Go on, the Gardai!! \o/ \o/ \o/

Garibaldi

One less scumbag to worry about....apart from the do-gooders forcing it through the courts for the next few years. :rolleyes: Don't forget to mail the Garda Press Office to say thanks.

Post office raider shot dead by Gardai in north Co Dublin

09:03 Thursday May 26th 2005


Gardai have shot and killed an armed raider during an attempted robbery at a post office in north Co Dublin this morning.

Details of the incident are still sketchy, but up to three men are believed to have been involved in the attempted raid in the village of Lusk.

They were being watched by Gardai, who are believed to have killed one raider and injured another, apparently during an exchange of gunfire.

Reports this morning said the dead man was in his 40s, was known to Gardai and had been involved in previous armed robberies.

seamus

It's about time they got tough on it.

As someone said a few weeks back on Primetime (the one about gun crime) - The Gardai raid houses and make massive drug seizures, and then a day or two later you'll see a bank raid or a post office raid to try and pay back the cost of those seized drugs.

And haven't the Gardai made some big drug seizures recently? It's a vicious circle until you decide to remove the cause of the circle.

segadreamcast

Jeez, a bit heartless - yes he was probably a horrible person, but a person nevertheless - death should never be commended really.

seamus

NoelRock wrote:

Jeez, a bit heartless - yes he was probably a horrible person, but a person nevertheless - death should never be commended really.

No, but he knew the risks, he died. Fnck him.

Larianne

Here, here!!

The sooner they are all gotten rid of the better!! Fair play to the Gardai.

Let them all have guns and blow each others heads off.

wideband

Garibaldi wrote:

Reports this morning said the dead man was in his 40s, was known to Gardai and had been involved in previous armed robberies.

I wonder who this is??? any guesses!!

Garibaldi

A friend of NoelRock? Just kidding!

yes he was probably a horrible person, but a person nevertheless

Now, it's exactly this line of thinking that will have the Garda dragged through the courts for the next few years, reducing the willingness of the Gardai to do the job and increasing the brazenness of ensuing criminal acts. Whilst I'm certainly not saying that we should have a police state, when an inidividual is a clear and immediate danger to society (exchange of gunfire), then they need to be removed without treating the officer, forced to do it, as a criminal.

HelterSkelter

Yeah, it must be the Guards new tatic, they are too incompetant to convict any of these criminals so just kill them instead :rolleyes:

loz

Excellent - saves on taxes ( prison fees )

There should be more of this, and for lesser crimes also !

bring on Judge Dread

edmund_f

HelterSkelter wrote:

Yeah, it must be the Guards new tatic, they are too incompetant to convict any of these criminals so just kill them instead :rolleyes:

may be a lot of truth in that..

think i will do all of my banking online from now on..

Garibaldi

These kinds of desperate acts are what happen when you raise the cost of a stamp.

they are too incompetant to convict any of these criminals so just kill them instead

Judge Curtin, anyone?

flogen

It's a sad day when this is the best solution to a problem, but at the same time I can't help but feel that there is some good in this.
I just hope it doesn't make things worse (more criminals carry more guns to protect themselves from the Gardai and so on)

Repli

Yeah, it must be the Guards new tatic, they are too incompetant to convict any of these criminals so just kill them instead

That's ridiculous. The man doing the armed raid was ARMED.. he was firing shots at gardai in a public place.. If a stray bullet fired by him killed one of your friends or family, you would think differently.. what were they supposed to do? Threaten him with a baton? They had no choice but to shoot him

Lemming

Whilst I can't help but feel there is a certain sense of poetic justice in this case, and as much as I might think the gardai were right in their actions, I wont be seen cheering the fact that someone got killed.

egan007

flogen wrote:

It's a sad day when this is the best solution to a problem, but at the same time I can't help but feel that there is some good in this.
I just hope it doesn't make things worse (more criminals carry more guns to protect themselves from the Gardai and so on)

True - while a part of me believes he got what he deserved I'm sad that Ireland can go this way.....introducing more guns is not the way to reduce gun crime.

joe.

Lemming wrote:

Whilst I can't help but feel there is a certain sense of poetic justice in this case, and as much as I might think the gardai were right in their actions, I wont be seen cheering the fact that someone got killed.

I second that. Could well be a boards.ie user's father that was killed. Sickening

loz

joe. wrote:

I second that. Could well be a boards.ie user's father that was killed. Sickening

However a scumbag guntoting postoffice robbing father

Repli

Second raider killed..

Second raider dies after Lusk post office shoot-out
26/05/2005 - 11:01:49

A second man has died after being shot by gardaí during an attempted armed robbery at a post office in north Co Dublin this morning.

Five raiders were involved in the incident, which happened in the village of Lusk shortly after 8am.

The gang arrived at the scene in a number of stolen cars, but gardaí had been lying in wait for them inside the post office.

An exchange of gunfire apparently ensued, leaving one of the raiders dead and a second seriously injured.

The injured man was taken to Beaumont Hospital, where he died a short time later.

Three other men were also arrested and the scene was subsequently sealed off pending technical examination by forensic experts.

Gardaí have also launched an internal investigation into the incident, as is normal whenever shots are fired by members of the force. Chief Superintendent Kevin Ludlow has been appointed to head up that investigation.

Nietzschean

flogen wrote:

I just hope it doesn't make things worse (more criminals carry more guns to protect themselves from the Gardai and so on)

Exchange of gunfire... I doubt very much the gardai fired first..... which kinda makes this theory a bit odd really. The crimials already have the guns and are the ones likely to use em, ye can't say Gardai returning fire is likely to keep the cycle going r dat. If they were like in america where they shoot ye if ye try run away maybe, but returning fire is just self defence...

And in general, if ye fire on someone you have to be willing to accept death, its as simple as that. I don't like to see someone die, but if they carry a gun and fire it i've no sympathy for them....

Repli

I completely agree with Darth Bobo. If the gardai were not armed, -their- lives would have been in serious danger.

seamus

^^
What he said. Our own Gardai don't use weapons willy-nilly. They will shoot to kill if they have to though. It may well have been a boards user's father that was killed, but that doesn't excuse the fact that he was killed while carrying out an armed raid on a post office, and was killed because he obviously posed a mortal threat to innocent people around him.

I'd rather him dead than a Garda or Post Office worker.

civdef

Just to point out, this is't the Old West - firing first is legally acceptable in certain circumstances, e.g. if a weapon is pointed at you or someone else. The guards don't have to wait to get shot at before firing.

I just hope it doesn't make things worse (more criminals carry more guns to protect themselves from the Gardai and so on)

We're talking about armed robbers here, they're already carrying guns.

Repli

Also, the gardai that are armed in this country have gone through weapons training, these gun toting scumbag raiders did not. When they are exchanging fire, the raiders are more likely to harm an innocent person.

Nietzschean

civdef wrote:

JThe guards don't have to wait to get shot at before firing.

I imagine the gardai being trained how to use rifles and what not, if they fired first there would be no firefight....

Larianne

Even though Lusk is a small village (turning into a town with all the houses!) at this time of day there would have a lot of people about, especially parents bringing kids to school/nursery. What effect would that have on a child seeing all of that??

These guys were known to the gardai, the lead guy who died is meant to be one of the most notorious armed robbers from Ireland. These guys had loaded weapons and used them! These weren't little muppets with toy guns. This is how they make there living - robbing people and scaring the life out of innocent people going about their daily business.

If you had a father like that, would you really want to know him? Better off dead. I know it's harsh but what's the alternative? If sent to prison, sure it would be a holiday for them and they just recruit more young ones for there gang and learn new tricks!!

zardette

I susport the gardi in what happened, but I suspect there will be legal trouble over this.

Since the gardi KNEW that there were armed raiders going to rob the place, and 'lay in wait', rather than arresting them elsewhere before shots were fired, they will probably be accused of using unnesesary force.

The bleeding heart liberals and lefties will say that they should have been taken in gently, and rehabilited, at great cost to the state, and a waste of time if you ask me, (unless you are a prison officer I suppose)

Look at what happens if a rural farmer blows away an intruder with a shotgun, and that's when it's not premeditated!

Zardor
(on Zardette's account!)

hawkmoon269

This is a turn up for the books.

Rejoice in the good news folks.

HelterSkelter

Repli wrote:

That's ridiculous. The man doing the armed raid was ARMED.. he was firing shots at gardai in a public place.. If a stray bullet fired by him killed one of your friends or family, you would think differently.. what were they supposed to do? Threaten him with a baton? They had no choice but to shoot him

I was having a go at the Guards poor record of convicting any of these criminals.

HelterSkelter

Larianne wrote:

If you had a father like that, would you really want to know him? Better off dead.

What? You're saying if your dad was a bank robber you would want him dead???

civdef

I was having a go at the Guards poor record of convicting any of these criminals.

Quick update on criminal law - the Guards don't convict people. They investigate, arrest and charge (for minor offences in the District court they proscute as well). The DPP prosecutes, and the courts convict or acquit. Irish crime clear-up rates are better then most places, btw.

Garibaldi

The Gardai have to, at the very least, announce their presence to the scumbags, so the scummers have the chance to avail of free legal aid and these jolly day trips from open prisons which the tax payer is funding.
As far as crims being shot dead goes, it's the old adage of live by the sword (or sawnoff), die by the sword. They obviously felt that the potential gains outweighed the risks, and were willing to put lives (their own included) on the line.

I second that. Could well be a boards.ie user's father that was killed. Sickening

It could've been the Pope's father that was killed. What difference does that make? Do you think the Gardai are cold blooded murderers?? The evidence speaks for itself. The scummers got what they deserved. The fact that three of the five were arrested is testament to the control exercised by the Gardai at the scene. Would such restraint have been exercised by a criminal gang, in such a life-threatening situation, if the roles were reversed? I somehow doubt it.

ballooba

seamus wrote:

It's about time they got tough on it.

As someone said a few weeks back on Primetime (the one about gun crime) - The Gardai raid houses and make massive drug seizures, and then a day or two later you'll see a bank raid or a post office raid to try and pay back the cost of those seized drugs.

And haven't the Gardai made some big drug seizures recently? It's a vicious circle until you decide to remove the cause of the circle.

Which cause?

That people decide to go into the most highly profitable business in the world?

Larianne

HelterSkelter wrote:

What? You're saying if your dad was a bank robber you would want him dead???

My dad would never do something like that and my family also wouldn't allow for him to do it. To know my father was going around threatening, even killing people, yeah I probably would want him dead. It would stop a lot of suffering. I'd imagine to have someone involved in a gang as terrifying and exhausting. You'd never stop worrying about them, wondering if they'd been killed or killed someone else, get sent to prison, drugs/money/stolen goods brought to the house. And then there's the scum that he would be hanging around with. And then there's the fear of your own life. Being in a gang normally means there is another gang to compete with!! Better off Dead!!!

bohsboy

This news has made my day

You go to a post office with a shotgun you have to accept the consequences. Absolute dirt, who are a scourge on ordinary decent people. Hopefully this might send a lesson out to other wannabe's.

A great day.

Garibaldi

What? You're saying if your dad was a bank robber you would want him dead???

If your dad was an armed (and willing to use those arms) bank robber, you'd probably be his apprentice. That question is ridiculous when posed to someone whose father is not.

seamus

ballooba wrote:

Which cause?

That people decide to go into the most highly profitable business in the world?

That's the one. Junkies don't rob post offices and banks to pay off their debts.

Scruff

zardette wrote:

I susport the gardi in what happened, but I suspect there will be legal trouble over this.

Since the gardi KNEW that there were armed raiders going to rob the place, and 'lay in wait', rather than arresting them elsewhere before shots were fired, they will probably be accused of using unnesesary force.

The bleeding heart liberals and lefties will say that they should have been taken in gently, and rehabilited, at great cost to the state, and a waste of time if you ask me, (unless you are a prison officer I suppose)
Zardor
(on Zardette's account!)

yeah i agree. I think the gardai needed to catch them in the act and arrest them. Criminal Gangs have been getting away with to much armed robbery of banks, post offices, money in transit etc. These have all been seen as easy pickings recently, hopefully this will send a clear message to the criminals that this is no longer the case.
I'm actually between 2 minds as to whether it would have been better if they could have been arrested and prosecuted. Yes it would have meant no loss of life but they'd be out in 5 years if convicted, ready to do it again.
The fact that they were even shot, let alone killed by the gardai does put out a stronger message that the gardai are getting tough. The criminals lived by the sword etc. i wont lose any sleep over it. in fact i think people will sleep better because of it.

flogen

I know they were armed and the gardai probably shot in response, but I'm afraid of the precident it may set.
What about scumbags who don't carry weapons? Or scumbags doing smaller jobs? If they see a precident being set where the Gardai are willing to shoot to kill (rightly so, but not in their eyes), they may be more inclinded to carry a weapon, and use it with more ease (them or me situation). I find it hard to believe that anyone who is inclinded to have a gun already owns one

Repli

What about scumbags who don't carry weapons? Or scumbags doing smaller jobs?

It could deter them from carrying out future crimes, knowing they may be killed in the process even if they are armed

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

sure does in the states anyway.

flogen

Repli wrote:

It could deter them from carrying out future crimes, knowing they may be killed in the process even if they are armed

I suppose that's another way to look at it.
If I assume the mentality of a gang member correctly, they don't see the Gardai as their law enforcers, they see them as rivals, almost like another gang to deal with (but one with a lot of clout and not one you challenge lightly).
If one gang starts to get more violent and start to use more force and firearms, the others must respond or face extintion. There will always be gangs in Ireland and the world, and while a crack down helps to cut their numbers, it may make the remainder more dangerous than ever. If gangs feel that they need to get more guns and shoot more people to keep power, they will.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

the goverment could just decriminalise certain drugs and remove a very large part of the gangs funding..

seamus

Mordeth wrote:

sure does in the states anyway.

You can't really compare the States to here. As flogen points out, there will always be criminals, and yes, if the law enforcers are better armed the criminals will just arm themselves better to deal with it.

However, high-powered automatic weapons and body armour aren't remotely as easy/cheap to get your hands on here as in the States.

I certainly wouldn't be crazy about all Garda being armed as a deterrent for crime (it'll just makes criminals more desparate and violent), but certainly days like today send out a clear message to the drug dealers/IRA gangs operating in the South.

DeVore

Guy decides someone may die during his theft. Gardai decide who. Simple.

DeV.

bk

flogen wrote:

What about scumbags who don't carry weapons? Or scumbags doing smaller jobs? If they see a precident being set where the Gardai are willing to shoot to kill (rightly so, but not in their eyes), they may be more inclinded to carry a weapon, and use it with more ease (them or me situation).

There are two types of criminals.

1) Junkies, who rob post offices to get money for their next hit. Generally speaking they can't afford to purchase (illegaly) a gun anyway, so this won't make any difference.

2) Professional robbers, these guys are almost always armed. It it the tool of their trade.

So this won't make any difference either way. If anything it may make a positive effect. Professional criminals will now know that the Gardai are getting tough, and while they will probably continue to be armed, they may be more likely to surrender if confronted by the Gardai in future. Better to surrender and spend a comfortable 10 years in prison with all your buddies then dead.

vibe666

you can't take a gun and rob somewhere and not expect the poeple who's job it is to stop you to turn up with nothing more than strong words.

if they were unarmed and resisted arrest then they would have gotten an equal amount of force used against them to apprehend them.

fact is they used guns to try and do their crime, and used them to resist arrest by firing on the people who's job it is to stop them.

equal force was used to prevent them doing any more harm (better them than some granny collecting her pension) and arrest them

job done as far as I'm concerned.

if you don't want to get shot while you rob a post office then don't fecking do it. get a job ffs like the rest of us!

HelterSkelter

civdef wrote:

Quick update on criminal law - the Guards don't convict people. They investigate, arrest and charge (for minor offences in the District court they proscute as well). The DPP prosecutes, and the courts convict or acquit. Irish crime clear-up rates are better then most places, btw.

Oh don't be suck a smart arse, you know exactly what I mean.

What's all this craic about detection rates being down 7% then? http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0525/crime.html.

Every day I read about post office/bank raids in the paper but I never read any stories about anyone being caught.

flogen

HelterSkelter, please read the charter regarding personal abuse.

bk, do you honestly believe that prolifiration of guns has reached its peak? While this will send a message to criminals abotu the Gardai, it may be the wrong one. They may take this as a push to get tougher, get better weapons and get better trained. Any professional bank/PO robber who goes out without a loaded weapons would be (more of) a fool after this. I don't see any professional criminals jeprodise their livelyhood because of 2 deaths.

ballooba

seamus wrote:

That's the one. Junkies don't rob post offices and banks to pay off their debts.

Well for starters junkies wouldn't be up early enough to rob a post office.

Secondly, they wouldn't have the where with all to hold a gun never mind threaten someone with one.

Are you suggesting for a second that any of the recent high scale robberies could have been pulled off by anyone off their head on heroin? Not all drug dealers are junkies.

ballooba

bk wrote:

2) Professional robbers, these guys are almost always armed. It it the tool of their trade.

Just to clarify, this is what I meant. This is a highly lucrative business to be in at the moment. The thiefs have spotted a high risk / high profit niche and are targetting it successfully. It's a business, an illegal business, but a business all the same.

Don't mean to be off topic but i saw a dutch Brinks van working the BOI on Camden St yesterday. Are they trying these out for ireland or what? Looked like some beast of a machine but the driver looked pretty exposed with big clear glass windows so everyone can see who he is or shoot at him.

Eoin

Quick update on criminal law - the Guards don't convict people. They investigate, arrest and charge (for minor offences in the District court they proscute as well). The DPP prosecutes, and the courts convict or acquit. Irish crime clear-up rates are better then most places, btw.

HelterSkelter wrote:

Oh don't be suck a smart arse, you know exactly what I mean.
....
Every day I read about post office/bank raids in the paper but I never read any stories about anyone being caught.

I think it was a valid distinction to make, and not deserving of insulting comments.

I think the Gardai seem to be making pretty good progress in breaking up some of the major criminal gangs. IMO, the problems they face is that they do not receive the resourcing / finance, training or public support that they should get.

Whoever brought up the Judge Curtin thing: that was apparently not a simple case of the warrant expiring - if it had been, then it would have never have gone to court in the first place. From what I have heard, it was actually a legal precedent, and not as clear cut as people thought. This was ONE case in a huge number of arrests where they did a super job.

WRT to this case, it seems to be a case of them or the crims who got shot. An easy decision for me anyway, so it could have been someones father - if the robbery had gone ahead, it could have been someones parent / partner / child / whoever who was shot by these scumbags. They took the gamble, and they lucked out. Boo-fcuking-hoo.