2005 Draft - Make Your Own Picks

Mr.Nice Guy

So the WWE have released details about the draft. Instead of it taking place on one night it will run for many weeks with Raw getting five picks from Smackdown and Smackdown getting five picks from Raw. It starts June 6th and ends June 30th. For more details see here:

http://www.wwe.com/inside/news/2005draftnew1_0516.jsp

What I want to know is, if you could make the choices who would you trade? You must take 5 Smackdown stars to Raw and 5 Raw stars to Smackdown.
Here are mine:

Raw to Smackdown:

Shawn Michaels
Christian w/Tomko (hopefully Tomko will be allowed go too)
Chris Jericho
Eugene
Rob Conway

Smackdown to Raw:

Rob Van Dam
Bubba Ray Dudley
D-Von Dudley
Kenzo Suzuki
Rene Dupree

Who would you like to see drafted?

Raw to Smackdown:

Edge (I'd prefer to see Christian feud with Batista than Cena tbh :rolleyes: )
Ric Flair
Shawn Michaels
Shelton Benjamin
Trish Stratus (Why not.)


Smackdown to Raw:

Kurt Angle (Out of all the drafts this would be one I'd like the best)
Dudley 1
Dudley 2
Duprée
Rey Mysterio (challenge for the IC title. Don't think he's World Championship material yet.)


Anyway, that's my €0.02.

TheGreatOne

RAW to SMACKDOWN

Jericho
Christian
Stone Cold (He's officially on the RAW roster and i think he's going to have some role on SD soon since he's coming here in June)
Edge (looses his MITB, would be sweet)
Orton

SMACKDOWN to RAW

Angle
Carlito
RVD
Orlando Jordan (split up the cabinet)
Haas

This is a mixture between what I'd like to see and what I think will happen, need to be realistic.

gimmick

Raw to Smackdown:
1. Orton
Once he returns from injury, he could have a decent feud with Cena, as these two are seen as the companies future. Start a rivalry akin to Austin/Rock.

2. Christian
Well it has been hinted for ages, and he is out to get Marky Mark

3. HeartBreaker 1
4. Heartbreaker 2 (or is it heart throbs)
They seem to be bringing back 'real' tag teams on SD, so these two could help the divison no end, with MNM, Dudleys etc

5. Hurricane
Change gimmick to Shane Helms and get involved in the CW scene

Smackdown to Raw
1. Haas
Turn him heel, great feud with Benjamin

2. Dupree
Re unite with La Resistance, making way for a face turn from Conway, who will do well in the IC scene.

3. Jindrak
Himself and Masters feud for a bit, and no one will care.

4. Guerrero
Leave him heel, feud with Jericho, Benjamin, Benoit.

5. Miss Jackie
Apart from being enaged to Haas, I think she could do ok in the ladies division. She is trained, and the the womens division is very bare at the moment.

Mr.Nice Guy

gimmick wrote:

2. Dupree
Re unite with La Resistance, making way for a face turn from Conway, who will do well in the IC scene.

I think Conway has alot of potential and that Grenier is holding him back. What do you think? I hope they are split up in the draft. They had a bit of a falling-out a few weeks back so it could happen.

Cactus Col

To Raw:

1) Undertaker - he's not doing anything there, team him with viscera and dominate tag team for a while, maybe start a new ministry

2) Eddie Guerrero - he's boring on smackdown at the moment ... feud with mysterio isn't really working for me ... making him a right sneaky little bastard again.

3) Charlie Haas - heel turn, team up with maven, feud with benjamin and jericho

4) rene dupree - like the idea of him returning to raw, and either not being let back into la resistance and turning face to feud with them, or getting conway kicked out.

5)maybe chavo - the cruiserweight division is too limiting for him, stick him on with eddie to win tag titles, or throw him in to the intercontinental mix.


To Smackdown:

1) Kane - cause he's great and deserves to have a major title around his waist, and he's not gonna get that on raw

2) Christian - would immediatly go into the title chase on smackdown, and could have a much more entertaining feud with cena then jbl could. A good feud between cena and christian could make them both top level superstars

3) Benoit, wasted on raw, can do great stuff with angle, as either an enemy or a tag partner ... make the tag titles something worth caring about again.

4) Orton - would go straight in to top flight as well, feud with booker.

5) Tajiri - team him up with Funaki - give them a good tag run

gimmick

Regarding Dupree, Im sure I read somewhere recently that he is off TV, in order to be 're-packaged', which would suggest that even if he does get drafted, its doubtful he will re-align with La Resistance.

As for Conway, well he is a very capable singles star, as he was a multiple time OVW world champ, feuding all the way with Nick Dinsmore aka Eugene.

One thing I notice about all our picks above is they just involve wrestlers/divas. For this years draft, they have made it very clear that everyone is up for drafting, so does anyone see a change in GMs, announcers, interviewers (funaki/coach etc).

Also, a thought I had (boy did it hurt). The draft is going on for 4 weeks. Now for arguments sake, Christian gets drafted to SD on the very first night of the draft. Is it not entirely possib;e that he could be re-drafted back to Raw on say, the 3 week of the draft? Has it been specified that this cannot happen?

Also, another variable which comes into play is the Raw only PPV - Vengeance, while the draft is still happening! Is it possible that say a feud develops between say Edge and Kane, to continue what happened recently on Raw. Now what if a PPV match is announced between these two, and one is drafted to SD in the meantime. Would that match still happen as an interbrand, or would it just be cancelled? Or am I just being a total mark here?

Thoughts??

Cactus Col

And don't forget about Trades! .. from what I understand trades are gonna be taking place between the two rosters, so if kurt angle gets drated to raw, you can probably expect him to be traded back for melina and heidenrich!

but I don't really see a few of my picks happening.

Fozzy

Angle for Melina and Heidenreich, what a deal that would be for Bischoff

Dupree's not off tv, he was on Velocity with the exact same gimmick last week

I'd say the big drafts will happen in the lottery, but smaller ones willl happen with the trades. Like maybe Christian would go in the lottery, and Tomko will be traded afterwards

Mr.Nice Guy

I wouldn't be surprised if Coach got drafted to Smackdown. He's not really involved on Raw right now other than as Bischoff's spokesperson.

As for trades, I hadn't thought of that. Perhaps a champion will be drafted and trades will be done to keep them there. For example, Cena is drafted for Raw but Theodore Long trades the Dudleys and Angle for Cena or something like that...

Fozzy

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

As for trades, I hadn't thought of that. Perhaps a champion will be drafted and trades will be done to keep them there. For example, Cena is drafted for Raw but Theodore Long trades the Dudleys and Angle for Cena or something like that...

And if that were to happen, Cena would probably have to vacate the title..too many theories going on....bet it ends up a lot simpler than all this!

Brow

They were saying yonks ago that Garrison Cade will be more than likely traded. Imagine tuning in to find out the big trade of the week is garrison cade. Hardly illuminating. Since its one a show over four weeks I expect a lot of dull trades.

Winning Hand

Why does people reckon on a push for haas? Is there talk in circles I am not aware of? I like him as a wrestler and think he could do great things in a feud against shelton benjamin (haas of pain Vs T-bone)

Secondly, is anyone else concerned that the 'raw volunteers' will dominate the ECW event to well and truly bury the name of ecw?

Mr.Nice Guy

Winning Hand wrote:

Why does people reckon on a push for haas? Is there talk in circles I am not aware of? I like him as a wrestler and think he could do great things in a feud against shelton benjamin (haas of pain Vs T-bone)

Secondly, is anyone else concerned that the 'raw volunteers' will dominate the ECW event to well and truly bury the name of ecw?

I don't think Haas wiill get anywhere by going to Raw as he will be in the shadow of Benjamin. He's not as good as Shelton in my opinion and I think he needs a good heel run on Smackdown.

As for ECW, I think it would be terrible if the WWE ruins the ECW PPV with this storyline. From what I've heard Heyman and Tommy Dreamer were given alot of freedom with the PPV and JR was acting as a go-between for Vince. I hope that the WWE plays only a small part. For example at the start of the PPV, Bischoff and some Raw guys show up threatening to ruin the event and all the ECW guys come out and put them through tables and this is a way of kicking off the event. That wouldn't be too bad.

Brow

I dont think Haas is going to get the push he deserves on smackdown. If he got traded to raw I think he'd get a better chance. Imagine Shelton welcomes him with open arms, a few tag matches over the weeks reuniting the WGTT, maybe against Hassan and Daivairi or Jericho or something and then Haas suddenly turns heel and costs Benjamin a match. They could push that feud so high as both are tremendously skilled and know what each other is capable of.

Kio

Raw -> Smackdown

Chris Benoit
Eugene
Simon Dean
Christian
viscera

Smackdown -> Raw

Carlito
Big Show
Mark Jindrak
Rene Dupree
Undertaker

Fozzy

Kio wrote:

Raw -> Smackdown

Chris Benoit

Hasn't Benoit moved between shows about 4 times now?!

Mr.Nice Guy

Brow wrote:

I dont think Haas is going to get the push he deserves on smackdown. If he got traded to raw I think he'd get a better chance. Imagine Shelton welcomes him with open arms, a few tag matches over the weeks reuniting the WGTT, maybe against Hassan and Daivairi or Jericho or something and then Haas suddenly turns heel and costs Benjamin a match. They could push that feud so high as both are tremendously skilled and know what each other is capable of.

What exactly is Haas capable of? He's nothing compared to Shelton. On Raw he wouldn't last and he'd soon wind up on Heat.

Fozzy

I always thought Haas was better than Shelton when they were together. They just haven't given Haas anything near what could be called a decent push. He always held up very well back in the WGTT days

gimmick

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

What exactly is Haas capable of? He's nothing compared to Shelton. On Raw he wouldn't last and he'd soon wind up on Heat.

Im sure most would have said the same about Shelton Benjamin pre 2004 draft. From what Ive seen of Haas, is that he is a very solid in ring performer, with a technical skill not unlike Benoit.

Brow

Haas is a tremendous wrestler. The reason I think he doesnt get the push he deserves is that he's too similar to Kurt Angle. Benjamin got a push when he first came on Raw by having Triple H put him over twice. That got people to sit up and notice. Benjamin has since run with it and made a name for himself by being consistant. Haas on the other hand got a controversial win over RVD and took what storylines were handed to him. He did well with the Rico storyline and were totally over. Had either been in the others shoes it would have been the same outcome.

Mr.Nice Guy

Brow wrote:

Haas is a tremendous wrestler. The reason I think he doesnt get the push he deserves is that he's too similar to Kurt Angle. Benjamin got a push when he first came on Raw by having Triple H put him over twice. That got people to sit up and notice. Benjamin has since run with it and made a name for himself by being consistant. Haas on the other hand got a controversial win over RVD and took what storylines were handed to him. He did well with the Rico storyline and were totally over. Had either been in the others shoes it would have been the same outcome.

I don't agree at all. Haas has not got Shelton's athleticism, innovation or intensity. He can wrestle alright but to say he is "tremendous" is ridiculous. Yes Benjamin got a push but the real push he got came from Taboo Tuesday and the fans voting for him to have that IC title match against Jericho. Hass got unlucky with Rico getting fired and eventually released but any storyline he was given he was poor. Remember Miss Jackie and Dawn? Haas just hasn't got the charisma to make it work. He has no decent finisher either. Had Haas been in Benjamin's shoes he would have flopped.

gimmick wrote:

From what I've seen of Haas, is that he is a very solid in ring performer, with a technical skill not unlike Benoit.

I saw Haas against Reigns at the Point and that match was the only one that got loud "boring" chants. Haas is bereft of charisma, intensity and ring psychology in my view. He's years away from being at Shelton's level.

Fozzy wrote:

I always thought Haas was better than Shelton when they were together.

I'm surprised at that. I always thought Shelton was the better wrestler. When Team Angle had several matches with Lesnar, I thought Shelton put up a better fight than Haas.

gimmick

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

I saw Haas against Reigns at the Point and that match was the only one that got loud "boring" chants. Haas is bereft of charisma, intensity and ring psychology in my view. He's years away from being at Shelton's level.

And the year previous when Benoit faced Kane in the Point, there were loud 'BORING' chants as well for some odd reason! Now dont tell me that neither of those are bereft of the qualities you mention above.

I saw Haas and Holly Vs The Bashams a few weeks ago, and thought Haas totally carried the match. He sold well, and I felt his knowledge of the ring was exceptional. He was in 'Team Angle' for a reason, a real wrestler with quality skills.

Mr.Nice Guy

gimmick wrote:

And the year previous when Benoit faced Kane in the Point, there were loud 'BORING' chants as well for some odd reason! Now dont tell me that neither of those are bereft of the qualities you mention above.

Are you serious? Well that crowd was pretty dumb but if you look at crowds on Smackdown week in and week out the crowd aren't really into Haas' matches. At least when Shelton leaves the ring the fans are impressed.

gimmick wrote:

I saw Haas and Holly Vs The Bashams a few weeks ago, and thought Haas totally carried the match. He sold well, and I felt his knowledge of the ring was exceptional. He was in 'Team Angle' for a reason, a real wrestler with quality skills.

Well he didn't look bad in Team Angle so this proves he can wrestle at a high standard but for people to use adjectives like "tremendous" to describe him is OTT in my opinion. I find it difficult to name one match that Haas has blown me away with in terms of his wrestling ability. With Benjamin, I could name several matches. For people to compare Haas and Benjamin now is ridiculous in my opinion. Benjamin has grown into one of the best wrestlers in the WWE yet Haas has remained where he was and if he's not careful, he will go backwards. Going to Raw will not do his career any good in my opinion. He hasn't cut it on Smackdown and Raw is a step-up.

gimmick

^^^ Shelton didn't really 'cut' it either on SD before he was drafted, and look at him now.

The reason that Haas hasnt shone, is due to lack of a decent storyline on a decent show. SD has been about the WWE championship and very little else for too long now. So, in those circumstances it is very difficult for someone to shine, especially when you take into consideration that it seemed that the writing team seemed to be only on the case of promoting Cena to a degree that he could be a credible champ (though for me the jury is most certainly still out).

When you look at SD programming, Haas is a good example of a guy who can wrestle anywhere, without loosing credibility. He has been low on the card, he has been high mid-card. As for great matches, well how many 'great' SD matches can you remember in the last 14 months which have included Eddie Guerrero/ Kurt Angle or Paul London???

Personally, I wouldnt like to see him go to Raw just yet (Im aware he is in my picks). I think a feud for the US title isnt beyond him, which could do wonders for him.

Mr.Nice Guy

gimmick wrote:

^^^ Shelton didn't really 'cut' it either on SD before he was drafted, and look at him now.

But Shelton grew in the past 12 months into one of the best wrestlers in the WWE. Haas didn't.

gimmick wrote:

The reason that Haas hasnt shone, is due to lack of a decent storyline on a decent show.

Did Benjamin have a decent storyline though? His IC title run was started due to the fans voting for him at Taboo Tuesday. He never looked back after that.

gimmick wrote:

SD has been about the WWE championship and very little else for too long now. So, in those circumstances it is very difficult for someone to shine, especially when you take into consideration that it seemed that the writing team seemed to be only on the case of promoting Cena to a degree that he could be a credible champ (though for me the jury is most certainly still out).

Well Smackdown's writing team has been shocking alright but the storylines they did give him he didn't do very well with. He was only average in the Rico storyline and didn't show much charisma (although to be fair Shelton is lacking in that area too) however he was given a storyline with Dawn Marie and Miss Jackie and it was a disaster when it could have turned him into a decent heel. I don't think the fans cared though...

gimmick wrote:

When you look at SD programming, Haas is a good example of a guy who can wrestle anywhere, without loosing credibility. He has been low on the card, he has been high mid-card.

He will likely be on the losing end of MNM tonight though so what does that say about his credibility? Even if him and Holly win the belts, I can't see that team getting over.

gimmick wrote:

As for great matches, well how many 'great' SD matches can you remember in the last 14 months which have included Eddie Guerrero/ Kurt Angle or Paul London???

All three guys have been great on SD and on PPVs. Angle had great matches with HBK, Marty Jannetty, Big Show, Eddie Guerrero, John Cena to name a few. Eddie had great matches with Rey, Kurt Angle, JBL and was solid during his title reign. London had a great match with Kidman a few months back that put him on the map even though he lost. It may have been No Mercy I'm not sure. He was then wasted on Velocity where he had great matches with guys like Akio before putting on a good matches against Chavo and eventually taking the Cruiserweight title. Hass...well that proves my point. I don't think he had any great matches...

Brow

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

Well he didn't look bad in Team Angle so this proves he can wrestle at a high standard but for people to use adjectives like "tremendous" to describe him is OTT in my opinion. I find it difficult to name one match that Haas has blown me away with in terms of his wrestling ability.

Ive seen Haas in a different light to some of you maybe as I have a best of OVW dvd i picked up in the states a while back. If you could only see how over haas was with that crowd not to mention the match he put on you would see that this guy is of star quality.

As for saying Shelton grew as a star, he was given storylines. To say he made a star of himself by holding the IC belt is a farce. It all started when Triple H put him over. It was suprising that it happened twice and people just accepted he was something special. He put on some good matches over the weeks, cut a few promos and it was down to either him or Christian for the Taboo Tuesday vote as no one else stood a chance. Christian being the heel was bound to lose it was not suprising to see Shelton go out and win. Had Shelton not been given the push before hand no one would have cared about him more than anyone else.

Mr.Nice Guy

Brow wrote:

Ive seen Haas in a different light to some of you maybe as I have a best of OVW dvd i picked up in the states a while back. If you could only see how over haas was with that crowd not to mention the match he put on you would see that this guy is of star quality.

I can only comment on matches I've seen him perform on Smackdown and with that said, he's not a star by any means.

Brow wrote:

As for saying Shelton grew as a star, he was given storylines.

What storyline was he given aside from being able to get one over on Triple H? He was given top quality opponents but his in-ring ability merited that. I can't think of him being given a major storyline to work with hence the reason why he is seen as being a Benoit-like wrestler. He has no real gimmick to speak of, just his ability.

Brow wrote:

To say he made a star of himself by holding the IC belt is a farce. It all started when Triple H put him over.

It's not a farce. Look back at what Shelton was doing prior to the IC title vote. He was doing nothing. He had no storyline to speak of at all. Winning the belt gave him a role within the company. He was passed the torch and he ran with it. He's held the belt for a very long time and didn't even have to turn heel during his reign. He has beaten cleanly the challengers placed before him despite his lack of a gimmick.

Brow wrote:

It was suprising that it happened twice and people just accepted he was something special. He put on some good matches over the weeks, cut a few promos and it was down to either him or Christian for the Taboo Tuesday vote as no one else stood a chance. Christian being the heel was bound to lose it was not suprising to see Shelton go out and win. Had Shelton not been given the push before hand no one would have cared about him more than anyone else.

It's farcical to say he was given a push when he got injured if you remember which took him off our screens for several weeks. Shelton won the vote because the fans wanted him to because he got over with the fans. From what I recall, Batista got decent results in the vote too. Haas didn't have any good matches on Smackdown. They could have had Haas get a win over The Undertaker and he still wouldn't have gotten over with the fans. He's just not good enough at this point in time.

Vince135792003

Haas looks like a really good worker. He lost alot of that credibility i think with the whole rico storyline. He went from a storyline with Angle and shelton that I though was really cool to being made look like an idiot. To me he looks good in the ring but theres nothing about him that makes him unique or to make him connect with the fans. Personality is short on supply but hey at least hes getting married to Jackie. This brings me on to my next point. There seems to be a correlation with wrestlers who have no charisma in the ring getting the hottest divas in the wwe.
Test, he dated Stacy
Billy Kidman (who I like but just does nt have that spark) is with Torrie
Charlie Hass is with Miss Jackie
I could add in Trips and Edge but them two guy get a hard enough time on the net as it is, its getting boring.

gimmick

This is going round is circles now.

Fact - Haas is a top class wrestler

Fact - Shelton Benjamin is a top class wrestler

Fact - Shelton has been given a large push

Fact - Haas hasn't

Maybe if Haas is given a push we can reconvene this discusiion. For now, its pretty much all specualtion.

Mr.Nice Guy

gimmick wrote:

This is going round is circles now.

Fact - Haas is a top class wrestler

Fact - Shelton Benjamin is a top class wrestler

Fact - Shelton has been given a large push

Fact - Haas hasn't

Maybe if Haas is given a push we can reconvene this discusiion. For now, its pretty much all specualtion.

I tkae issue with those facts. I would say:

Fact - Hass is a class wrestler

Fact - Shelton is an exceptional wrestler

Fact - Shelton won over the fans

Fact - Haas didn't

gimmick

Look at the difference in their 'pushes'. Haas didnt receive one, Benjamin did.

Winning Hand

As I said above, I think haas could do great things in a switch to raw, or at least a new storyline (just had a idea- haas teaming up with matt morgan). That being said, pushes aside shelton is the better wrestler. Haas could become a great IC champion, or US title and become a solid mid carder the rest of his career. Shelton on the other hand could be a great WWE champion and given a good gimmick he could run rings around the opposition.

Changing topic again, does anyone else get the impression that kurt angle has done more to elevate booker T in 4 weeks than anyone else since his arrival to smackdown?

Mr.Nice Guy

gimmick wrote:

Look at the difference in their 'pushes'. Haas didnt receive one, Benjamin did.

You need more than a push to get over though. Haas got a push and didn't run with it whilst Benjamin did. You can get a big push and flop spectacualrly. Mordechai anyone?

I remember reading an article about Triple H where he said that regardless of what gimmick or storyline you have, the onus is still on you to make it. He pointed to guys like Stone Cold and The Rock and how Rock got "Die Rocky Die" chants directed towards him and became absolutely hated. I don't usually agree with Triple H but I agree with him on that and come to think of it, Triple H had a lousy gimmick originally and he survived being held back for that year due to the Clique incident with Nash and Hall, so I think to say that Haas didn't get over due to a lack of a push is just an excuse. He's just not good enough. Maybe he will be one day but not now in my view.

Vince135792003

I'd agree completely. A good wrestler but generally heel or face people are apathetic towards him.

gimmick

When did Haas get a push? When was he ever given any sort of decent exposure once out of Team Angle? When did someone like HHH, Flair, Jericho etc 'put over' Haas?

Stalfos

He was kinda pushed as a tag team with Rico but when Rico left, Haas fell pretty much straight away but i think he was injured so it's not really his fault.

Mr.Nice Guy

gimmick wrote:

When did Haas get a push? When was he ever given any sort of decent exposure once out of Team Angle? When did someone like HHH, Flair, Jericho etc 'put over' Haas?

He got a push in the first few weeks. I've checked the 2004 Smackdown results post-draft. Here are some of them:

April 1st, 2004

Charlie Haas def. Rob Van Dam in a Great American Award nominee match

April 8th 2004

Charlie Haas and Big Show def. Rob Van Dam & Booker T

April 15th

Rico def. Charlie Haas by count-out

April 22nd

Charlie Haas & Rico def. Rikishi and Scotty to become new WWE tag team champions

April 29th 2004

Charlie Haas & Rico def. Basham Brothers to retain their WWE tag team titles.

In his first month, he beat RVD who I think I'm right in saying had just been drafted to SD too and though he lost to Rico by count-out he and Rico won tag gold so he did get a push. He also had an angle involving Dawn Marie and Miss Jackie though he failed to make it work.

Vince135792003

Its kinda weird how in the last week theres been threads up on Hogan and Flair but the enigma that is Charlie has dominated the board.

Brow

It's one thing to get a push as a tag team and quite another to get pushed as singles. Haas on his first month solo beat RVD controversially to be entered in the WWE.com vote for a title shot against JBL, Big Show, John Cena and I think it was Angle or Booker, I cant remember. Haas never stood a chance of getting in the scene against those. Then he gets shunted back into the tag division with Rico, which in fairness won over some fans. Oh, and to say HE didnt make the Jackie/Dawn storyline work isnt fair at all. It was a terrible storyline to begin with and the writers never followed it up. Had Haas taken Dawn as his valet and went uber-heel it would have been a good push but it was just dropped.

Now compare Benjamins record on his solo debut on RAW...

# .
# March 29, 2004 - RAW: Shelton Benjamin scored an upset victory over Triple H in the main event of the night
# April 5, 2004 - RAW: Shelton Benjamin beats Triple H for the second week in a row, this time by COUNT OUT victory!.
# April 12, 2004 - RAW: Michaels & Foley & Benoit & Benjamin beat Evolution (HHH/Ric Flair/Randy Orton/Batista) in the main event..
# April 18, 2004 - Backlash: Shelton Benjamin defeated Ric Flair with a clothesline from the top rope..
# May 3, 2004 - RAW: Shelton Benjamin & Tajiri & Edge defeated Evolution (Triple H/Randy Orton/Batista)..
# May 10, 2004 - RAW: Triple H vs Shelton Benjamin is a NO CONTEST when Shawn Michaels shows up and attacks Triple H!
# May 24, 2004 - RAW: Chris Jericho & Shelton Benjamin defeated Randy Orton & Batista..
# May 31, 2004 - RAW: Shelton Benjamin defeated Randy Orton in a NON (IC) Title match

Hardly the same push or exposure now.

gimmick

We are going round in circles here.

Beating the likes of Rikishi and Scotty in a tag match hardly equates to a push in the same breath as Benjamin beating HHH 2 weeks in a row and a PPV victory over Flair.

As for beating RVD, well, what has he done since being drafted? De-pushed thats what! So beating him counts for very little.

He also had an angle involving Dawn Marie and Miss Jackie though he failed to make it work.

A diva angle which hasnt worked? Never?!?

What i am saying is that, given the proper oppurtunity, Haas could be a big draw. He has the skills, but hasnt been given as big an oppurtunity to shine.

Mr.Nice Guy

Brow wrote:

It's one thing to get a push as a tag team and quite another to get pushed as singles. Haas on his first month solo beat RVD controversially to be entered in the WWE.com vote for a title shot against JBL, Big Show, John Cena and I think it was Angle or Booker, I cant remember. Haas never stood a chance of getting in the scene against those. Then he gets shunted back into the tag division with Rico, which in fairness won over some fans.

"Shunted back" implies he was majorly over. You yourself have admitted he wasn't by saying he "never stood a chance" against the others for the Great American Award. What were they supposed to do with him instead? There were other guys drafted too. Considering he won the tag titles within his first month and was given an entertaining storyline, that's alot better than what other guys drafted got.

Brow wrote:

Oh, and to say HE didnt make the Jackie/Dawn storyline work isnt fair at all. It was a terrible storyline to begin with and the writers never followed it up. Had Haas taken Dawn as his valet and went uber-heel it would have been a good push but it was just dropped.

No, the onus is on him to make it work. As I said earlier when I mentioned what Triple H said, you can get lousy gimmicks and make something out of it. That's what sets great wrestlers apart. What gimmick does Shelton have? He doesn't have one he just gets over through his ability. Haas doesn't have such ability though.

Brow wrote:

Now compare Benjamins record on his solo debut on RAW...

Two things are worth mentioning though:

1)There were big plans for Haas and Rico but Rico got injured and subsequently released.
2) You neglect to mention that Shelton suffered an injury round about June or so and yet came back and was strong despite his lack of a gimmick or storyline. Winning the Taboo Tuesday vote helped Benjamin out.

gimmick wrote:

Beating the likes of Rikishi and Scotty in a tag match hardly equates to a push in the same breath as Benjamin beating HHH 2 weeks in a row and a PPV victory over Flair.

Benjamin was ready for his push though in the eyes of WWE management. Haas and Benjamin fought each other shortly before the draft and Benjamin got the win. Tells you what WWE management were thinking...

gimmick wrote:

As for beating RVD, well, what has he done since being drafted? De-pushed thats what! So beating him counts for very little.

Beating him counts for alot, don't be ridiculous. RVD may have been de-pushed over the next few months but when Haas beat him he was still way over. You can't tell me Charlie Haas beating RVD isn't an upset!

gimmick wrote:

A diva angle which hasnt worked? Never?!?

Diva angles can work if you're charismatic enough. See Viscera for example.

gimmick wrote:

What i am saying is that, given the proper oppurtunity, Haas could be a big draw. He has the skills, but hasnt been given as big an oppurtunity to shine.

And yet for all the skills you and others see in him you can't name me one match that he's blown you away with! I'm saying Haas is overrated and that he has little to no charisma.

gimmick

^^^ One match

me wrote:

saw Haas and Holly Vs The Bashams a few weeks ago, and thought Haas totally carried the match. He sold well, and I felt his knowledge of the ring was exceptional.

Brow

When I said shunted back I meant that after being given a very, and i mean very short singles spot he was put into a tag team. There was no attempt whatsoever to have him go alone as a high mid carder. It doesnt mean he was majorly over, not in the slightest.

As for the diva storyline it was going well. As i suggested they had a chance to make a charlie a good proper heel but the story was dropped without notice leaving him in a lurch.

Benjamin comes back from injury to do what. Thrown straight back into six man tag matches against evolution the main heel group of RAW. Big emphasis as Orton and Benoit were on the team in the title picture. Given matches with the high carders. Then leading into Taboo Tuesday....

# )
# September 20, 2004 - RAW: Chris Benoit & Randy Orton & Shelton Benjamin beat Evolution (Triple H & Ric Flair & Batista)..
# September 27, 2004 - RAW: Shelton Benjamin defeated Triple H by DQ (HHH pedigreed Benjamin on the floor after the match)..
# October 18, 2004 - RAW: Shelton Benjamin beat Christian, Hurricane, Tajiri, Rhyno & The Coach in a 6-WAY..
# ~~~As a result, Benjamin earns Vince McMahon's personal endorsement, but Benjamin says he only cares about the peoples vote..

Winning a match over six others, getting spots with McMahon, Shelton got the best push going into that match. WWE wanted him in that match and made sure it happened.

Mr.Nice Guy

Brow wrote:

When I said shunted back I meant that after being given a very, and i mean very short singles spot he was put into a tag team. There was no attempt whatsoever to have him go alone as a high mid carder. It doesnt mean he was majorly over, not in the slightest.

The WWE didn't feel he was good enough, that's why. Just because he was part of a tag team prior to the draft doesn't mean he never had singles matches. As I said before the draft he wrestled Benjamin and lost to him. The WWE gave him opportunities and felt he wasn't ready. He has had singles matches in recent weeks and months and has still been unimpressive which is probably why he's tagging with Holly now.

Brow wrote:

As for the diva storyline it was going well. As i suggested they had a chance to make a charlie a good proper heel but the story was dropped without notice leaving him in a lurch.

Going well? The thing stunk from start to finish because Haas had no charisma. At least the Dawn Marie and Al storyline had its moments.

Brow wrote:

Benjamin comes back from injury to do what. Thrown straight back into six man tag matches against evolution the main heel group of RAW. Big emphasis as Orton and Benoit were on the team in the title picture. Given matches with the high carders. Then leading into Taboo Tuesday....

# )
# September 20, 2004 - RAW: Chris Benoit & Randy Orton & Shelton Benjamin beat Evolution (Triple H & Ric Flair & Batista)..
# September 27, 2004 - RAW: Shelton Benjamin defeated Triple H by DQ (HHH pedigreed Benjamin on the floor after the match)..
# October 18, 2004 - RAW: Shelton Benjamin beat Christian, Hurricane, Tajiri, Rhyno & The Coach in a 6-WAY..
# ~~~As a result, Benjamin earns Vince McMahon's personal endorsement, but Benjamin says he only cares about the peoples vote..

Yes, he was given opportunities but he still had to take them and make them work. But you have claimed that he was given a push. How? He was placed in matches yes but he still had no gimmick. If you recall, there were clips about Benjamin before he returned saying "Call me Mr. Benjamin" yet this didn't become his gimmick and he never used this line!

Brow wrote:

Winning a match over six others, getting spots with McMahon, Shelton got the best push going into that match. WWE wanted him in that match and made sure it happened.

This proves nothing. Before Taboo Tuesday, Edge won a match agaisnt Benoit and HBK which it was claimed should help decide who should be picked for the match against Triple H for the World title but HBK still won quite comfortably in the end even though he was injured!

gimmcik wrote:

^^^one match

I asked you for a match that blew you away. What you described didn't sound like it blew you away. Let me put it to you a different way if it helps, name a match that earned major praise for Haas in the same way Benjamin's match with HBK or Y2J or the Money in the Bank match did for him. I doubt you can.

gimmick

^^^ Apples and oranges. MNG, you seem to know what the wwe writers think, so myself and Brow will bow to your superior knowledge.

Mr Nice Guy wrote:

didn't sound like it blew you away

Sorry for not using more onamatopaeias (sp?), alliteration etc. I saw the match, Haas was the outstanding performer.

You are right, I am wrong, just like you were 100% correct to dismiss NWA Ireland after one show.

I think Haas is a good/great wrestler.

I think that given a decent push, he could achieve great things.

I think that Sheltons push was far more invested than any push Haas may have gotten.

I think Shelton is a great wrestler also.

Brow

Yeah thats one thing I'd like to add. I think Shelton is highly impressive, i'm not going out to take anything away from him. Just to put him on a whole other level to Haas is unfair when both where given different treatment.

I'll give you two matches Charlie was great in. Him vs Kurt Angle, June 19th and him vs Chris Benoit Jan 23. Relatively new on the scene he held his own with both these competitors.

Oh and to say Edge was given a push going into that match before hand, yeah ok, he won some matches but were the majority of fans going to vote for a heel? All the young fans would have voted for HBK and similarly Benjamin in the votes as Edge and respecably Christian, both second to the eventual winners, were 'bad guys' at the time.

Mr.Nice Guy

gimmick wrote:

^^^ Apples and oranges. MNG, you seem to know what the wwe writers think, so myself and Brow will bow to your superior knowledge.

No need to be so aggressive gimmick. I respect both you and Brow. Just because we disagree on Haas doesn't mean we have to act hostile.

gimmick wrote:

Sorry for not using more onamatopaeias (sp?), alliteration etc. I saw the match, Haas was the outstanding performer.

I don't understand what you're saying here. You and I have discussed fantastic matches that Shelton has had in recent weeks. Against Jericho, HBK etc. I just wanted one that Haas gave.

gimmick wrote:

You are right, I am wrong, just like you were 100% correct to dismiss NWA Ireland after one show.

It's not about being right or wrong. We have a difference of opinion and we're discussing it on a discussion board. I think the NWA Ireland comment is a cheap shot and is uncalled for.

Brow wrote:

Yeah thats one thing I'd like to add. I think Shelton is highly impressive, i'm not going out to take anything away from him. Just to put him on a whole other level to Haas is unfair when both where given different treatment.

Ok, we disagree in relation to "different treatment" but surely you agree that Benjamin has surpassed Haas in ability since they were together as a tag team?

Brow wrote:

I'll give you two matches Charlie was great in. Him vs Kurt Angle, June 19th and him vs Chris Benoit Jan 23. Relatively new on the scene he held his own with both these competitors.

When did these matches take place and how come you can remember them?

Brow wrote:

Oh and to say Edge was given a push going into that match before hand, yeah ok, he won some matches but were the majority of fans going to vote for a heel? All the young fans would have voted for HBK and similarly Benjamin in the votes as Edge and respecably Christian, both second to the eventual winners, were 'bad guys' at the time.

The point is, the fans don't always do what the WWE would like them to do. Shelton won the vote because the fans wanted him to and surely you agree that he has been a great IC champion?

gimmick

Hands up, I over reacted, simply because as the discussion was going in circles, but it wasnt being left go.

Now, Im sure the topic is the draft, shall we get back on topic???

Brow

Yeah, Im all up for giving this a rest. We all have our own opinion in this matter. But just to answer some questions put to me before we go back on topic...

I got the OVW dvd yonks ago and after seeing Haas on it I kept an eye out for his debut. When I saw team angle debut i taped a fair few matches. Thats the reason I remember them as they were great matches. I had to look up the dates just in case you asked when but it was on smackdown around team angle time.

And of course I agree he has been a great champion. It came down to him and Christian that night and must admit on the night I was vying for christian but sure enough Shelton won and he has done an impressive job since. I just wish Charlie would get a similar opportunity with the US title or something.

Now, case closed for the time being. Back to topic.

Mr.Nice Guy

gimmick wrote:

Hands up, I over reacted, simply because as the discussion was going in circles, but it wasnt being left go.

Now, Im sure the topic is the draft, shall we get back on topic???

Ah sure I know you Cork boys have a fiery temper every once in a while.

I'll leave the Haas debate alone now as I think my points have been made enough. I do wish him well and I hope he gets a good chance no matter where he ends up in the WWE.

Hopefully the draft won't disappoint. It will be on for long enough so it better live up to the hype!