/pub05/fears.html
http://www.swp.ie/socialistworker/2005/sw242/socialistworker-242-4.htm
http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=202535

Macmorris

Hobbes wrote:

For example the same percentage wanted a multi-cultural society

I don't think that's true. What they were asked is if they thought it was a good thing that their children were growing up in a multicultural society. Naturally people will say yes because being exposed to different cultures is an important part of any child's education. I don't think you can infer from that a direct endorsement of multiculturalism in anything other than education.

It's interesting the way it was worded though. I can't see why they didn't just ask people straight-out if they themselves would want to live in a multicultural country. I'm fairly sure that if that question was put to them, most people would reject multiculturalism.

Hobbes

Macmorris wrote:

I don't think that's true. What they were asked is if they thought it was a good thing that their children were growing up in a multicultural society. Naturally people will say yes because being exposed to different cultures is an important part of any child's education. I don't think you can infer from that a direct endorsement of multiculturalism in anything other than education.

Except that they didn't ask about education. So you can't infer that either.

If you read the second link I posted (which has the stats listed) would imply that the majority do not have a problem with non-nationals across the board while some want restrictions but not a total shut down of borders.

uncivilservant

Ah, opinion polls. I think the writers of Yes Prime Minister got it just right:

Sir Humphrey: "You know what happens: nice young lady comes up to you. Obviously you want to create a good impression, you don't want to look a fool, do you? So she starts asking you some questions: Mr. Woolley, are you worried about the number of young people without jobs?"
Bernard Woolley: "Yes"
Sir Humphrey: "Are you worried about the rise in crime among teenagers?"
Bernard Woolley: "Yes"
Sir Humphrey: "Do you think there is a lack of discipline in our Comprehensive schools?"
Bernard Woolley: "Yes"
Sir Humphrey: "Do you think young people welcome some authority and leadership in their lives?"
Bernard Woolley: "Yes"
Sir Humphrey: "Do you think they respond to a challenge?"
Bernard Woolley: "Yes"
Sir Humphrey: "Would you be in favour of reintroducing National Service?"
Bernard Woolley: "Oh...well, I suppose I might be."
Sir Humphrey: "Yes or no?"
Bernard Woolley: "Yes"
Sir Humphrey: "Of course you would, Bernard. After all you told you can't say no to that. So they don't mention the first five questions and they publish the last one."
Bernard Woolley: "Is that really what they do?"
Sir Humphrey: "Well, not the reputable ones no, but there aren't many of those. So alternatively the young lady can get the opposite result."
Bernard Woolley: "How?"
Sir Humphrey: "Mr. Woolley, are you worried about the danger of war?"
Bernard Woolley: "Yes"
Sir Humphrey: "Are you worried about the growth of armaments?"
Bernard Woolley: "Yes"
Sir Humphrey: "Do you think there is a danger in giving young people guns and teaching them how to kill?"
Bernard Woolley: "Yes"
Sir Humphrey: "Do you think it is wrong to force people to take up arms against their will?"
Bernard Woolley: "Yes"
Sir Humphrey: "Would you oppose the reintroduction of National Service?"
Bernard Woolley: "Yes"
Sir Humphrey: "There you are, you see Bernard. The perfect balanced sample."

http://www.yes-minister.com/ypmseas1a.htm

ionapaul

Those of us still a tad confused on the subject:

Could someone define 'refugee' and 'asylum seeker' in a manner that clearly illustrates the difference between to two?