Push-ups

Ajnag

Hi,
I started doing push-ups last december. Initally I started with 5 once a day morning and night and then built up to twenty(cant seem to get up to 25). Then I read here that you should give the museles a chance to grow and recover. Since Ive changed to 20 slow push up's then some ab crunchs before ending with another 20 fast push ups. Im just wondering is this the best way to go about it and what you might reccomend.

Also Im a bit worryed about the ab-crunchs as I dont wanna fec up my back, any advise there would be appreciated too.

pwd

there's plenty of threads on this forum about abs exercises if you search
You would get more benefit from doing a normal speed set of push ups instead of the slow set.
You should avoid doing resistance exercise with the same muscles two days in a row.

Dublin7

Did you see any improvement ?
Do you think push ups are useful to do ?
Cheers !

joc_06

It all really depends on your goal. If you want explosive power then id do clap pushups or depth pushups. If you want strength but not the ability to apply it quickly then do slow pushups.
In general strength athletes aim for low reps high weight. Bodybuilders aim for higher reps.
Personally id work it like this (Well actually id do bench press instead but thats your call)
1 day of clap pushups, 1 day of slowish pusups, 1 day of weighted pushups. all in 1 week with rest days in between.
Id rarely go over 15 reps for anyexercise bar a 50 rep squat but certainly for abs 20 is the absolute most id do.
I always do decline weighted situps.

You really need a proper exercise program though where you exercise all the muscle groups otherwise you will get injured. Do you do back? Legs? arms? If i was you id get access to a gym and try doing a full program there.

pwd

joc_06 wrote:

It all really depends on your goal. If you want explosive power then id do clap pushups or depth pushups. If you want strength but not the ability to apply it quickly then do slow pushups.
In general strength athletes aim for low reps high weight. Bodybuilders aim for higher reps.
Personally id work it like this (Well actually id do bench press instead but thats your call)
1 day of clap pushups, 1 day of slowish pusups, 1 day of weighted pushups. all in 1 week with rest days in between.
Id rarely go over 15 reps for anyexercise bar a 50 rep squat but certainly for abs 20 is the absolute most id do.
I always do decline weighted situps.

You really need a proper exercise program though where you exercise all the muscle groups otherwise you will get injured. Do you do back? Legs? arms? If i was you id get access to a gym and try doing a full program there.

there are studies showing that doing resistance exercises slowly is less effective than regular speed or quick movement. One of the reasons is, like you say, you don't develop the abillity to move with strength at any speed.

Hester

pwd wrote:

there are studies showing that doing resistance exercises slowly is less effective than regular speed or quick movement. One of the reasons is, like you say, you don't develop the abillity to move with strength at any speed.

That's interesting! I thought that doing resistance exercises slowly was more effective. I'll have to speed up so!

joc_06

Hester wrote:

That's interesting! I thought that doing resistance exercises slowly was more effective. I'll have to speed up so!

No this isnt exactly correct. what you need is variation. have a day of max effort, another day of max reps using a suitable % of your 1rep max and another speed day.

obviously this all depending on your goals. if you want to be strong but slow do it slow all the time etc.
Try looking up the westside training program by louis simmons. you may not be able to do the exercises but the theory is all there.
In general though if you want to be slow, train slowly and vice versa

Ajnag

Did you see any improvement ?
Do you think push ups are useful to do ?
Cheers !

Theyve been pretty good in that they seem to have built musele on my arms sholders and pecs. Best Improvement has been on the forearms tho.

Do you do back? Legs? arms? If i was you id get access to a gym and try doing a full program there.

Not really, I try and cycle as much as possible for the legs, and the ab crunchs are to try and take care of the belly, but the reason I chose this way is that at the start all it required was a few minute's in the morning and evening without having to go to any extra lenths or hassle. Ideally Id just like to be able to do some work without the need for extra equipment, cost or time. If you have any suggestions for improving back strenth, theyd be apprieciated.

I see what your saying about quick and slow rep's but do's anyone know the effects of fast and slow in the same session as I outlined above?

dawballz

joc_06 wrote:

In general strength athletes aim for low reps high weight. Bodybuilders aim for higher reps.

That's bull. If you want definition, go for high reps with lower rate. You'll have to have some muscle first and so, you'll have to go with high weight, low reps first - to bulk up a small bit. But take it handy, go for maybe between 4-8 reps per set, push yourself, but know your limits.

Also, for your abs, there is a layer of fat in front of the abs(unless you are fairly skinny) that is difficult to get rid of(to show your abs).
Weighted( and preferably declined) situps will bring out your abs, but only cardio will get rid of that layer of fat.


I could go on about the abs, but I will stop.

joc_06

Im sorry daballz but you are wrong.
http://www.defrancostraining.com/articles/archive/articles_muscle-equal.htm

What i said was 100% correct. Bbuilders train in 8-12 rep range.
Strength athletes train under5 rep range (Obviously not exclusively depending on their goals)
Doing high reps adds effectively useless muscle relatively speaking. BBers have the most muscle mass of any class of ppl in the world yet they arent the strongest nor the fastest.
I dont understand what you meant about definition tbh.

reigninblood

Joc what you are saying is right but you are making it sound a bit too much like there are only 2 ways to train. Bodybuilders don't aim for higher reps all the time but they vary their training alot more than strenght athletes. A bodybuilder needs to build up a base of bulk that they can cut into a more defines mass. As the austrian oak says "You need to get a massive rock before you can carve an impressive statue". You are right to say strength athletes concentrate on low reps/high weight.

Ajnag you need to keep your muscles guessing. Joc's plan of varying your push up routine is a good example of this. If you stop making gains or feeling spent after you workout it means your muscles have adapted to it and you aren't stimulating them to grow. An example of this is just like you said you top out at 20 push ups but your aren't making any gains. Put some weights on your back in a rucksack or raise your feet on a chair and I guarantee you will get results and get that stiff feeling in your muscles that I'm sure you got at the start. You didn't say but I'll bet that feeling is gone as well.

Prior Of Taize

low reps high weight build bulk muscle known as hypertrophy. less weight with more reps build stamina muscle for endurance...body builders use more weight with less reps to build big (and stupid) muscle.

joc_06

im not sure why you ressurected this thread but you were almost correct until the last statement which is the exact opposite IN GENERAL. Any training regime must vary to succeed but in general BBers aim for lower weights at higher reps. Strength athletes like sprinter use max weights at lower reps. Again all a general saying so not too reliable

Prior Of Taize

low weight high rep causes your muscles to work for a lot longer and so you develop lean and durale muscle.

high weight low reps cause most of your muscle to break down and rebuild rapidly causing a fairly major size increase and adds a solid amount of power (ability to lift large amounts of weight for short periods of time)

so if you wanted to train for running (not 100m sprinting obvioudly) then you would "rep out" your legs with low weight high reps and if you wanted to power lift and look huge then yhou would do fast reps with high weight with a small number of repetitions per set to build bulk muscle.......

my 2 cents

joc_06

Prior Of Taize wrote:

low weight high rep causes your muscles to work for a lot longer and so you develop lean and durale muscle.

high weight low reps cause most of your muscle to break down and rebuild rapidly causing a fairly major size increase and adds a solid amount of power (ability to lift large amounts of weight for short periods of time)

my 2 cents

Totally incorrect and another gym myth

joejoem

This is the most unhelpful thread I have ever seen in this forum

Flex

My idea of muscle building was that a muscle could either get bigger; get smaller; or stay the same size. Doing higher or lower rep ranges would stimulate different fibres in the muscle, but in general the idea that low reps with heavy weights would make you look like a bulky blob or somethin; and high rep ranges make you lean and defined, is non sense. Higher rep ranges dont define your muscles, lower bodyfat levels give your muscles definition or allow your muscle to show through more clearly, which is very dependant on a good diet and cardio. I find 7-10 reps is the best rep range iv ever used for any exercise for growth and strenght. Besides diet is just as important, if not more important, than the weight lifting component of bodybuilding imo.

Maybe im off the mark, but thats what iv always thought

joc_06

joejoem wrote:

This is the most unhelpful thread I have ever seen in this forum

Well the truth is that any exercise you should do depends on your goals, what level you are at and, age, sex, previous injuries, type of muscle, diet, allergies, time availale to train etc etc etc.

So basically unless you have a very specific question and give all of the above info then even the best coaches in the world cant answer. in fact the best coaches rarely give advice unless they can train with an athlete and even more important massage an athlete.

If you want info on the how muscle growth differs in rep ranges then look here. there are 2 types of hypertrophy you know:
http://defrancotraining.com/articles/archive/articles_muscle-equal.htm

no more general q's for me

Flex

Great article joc 06. Thanks

Fudd

probably said already but here goes.

Slow ****e gets you big angry lookin' muscles but if you want to have agility go for speed. works for everything. So if you're into heavy lifting , climbing and crushing things (fopr some reason) go for slowness with a few reps. If you want to punch , throw, martial arts type things then go for lots of quick reps.

Orionetheus

I do pushups OR bicep curls both work your biceps quite nicely. I can now do 40 pushups without stopping full proper ones and I weigh 190...not bad..

Work your way up....im at 25 lbs in each arm.

As for the ab crunches......they dont damage your back nearly as much as situps....

Boru.

Hi,

First of I won't go into the rep range x gives y results debate, but I will tell you about my personal experience of push ups and why I love them. I'm a fitness instructor, but I try to learn new techniques everyday and am in no small way obsessed with body weight work and functional fitness.

One day I got up and said something very silly to the effect of "Hmmm....they said Batman could do 1000 pushups...they said the Great Gama could 1000 pushups...I wonder...nah...no...maybe...I could do 1000 pushups...?

I set myself the goal of doing 1000 pushups a day within 30 days. I started being able to do 30 standard in a row. I am now up to 250. I am confident that on on August 6th I'll do a thousand. (Granted maybe not all at once...probably more spaced out in two sets).

The chest development has been incredible! I've put inches of lean muscle on my chest. After a few days I had to buy new shirts. My arms, in partiular my shoulders have achieved astounding development (my shoulders achieved muscle seperation for the first time). My posture has improved dramatically, as has my back muscle definition. I have dropped a load of surplus fat tissue and have reduced my body fat by 3%. My fiance says she loves me more.

Pushups are one of the greatest exercises in the world. Furthermore I do a variety of over 20 differenet variations hitting every possible angle for development. I also do this to veary the intensity and resluts of specific areas..but I said I wouldn't talk about that.

Bottom line. Do pushups, they're really really really awesome. They give you a killer workout!

Hope this helps.

Boru.

Ajnag

Just to say thanks for all the reply's, I just spent the last few weeks using weights and am about to return to the push ups for a few weeks. Am now up to 25, probably with reserve for more. Have yet to test.

Good luck Boru, let us know how you get on.

I still gotta wonder tho, are sets better or doing as many as possible in a row. But I guess thats what all the debate was about.

Cravez

What i also do sometimes is i get a bag of some sort like a school bag or something similar. Put a towel at the bottom of the bag and then put weight discs into the bag, the towel will prevent the discs digging into your lower back. Slowly postion yourself into the push-up position and fly away at them. Obviously dont put to much weight that you can handle or you will hurt your back or cause strain, this would obivously help in push-ups. Your push-up challenge sounds good boru, i must give it a go myself

joc_06

Boru, that brought a tear to my eye. so romantic ;-))
Imagine what size you'd be if you dedicated yourself to proper training on the bench as you have done to the pushup. And as for larger clothes in a few days, im dubious

As i've said before a pushup is a good supplementary exercise but it will never ever ever take the place of a bench press and its variants in any athlete's training program.

There is a reason why EVERY world class athlete on this planet does the big 3, squat bench and deadlift and thats because they activate the most muscle groups and motor units than any other exercise (bar the Olympic lifts)

Functional strength was mentioned. This is an extremely grey area. How exactly is a pushup more functional than abenchpress? Truth is none of them are, but thats not the aim of strength training unless of course your sport is pushups! the aim is to get stronger, increase the strength of tendons and muscles to allow you to hit and be hit and apply lots of force very quickly to whatever.

Wobble boards and gyms balls have a place but the big 3 and OL Lifts will always always always have pride of place in the weight rooms of the best athletes in the world. why people try to overcomplicate things baffles me. Those exercises have been proven time after time after time to recruit the most fast twitch muscle's, stimulate the most muscle groups and basically give you the most bang for your buck in the weight room. this isnt my opinion solely. every coach bar the new HIT coaches believe this but those guys havent a clue

OFDM

Boru. wrote:

Bottom line. Do pushups, they're really really really awesome. They give you a killer workout!

Do you have rest days you would with standard weightlifting or do you do them every day?

And how did you increment them/spread them out over a day?

Boru.

And...I'm back. Hello.

Right...where to start...first eh..thank you all for the kind words, I'll let you know how it goes.

joc_06 I admit I am a bit of a romantic The point wasn't to develop size it was strength and development of the muscles of the chest and shoulder withing everyrange of concevable movement. As it stand my current personal best on a bench press is 338 lbs. Now just to clarify that was in my strongest range and not full range of motion. Full range its 233 lbs. I am a fitness instructor, but unlike many I actually spend most of my time training myself. In that pursuit I ahev utilised evey from of training at some stage or another. I have lifted light weights, I've lifted heavy weights, and I can tell you form experience that a training regieme consistning soley from pushups in thier many variety produces strength in the muscles you cannot develop in any other manner.

Furthermore I defy those who regulary train with weights to reproduce the movements and muscle control those who train utilising their own bodies can do. It doesn't work. This happens time and agian in the world, put some who trains with weights in a yoga or pilates class and see what happens. Generally they have a hard time. The reason for this is becasue they are training for strenght (unless training for apperance) in the psecific range of motion the use in lifting a weight and do not have strenght in the variety of those studying bodyweeigth techniques do.

Now reverse the example, take someone who just does body weigt work and ask them to do a free or machine based weight lifitn exercise. They will be able to do it. No problem. They have strength in that specific motion as well as everywhere else. Now granted tyhey may not bale to lift as much. Then agian I've seen instances where they can lift more.

Does this mean bodyweight exercise is better tahn weight lifting, for me yeah. For you maybe not. But we don't ahve the sdame goals. I want to master my body and be strong from every conceivable angle and position, I want to be flexable, and I want to be supple as like a jungle lion (was that romantic ?)

How is this functional? Well in a bench press, I develop strength soley in the motion of the bench press. It is specific, that's the point. With a push up I can instantly alter the weight ditribution, the balance, the focus of the mucles being used, the direction of the force, pretty much anything. I have seen people with incredible physique's who bench press massive anounts of weight and have perfectly sculpted physiques, and they can not lift their own bodyweight. As a result they get injured. I want to function as a human being better, I do not want to be injured, so I lift my own bodyweight and keep myself from being injured.

Secondly the exercises themselves are always functional in the sense that i do not need additional equipment to do them. I need my body that's it. No weight's, no benches, no rack. Nothing just me. You say you are baffled by how people over cmplicate matters? Dude you'r using more stuff than me! I use nothing except myself, you are introducing a whole host of accessories that you don't need.

And finally, lifting heavy weights doesn't "recruit the most fast twitch muscle's, stimulate the most muscle groups" that would be isometrics, and again you don't need anything for it.

Briefly here are my reasons;

1. Requires no equipment
2. Its not cheap - its free! (versus weight lifitng equipment / gym membership).
3. Can be adjusted to provide strength in every conceivable range of motion.
4. Makes me look really hot.
5. Completely portable.
6. Can be done anythime any place
7. Porduces any reults necessary
8. Exceptionally quick and efficent - some techniuqes can be done in seconds.
9. Simultaneoulsy improves aerobic fitness
10. Improves flexability.
11. Prevents injury.


Now after all that I'm not saying don't lift weights if you want to. Yo can go right ahead. (and when you've blown your rotator cuff I'll treat you and fix it. ). As you say above bodyweight can be used as a suppliementary exercise only.

However you can use bodyweight exercise as a complete workout system.

But you are right, they will never take the place of weight lifting for the exact same reason the large majority of gym instructors are useless.



Finally OFDM my apologies for taking so long to get to you. You can do anything you like. I don't mind, you're not ppaying me to train you.
I currently work everyday. I do vary the amount. For instance on Monday I'll do 500, Tuesday 350, Wednesday 250 Thursady 150, friday 100, saturday 1000 I hope.

If you need more let me know at info@borufitness.com

Boru.
info@borufitness.com

joc_06

i dont have time to go through all that but mate you are severly misguided.
You have absolutely no proof of anything and in a lot cases you are wrong. like isometrics and whats the story with strongest range for a Bench? is this like down for an inch then up again? as for the rotator cuff thing, thats crazy!! that can happen doing pushups just as easily. and who says ppl who train with weights arent flexible?? are you saying Mo greene isnt flexible? some crazy stuff...
you just make no sense

Believe what you want to believe but if anyone wants to be the fastest, strongest most powerful person they can be then i think they'll use other means.

poobum

joc_06 wrote:

i dont have time to go through all that but mate you are severly misguided.
You have absolutely no proof of anything and in a lot cases you are wrong. like isometrics and whats the story with strongest range for a Bench? is this like down for an inch then up again? as for the rotator cuff thing, thats crazy!! that can happen doing pushups just as easily. and who says ppl who train with weights arent flexible?? are you saying Mo greene isnt flexible? some crazy stuff...
you just make no sense

Believe what you want to believe but if anyone wants to be the fastest, strongest most powerful person they can be then i think they'll use other means.

good point about the flexability! i do a lot of weights and im hyper extensive(means i can stretch ways and further then i should be able to in certain muscles i think its genetic or something because i no no one else who can do it! but still) and just because you are doing weights dosent mean you cant stretch!

poobum

also bear in mind you are talking about guys serious into weights arent you? well look at some of the strongest men in the world the can barely do pull ups at all yet a guy half their strength and size might be able to do ten times what they can do! that dosent make him stronger!

joc_06

Im not sure who you are talking about poobum. Powerlifters or who?
What is your point? I dont really follow it.
Those guys (powerlifters) are genetic freaks with all the correct levers and muscle length and fast twitch muscle by the bucketfull that allow them to push and pull huge weights. These guys would need little training to excel and often times bad training regimes would still see good gains for these guys (this is my main gripe with lots and lots of coaches, they get one freak and take a hypothesis from him, the rest suffers). So if this type of training is not good enough for them, then how is it good for the average joe who would need the best of everything to see mediocre gains?

My final word here is gym balls are fine for a bit of core work after your main workout is over but they are not a workout in themselves. Do them as a supplementary exercise to whatever exercise best helps you achieve your goal. If its speed and strength and power (which im reckon is 99% of sportspeoples goals from soccer to gaa to track and field) the those exercises will be squat bench deadlift and the OL's

poobum

my point about the flexability is that just because guys do weights dosent mean they arent flexable!
my second point(althought not very well phrased ill admit) was that weights are needed dependign on what you want to achieve! boru talked about how he can do all these range of movements and lift all that weight etc..how it was much cheaper and all that but depending on what you want to achieve this may not be enough! if you want to be a a powerlifter or something the you would have to do weights themselves(or some sort of heavy objects) not just your own bodyweight!(hope if phrased it better this time)

Dutchboy

Going back to the pushups, I used to do about 250 a day during college and it gave me much the same effect as Boru describes, maybe a little less than that....
Some of the techniques i try include to improve Reps:

Pyramid training =
it basically is sets from number 1 to 15. 12, 123, 1234, 12345 , You get the idea! Take a set break after each set, 20 secs at least for the first one, You may think its easy at first, but you will need the rests for later! reduce the rest by 1 sec for each set

Negatives=
Dunno if im using that term wrong but here goes....
Just pause for 2 seconds halfway through the lowering phase and pause for 2secs at the bottom and then again for 2 secs halfway up again. don't take a rest at the top by locking out your arms, go straight down again....

Chair pushups=
Use two chairs to raise your height from the floor and do really deep pushups! These will burn! Be careful or dont do if you have any shoulder issues though as it can be stressful on the shoulder joint....

Diamond Pushups=
Put your hands together and make the shape of a diamond and away you go!
Will fry your triceps and works the pecs differently to normal pushups so might shock them into action again!

Wide, clapping, Hindu, dive-bomber, pushup holds, pushups on your fists, fingertip pushups,Reverse pushups(on your back) the possibilities are endless! Good luck!

Oh, and it may be advisable to do some bridging front and sides to strenghten your core which prevent your torso tiring and dropping before your upper body does!
Google any questions you have and you'll have your answer!

Boru.

Hi all,

Right, deadline was to do 1000 pushups by Aug 6th. Made it to 737 and could not continue. My left pec was badly strained and would not support my bodyweight. I completed the 1000 later on in the day, by heavily modifying them, a mixture of a couple (literally just 2!) bad one arm pushups and the rest were box pushups, heavily leaning on my right hand side. the form was very poor so I wont count them as part of the workout. It was however pyschologically important for me to succed in doing 1000, hence my continuing with such poor crap. I will try again after suiable recovery. I plan to do 1000 one day per month, every other day will be a standard bodyweight and isometric workout.

Have fun everyone. Here's to silly goals!

Boru.

joejoem

Congrats

Ajnag

Nice goin boru, Its amazing to see even someone who can do a 1000 pushups can only do 2 one arm push ups, Ill be all the more chuffed when I can manage one :eek:

Boru.

Jesus I'm so soar its not funny. I can do 25 one arm pushups when I'm not tired, but after 700 + pushups It looks less like a pushup and more like a dead fish flopping on the floor.

Boru.

joc_06

http://www.recordholders.org/en/list/pushups.html

#good link here. read the first article about the guy who broke his neck. its good

Beekay

Is there any where on the net that gives a guide to all the different kinds of push ups?
Or is someone willing to explain them all.



Thanks

Boru.

Hey joc_06,

Great link. Many thanks.That first story is incredible. Ties in with the other thread on motivation. For me it's stories like that. That proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that we can all do better.

Boru.