Satnav in Ireland

AlanD

Does satellite navigation work in Ireland at all? Is every housing estate, main road, motorway, back road, boreen and land mark on Irish navigation systems?

Does it depend on what car you buy? So if you buy a Mercedes/BMW with satnav, would it be better or worse than a Volvo with satnav or even a Peugeot?

Alun

AlanD wrote:

Does satellite navigation work in Ireland at all?

Of course.

Is every housing estate, main road, motorway, back road, boreen and land mark on Irish navigation systems?

Not by any means, although it's being worked on [see below].

Does it depend on what car you buy? So if you buy a Mercedes/BMW with satnav, would it be better or worse than a Volvo with satnav or even a Peugeot?

I've no experience of car specific satnav systems, only PDA based ones, but the key is who provides the base map data. TeleAtlas and Navteq are the two big players in the PDA market, and (I believe) Navteq pretty much have the car manufacturers tied up. Current Navteq data is the best of the two, and they're currently working on a complete re-survey of the whole island, but a) it's not ready yet, and b) even when it is, it will take a while before the base data is adopted by the satnav system makers and finds it's way into a product, or in the case of most car satnav systems, onto a DVD.

I can't comment on the quality of the systems themselves. In any case, you can be sure that BMW, Volvo etc. don't make them themselves but they'll be made by some 3rd party.

Also, bear in mind that in most cases you'll have to pay for updated maps when and if they appear.

unkel

AlanD wrote:

Does satellite navigation work in Ireland at all?

Yes

AlanD wrote:

Is every housing estate, main road, motorway, back road, boreen and land mark on Irish navigation systems?

No. Mapping in Ireland is very poor, let alone digital mapping. The main reason for the third world level mapping is that Ireland has never been in NATO

My estate is 6 years old and it is not on any map :rolleyes:

Alun

unkel wrote:

No. Mapping in Ireland is very poor, let alone digital mapping. The main reason for the third world level mapping is that Ireland has never been in NATO

Companies like Navteq, when they either can't fall back on data provided by third parties, or it's too damn expensive, just go out and do it themselves. They currently have a team of people cruising the country in cars equipped with GPS systems and laptops mapping the entire country from scratch, in fact I saw one of them a year or so ago cruising around our estate and went out to chat with them:) But, like I said, it can take 6 months to a year before that data actually ends up in a commercial product.

Seth Brundle

unkel wrote:

My estate is 6 years old and it is not on any map :rolleyes:

Its on the latest OS road atlas of Dublin

edit:- my in-laws used to live in the same estate and now live around the corner - Im not stalking you!
[Im stalking them]

kevmac

Make sure that any GPS system has NavTeq Irish maps.

I ditched my Navman 630 because they switched to TeleAtlas maps which were a step back in terms of coverage.

TeleAtlas tend to map areas with large populations while Navteq map a whole country regardless of people coverage.

I now use a Pocket PC with CoPilot 5 with Navteq maps; the coverage for Ireland is impressive just back from Ennis and went through east Clare and all the B roads are mapped.

The Monesterevin bypass is not there because CoPilot are using April 2004 maps - it takes 12 to 18 months for maps to be updated for each SatNav system so SatNav X might get the latest Irish maps in May 2005 but SatNav Y might not get the same maps until December 2005.

I am getting a new car with SatNav and after much searching on the net have found out that it is a Kenwood 3200 with maps from December 2004 - the only thing is that I am not sure who supplies the maps yet.

The reason that built-in car SatNav has been slow to take off in Ireland is that most dealers in Ireland haven't a clue about it and don't realise that you have to sell yearly updates for the maps - and then the average punter is aghast that he has to shell out €300 for new maps.


Best GPS site here http://www.pocketgps.co.uk/index.php the forums are especially good.

CoPilot 5 http://www.alk.eu.com/new/

http://www.navteq.com/

http://www.teleatlas.com/homepage.jsp

Unkel, no offence but you are talking rubbish; NATO has absolutelynothing to do with SatNav mapping.

What system are you using and when did you last update your maps?

My maps are very up to date with no part of Dublin, Waterford, Cork, Limerick, Galway, Sligo, Belfast, not fully mapped.

unkel

kbannon wrote:

Its on the latest OS road atlas of Dublin

Ah, last time I looked (in Easons about a month ago) it still wasn't. I'll have a look again - thanks for that

kevmac wrote:

Unkel, no offence but you are talking rubbish; NATO has absolutelynothing to do with SatNav mapping.

What system are you using and when did you last update your maps?

Sorry probably didn't make myself clear. I don't have satnav. Until nowish my estate wasn't even on the OS map. NATO countries have traditionally been mapped better (accurately / timely) for obvious reasons. It's good to hear private companies are now developing their own satnav maps over here. We'll just have to wait and see what quality they'll deliver...

My point is that to develop satnav mapping based on existing NATO highly accurate maps is just a tad easier than dudes driving around and doing it themselves from scratch

AlanD

That is interesting. It's good to hear that some companies are getting their maps up to date. I had heard before that sat nav in Ireland was limited to just primary routes and major towns.

The reason I was asking is that I am planning on going to the UK to buy a car and given that you can get very well spec'd cars over there for very decent money, I could try to find a car with satnav. I'm a bit of a gadget lover and would love to have a big screen with satnav in the car, but was thinking, what's the point if it's not useable.

Those links look good. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to have the discs for the car I'm looking to buy. I'm looking to get a Volvo S60 D5 and perhaps getting satnav with this car would be a waste if their discs are not good enough.

It's not that I can't find my way around, but like the gadget all the same. A PDA would be a better job of course since it's moveable.

Anyway, thanks!

kevmac

Where have you got the NATO information from?

NavTeq and TeleAtlas have been going for over fifteen years and are the only major SatNav digital map suppliers.

You don't have to wait and see; I am using Ireland maps which are excellent as of now.

kevmac

Volvo RTI DVD Navigation system uses Navteq AFAIK which you get stright from the dealer NOT from NavTeq.

Alun

kevmac wrote:

Volvo RTI DVD Navigation system uses Navteq AFAIK which you get stright from the dealer NOT from NavTeq.

Yes, it's important to remember that although Navteq provide the raw mapping and POI data in the form of a (huge) database, the Satnav system manufacturer still has to convert this data into their proprietary map format first. I don't know the exact ins and outs of this process, but apparently it's not as automatic as you might think, and requires a considerable amount of manual effort to get right.

Note though that you can, and should, report any map errors you discover directly to Navteq themselves rather than the Satnav manufacturer (who will refer you to them anyway if you try!)

kermit_ie

Garmin use Data Ireland as their base map supplier for Ireland. In Dublin, every nook and cranny is in it. Actually, it's more or less the same map that Microsoft use for Autoroute 2005. The main cities are on it, for the City Centres, and the main N roads. Then again, I was in Monaghan, on a little boreen heading for the border, and it was on it!

unkel

kevmac wrote:

You don't have to wait and see; I am using Ireland maps which are excellent as of now.

Let's do a little boards live test

I'll pm you my road (9 miles from Dublin city centre and the road has been there for 6 years) and you'll see if it is recognised by your satnav system

How's that?

As said, my road hasn't even been on OS maps until very recently as pointed out by kbannon

unkel

AlanD wrote:

The reason I was asking is that I am planning on going to the UK to buy a car and given that you can get very well spec'd cars over there for very decent money, I could try to find a car with satnav

I'd be interested for that very same reason

It'll be a couple of years from now for me by which time I hope the digital maps will be perfect

BigEejit

Dunno who tomtom use but I thought my new satnav when i got it (tomtom3 + pda + bluetooth gps) was broken when i first tried it .... problem was that I was in an estate that was not mapped and the map itself was zoomed right in so all i had was a arrow in a green field .... the estate was 20+ years old too ... even Cork's mapping was fairly basic ...

Its really very badly out of date in London, I'm just waiting on tomtom5 to come out without a bundled gps receiver and upgrade then

Alun

unkel wrote:

Let's do a little boards live test

I'll pm you my road (9 miles from Dublin city centre and the road has been there for 6 years) and you'll see if it is recognised by your satnav system

How's that?

As said, my road hasn't even been on OS maps until very recently as pointed out by kbannon

OK! I can send you a screenshot from the PDA as proof too (assuming it's on there, that is:) )

BrookieD

Hi
I use Co Pilot Live 5 on my XDAII and it is great, never had a problem and maps are up to date enough for for i use them for, even has my estate in Ashbourne which i was not sure it would have at all.

Defo Co Pilot has the best map data for Ireland.

kevmac

Tom Tom uses TeleAtlas.

PM me and I will try - I presume that the estate is already in an surrounding place that is mapped and not in rural area?

unkel

Alun wrote:

OK! I can send you a screenshot from the PDA as proof too (assuming it's on there, that is:) )

kevmac wrote:

Tom Tom uses TeleAtlas.

PM me and I will try - I presume that the estate is already in an surrounding place that is mapped and not in rural area?

PM sent to both! The main road that the estate entrance is on, IS on satnav

kermit_ie

unkel wrote:

PM sent to both! The main road that the estate entrance is on, IS on satnav

Send it to me to, i'll try it with the garmin.

Alun

PM sent back with (successful!) results from Navigon Mobile Navigator|4.

unkel

Alun wrote:

PM sent back with (successful!) results from Navigon Mobile Navigator|4.

PM received with positive result

kermit_ie wrote:

Send it to me to, i'll try it with the garmin.

PM sent!

It was only a few months ago the last time that I gave somebody my address and it wasn't picked up by satnav - dunno which system they were using, but it did recognise the main road

MercMad

I've used the factory Sat Nav in the Merc, last year and everything was NOT on it, yet a month or so after they released an update and I believe the areas I looked at are now there !

Last month I had a new Discovery 3 V6SE for a weekend with Factory Sat Nav and it was incredible ! Easy to use etc. and I tried many obscure places and theye were all there, with the exception of the spot I was in, a remote and extreme part of Wexford, Carne Beach, the Nav system said " Navigation will commence once you reach the main road" which it did !

Based on this I decided I needed Sat Nav so I bought an Ipaq and GPS reciever from eBay and now just need to buy the software ?

Which is best/cheapest etc.. ?

prospect

MercMad wrote:

I bought an Ipaq and GPS reciever from eBay

How much did you pay, out of interest?

kevmac

Yep that address is there; you're at the back of the estate and the road is numbered 1-20.

CoPilot is the best for Pocket Pc and the only one for Ireland as it uses NavTeq maps.

Review here
www.pocketgps.co.uk/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=10167

Can't seem to get the hyperlink to work.

Alun

kevmac wrote:

CoPilot is the best for Pocket Pc and the only one for Ireland as it uses NavTeq maps.

As does Navigon Mobile Navigator, Mapopolis, Destinator and possibly a few others I've not heard of ...

kevmac

Like all straight forward devices like Apple Macs to Sky+ it's all down to ergonomics and IMHO CoPilot beats everything else for sheer intuitive controls but it is a matter of taste.

DubTony

For those of you using a Palm handheld, viaMichelin have a fairly decent system.

Bought one just before Christmas. Most of Dublin is mapped in great detail and major centres, Navan, Wexford town, Cork, Limerick, Galway among others. The national routes are there too but smaller towns are just dots on the map.

Have found the sytem to be very useful although it helps to have a fairly good idea of where you're going. On a journey across the city it sometimes sends me all over the place. Have been unable to programme the software to take the shortest route. The British map is extremely comprehensive and won't fit on the average PDA so a card is required.

Tony

Renegade_Archer

GPSDrive is navigation software for Linux - relies on maps downloaded from the interweb. Used it on the laptop with a USB GPS to get me, the ex, and her Starlet from Munich to Ireland, worked perfectly(apart from the bastard tunnels in Paris blocking the GPS signal), there is a little perl script that comes with it that allows you to download maps for a whole country. There is also a version for handheld systems, so if youre running Linux on your Ipaq for instance you could use it there to.




Regards


Ewan

MercMad

Quote:
Originally Posted by MercMad
I bought an Ipaq and GPS reciever from eBay



How much did you pay, out of interest?

I paid €155 for the Ipaq (brand new) and €45 for the Reciever !

Winning Hand

Anyone in ireland do decent prices for pocket pc receiver/software or are we talking bout going online?

a_ominous

Slightly off original Satnav topic, but for others in Dublin area, try South Dublin County Council address search Set up for searching for planning applications and uses an OSI vector overlay on top of satellite photos.

prospect

MercMad wrote:

I paid €155 for the Ipaq (brand new) and €45 for the Reciever !

Cheers, now, do you mind me asking, how exactly that works?
If you drive from dublin to cork, do you have to pay for a 3.5 hour call while it monitors you, or how does it bill you, or monitor your location?

AlanD

Lots of good feedback there. Thanks lads.

So I think it would be worth looking in to factory fitted sat nav cars in the UK. The way I see it, if I'm going to go to all the effort to go over and buy a car and bring it home, I may aswell get the best value for money possible.

So I presume if I brought in a 2001/2 C270 cdi or an S60 D5 with satnav, I'd need to buy the 2005 disc to bring it up to date?

MercMad

Yes you would need the 2005 disc but be careful with the Merc as the C-Class systems changed considerably in 2004. I know the discs are not interchgangeable so unless they have a 2005 disc specifically for your 2001 car it wont work. I'm sure they would have this though !

Also dont forget that our friends in the VRT office will know from your cars data plate that it came equipped with Sat Nav and they will charge you a portion of the VRT for any extras. BTW the list price for "Command" on a new CLK Merc is €4,900 ! ! ! It IS possible to retro fit succesfully for a fraction of that say €2000 !

Cheers, now, do you mind me asking, how exactly that works?
If you drive from dublin to cork, do you have to pay for a 3.5 hour call while it monitors you, or how does it bill you, or monitor your location?

You dont get billed ! You buy the unit, buy the software and the GPS receiver keeps you in touch with the satellites

prospect

MercMad wrote:

You dont get billed ! You buy the unit, buy the software and the GPS receiver keeps you in touch with the satellites

Nice one,
I always assumed there was running costs, and therefore never looked into it seriously.
Cheers

AlanD

MercMad wrote:

Yes you would need the 2005 disc but be careful with the Merc as the C-Class systems changed considerably in 2004. I know the discs are not interchgangeable so unless they have a 2005 disc specifically for your 2001 car it wont work. I'm sure they would have this though !

Also dont forget that our friends in the VRT office will know from your cars data plate that it came equipped with Sat Nav and they will charge you a portion of the VRT for any extras. BTW the list price for "Command" on a new CLK Merc is €4,900 ! ! ! It IS possible to retro fit succesfully for a fraction of that say €2000 !

I hadn't thought of it that way. I've been using the VRT calculator to work out the VRT due on whatever cars I looked up in the UK. So that obviously doesn't include VRT on added spec. But since the car is secondhand would it matter to them and would they fleece me with some extra VRT in which case it'd be a waste to go looking for a satnav equipped car. I'd rather stick with the standard specc'd car from the UK which is still better than here.

MercMad

But since the car is secondhand would it matter to them and would they fleece me with some extra VRT

..........ehh its the Revenue Commisioners we are talking about here.......have a guess !


You be better to buy the car AND the unit seprately, then have it fitted when you get here !

AlanD

I just noticed on the VRT Enquire website that if there are taxable accessories fitted to your car, they will recalculate the VRT or something to that effect.

Looks like it's not the cheap way in to the satnav market at all. I didn't really want it since my map reading skills are good enough, but if it could be got for cheap enough I'd get it.

It's good to know too that Irish roads are on the more recent systems.

I'd say I'll still get a good cheap UK car though. The S60 D5 is the current front runner.

blastman

Not had much experience of SatNav in Ireland, but when I was in Oz at Christmas I had the use of a relations ute and his Navman GPS PocketPC. I have to say for driving around Sydney it was brilliant.

Would like to buy one of those Dell Axims with the GPS unit, is the guy you bought from a regular seller, MercMad?

unkel

kevmac wrote:

Yep that address is there; you're at the back of the estate and the road is numbered 1-20

Correct! I think it is pretty safe to conclude that satnav in Ireland has come a long way very recently

@MercMad, what is the make / model of the receiver you bought?

prospect

MercMad wrote:

Which is best/cheapest etc.. ?

Sorry to deviate from the OP, but which is best/cheapest software?
I might follow suit with MercMad and buy a handheld PC and a reciever, so that leaves the software.

crang

brother has sat nav in his car. Works like a charm

unkel

kermit_ie just pm'd me with another positive result from his Garmin

Thanks guys, you've converted this non-believer

MercMad

I originally wanted to buy a dedicated unit like a NavMan ICN or Mitac Mio but having looked everywhere I could both on-line and off I couldn't get one cheap enough

I decided a PDA with the relevant bits was the way to go and I spotted a deal in Harvey Normans, a kit which included Palm 31, software and GPS reciever for about Euro 430, I had a go with it as a demonstartion and it worked well. that convinced me that even the cheaper PDA's can be used with fairly good results !

Next stop.............eBay !

I have bought tons of stuff from eBay over the last few years, car parts, TV equipment, cameras you name it with zero bad experiences.....and all cheap !

I surfed around and watched for about a month before buying a basic Ipaq RZ1710. Obviously the quicker the processor and the more memory the better but this works well with an extra memory card. I didn't need email capability but I may go down that road again ( no pun intended )

Anyway just scan the sections for PDA's and watch the regular sellers with high numbers of sales and very high feedback scores (over 98%).

I asked earlier about the software and it seems the Co-Pilot 5 or Tom Tom 3 is the best but there are some identical items with less well known brand names on there so I bought a package for stg£20 from a user called "fab090".

The Reciever, again I surfed and watched the regular moving items and bought from a regular seller, can remember the name but I think the reciever is a Sirf 3 or Jornado or something, I paid stg£38 for it.

So all in all I'm at about €240 for the lot !

kevmac

Excellent article from last year that I forgot about.

I have included the second piece on Navteq mapping Ireland .


http://pocketgpsworld.com/navteq1.php
http://pocketgpsworld.com/navteq2.php
http://pocketgpsworld.com/navteq3.php

Mapping Ireland - A Challenge
NAVTEQ commenced work on mapping Ireland in 2000 and is well on it's way to completing full map coverage of Ireland in 2005.

The Republic presented its own unique set of challenges with historical roots. An economy built on agriculture (before the mid 1800's) meant each county was, for tax purposes, divided into thousands of 'townlands' each comprising of a few farms. That structure remains the basis for today's official postal destination hierarchy.

For a total population of around four million, there are over 50,000 defined 'localities' – each of which needs to be available as a destination. Compare this to the UK where the Royal Mail defines only 25,000 localities for over 54 million people! Consequently, a huge destination hierarchy is needed for the relative size of the population.

In addition, in there are no postal codes outside Dublin and rural road signs are notoriously very poor!

The first step is finding the right source material so a destination hierarchy can be built into the database – country, county, post town, locality – before mapping even begins. The next decision is whether or not the road network can be based on existing digital mapping (perhaps from a Government agency) or whether it has to be digitised from scratch - using either paper maps or aerial photography.

For the major built up areas in Ireland, NAVTEQ chose to commission orthorectified aerial photography from BKS in Coleraine. The geometry captured from this photography forms the basis of the map and incorporates the centre lines of roads, rivers and railways; and also the outlines of land use features.



In more sparsely populated areas, teams of field staff survey the roads using a differential GPS receiver mounted on the roof of a car. This creates a trace of the road centre line. The use of DGPS also allows the database to be updated rapidly - often within days of new roads opening to traffic.

Name and address sources are then added. In the Republic of Ireland An Post and Ordnance Survey Ireland have recently completed the development of GeoDirectory – a complete database of all 1.5 million addressable commercial and residential buildings in Ireland . It locates the centre point of each building to within one metre and includes accurate, standardised postal addresses.

By merging the GeoDirectory data with the road centre lines established by the field teams, road names and address ranges can be added to the road network. Ultimately, this means destinations can be accurately selected by both street name and house number. Finally, the navigable attributes are added to the map.

Back in the office, the laptop is simply plugged in and linked to the main database ready for the new information to be coded and sent back to the mainframe. The data is interpolated using, for the Republic, GeoDirectory to add street names and address ranges to all the new links. It also provides the correct address structure for each link – i.e. the locality, the town/city and the county.

Ireland map coverage as of July 2004


Republic of Ireland
Northern Ireland
Length of road
25,111 km
10,257 km
Area in square kilometres (detailed coverage*)
2,708 sq km
1,430 sq km
Area in square kilometres (intertown coverage*)
68,604 sq km
12,710 sq km
No. of people – (detailed coverage*)
1,250,000
750,000
No. of people (intertown coverage*)
2,750,000
850,000
Cities, towns and villages
998
326
Points of interest
3,831
1,379
Detailed coverage:
Includes details down to house number ranges – meaning drivers can literally receive turn-by-turn instructions from door to door. Every named road, any unnamed roads with public access, pedestrian zones, and any named walkway containing buildings are all included.
Turn lanes, roundabouts and slip roads etc are also added to ensure optimal accuracy when you are on the move. A broad range of off-road features - such as administrative boundaries, rivers, railways, built-up areas, parks and golf courses - all help the driver's orientation.
Even without an address, Points of Interest – such as theatres, restaurants, hotels and tourist attractions - can be selected by name. Using navigation systems, drivers can, for example, ask to be routed to the nearest casualty department or even the nearest petrol station. In rural areas where there are no street names, a village name can be selected.
Intertown coverage:
The areas with detailed coverage will be seamlessly connected by the intertown coverage. This includes defined categories of road which vary from country to country. In the Republic of Ireland , the database will have every Motorway, National road and Regional road. In Northern Ireland every Motorway, A road and B road will be included .
All are mapped to the same high level of accuracy as the detailed coverage areas – taking drivers to 1,152 towns and villages throughout the Republic and Northern Ireland . Most of the off-road features are also included.

Furp

I remember seeing a car with a GPS aerial on the roof and a guy with a laptop and microphone in the passenger seat recently in Navan I was wondering what they where doing they must have been mapping the town for satelite navigation.

I know at the moent on even the ordance survey maps my housing estate is not even shown, id be interested in getting gps system myself.

Alun

Furp wrote:

I remember seeing a car with a GPS aerial on the roof and a gut with a laptop and microphone in the passenger seat recently in Navan I was wondering what they where doing they must have been mapping the town for satelite navigation.

I know on even the ordance survey maps my house is not even shown, id be interested in getting gps system myself.

Saw one myself in the estate in Greystones where i was living a year or so back. A VW Golf with a GPS antenna on the roof with a driver and a passenger with a laptop and headset. I didn't know what they were doing at first, and they looked a bit suspicious driving around quite slowly and looking around, so I went out and asked what they were doing.

AlanD

For those of you that use Palm or Pcket PC based systems then, how have you it integrated in to your car. Why i'd prefer a built in system over the mobile system is down to aesthetics. If there's going to be wires everywhere, I wouldn't like it, but maybe there's nice tidy blue tooth based solutions with nice holders that look part ofthe car.

The 500/600 euro I'd pay in VRT to bring in a car with satnav would get me a version I could use well after I sell the car I buy.

kevmac

Pocket PC 4150 with Brodit dedicated clip for Subaru Forester taking GPS signal from Co-Pilot 5 Bluetooth receiver which sits in the sun roof.

Ernie Ball

Anyone use any of the new Tom Tom units? They have the virtues of being self-contained and using the NavTeq maps.