Luas Smart Card - WTF is the point?

Zombrex

I work in Sandyford and live near the Milltown luas stop, so naturally I get the Luas every morning and evening to and from work. I just signed up for the new Luas Smart Card which works like a top up card and has prices set at a single journey is the price of half a normal return ticket (so 2 trips with the smart card is the same price as a return ticket which is a few cent cheaper than buying two standard tickets). Using my Luas Smart card for a there-and-back trip to work 5 times a week will cost me €15 (€1.50 x 10)

I just looked on the Luas website and came across the 7 day "Flexi" ticket which will give me unlimited travel for 7 days from Milltown to Sandyford for €13 (daving of 2 euro plus the ability to use it when ever and how many times I want) and a "Flexi" ticket for all of the Green Line cost just €16 (I would only have to use it once into town to save me money)

So, considering the Smart Card is seemingly marketted to frequent users of the Luas (people who use it to get to work etc) I have to wonder what is the point of the Luas Smart Card as it ends up being more expensive if you actually use the Luas as your main mode of public transport?

Am I missing something? Is there a catch with the Flexi ticket I don't know about (only used "off peak" hours or something) or is the Smart Card just a dump idea?

robfitz

Wicknight wrote:

So, considering the Smart Card is seemingly marketted to frequent users of the Luas

No it's not.

http://luassmartcard.luas.ie/whois.shtml

The Luas smart card is best suited to people who use Luas often but not often enough to purchase a seven day or thirty day ticket. The price of a Luas smart card single fare is half the standard return fare. This is cheaper than a single ticket purchased from a Luas ticket machine. If you make two journeys using your smart card you will pay the same as you would have had you purchased a return ticket from the ticket machine. You do not require a Luas ID to obtain your Luas smart card.

Zombrex

robfitz wrote:

No it's not.

Thats interesting, didn't see that.

So I suppose the Flexi card is the way to go .. anyone want a slightly used Luas Smart Card

jlang

Any regular user should have a weekly or monthly ticket. It's the irregular (but still relatively frequent) users that the smart card is intended for. i.e. the ones who'd have to queue at the ticket machines.

KC61

The ultimate plan is that the smart cards can fulfill several purposes:

1) Act as the monthly flexi-ticket or, as now, as a journey-by-journey card
2) For multi-modal users (bus/rail;bus/luas; etc.), act as a period pass for the bus and a journey-by-journey card for the rail or vice versa for any number of combinations.

This is really a trial to see how it works.

nagero

Wicknight wrote:

So I suppose the Flexi card is the way to go .. anyone want a slightly used Luas Smart Card

Post it back to the RPA - From the luas website:

If you would like to return your Luas Smart Card and receive a refund please post it along with a covering letter to the address shown on the bottom right hand corner of this booklet. Your reserve funds and any stored value on the card will be returned to you. The €3 cost of the card is non-refundable.

murphaph

trainuser wrote:

This is really a trial to see how it works.

It's off-the-shelf technology. There's no need for a trial, it's been well established that this technology works. The RPA are muppets.

John R

murphaph wrote:

It's off-the-shelf technology. There's no need for a trial, it's been well established that this technology works. The RPA are muppets.

Can't disagree with that. There is no reason why all LUAS daily, weekly and monthly tickets cannot be applied to the smart cards right now. Obviously Luas/Bus and Luas/Rail have to remain paper only until the Rail and Bus systems are running.

It is the case that an astounding amount of regular/semi-regular Luas users were continuously buying singles and returns as the queues at Stephen's Green testified to, so there were a large number who apparently fit into the market for the current smart card product.

secret_squirrel

Ingore if this is rubbish - I've been on the luas twice - but wouldnt it be a good idea to have smart card dispensers on the platforms - so people can buy one as soon as they realise they need one? Presumably you would also have a top up machine and they would have enough intelligence built into the system to operate as the above named flexi-tickets too.

murphaph

secret_squirrel wrote:

Ingore if this is rubbish - I've been on the luas twice - but wouldnt it be a good idea to have smart card dispensers on the platforms - so people can buy one as soon as they realise they need one? Presumably you would also have a top up machine and they would have enough intelligence built into the system to operate as the above named flexi-tickets too.

Personally I'd be against this. They can sell them from newsagents or whatever. More vending machines means more clutter and more to vandalise and/or break down. One thing I like about the Luas is the minimalistic platform layout.

KC61

murphaph wrote:

It's off-the-shelf technology. There's no need for a trial, it's been well established that this technology works. The RPA are muppets.

I think that it's the passengers that they were thinking of in terms of trials....not the technology!!!

Irish people tend to be very wary of changing to any form of pre-paid ticket use - look at the numbers who still insist on paying cash every time on bus/train/luas.

murphaph

trainuser wrote:

I think that it's the passengers that they were thinking of in terms of trials....not the technology!!!

Irish people tend to be very wary of changing to any form of pre-paid ticket use - look at the numbers who still insist on paying cash every time on bus/train/luas.

I agree. Unfortunately the RPA will not help to solidify anybody's confidence in integrated ticketing because they are screwing the whole smart-card thing up royally. The 'Luas smart card' system is INCOMPATIBLE with future systems to be rolled out by CIE and private companies. The RPA were tasked with the ITS project and are messing it up as we speak.

Lennoxschips

They're introducing a chip card system here in Holland next year. Train, bus, tram and metro will all use the same smartcard. You can load it up with money and also load multiple subscription tickets onto it if you want, i.e. a monthly pass for the train between certain stations and a monthly pass for the bus between certain zones. And then you will be able to bung the odd ten or twenty euros onto the card as well for when you need to make odd trips that don't fall under your monthly pass subscription, or if you don't have one at all. The cards can be purchased either anonymously or have your name stored on them, which means you can have it blocked nationwide and your credit transferred to a new card if it's stolen.

These chip cards can hold so much information I don't see why Luas couldn't put all their products on the one card.

antoinolachtnai

murphaph wrote:

I agree. Unfortunately the RPA will not help to solidify anybody's confidence in integrated ticketing because they are screwing the whole smart-card thing up royally. The 'Luas smart card' system is INCOMPATIBLE with future systems to be rolled out by CIE and private companies. The RPA were tasked with the ITS project and are messing it up as we speak.

What evidence do you have for any of this?

MarkoP11

antoinolachtnai wrote:

What evidence do you have for any of this?

Its all in the terms and conditions, its even printed on the back of every single smartcard

8. Exchange of Smart Cards
The RPA may call on you to return your Smart Card at any reasonable time in order to issue you with a replacement or when the Luas Smart Card scheme is replaced by the Integrated Smart Card scheme. If your Smart Card contains a Travel Deposit or Stored Travel Value at that time, these will be refunded to you within a reasonable time, in a manner to be decided by the RPA and without interest.

murphaph

antoinolachtnai wrote:

What evidence do you have for any of this?

What Marko said. The muppets have even printed it all on the back of their TEMPORARY smart cards! These idiots were charged with bringing an integrated ticketing system into operation. They haven't done that and the smart card they're rolling out now is not part of that future system.

antoinolachtnai

Well, that doesn't prove anything. It's quite common for tokens to have to be updated or replaced to allow new functionality. All the three mobile operators have done this over the last few years with SIM cards.

Realistically, rolling out integrated ticketing is a three to five year project. From what I can see, no contractor has been appointed yet to implement the system, so we should't expect too much action before 2008. Having an interim scheme seems reasonable.

murphaph

antoinolachtnai wrote:

Well, that doesn't prove anything. It's quite common for tokens to have to be updated or replaced to allow new functionality. All the three mobile operators have done this over the last few years with SIM cards.

Realistically, rolling out integrated ticketing is a three to five year project. From what I can see, no contractor has been appointed yet to implement the system, so we should't expect too much action before 2008. Having an interim scheme seems reasonable.

When the RPA were established they were handed 3 things to do. Luas, metro and ITS. That's ITS, not a smart card for Luas followed by a NEW smart card for everything. We don't need an interim smart card, we need fully integrated ticketing (fares) now! There is no need for the smart card to provide integrated ticketing. As has been pointed out ad-nauseaum, the Luas TVMs can issue a ticket to anywhere on the IE network, but they don't, why not? You can buy a ticket from a DART TVM that lets you use the Luas between Connolly and Heuston.

antoinolachtnai

Well, it has to do with accounting, basically. In order to correctly apportion the proceeds of an integrated ticket, you need statistics about who is using what service, together with a formula for allocating revenue. The accuracy of the statistics you need depends on the size of the operators in the market. In the Dublin marketplace, where you have a growing number of autonomous operators you need very accurate statistics to allocate accurately, and the only practical means of doing this is using something like the smartcard.

Integrated ticketing and integrated fares are not the same thing. I know this sounds pedantic, but this is a different thing. Integrated fares are not really on the menu.

A lot of this has been gone through before in the Commuting/Transport archives.

What you suggest regarding selling combination tickets makes perfect sense to me. But it would only be applicable to the relatively small group of commuters who make their journey using the two rail companies services together.

(By way of disclosure, I should say that a company I am associated with has applied for a bus licence in the Dublin area, if anybody cares.)

murphaph

antoinolachtnai wrote:

Well, it has to do with accounting, basically. In order to correctly apportion the proceeds of an integrated ticket, you need statistics about who is using what service, together with a formula for allocating revenue. The accuracy of the statistics you need depends on the size of the operators in the market. In the Dublin marketplace, where you have a growing number of autonomous operators you need very accurate statistics to allocate accurately, and the only practical means of doing this is using something like the smartcard.

Integrated ticketing and integrated fares are not the same thing. I know this sounds pedantic, but this is a different thing. Integrated fares are not really on the menu.

A lot of this has been gone through before in the Commuting/Transport archives.

What you suggest regarding selling combination tickets makes perfect sense to me. But it would only be applicable to the relatively small group of commuters who make their journey using the two rail companies services together.

(By way of disclosure, I should say that a company I am associated with has applied for a bus licence in the Dublin area, if anybody cares.)

Ok, I totally understand that fare aportionment is essential in an integrated fares system for daily/seasn ticket holders, but there's NOTHING to stop the RPA from allowing me to purchase a SINGLE ticket from say Dundrum to Maynooth. They'd know exactly what portion of the fare would be due to IE/Connex. There's no need for passenger studies to correctly apportion fares in this case. It's a SINGLE ticket. But the RPA have failed to do this.

I actively support the notion of a smartcard for exactly the reason you outlined above (it's the BEST way to know how many pax use what service). I am on record here and elsewhere to that effect. I love the smart card idea, love the multiple season tickets all on one card etc. stuff. The technology is great but it's not integrated ticketing unless you can use it on all forms of transport. It's a Luas only smart card wich isn't even compatible with whatever the RPA replace it with???? That's crazy.

Third_Echelon

Systems like ITS just dont pop up and begin to work overnight you know. There has to be trials, tests and reworkings of systems and plans... and then it all has to be done again when they have fixed glitches etc. ITS is going to be a very big operation to implement....

The information technology systems that will run it have to be integrated, because no doubt, CIE, Luas and all the private operators will have different systems and these will have to integrated for billing purposes etc. These projects take time and the sooner people understand this the better...

Who says ITS should be here right now. It is eventually going to be up and running. Wouldn't it be better if it was tested and implemented properly and waiting for it, rather than throwing it out now and it falling flat on its face?

If a system is not ready to run properly there is absoutely no point in putting it into operation. If you do rush it, you will end up spending a lot more money fixing it than if you wait and do it properly.

People here are being way to critical of the whole thing. Fair enough there is a whole political red tape crap going on behind it from the government, but give it time and it will work.

The current Luas smart card system is a great idea. I use it on both the red and green lines and find it very handy. I use the Luas approximately 4 times per week. I dont have to queue. Great... St.Stephens Green is a nightmare at times...

The current luas smart card from what i can see is nothing to do with ITS. Its not integrated so why should you think that its part of ITS? The hardware on the platforms that they use to swipe the cards will be used in ITS no doubt. They are just ahead of the game and seeing how it will work for them... Fair play to Connex for bringing a trial of it in now in anticipation of ITS.

The current smart-card trial as another poster has said, is not a trial for the technology, its a trial to see how the people will use it and adapt to the use of this new system. They can see journey patterns and can plan for capacity for the future as they have exact details of journeys made and the volumes and peak hours etc.

With regards to the current smart card and the future ITS cards being incompatable.. what does that matter??

The systems that run the ITS will be compatable. The card that you use doesn't really matter. Just because the current physical luas smart card wont work on the futre ITS system doesn't mean ITS will be a failure or it wont work...

The device that you will use for ITS which will be a smart card will just be a newer form of card with more memory for example.

Do you really think that connex would have implemented a system that would not be compatable with future ITS implementation??? I dont think so..

enterprise

Good post, however it was the RPA, not Connex which launched the current LUAS smart card.

murphaph

Third_Echelon wrote:

Systems like ITS just dont pop up and begin to work overnight you know. There has to be trials, tests and reworkings of systems and plans... and then it all has to be done again when they have fixed glitches etc. ITS is going to be a very big operation to implement....

The information technology systems that will run it have to be integrated, because no doubt, CIE, Luas and all the private operators will have different systems and these will have to integrated for billing purposes etc. These projects take time and the sooner people understand this the better...

Who says ITS should be here right now. It is eventually going to be up and running. Wouldn't it be better if it was tested and implemented properly and waiting for it, rather than throwing it out now and it falling flat on its face?

If a system is not ready to run properly there is absoutely no point in putting it into operation. If you do rush it, you will end up spending a lot more money fixing it than if you wait and do it properly.

People here are being way to critical of the whole thing. Fair enough there is a whole political red tape crap going on behind it from the government, but give it time and it will work.

The current Luas smart card system is a great idea. I use it on both the red and green lines and find it very handy. I use the Luas approximately 4 times per week. I dont have to queue. Great... St.Stephens Green is a nightmare at times...

The current luas smart card from what i can see is nothing to do with ITS. Its not integrated so why should you think that its part of ITS? The hardware on the platforms that they use to swipe the cards will be used in ITS no doubt. They are just ahead of the game and seeing how it will work for them... Fair play to Connex for bringing a trial of it in now in anticipation of ITS.

The current smart-card trial as another poster has said, is not a trial for the technology, its a trial to see how the people will use it and adapt to the use of this new system. They can see journey patterns and can plan for capacity for the future as they have exact details of journeys made and the volumes and peak hours etc.

With regards to the current smart card and the future ITS cards being incompatable.. what does that matter??

The systems that run the ITS will be compatable. The card that you use doesn't really matter. Just because the current physical luas smart card wont work on the futre ITS system doesn't mean ITS will be a failure or it wont work...

The device that you will use for ITS which will be a smart card will just be a newer form of card with more memory for example.

Do you really think that connex would have implemented a system that would not be compatable with future ITS implementation??? I dont think so..

The RPA are reponsible for the Luas smart card, not Connex. The RPA already trialled the technology on Morton's buses. That was the trial. This is real. Does it worry you that the RPA has given carte-blanche to the CIE companies and private oprators to roll out their own smart card based systems which will all have to be integrated within the ITS project. They are not showing any form of leadership on this. They should be tightly controlling everything so that it can all be integrated easily. I am well aware of the complex nature of the ITS project. That's why I have little faith in the RPA's ability to complete it to satisfaction. Like I said, they could start with issuing single tickets from Luas TVMs to IE railway stations, but they don't.

Third_Echelon

murphaph wrote:

The RPA are reponsible for the Luas smart card, not Connex.

This is a minor point. Doesn't really matter...

murphaph wrote:

The RPA already trialled the technology on Morton's buses. That was the trial. This is real.

So because they trialled this on mortons, they shouldn't on Luas? I dont see why not... There will be more people using Luas than mortons therefore they have a larger test bed to work from.

It is better to gradually introduce the idea of smart card and integrated ticketing rather than just launching all at once. Firstly people will fail to understand it/accept it due to information overload. Secondly phased release projects are a lot easier to manage and troubleshoot when problems arise.

murphaph wrote:

Does it worry you that the RPA has given carte-blanche to the CIE companies and private oprators to roll out their own smart card based systems which will all have to be integrated within the ITS project.

No, not at all. Their systems can be easily integrated through technolgy solutions.

murphaph wrote:

They are not showing any form of leadership on this. They should be tightly controlling everything so that it can all be integrated easily.

I believe they are showing leadership. You can't force certain companies to use a certain type of system or vendor for their system. You can give them standards and minimum requirements. Thats all that is needed. Integration can be worked on from this point forward.

The easy part is integrating the systems. The hard part is getting people to use the service/technology.

murphaph wrote:

I am well aware of the complex nature of the ITS project. That's why I have little faith in the RPA's ability to complete it to satisfaction. Like I said, they could start with issuing single tickets from Luas TVMs to IE railway stations, but they don't.

Possibly because the systems aren't integrated yet????

MarkoP11

Third_Echelon wrote:

Possibly because the systems aren't integrated yet????

Both Luas and IE ticket vending machines are the technically the same, since the mag strip is not used on Luas it doesn't matter. All an IE machine has to print is Luas stop name x on the ticket

The issue is the RPA have a vested interest in Luas, they have no interest in anyone else. A independent body should have been in charge of this. They are called the DTO. A key issue here is ensuring how everyone gets a fair share of the farebox, the commission level for who sold the tickets etc, you need an independent body for that

murphaph

Third_Echelon wrote:

This is a minor point. Doesn't really matter...

Yes it does. The RPA have been given overall respoonsibility for integrated ticketing in Ireland. You made ou that the Luas operator was merely 'ahead of the game' but that's not the case. It's not the Luas operator being ahead of anything-it's the responsible government agency covering up the fact that they are not rolling out inegrated ticketing but insead are rolling out a smart card for Luas only. Integrated ticketing could start immediately with single tickets from Luas TVMs allowing me to travel from Rialto to Kildare. But that isn't what they're focusing on. They're focusing on a smart card which has already been proven to work the world over, including here!

Third_Echelon wrote:

So because they trialled this on mortons, they shouldn't on Luas? I dont see why not... There will be more people using Luas than mortons therefore they have a larger test bed to work from.

How many trials do you want before they get stuck into REAL integrated ticketing, not a smart card that just 'electronifies' the single Luas ticket.

Third_Echelon wrote:

It is better to gradually introduce the idea of smart card and integrated ticketing rather than just launching all at once. Firstly people will fail to understand it/accept it due to information overload. Secondly phased release projects are a lot easier to manage and troubleshoot when problems arise.

When you travel to London or wherever you EXPECT to be able to buy a daily/weekend ticket for London Transport etc. No such tickets exist here and that's what the RPA should be focusing on. I hink you credit Irish people with little intelligence if you think they can't handle the idea of integrated fares.

Third_Echelon wrote:

No, not at all. Their systems can be easily integrated through technolgy solutions.

This is not true. It will be a software (and possibly hardware) engineers nightare to get 4+ different ticketing systems to integrate later on. Why should this even happen when the RPA could step in now and take the lead, instructing each company what they need to do to ensure compatiblity.

Third_Echelon wrote:

I believe they are showing leadership. You can't force certain companies to use a certain type of system or vendor for their system. You can give them standards and minimum requirements. Thats all that is needed. Integration can be worked on from this point forward.

I agree, but the RPA appear not to even be using a system that will hold compatibility with itself from that point forward! Their own cards won't be compatible with their future system.

Third_Echelon wrote:

The easy part is integrating the systems. The hard part is getting people to use the service/technology.

Other way round.

Third_Echelon wrote:

Possibly because the systems aren't integrated yet????

Exactly. They aren't and the RPA isn't doing anthing to integrate the fares either. The Luas smart card != integrated ticketing or anything like it. It actually suits very few people to even use it as regular users will buy weekly/monthly tickets. Infrequent users get the same value from the TVM and tourists aren't going to pay €3 for the privilege of holding a bit of RPA plastic. The Luas smart card doesn't even hold the season tickets so regular users might actually be able to renew their tickets online!!

Zaph0d

antoinolachtnai wrote:

Realistically, rolling out integrated ticketing is a three to five year project.

Why so long? Why not 3 months? Hong Kong has had stored value multimodal smart cards since 1989 and RFID based cards since 1997. London's Oyster card system is up and running. So one would imagine that implementing smart cards for a small city would be a case of picking up the phone to MTR, agreeing a price and installing some well tested technology. What's different about a multimodal ticketing system in Dublin and a system in any other city?

I don't follow you at all here:

The accuracy of the statistics you need depends on the size of the operators in the market. In the Dublin marketplace, where you have a growing number of autonomous operators you need very accurate statistics to allocate accurately, and the only practical means of doing this is using something like the smartcard.

Smart cards are ticketless, no? You swipe and get on your bus or train, swipe off when you descend. Use the same card everywhere. Buy a paper, buy a sandwich. like a credit card. So what's all this about statistical division of fare revenue? this would only arise if you were actually purchasing physical multi-modal tickets. Clearly you understand this from your bus project but I don't get it. Can you explain?

Metrobest

Let's not forget that CIE has had decades to integrate ticketing amongst its bus and rail sub-divisions. It failed. The issue is not whether or not the RPA has gotten ahead of the game; it's that CIE has dragged its heels on this for decades.

Zaph0d

And is smart card ticketing not a money spinner? All that public cash living interest free on your bits of plastic. Less humans to operate the system. Makes public transport more attractive to the public.

I was at the bus stop the other day and there were five tourists trying to board a bus with a fiver. The driver explained that he couldn't take bank notes. (he didn't mention that he doesn't give change). The tourists struggled to understand how stupid this system was. Even the driver looked a bit embarrassed. Eventually they had to get off and flag down a taxi.

murphaph

Metrobest wrote:

Let's not forget that CIE has had decades to integrate ticketing amongst its bus and rail sub-divisions. It failed.

Couldn't agree more. Why didn't successive government do something about it instead of creating yet another agency to 'deal' with it?

murphaph

Zaph0d wrote:

I don't follow you at all here:Smart cards are ticketless, no? You swipe and get on your bus or train, swipe off when you descend. Use the same card everywhere. Buy a paper, buy a sandwich. like a credit card. So what's all this about statistical division of fare revenue? this would only arise if you were actually purchasing physical multi-modal tickets. Clearly you understand this from your bus project but I don't get it. Can you explain?

smart cards are the perfect technology for fair division of revenue which is the main reason I support their use, but that's not what the RPA are working on. They're just putting single & return Luas tickets in an electronic format. Nothing more. Wonderful eh?

Third_Echelon

murphaph wrote:

Yes it does. The RPA have been given overall respoonsibility for integrated ticketing in Ireland. You made ou that the Luas operator was merely 'ahead of the game' but that's not the case. It's not the Luas operator being ahead of anything-it's the responsible government agency covering up the fact that they are not rolling out inegrated ticketing but insead are rolling out a smart card for Luas only.

That wasn't my point... I didn't really care who rolled it out connex or RPA, that wasn't the point i was making. My point was that it was an organisation in charge of luas...

Has the RPA ever stated that they are not implementing ITS, but just implementing the 'lesser' luas only smart card? No I didn't hear anything about this.

Ok the RPA has been given this responsibility of implementing ITS. The current luas smart card system is an interim solution for luas to see how it goes... It is a new system and they might as well use current technology from the start rather than introducing it at a later stage only when ITS is fully up and running. They cant setup an ITS if other transport organisations such as Dublin Bus, Bus Eireann and Irish Rail, which all fall under CIE get their act together and get the technology on their modes of transport.

Whats the point of having an ITS if I currently can't swipe when I get onto a Dublin Bus for example???

murphaph wrote:

Integrated ticketing could start immediately with single tickets from Luas TVMs allowing me to travel from Rialto to Kildare. But that isn't what they're focusing on. They're focusing on a smart card which has already been proven to work the world over, including here!

Who said that they are focusing on luas only smart cards?

More than likely the reason that it can't be used on CIE is because they dont have the ticket reading equipment to put on their platforms or buses... These things take time to implement.

murphaph wrote:

How many trials do you want before they get stuck into REAL integrated ticketing, not a smart card that just 'electronifies' the single Luas ticket.

Have RPA said that the current luas smart card is anything other than this? No.

Have you ever heard the phrase, "Test, Test and Test again"? Practice makes perfect. There's no harm in making sure that the technology will work properly. No doubt if it failed you would be the type of person giving them stick in the future for not testing it....

murphaph wrote:

When you travel to London or wherever you EXPECT to be able to buy a daily/weekend ticket for London Transport etc. No such tickets exist here and that's what the RPA should be focusing on. I hink you credit Irish people with little intelligence if you think they can't handle the idea of integrated fares.

Of course they can handle the idea of integrated fares. Its the method that it is being presented in i.e in smart card format, that will daunt some people. New systems take a while to get used to. Remember Ireland has never had this type of thing before...

If you asked your granny if she knew what a smart card is and if she knew what intergrated fares were, do you think she would know? Do you think she'd know how to top up her credit on her smart card?
People will have to be informed on how to adapt to the new system...

murphaph wrote:

This is not true. It will be a software (and possibly hardware) engineers nightare to get 4+ different ticketing systems to integrate later on. Why should this even happen when the RPA could step in now and take the lead, instructing each company what they need to do to ensure compatiblity.

Part of my job is in systems integration. These types of projects happen every day of the week and CAN BE DONE.... its not that hard to do but they can be lenghty projects..

Do you know for a fact that the RPA hasn't instructed the companies on what they need to use?

murphaph wrote:

I agree, but the RPA appear not to even be using a system that will hold compatibility with itself from that point forward! Their own cards won't be compatible with their future system.

The cards are immetarial. They are cheap bits of plastic that can be replaced for a few euro. They'll probably even replace them for free...
You seem to be getting stuck on the notion that because the current smart cards wont work on the ITS system that the project will be a failure.

murphaph wrote:

Other way round.

No. Sorry dont agree with you on this.

murphaph wrote:

Exactly. They aren't and the RPA isn't doing anthing to integrate the fares either. The Luas smart card != integrated ticketing or anything like it. It actually suits very few people to even use it as regular users will buy weekly/monthly tickets. Infrequent users get the same value from the TVM and tourists aren't going to pay €3 for the privilege of holding a bit of RPA plastic. The Luas smart card doesn't even hold the season tickets so regular users might actually be able to renew their tickets online!!

OK I think we've established the fact that the current luas smart card IS NOT part of the future integrated ticketing system.

Its the first step...

I have no doubt that in the future that you will be able to load montly/weekly tickets onto your card and load credit from the web.

THESE THINGS TAKE TIME. ACCEPT IT....

murphaph

It appears that our fundamental disagreement is our levels of faith in the RPA. While you appear optimistic (and very patient) about their ability to deliver ITS, I am not.

You are right that a bit of plastic is a bit of plastic (with uC + memory & antenna) but aren't you even slightly concerned that the RPA are happy to implement a card which will need to be replaced by a slightly different card in the short term? Wy not roll out a card that will not need replacing (unless of course they haven't got a clue what the next step will be)?

They are a short-sighted agency as evidenced by their 2-car metro (joke) proposal and the sooner serious questions are asked of them the better.

Victor

Third_Echelon wrote:

You can't force certain companies to use a certain type of system or vendor for their system. You can give them standards and minimum requirements. Thats all that is needed. Integration can be worked on from this point forward.

When the state owns both CIÉ and the RPA, a policy statement can mean you can "impose" a solution.

Third_Echelon

murphaph wrote:

It appears that our fundamental disagreement is our levels of faith in the RPA. While you appear optimistic (and very patient) about their ability to deliver ITS, I am not.

Yes thats what it seems to be. Agreed that government agencies do need a kick up the @ss to get things running, but i'll give the benefit of the doubt...

murphaph wrote:

You are right that a bit of plastic is a bit of plastic (with uC + memory & antenna) but aren't you even slightly concerned that the RPA are happy to implement a card which will need to be replaced by a slightly different card in the short term? Wy not roll out a card that will not need replacing (unless of course they haven't got a clue what the next step will be)?

I wouldn't really be concerned about this to be honest. Of course it would make sense to issue a card that would work in the future but there are probably good reasons why it hasn't been done this way. The cost is minor.
Perhaps it could even be something as simple as branding on the card???
Technically the ITS system doesn't exist as a product yet..

Who knows, but its not a major obsticle..

murphaph wrote:

They are a short-sighted agency as evidenced by their 2-car metro (joke) proposal and the sooner serious questions are asked of them the better.

As I said before if they fail to deliver then questions should be asked, but I think we should wait and hear what the latest update and timescale on implementation that there is on ITS before making judgement.

Third_Echelon

Victor wrote:

When the state owns both CIÉ and the RPA, a policy statement can mean you can "impose" a solution.

True, but we all know how inter-department communication and co-operation is in irish government.

I'd reckon that they will implement the same systems, but you never know..

Victor

Third_Echelon wrote:

Whats the point of having an ITS if I currently can't swipe when I get onto a Dublin Bus for example??? More than likely the reason that it can't be used on CIE is because they dont have the ticket reading equipment to put on their platforms or buses... These things take time to implement.

The 49 and 65 (and others) have new ticket machines and many busses have had black boxes fitted next to the existing ticket readers (one small metal box and a larger plastic casing that holds both).

Have you ever heard the phrase, "Test, Test and Test again"? Practice makes perfect.

Ever hear "Shít or get off the pot?" Being excessively risk averse is itself risky.

Third_Echelon

Victor wrote:

The 49 and 65 (and others) have new ticket machines and many busses have had black boxes fitted next to the existing ticket readers (one small metal box and a larger plastic casing that holds both).

I actually saw this on the 65B this evening... It seemed to be printing tickets like the 'ready to go' phone credit slips.

Is this Dublin Bus's trial? I haven't seen anything with regards to smart cards being available for dublin bus.

Victor wrote:

Ever hear "Shít or get off the pot?" Being excessively risk averse is itself risky.

Agreed, but the trials done so far have not been excessive...

antoinolachtnai

As I understand it, the systems all comply to the same physical specs. It's the various overlays (software, clearing, keys and so on) that have to be integrated later.

One reason this takes longer in Ireland than in Hong Kong is that the public transport marketplace is more consolidated and settled, whereas in Dublin the marketplace is continuing to fragment. Another thing to consider is that it actually took from 1993 to 1997 to actually implement the card in the first place, and there was a magstripe system in place from 1989 onwards, so many of the commercial and settlement issues had already been dealt with. (All according to Wikipedia.)

The thing about interest on the money stuck in the system is something we often hear about banks and governments. It might have worked in the old days when there were double-digit interest rates, but there's not much money to be made from it now. The Irish system would proably have about 15 million in it at any one time. That will generate interest of around 300,000 euros/year at current ECB rates. Suffice to say, there are easier ways out there of earning that sort of money than putting in an ITS.

Zaphod asked about the fare-split issue. He's basically right. People pay for what they use, and that should be all there is about it. However, there are some difficult things about this:

- people who change buses (say) have to get a discount on the fare when they get on the second bus. This is a core requirement of the integrated ticketing system, and it was the original motivation for the whole system (before the plan to deregulate the bus business emerged). There has to be some revenue split formula to make this work, and it obviously needs a smartcard system or similar, so you can tell how many people switched between which buses.

- setting up a full scale electronic money system is not actually so easy. It's a very big undertaking. There are complicated commercial, legal, logistical and clearing/settlement issues to sort out. What is the card in the first place, hard currency, or some sort of new-fangled promissory note? How is the money paid into the system collected? Where does the money go? What is the commission rate for the ticket-seller? For the operator of the smartcard system? How are refunds handled? What is the settlement period? How do you track down and prosecute fraud? All stuff that can be sorted out, but it takes time and money, loads of it.

In addition, in a public transport system you have to be completely confident that the whole electronic cash system will work more or less 100 percent from day one. If it stops working some morning, you could easily be looking at a loss of 1 million euros/day, because fares would go uncollected. A few days of that would force many of the operators (possibly even the State operators) into examinership. Even a delay of a week or so in the clearing system could result in a major financial disaster. The risk with this approach is incredibly high.

In London, they got around the problems of the dangerous startup period by starting with smartcarding the longer-term season tickets. The revenue from these is much easier to lock in, so it keeps the risk much lower. (In non-project-managers English, this means that the passengers have already paid their season ticket and know they have to have it ready for inspection anyhow, so it really doesn't matter if the ticket validation system screws up occasionally in the early stages.)

If you want to do a season ticket, on the other hand, you have a whole bunch of extra commercial issues to deal with. When you have 5 or 10 operators in play, all with their own fare schedules, fareboxes and profitability models, it will be difficult to agree on an across-the-board season ticket. The CIE companies seem to have a tough time doing it as it is, and they are all owned by the same shareholder.

Zaph0d

Nope, I still don't get it. Why can't we just buy something from someone else, configure it and turn it on? Every one of the concerns mentioned has been solved in other cities for more than a decade. 16 years ago in Hong Kong, I could use a smart card to get a bus or a train or buy a Big Mac.

Lets look at the different layers required for a smart card system:

• physical layer (RFID cards + card readers)
• authentication layer
• credit authorization layer
• top up by phone/sms/shop etc
• commission structure for resellers
• allowing the card to auto-discount when multiple journeys are used in a certain period
• allowing annual tickets and ad-hoc out of zone journeys to work with the same card
• business process for lost/broken cards and refunds
• settlement system so revenue is correctly shared by participants
• commercial agreements between independent operators

All of these problems have been solved and tested on millions of people over billions of journeys.

The only difference you have pointed out about Dublin is that there are so many fareboxes. So what? The vast bulk of journeys take place by dublin bus, luas and irish rail. Why hold up a service because there isn't a commercial agreement with St Kevin's bus to Glendalough?

Your fears about the legal status of a smart card sound like the kind of improbable scenarios that a conservative company lawyer comes up with whenever I put any suggestion to them. A smartcard would presumably have the same legal status as a loyalty card for a petrol station or supermarket. Outsource the settlement to a company that's doing it successfully for someone else. If anyone's unhappy you can send them a cheque for the value on their card. How hard is that? And how often will it happen? Copy one of the settlement systems used by the hundreds of loyalty cards that work between multiple independent commercial businesses.

For example: Nectar , airmiles, piggypoints.

It's the 3 to 5 years bit I don't understand. It sounds too long by on order of magnitude. Now I know nothing about smartcards so maybe I'm missing something here.

Zaph0d

I'd like the smart card to work in taxis.

antoinolachtnai

Well, I could tell you it's going to take 12 months to implement, in fact the NRA already has told you that. But it's not. It's going to take 3-5 years. How do I know that? Two ways:

1. Because that's the amount of time it always takes to roll out a system of this scale from scratch.

2. Because of the procurement and implementation process which will inevitably be involved. It will take 3-6 months to run a tender process and get an overall vendor. Then there will be some sort of requirements phase which will take 6 months or so to get signed off. Then there will be purchasing of software, which will take 3 months. Then there will be a software integration phase, possibly involving development of a small or large amount of bespoke software. This will take 6 to 9 months to develop, set up and fully test. At the same time, equipment purchase and test will be going on. It will take 6 months to roll out the equipment to shops (including putting in communications facilities in ever shop) and throughout the transport system. There will be a 6-month 'shakedown' to deal with integration issues that come up. Finally, you will be ready to begin commercial introduction, with full availability a year later. That's about 42 months, assuming everything goes as well as possible, and you just can't do it any faster than that. Realistically, allow another 12 months for screw-ups.

This is assuming you buy in a system. There's still a lot of work involved in integrating a system you buy in with the existing infrastructure. It's unlikely that Wayfarer ticket machines are commonly used in HK, for example, so that's a fresh piece of integration that has never been done before. Equally, the banks here have their own slightly unique procedures.

The other thing you are forgetting is that the small operators aren't just minor add-ons to the Irish transport situation. The current plan is that small operators will take over more and more of the transport system as time goes on. So this has to be planned for from the very beginning.

A smartcard isn't anything like a loyalty card. Technically, a loyalty card isn't a stored-value card. Legally, the loyalty card isn't a promissory instrument.

Transport is an 'essential service' and the payment system especially so. You can't escape from your obligation to operate the system correctly just by offering to refund money to people who have a problem with it. People will have to use this system whether they like it or not. The same goes for transport companies.

drrnwbb

i used the smart card when i was back in dublin on holidays last week, i loved it... the first time i used it i was going from the four courts to heuston station. and i "tagged on" and went into the tram.. then a ticket inspector came and asked for my ticket, so i took the card out of my wallet and showed it to him. he took it off me, looked at it as if it was his first time to ever see one of them and then he handed it back to me. he didnt read/scan it. a bit crazy. i got a good laugh out of it though.

anyhoo, sorry for the little thread bump there.

dw

d_mcevoy

drrnwbb wrote:

i used the smart card when i was back in dublin on holidays last week, i loved it... the first time i used it i was going from the four courts to heuston station. and i "tagged on" and went into the tram.. then a ticket inspector came and asked for my ticket, so i took the card out of my wallet and showed it to him. he took it off me, looked at it as if it was his first time to ever see one of them and then he handed it back to me. he didnt read/scan it. a bit crazy. i got a good laugh out of it though.

anyhoo, sorry for the little thread bump there.

dw

Same thing happened me, do the inspector have a machine to check if a card is "tagged on"??

It would appear not!

MarkoP11

They do have a gadet to read the cards you just don't see them often

Al Swearingen

I too have been on the LUAS once or twice and seen this as well, but in my case I challenged one of the inspectors as to why they did not have a smart card reader on them to check the smart cards. The answer I got was brief and to the point, the inspector said "they (the readers) dont work properly" - on further investigation into this I was informed by my various sources as follows - "The equipment is oversize, too heavy and is blatantly dogged with problems, most of the time the readers do not "connect" with the hand-held units, its tag on "detection" is so unreliable the inspectors have been told not to issue a standard fare even if you haven't tagged on, as they simply dont trust the equipment". - I mean, what kind of system is this?

This is all 2nd hand information so I cannot confirm its accuracy/truth but if it is true, then you have to ask where did the €12m euro go?

kathola

I know it has been some time since this topic has been posted on but can anyone tell me what the best value for money is?

I work in the IFSC. I take the Luas from Red 4 to Docklands most days.

At least one evening a week I get the bus directly home which costs 2.20
I also usually take the bus in and out of town at least one day per weekend which costs 4.40 return.

Is it worth my while getting a Luas smartcard AND a bus smartcard or what would be the most cost efficient way to pay?

KC61

Well for a start - as I have said before anyone paying the EUR 2.20 cash fare on the bus needs their head examined.

The Travel 90 smartcard costs EUR 18 for 10 journeys - that works out at EUR 1.80 per trip - a saving of EUR 0.40 per journey and it is valid for approximately 18 months.

You are currently paying:
EUR 4.70 return 4 days a week, and (I am guessing here) a peak single of EUR 2.60 and then EUR 6.60 in bus fares.

That totals EUR 21.40 in LUAS cash fares and EUR 6.60 in bus fares - EUR 28.00 per week.

A seven day LUAS ticket for that trip costs EUR 20.80.
4 round trips and one single trip using a smart card is EUR 19.80.

Therefore your best alternatives are:

LUAS Smartcard (provided you do not go over 4 round trips and one single trip - otherwise LUAS 7-day ticket for Zone 4-Docklands) and a Dublin Bus Travel 90 Smartcard (Cost EUR 18.00).

For info, the weekly LUAS/Bus ticket costs EUR 29.

trellheim

What, if any, are the plans to merge DB ,IR, LUAS smartcards ?

No interest in opening the old chestnuts just want to know if there's a plan ?

antoinolachtnai

If kathola is on PAYE and pays tax at the higher rate, and his/her employer offers the taxsaver scheme, then there would be a saving to be had from getting the luas monthly or yearly ticket on that scheme. If not paying at the higher rate, probably would not make sense from the figures KC61 has calculated.

colsku

Lennoxschips wrote: »

They're introducing a chip card system here in Holland next year. Train, bus, tram and metro will all use the same smartcard. You can load it up with money and also load multiple subscription tickets onto it if you want, i.e. a monthly pass for the train between certain stations and a monthly pass for the bus between certain zones. And then you will be able to bung the odd ten or twenty euros onto the card as well for when you need to make odd trips that don't fall under your monthly pass subscription, or if you don't have one at all. The cards can be purchased either anonymously or have your name stored on them, which means you can have it blocked nationwide and your credit transferred to a new card if it's stolen.

These chip cards can hold so much information I don't see why Luas couldn't put all their products on the one card.

Exact same in Helsinki. A wonderful system of integrated metros, buses, trams trains and even at least one boat!