My car GATSO'd in Dublin while I was out of the country!

bishopofn

Hi

Nice letter with photo when I came home from work

The reg plate of me car, photographed in North Dublin at a time and date when I was in France with GF. :eek:

Speeding. :mad: Points.

I can prove, if need be, I was out of the country.

What I don't know, is Who Was Driving The Bloody Car At The Time

Folks with keys to our apartment:
My parents
GFs pal who was dropping over to pick up post etc
Prime suspect: my little bro who lives with my folks :mad:

Everyone above denies drving the car while we were away

Where do I stand?! I genuinely cannot *prove* who was driving at the time! Do I have to go to court?!

(ps When we got back the car was exactly where we left it)

Advice/comments appreciated...

- Bishop

AMurphy

are you sure it was your car and not someone with false plates. ie, the car nabbed was a black Ford, while yours is a White Opel, etc.

Guy:Incognito

AFAIK unless you have someone to own up and take the points and fine it's all on you. Even if you can prove you were away, the car is your responsibility and without the culprit , you are responsible. Plus f it goes to court and you suddenly come up with the driver or they confess to you, they will probably get done for stealing the car seeing as if you had given permission for them to have the car , you would have said it was them in the begining.

causal

Bummer dude

Does the picture give any view of the inside of the car?
- driver, passenger(s), contents?

Does the location and direction of travel give any clue?
- e.g. if it's near where your little bro's girlfriend lives or in that direction.

Does the date, day, and time give any clue?
- e.g. weekday morning time - folks at work - but bro' at home? etc.

good luck,
causal

Guy:Incognito

AMurphy wrote:

are you sure it was your car and not someone with false plates. ie, the car nabbed was a black Ford, while yours is a White Opel, etc.

I'd imagine if someone was going to use false plates they would take a second to nnote the colour and make/model of the car in case of any checks as I would assume anyone driving around on false plates is up to something dodgy.

Guy:Incognito

Not calling your little brother a liar or anything but fingers would generally be pointing in his direction. PArents,generally being mature and not wanting to get their kids in trouble or cost them money, would be inclined to own up. Little brothers on the other hand...........


How old is this little brother? Maybe a bit of a clip round the ear might draw out the truth?

Our man in Havana

If you don't fess up or tell who was driving they will get you under section 107 Road traffic act 1961

107.—(1) Where a member of the Garda Síochána alleges to a person using a mechanically propelled vehicle that the member suspects that such person has committed a specified offence under this Act, the member may demand of such person his name and address and may, if such person refuses or fails to give his name and address or gives a name or address which the member has reasonable grounds for believing to be false or misleading, arrest such person without warrant.

(2) Where a member of the Garda Síochána has reasonable grounds for believing that an offence under this Act has been committed and that the vehicle in relation to which the offence was committed does not carry its identification mark under the Roads Act, 1920, or any other enactment, the member may arrest without warrant the person whom he has reasonable grounds for believing was using the vehicle when the offence was so believed to have been committed.

(3) Where a person, when his name and address is demanded of him under this section, refuses or fails to give his name and address or gives a name or address which is false or misleading, such person shall be guilty of an offence.

(4) Where a member of the Garda Síochána has reasonable grounds for believing that there has been an offence under this Act involving the use of a mechanically propelled vehicle—

( a ) the owner of the vehicle shall, if required by the member state whether he was or was not actually using the vehicle at the material time and, if he fails to do so, shall be guilty of an offence,
( b ) if the owner of the vehicle states that he was not actually using it at the material time, he shall give such information as he may be required by the member to give as to the identity of the person who was actually using it at that time and, if he fails to do so, shall be guilty of an offence unless he shows to the satisfaction of the court that he did not know and could not with reasonable diligence have ascertained who that person was,
( c ) any person other than the owner of the vehicle shall, if required by the member, give any information which it is in his power to give and which may lead to the identification of the person who was actually using the vehicle at the material time and, if he fails to do so, shall be guilty of an offence.
(5) A person who is guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding fifty pounds or, at the discretion of the court, to imprisonment for any term not exceeding three months or to both such fine and such imprisonment.

Peace

Have you seen the photo.. Thats the first step. Maybe you'll see who was at the wheel, if there were passengers etc etc.

Then opening a can of whop ass on your little brpother would be the second step (it doesn't matter if he was in the car or not).

Our man in Havana

Fill in his name on the form and make it his problem.

drdre

just stick with yourself and tell the police that youare not paying and go to court if you have to. as u will save alot of money eg speeding fine, 2 points which will increase insurance.
irish police will let u goif you keep at it.
but anyway goodluck and hope you get away with it.

Clinical Waste

Ah but what about, GFs pal who was dropping over to pick up post etc

Can he/she be ruled out?

Jumpy

Tell all that you think may have been involved that you are considering taking it to court, and if discovered they will be done for vehicle theft. Unless they own up now.
Then report that it was driven without your consent and hand the Gardai your plane tickets as proof you were out of the country.

edmund_f

as stated before, you have the points unless you can prove it was someone else, or they take responsibility. your car your problem according to the law.
if you let it go to court stating you were out of the country then basically you will be putting the onus back on the cops to find out who was driving the car and to prove it, plus side is that they will probably not be arsed to do anything about it, negative side is that if they are they whoever was driving the car can then be done for theft, question would be if they do find and were able to prove who was driving the car and tried to proscute, could you just refuse to press charges?

looking for a win win situation here, you go to court and prove you were not driving the car, then if the cops try to get who was driving the car for theft(or whatever) you can just refuse to press charges?

ubu

He says a letter with a pic of the reg plate of his car, not the car, so I presume he cant see the rest of the car and tell who was in the car/direction it was going, etc

Anyway, tell everyone involved that your handing it over to the gards and going to court and make it their problem, does your bro even have a licence?

( b ) if the owner of the vehicle states that he was not actually using it at the material time, he shall give such information as he may be required by the member to give as to the identity of the person who was actually using it at that time and, if he fails to do so, shall be guilty of an offence unless he shows to the satisfaction of the court that he did not know and could not with reasonable diligence have ascertained who that person was

bazz26

As far as I am aware the law states that the registered owner of the vehicle gets the points on their license if the driver commiting the offence cannot be identified at the time.

This covers excuses used like my brother's friend's sister in law was over from Australia for a few days and she was driving the car at the time. Knowing that the garda are not going to bother tracking down someone half way around the world.

prospect

So, I drive a gold megane. I have seen a good few identical cars around.
Why couldn't i just note their reg, have plates made up, and stick them on my car when i feel like getting down to cork a half hour quicker?

Surely, if you can prove you couldn't possibly have driven the car, you should be exempt. What is to say someone didn't do the above?

nellieswellies

Seek legal advice, I may be wrong but is it not the case that if you appeal this and then go to court it is up to the Guards to prove you were driving the car and not for you to prove you were not the driver of the car.

As I said I may be wrong so don't take this as fact but a solicitor should be able to help you out.

John2002

A friend of mine who runs a garage got a speeding ticket in the post, when he checked his diary he found that he hadn't been anywhere near where the car had been clocked i.e. somebody else from the garage had borrowed his car that day. I'm not sure if it went to court, don't thinnk so though, but I know that he got away without getting the points and just ended up paying the fine.

JP Mulvano

ubu wrote:

He says a letter with a pic of the reg plate of his car, not the car, so I presume he cant see the rest of the car and tell who was in the car/direction it was going, etc

Anyway, tell everyone involved that your handing it over to the gards and going to court and make it their problem, does your bro even have a licence?

This is quite difficult to prove in court that you didn't know who the driver of the car was. The only time I've ever seen someone get off with this excuse and claim they didn't know who was driving was when the picture caught the drive and it was quite obvious the driver was a woman and the registered owner was a man. Even then he still had to pay the court fees and the fine as at the end of the day the car was his responsibility and it was left to him to find out who was driving the car.

Basically the gardai are not going to try and track down who was driving the car. They'll leave that to you and if you can't find out who it was then they'll leave the burden of the fine/court fees on you if you let it go to court.

My advice unless you have a whole heap of penalty points already is take the fine and the points and beat the spit out of whoever drove the car.


P.s. I think you can still request a copy of the picture maybe that might help identify the culprit. Most of the time it takes a picture of the whole front of the car rather than just the number plate.

fenris

keep it simple,

1. you were out of the country and can prove it => not you in the car

2. get the photo and verify it looks like your car

3. tell them where you left the keys, but do not speculate on the driver, you were not there so you cannot know. It is not your role to investigate on behalf of the guards, give them all the concrete info you can, then you cannot be accused of obstruction. The car may have been stolen and put back - reasonable doubt ?

4. make sure that you tell them if you gave anyone consent to drive your car. if someone abused your trust, you have no duty to shield them, they should face the consequences

You are being accused of an offence, so you need to refute that charge. You need to prove is that you were not there and furnish any relevant concrete info to the guards, anything beyond that is just bringing trouble on yourself, resist the urge to explain, if it helps you it will be ignored, if it casts doubt on your side of the case it will be used against you.

Get a soilcitor, go to court, it is your only chance to defend yourself.
The case will probably be thrown out by a judge, that is if the guards super even allows him to turn up, they are not interested in setting more precedents that will weaken the publics impression that gatsos or the people running then are infallible (going to be privatised remember). Anything that encourages the public to defend themselves against the current revenue generating scheme will not be looked on favourably by the powers tha be.

Stix

In future what you do is make a small mark on the tyres at about 7 0clock. This way if it was moved, u can tell when u get back.

aodh_rua

Have you spoken to a solicitor yet? Sage and all as the boards elders are, you might get something more concrete from speaking to a professional - especially as this is quite an unusual case.

seamus

It would seem the Road Traffic Act is in your favour.

Go to court, bring your airline tickets, and any other proof you have that you weren't in the country at the time (receipts, bus tickets, etc), and the photo. Tell them exactly what you've told us here - that your car was available, but nobody admits having driven, bring signed letters if you think it'll help.

Essentially, you've done the utmost that you can to try and ascertain who was driving. The court cannot expect you to have done anything else.
All that said, I'd do two things first;
Try and guilt your little brother into it, if you're sure it's him. Offer to take the points (assuming they won't affect your insurance) if he'll own up and pay the fine. Highlight to him the hassle and stress it will be to you to try and get this squashed.
Talk to a solicitor. I'm not one, and despite what I say above, I could be dead wrong, and so could everyone else here.

Rew

Stekelly wrote:

I'd imagine if someone was going to use false plates they would take a second to nnote the colour and make/model of the car in case of any checks as I would assume anyone driving around on false plates is up to something dodgy.

No I know of at least one or two times false plates were used and there was no effort to match up the type of car or the colour. One case was a Hiace van and the plates were for a car

RainyDay

I'd recommend having a good chat with a friendly Guard initially, preferably with documentary proof of your travel to hand to show that you're serious. He/she should be able to give you some suggestions - you can't be the first person in this situation.

MercMad

As someone who has recieved points when I wasnt driving I can tell you two things. One, the only way you will even get to SPEAK in Court is if you have a solicitor. Thats going to cost between 350-500 Euro depending on which Court it goes to.

Two, you have 28 days to nominate someone and if this passes YOU get the points even if someone confesses.

I would call into, dont phone, a Garda station and talk to someone there. Then talk to a solicitor !

Tell your family etc. that you are bringing the car to the police station for fingerprinting !!

Good luck !

Dades

Get two mates to dress up as Special Branch (sports coats, fake ID etc.) and pay a visit to your little bro.

An hour or two of good cop/bad cop should get the truth out of him.

Canis Lupus

The Atheist wrote:

Get two mates to dress up as Special Branch (sports coats, fake ID etc.) and pay a visit to your little bro.

An hour or two of good cop/bad cop should get the truth out of him.

Oh jeez that would be so funny. Specially if the lad was real young like. Even better would be having them bring handcuffs to arrest the lad and take him away.

Santa Claus

The Atheist wrote:

Get two mates to dress up as Special Branch (sports coats, fake ID etc.) and pay a visit to your little bro.

An hour or two of good cop/bad cop should get the truth out of him.

Sports coats...what kind of special branch have you ever met ? Only lads who wear sports coats are the Detectives who've been shaved shiny so they can appear on crimeline.
As for getting fake ID, oh yeah fake Garda ID are 2 a penny aren't they !

Canis Lupus

Santa Claus wrote:

Sports coats...what kind of special branch have you ever met ? Only lads who wear sports coats are the Detectives who've been shaved shiny so they can appear on crimeline.
As for getting fake ID, oh yeah fake Garda ID are 2 a penny aren't they !

erm, I think he was making a joke :rolleyes:

Clinical Waste

Stix wrote:

In future what you do is make a small mark on the tyres at about 7 0clock. This way if it was moved, u can tell when u get back.

Or take your car KEYS with you nex time!
( and the gf can take the spare one in her purse)

vector

prospect wrote:

So, I drive a gold megane. I have seen a good few identical cars around.
Why couldn't i just note their reg, have plates made up, and stick them on my car when i feel like getting down to cork a half hour quicker?

Surely, if you can prove you couldn't possibly have driven the car, you should be exempt. What is to say someone didn't do the above?

Yes that would work, one problem would be if a guard did a radio "reg check" of your adopted plate 00-D-12345 the reply from the control centre wouldn't just be "gold meagne" it would be "gold megane registered to Mr John Smith, 15 Main Street, Dublin" the guard would then ask you for your address and you wouldn't know the correct address, also if you were in an accident and someone called the guards you would have to switch the plates pronto or maybe your insurance wouldn't cover you?

prospect

vector wrote:

Yes that would work, one problem would be if a guard did a radio "reg check" of your adopted plate 00-D-12345 the reply from the control centre wouldn't just be "gold meagne" it would be "gold megane registered to Mr John Smith, 15 Main Street, Dublin" the guard would then ask you for your address and you wouldn't know the correct address, also if you were in an accident and someone called the guards you would have to switch the plates pronto or maybe your insurance wouldn't cover you?

Hmmmm, I see your point.
Right, If i got a small motor built into each bumper, and attached them to rotating blocks, with my reg on one side and a fake reg on the other, wired a switch to the dash.. ..... .. . ..

vector

prospect wrote:

Hmmmm, I see your point.
Right, If i got a small motor built into each bumper, and attached them to rotating blocks, with my reg on one side and a fake reg on the other, wired a switch to the dash.. ..... .. . ..

Yes, but

what would happen if you crashed and you car was taken for "technical examination" and gone over with a fine toothcomb, however from I can't imagine it being illegal as it seems, I mean it would certainly be illegal to display an incorrect plate, but if you displayed the correct plate and just had the otherone in an non-visible internal portion of the vehicle it would be like carrying it in the booth.

prospect

vector wrote:

Yes, but

what would happen if you crashed and you car was taken for "technical examination" and gone over with a fine toothcomb, however from I can't imagine it being illegal as it seems, I mean it would certainly be illegal to display an incorrect plate, but if you displayed the correct plate and just had the otherone in an non-visible internal portion of the vehicle it would be like carrying it in the booth.

LOL,
This is turning a wee bit Hypothetical!
I meam, If this did happen, and the guard asked my name, I would have to say, Bond, James Bond....

Guy:Incognito

prospect wrote:

Hmmmm, I see your point.
Right, If i got a small motor built into each bumper, and attached them to rotating blocks, with my reg on one side and a fake reg on the other, wired a switch to the dash.. ..... .. . ..

Has someone been watching the transporter or james bond?

Our man in Havana

prospect wrote:

LOL,
This is turning a wee bit Hypothetical!
I meam, If this did happen, and the guard asked my name, I would have to say, Bond, James Bond....

Indeed

ubu

Stix wrote:

In future what you do is make a small mark on the tyres at about 7 0clock. This way if it was moved, u can tell when u get back.

that or just note the milage

mike65

Hmmmm, would the OP like to get back to us and say if he gave his brother a clip round the ear?

Mike.

unkel

mike65 wrote:

Hmmmm, would the OP like to get back to us

My thoughts exactly! Where art thou, bishopofn?

Rew

unkel wrote:

My thoughts exactly! Where art thou, bishopofn?

Probably locaked up for GBH on his little bro

bishopofn

hi folks

still here, just working late eves this month

thanks to all for advice/humour/theories

at the moment the little bro [I say little, he's 22] is the prime suspect... he's been suspiciously out of contact the last 24 hrs

From what I can see in the photo, yep it's black, but I can't i.d. the make or model

I think I'm going to drop into a Garda station the weekend, and have a 'hypothetical discussion' with one.

Let ye know how I get on...

- Bishop

Victor

nellieswellies wrote:

Seek legal advice, I may be wrong but is it not the case that if you appeal this and then go to court it is up to the Guards to prove you were driving the car and not for you to prove you were not the driver of the car.

No. The law on motoring tends to be if you don't identify the driver two offences have been committed (1) by the driver (2) by the owner.

aphex™

Victor wrote:

No. The law on motoring tends to be if you don't identify the driver two offences have been committed (1) by the driver (2) by the owner.

What? That makes no sense.. what did the 2nd driver do?

Victor

aphex&#8482 wrote:

What? That makes no sense.. what did the 2nd driver do?

You mean the owner? They allowed the car be used - although claiming the car was stolen is a defence for the owner.

aphex™

Victor wrote:

You mean the owner? They allowed the car be used - although claiming the car was stolen is a defence for the owner.

Yeah. Exactly, he didn't allow the car to be used.

All he has to do is go down to the cop shop and show them proof he was out of the country. "And who did ye let use de carrrr?" "nobody- maybe somebody has the same plates or something- i've heard of that before...."

stratos

when you get the summons it will contain the full photograph of the car and it is pretty easy to identify the driver from it. a practice they are going to have to give up because of infringement of privacy as blokes were getting caught with the er bit of stuff with em. nuff said.

Curran

stratos wrote:

when you get the summons it will contain the full photograph of the car and it is pretty easy to identify the driver from it. a practice they are going to have to give up because of infringement of privacy as blokes were getting caught with the er bit of stuff with em. nuff said.

LOL..........speakin for experience there stratos???

Stinger if ya are............livin on the streets now....in a cyber cafe....filling us all in....so we dont go and do it!

stratos

no comment I swear i was going to a sheep trial!

Curran

stratos wrote:

no comment I swear i was going to a sheep trial!

Like she belived that..............its a hard life.......when you get caught like that...thinking you are the cheese with other lady!

Stephen

Well bishopofn - any news?