Building a small swimming pool advice

Loobz

Hi there.

This might seem like a crazy idea but it just might work.
My dad is thinking of building a small outdoor swimming pool adjoining a garage he's building. I was wondering if anyone has had any experience with outdoor pools? Can anyone give some advice/do's and dont's? Also, would we strictly need planning permission for this project??

Its rough dimensions are 9 feet x 20 feet.
I have drawn rough plans of what he intends on doing. Please feel free to tell me if what we plan to do is totally incorrect. My Dad is a bit of a handy man and plans on building this himself. We would rather not hire a pool guy to build one for us.

1) Proposed Pool <-Click Link

In the above sketch, I have highlighted the area in red where we plan on building the pool. I think that there is some kind of sealant we could buy that we could 'paint' the plaster on the wall with. Does this exist and if so, would it be water tight? We have access to a minidigger and industrial cement mixer to build the foundation. The tiled area will be raised.

2) Pool Canopy <-Click Link

In this illustration, we plan on building a canopy to cover the pool area due to our crap weather. The canopy would consist of tubular 5 supports (similar to ones seen in garden tunnels). This would in turn get covered by industrial strength plastic (again, seen in tunnels).

Maybe he has ideas of drainage using pumps, Im not sure as we havent discussed this yet. Any suggestions on that? Should we install jets in the pool to keep the water from going stagnant?
So what do ye think of the idea? Building an outdoor pool in Ireland may seem crazy, but with the canopy descibed above, that should generate some heat. We had a tunnel before and by god it was very hot inside.

All advice appreciated.

embraer170

Cool project and I'm very interested in seeing the type of replies you get. I have often dreamed of a small outdoor pool at my parent's place.

This probably isn't much of answer but you'll find all what you want in France. Thev French are mad in DIY pool kits, even supermarkets sell then.
For example:
http://www.carrefour.fr/catalogues/piscine-detente/
Page 18+ (clique Suivant to move on to the next page)

I presume you'll definitely need jets, some kind of filter and some kind of chemicals.

hansov

Don't know much about swimming pools as I can only do the anchor stroke!! Reckon tho' that your local authority will want you to have planning permission and adequate answers to the drainage issues. They also may levy you with extra water charges as this is not your normal family bath! h

lomb

hansov wrote:

Don't know much about swimming pools as I can only do the anchor stroke!! Reckon tho' that your local authority will want you to have planning permission and adequate answers to the drainage issues. They also may levy you with extra water charges as this is not your normal family bath! h

dont need any planning, if anyone asks its a fishpond. good luck with it

Loobz

http://www.carrefour.fr/catalogues/piscine-detente/

There are some nice pools in there. Wish I lived in France, Id say my Dad is going to just have a concrete floor and sides for the pool. I was wondering if there is any knid of sealant we could get to paint the floor and walls with. Im sure I saw it or heard about it before.

prospect

Would you not consider tiling it.
A nice mosaic tile will give a more inviting look...

embraer170

I'd say it would have to be special tiles (otherwise they could crack) and that brings the cost way way up.

Loobz

Tiling is an option, but as Embraer said, maybe pool tiles are more expensive??

embraer170

Can they even be bought in this country?

Loobz

Id say standard tiles would be ok so long as the grout is treated with a waterproof additive.

embraer170

I'm not convinced with the pressure of the water weighing on them.

the_syco

Tile it. It'll be waaaay easier to clean.

Also, ensure that there are no electricity cables, pipes, etc, where you are digging, otherwise you may waste some time. Also, minidigger versus electric cables...:rolleyes:

Finally, I'd say leave at least a foot of land between the pool, and a nearby wall, or you may weaken the wall foundations, imo.

Loobz

Thanks Syco. Will keep that in mind. Where could I purchase the materials needed for this project? We live in a suburban area (if u could call it that) with an acre of ground totally detached from any other house. If we were living in a housing estate this project may cause planning problems.

pollyantic

I think you need planning permission for the pool if its below ground level.

Loobz

Also, what materials would we need in order for this to be successful? Would ye think that the heat generated by the plastic canopy would be sufficient? Or would we need heaters? Im having difficulty finding somwhere that sells pool equipment. Any suggestions? Thanks

pauln

I would think the biggest problem with this would be getting the walls and floor right. They would have to be fairly heavy duty/reinforced to hold back all the clay when the pools empty and the water in when full.

Are you thinking of shuttering and pouring or blockwork?

Loobz

Id say pouring the floor. The walls exist as it is, he may reinforce them as it was not planned when the walls were built.

kadman

How deep is the pool, I never came across the depth dimension in the posts, or maybe I missed it,

kadman

Loobz

Not sure of the depth but its probably going to be the same depth all round. We havent decided. I wouldnt think it will be more than 4- 5 feet. We're not going for proper depths (ie shallow and deep) Maybe we are wrong by doing that.

rooferPete

Hi,
Swimming pools are an item I'm not familiar with except making EPDM liners for tanks and waterproofing basements.

Try Sika Ireland www.sika.ie if it's concrete and need a waterproofer then they have some very hard to beat products.

Ideal for the internal plastering and waterproofing, they have very interesting coatings that are applied similar to slush coats, not cheap but worth every penny where needed.

I think there are two items that can cause pools to fail, one is ground water pressure pushing against the sides and damaging the structure and the floors are known to crack if not properly reinforced.

As to the depth, I may be wrong but I think there are insurance issues regarding kids being able to get out of pools in a fast safe manner, so 4 foot might be too deep.

They may not be your own family but even a youngster straying in would be drawn to the pool, so make sure you don't have to regret cheap advice

RooKad (Engineering Division) have been known to undertake management for such projects.

kadman

So are you looking at an excavated area of 9x20x5.
That means removing 900 cubic feet for pool area+ excavation for wall and floor thickness.

900 cubic feet area filled with water would be approximately , 2000 gallons of water. Based on the rough estimate of 2 gallons per cubic foot.

If memory serves me well 1 gal = 10 lbs.


At 10 lbs per gallon weight, that would give 20,000 lbs or approximately 9 ton.

With these figures would it be wise to get an engineers advice on the build.

Are my figures correct, I think so.

kadman

kadman

Well feck it Rooferpete,

You must be fecking psychic, everytime I press " submit reply",
your bloody post pops in seconds before me. Have you gone over to the dark side or what.

As usual Rooferpete, we both look beyond the fairy tale image of projects, and get down to the nitty gritty end of engineering and logistics of this particular project.

I think we have both identified , that there are major forces at work here that may require expert advice, and it would be the proper thing to do to ensure a good outcome.

Are you first on our letter head, because you're quicker on the draw

Rookad rules,

kadman

Ps check my figures Rooferpete,

Loobz

Looks like this project will need a lot of thought. It seemed like we could do this on our own. In our simple minds, we thought we just needed to build a 9x20x4 feet waterproof tank and making sure it can hold the water.

rooferPete

Sorry Kadman,

I think this calls for a board meeting of RooKad (Enginnering Division), perhaps we could tap the bank manager for a loan or maybe a get us a lease on a calculator ?

Actually it's worse than first anticipated or I wrote something down wrong my estimated weight is

900 cubic feet as per you calculations the weight was bothering so in the course of performing due diligence on behalf of the firm (OK I it checked on whatis.com) a cubic foot of water at 4 degrees C weights 62.3 lbs

Of couse you are correct 1 gallon = 10 lbs

but a cubic foot of the stuff weighs 62.3 lbs which does seem strange.

Maybe it's back to the drawing board on the weight issue, I did notice you were kinda guessing at a very acceptable 2 gals per cubic ft .

Not to worry I think the client is hesitating as we communicate the civil enginnering won't suffer on the loss of one job


.

kadman

Hi Rooferpete,

A cubic foot = 62 lbs, yes that seems a lot indeed.
So 900x62 gives us 55800 lbs/ 2240= 24.91 tons.

Amazed. I used the 2 gallons, based on a 2 gal bucket approximately 12" sq, hence cubic foot.

Well that sort of weight/force definitely requires engineering input.
I am amazed at the weight of a cubic foot of water :eek:

Well this job is a non runner then Peter, looks like we'll have to overcharge on the " length of a piece of string " job then.

oooops...er...sorry I said the string ...word...ooops ..done it again

kadman

rooferPete

Kadman,

I just went back and checked that on three different sources on that site they are all around the same weight for a cubic foot of water.

I am every bit as surprised as you are

.

kadman

Well if Archimaedes says its 62 lbs, who am I to argue,

kadman

Loobz

So is the project a no go situation? Can we do this on our own? I just realised today that a friend of ours maintains pools for a living and we only thought of it today. Will give him a buzz and see what he says,

The side wall labelled in the diagram is going to be reinforced with a couple of tonnes of strong readymix at the base. We will dig 2- 3 feet behind the wall and fill the hole with cement.. It looks like that only 1 foot or so of water will actually be against the wall, the rest will be underground, reinforced with a heavy cement mix behind. So most of the pressure will be near the bottom anyway, leaving the existing wall to deal with a foot of water plus its pressure.

Sorry if I didnt make myself clear. Again, tell me if im wrong, I can take the criticism

Edit: Our friend may point us in the direction of pumps and jets, possibly even supply what we need. I cant find any Irish companies who stock anything to do with pools.
If the pumps, filters, jets etc end up costing a fortune, Dad will scrap the idea id say. But I have a feeling that we will definitely need pumps, filters and jets to keep the water clean. I presume the water must have some kind of circulation soe of the time?

rooferPete

Hi Loobz,

Well Kadman,

When they get the invoice for this consultancy they won't be able to argue about how handy the job was

I do think you may have gone a tad overboard waking up old Arcimedes after all these years of rest, I know I can be wrong but not that far out

I take it you are digging down around what is already there ?, perhaps it would be a good idea to fit a waterproofing against the walls before you back fill, I know a lot depends on the water table but water can be a very powerful force.

Yes you will need a filter system or you will end up with a stagnant pool, I understand swimming pools are at their most dangerous long before you see or smell the water going stagnant.

There are guidelines about how many gallons per hour need to be filtered to keep the water safe and hygenic, there are also guides about how much chlorine you need.

I do know they can be an expensive item to maintain so crunch all those numbers before you start.

Best of luck with it.

.

yankinlk

pauln wrote:

I would think the biggest problem with this would be getting the walls and floor right. They would have to be fairly heavy duty/reinforced to hold back all the clay when the pools empty and the water in when full.

Are you thinking of shuttering and pouring or blockwork?

oh god, please dont do this project. I dont want to see you or your family on deadliest home videos... Have you ever seen a pool anywhere in the world similar to the sketch you have put up? I think theres a reason walls arent built next to swimming pools. I can see it toppling over and not only crushing, but drowning a poor swimmer.

ALso, Paul is right. Think of the pool as a giant bowl sitting in the ground. When you empty it the forces around it could cause it to "pop" out of the ground... thats if the forces dont crack it open first.

kadman

rooferPete wrote:

Hi Loobz,

Well Kadman,

When they get the invoice for this consultancy they won't be able to argue about how handy the job was

I do think you may have gone a tad overboard waking up old Arcimedes after all these years of rest, I know I can be wrong but not that far out



.

Eureka,

Rooferpete, does that mean we can collect on Archies cut, seeing as he's not around anymore.

Definitely agree that engineering input is a must on this project, its hard to believe that the amount of water, adds up to that significant figure.Hard to advise on this one, standard construction advise is o.k, but there may be other issues involved, that are not readily identifiable.

Strange that there are no engineers on this forum. Maybe if the Engineering forum was posted with a query.

kadman

Loobz

I was at a garden centre at the weekend. I saw a number of filters for fishponds, assorted by the amount of water in the pond (gallons). I saw one that filters 2000 gallons of water for 250-300 approx. Would that do the same job as a 'swimming pool' filter? I think my Dad has sourced a very powerful pump also.

the_syco

A bar around the pool is a must, as is a ring-buoy.

Also, pop into your local swimming pool, and get a few pointers on safety issue's, etc.

Why? So if a neighbour hurts themselves through their own stupidty, you can cover your ass from a big lawsuit.

=-=

Don't think you need a ring-buoy? Remember this: I could drown you in 5 (or is it 3) inches of water!

smileygal

Hi,
Canopy/decent cover really important re leaves/insects

Waterproof seal- special fibre glass coating done by a pro

If i had the money I'd go for a hot tub - much easier, sturdy and hot water no matter what the weather and guaranteed to impress

Ferror

Some good advice would be to insulate it first, whatever method you're using... It'll prevent any heat that IS in the water from escaping into the ground.

I know of a guy with a similar diy built (no insulation seperating ground), was indoors though and heated.

He found that even with the boiler running full blast it was far too cold! Eventually he just decided to abandon it and capped it with a wooden floor!!

Do plenty of research and good luck!

flocker

Slightly off topic but:-
I've seen a hot tub made from polystyrene. It was contoured, coated with a cement based render and mesh then covered in mosaic tiles. I would imagine that it would have a great insulation value and was light weight, so no need for heavy duty foundations.
l will post the link if l can find it.

Loobz

Just a bit of an update on the progress of the pool.
The shed and walls in the pics are now built. We dug out the foundation for the pool. Dad bought some steel (mesh) to reinforce the bottom. He is going to pour roughly 7 inches of a concrete floor. I will take a few pics later just to give you all an idea of it.

I have been doing a bit of research on pool covers.

Solar/Floating Covers:These covers are the least-expensive type and are often the best choice for consumers concerned with reducing energy costs. In some areas, solar covers, which typically have a bubble-like surface on one side, will virtually eliminate the need to heat pools during the regular swim season. The covers keep larger debris out of the pool, reduce evaporation and protect plaster, vinyl liners and above-the waterline pool parts when the pool is not in use. These covers, however, offer little or no safety protection and can be difficult to handle or store. Some of these covers can be held down with weights placed on the deck, but they are not considered securely anchored for safety purposes.

Where could I get one of these locally?

thierrys other hand

hi! did you go through with the pool? fairplay if ye did.