Glenrue Ltd - Midlands based building co. - any experience??

Seanie M

I am due to purchase a house with my fiancée very soon, and we are just doing the usual pre-paranoia house background check. The house in question was built by Glenrue Ltd., Building & Civil Engineering Contractors based in Kilcruttin, Tullamore, Co. Offaly. I can't find any information on the net about them. I am wondering if anyone here has had dealings with them such as has/had a house built by them (first hand or subsequent purchaser), what that house was/is like - noticeable defects in the workmanship, nags, praises etc etc.

Thanks in advance,

Seanie.

Seanie M

I should also add, that feel free to PM me regarding your thoughts (if any), as I don't want any flame wars or libelloud comments regarding them posted in public, thanks! One poster has already done so, and I value his opinion, which came from a good source in a negative point regarding them, which I would prefer if people knew about it.

As a thought, can the mods tell us IF such a post is legal/ok? Good versus Bad Builders by workmanship they have done? The public have a right to know, and in some contexts, its no different to people actually talking about said workmanship - as long as what is typed is clean and backed-up.

Seanie.

babaduck

Ring Homebond to see if they are a registered member - this gives you a lot of protection against structural faults, but not against standard problems after purchase - 1850 306300

Also try the Construction Industry Federation - 01 4066000 & the Irish Home Builders Federation - also at that number

If they're not registered with any of those bodies, run for the hills & don't give them your money

Seanie M

babaduck wrote:

Ring Homebond to see if they are a registered member - this gives you a lot of protection against structural faults, but not against standard problems after purchase - 1850 306300

Also try the Construction Industry Federation - 01 4066000 & the Irish Home Builders Federation - also at that number

If they're not registered with any of those bodies, run for the hills & don't give them your money

Thanks for that babaduck. For your last point though, problem is, its an existing house (4 years old), so its already there. But, I will try the numbers you have given.

Cheers.

Victor

Ask them for refereences and ask to see a few jobs they've done recently.

babaduck

Sorry Seanie,

I didn't realise you weren't buying a new home - I've never heard of people checking out the builders of 2nd hand houses before.

Your most valuable ally is Homebond which gives a 10 year warranty against structural faults only, and a damn good architect/surveyor to check the house with a fine tooth comb pre-purchase.

Good luck
Babaduck

Seanie M

Victor,
I have already heard a few bad things about them, so I don't know what to expect. I have always believed that builders and developers are cowboys, looking for the best buck in the quickest time.

Babaduck,
The few faults I have found in the house (so far) are NOT covered by Homebond. I rang them yesterday and asked. Glenrue is registered to them, but could not give my a good/bad "credit history" about them unfortunately.

Seanie.

Victor

Seanie M wrote:

The few faults I have found in the house

If these faults are fundamental (structural cracks, unlevel floors, serious damp), then walk away, buying lemons are only worth it if you fully know how to fix it.

If they are things like plaster cracks, minor settlement, wonky doors, short cuts, etc. then agree with the seller how much they will cost to fix and take this off your price.

Seanie M

Victor wrote:

If they are things like plaster cracks, minor settlement, wonky doors, short cuts, etc. then agree with the seller how much they will cost to fix and take this off your price.

One fault seems to be a bad joist running from front to back of the house on the downstairs ceiling. A plaster board has moved from this joist, with a few nails sticking out slightly. It is showing the same trend into the sitting room on the same joist. Its like it has shrunk. One could just nail the fecker back into the joist, patch and paint the ceiling plaster afterwards, but it looks like only a matter of time before it recurs...

Victor

If you are going to go ahead, make sure you have a structural survey from an engineer (not an architect of other).

Is there any wall cracking (or recent plastering / painting) or roof damage? Especially along this line.

kadman

Seanie M wrote:

One fault seems to be a bad joist running from front to back of the house on the downstairs ceiling. A plaster board has moved from this joist, with a few nails sticking out slightly. It is showing the same trend into the sitting room on the same joist. Its like it has shrunk. One could just nail the fecker back into the joist, patch and paint the ceiling plaster afterwards, but it looks like only a matter of time before it recurs...

Nails sticking out slightly do not point to shrinking timber. Shrinking timber would grab the nail more tightly, so should not show nails sticking out. I would be more inclined to think of problematic joist, either too small in section for span if a ceiling joist. Or maybe poorly fixed floor joist, if first floor, and moving under load. Could be purlin supports down onto timber ceiling joist instead of solid wall, or load bearing panel.

Is it timberframe construction, or block. What part of Tullamore.

kadman

Seanie M

Victor wrote:

Is there any wall cracking (or recent plastering / painting) or roof damage? Especially along this line.

We have a structural engineer lined up to have a look and certiy the house.

As for other cracks etc, there is a pattern of 2 cracks upstairs. When you stand on the landing and look to the bathroom, there is a crack over the door from jamb to ceiling. What appears to be a corresponding crack behind it on the line of sight goes from the top of the window in the bathroom to the ceiling, so yes, it looks like settling there.

My fiancée and I have drawn up a (relatively) short list of things for the engneer to look for and form an opinion. ut I am dismayed regardless at the lack of 'warranty' on a new house regards to builders shortcomnigs.

S.

Seanie M

kadman wrote:

Nails sticking out slightly do not point to shrinking timber.....

....Is it timberframe construction, or block. What part of Tullamore.

Its in Rhode village actually, and is a crap timberframe dwelling. I hate timberframe. Its noisier, you can hear your neighbours, and I DON'T think its more efficient on heating (making it more cold in winer - I say this cuz we rented in one 2 years ago).

Regarding the shrinking joist hypothesis, I'd say you're right - it would grab the nails more. Then why, on one joist, are ALL the nails (through 2 rooms) showing signs of protruding from the plasterboard? The fact that you can phsically push the ceiling back to the ceiling joist in the kitchen and see the nail heads sticking out is worrysome.

S.

lomb

timberframe is not a solid means of construction. concrete built is better built and thats not just a marketing line.

Victor

Seanie M wrote:

Then why, on one joist, are ALL the nails (through 2 rooms) showing signs of protruding from the plasterboard?

You are meant to use screws for plasterboard, not nails.

Seanie M

Victor wrote:

You are meant to use screws for plasterboard, not nails.

Thats what I thought... no surprise here so...

kadman

Seanie M wrote:

Its in Rhode village actually, and is a crap timberframe dwelling. I hate timberframe. Its noisier, you can hear your neighbours, and I DON'T think its more efficient on heating (making it more cold in winer - I say this cuz we rented in one 2 years ago).

Regarding the shrinking joist hypothesis, I'd say you're right - it would grab the nails more. Then why, on one joist, are ALL the nails (through 2 rooms) showing signs of protruding from the plasterboard? The fact that you can phsically push the ceiling back to the ceiling joist in the kitchen and see the nail heads sticking out is worrysome.

S.

Poorly built timberframe, are crap wooden boxes. Well built timberframe are better, but well built concrete are better again.

The original concept of timberframe built homes many years ago was one of , cheaper than block. It does not seem to be the case now. Many tf companies market their product as equal to block built costwise. Strange.

With out actually seeing the tf build as a hole, its hard to pin down the exact problem.

Timberframe erection process requires certain steps to be taken during erection to minimise any problems related to kit movement, becoming apparent throughout the house.
Two major areas that will have an impact elsewhere in the house are, uneven soleplate, and purlin supports.
If a sole plate is uneven along its length , it needs to be packed with slate, galvanised shim packs, under the soleplate, below the stud its supporting.
In each low area. Mostly never dealt with.
And sometimes purlin supports in the roof are dropped onto, ceiling joists above a non load bearing panel. And non load bearing panels in timberframe do not come into contact with ceiling joists, hence deflection of the joists.

Your sentiments that it is a crap Tf build is probably correct. Walk away.

My major fear is relative to the cracks in the places up stairs. These cracks are in the timberframe panels, and this means that the panels are not properly supported. These panels may or may not be loadbearing, but they are not properly supporting the structure. If you have loadbearing panels not properly supported, recipy for disaster.

Does your engineer have timberframe experience



Again I have to commend you on your investigative techniques Sherlock.
Well done


kadman

Seanie M

kadman wrote:

Does your engineer have timberframe experience

Dno't know yet, I haven't as yet booked an engineer to go out yet. I have an appointment with the solicitor on Wednesday, she got the mortgage pack from the bank, so this will be noe area covered.

kadman

Are the cracked panels parallel to the ridge line, and do the cracks run in the same direction on both panels.

Is this house in an estate, with similar houses, built by the same contractor.

Have you talked to locals in the same type house.

kadman

Seanie M

haven't talked to anyone else in the estate. And yes, there are other houses built by Glenrue in the estate. The Estat Agen said that of the 90 or so house built, it was shared between 4 c contractors.

The cracks I described are pretty much parallel, so it is a setling fault, or so it looks.

Victor

Why are you still looking at this house?

kadman wrote:

The original concept of timberframe built homes many years ago was one of , cheaper than block. It does not seem to be the case now. Many tf companies market their product as equal to block built costwise.

Thats market economics for you.

Seanie M

Victor wrote:

Why are you still looking sat this house?

The price coupled with location, and the fact that as I am self employed (with no tax returns/P60 yet),and my fiancée not as long in her current job as would be desired, has forced us to go for this kind of market share in houses. Know what I mean?

kadman

How far apart are the panels that are cracked.

If the cracks are paralell, and the panels are far apart, that would indicate settling over a wide area.

If one or two of the panels are loadbearing, I can understand how they would crack, but they should be constructed with osb on two sides to prevent racking ( diagonal movement ), and thus prevent cracking.

Non load bearing panels should not crack., as they should not be carrying a load., as they are not designed to.

You mention the price is the reason for your choice. Is this house more reasonable in cost as compared to other houses in the midlands.
Are there any other similar houses in the estate for sale.




kadman

Seanie M

The cracks appear in, apart from ceiling joists above it, a non-load bearing area. From what I described as the source, I could not find a trend over the door of the box room behind me in the line of sight of the other 2 (over bathoom door, and over bathroom window as seen when standing on the landing).

Regards the house price, there are some other houses in the estate for sale, but there has been competition or them. We met the asking price of this one simply to secure it and get the wheels in motion to get a house while its young, affordable, not in a knacker estate (sorry for the wording, but you know what I mean), and the interest rates low.

From what I have found of the other houses bought and sold in the estate in the past 2 and a half months since we paid the holding deposit, our house to-be has already gone up €6-8,000, so it also has the plus of being a very good potential investment in the short-term..

kadman

I am a bit mystified as to how a non load bearing panel could crack.

It may have a load imposed on it from the roof, that you are not aware of.
If as you say its not load bearing, and is carrying no load, racking of some other part of the structure, may have caused it.

Are there any cracks in the blockwork outside. Or in any of the perimeter walls, upstairs or down stairs.

Have you inspected the attic to see the type of roof construction. If all the cracks are located on the first floor panels, it could be due to poor roof construction. In the roof area there should be diagonal braces running underneath the rafters, on each side of the roof. There should also be diagonal braces running form the ridge linedown towards the ceiling joists.
The purlin supports should be running down to a load bearing panel, and not to ceiling joists.

Regardless of roof type, either trusses or cut roof. these braces would still be used to prevent racking of the roof. Any movement here , would transfer its effects into the panels below.

Am I to take it that the purchase has gone through and that this is academic at this stage.



kadman

Seanie M

kadman wrote:

Am I to take it that the purchase has gone through and that this is academic at this stage.

No! I wouldn't be THAT stupid! Ask all these questions AFTER we have signed the papers? Believe me, all this is worth the time it takes to type it here!

We have our first meeting with the solicitor tomorrow. She received the mortgage approval pack from the bank yesterday. I am trying to see if I can get an engineer out to the house before then via the auctioneer so I can have some sort of structural report to back up OUR part of the contract. No luck yet.

We had a good look through the attic on our second look of the house. No signs of leaks etc. The roof structure seems pretty much as you described it. No loads are on that part of the ceiling. The water tank is a good 10 feet away and on seperate joists anyway (its over the hotpress).

There are no cracks outside. Its a brick faced house, with maintenance free stone-dahed outer, side and back. The rendering seems fine, the lead flashings are tight with the roof tiles, and I can't see any bowing in the roof from the outside to suggest sagging. All that seems to suggest that the site itself is fine. So perhaps the 2 cracks inside are just settling cracks. But why then are they parallel to each other, suggesting settling from either top or bottom, this is where I need the thorough opinion of an engineer.

S.

MorningStar

There is a lot of talk about the plaster board in th ceiling. A common problem that hasn't been mentioned is a bed. Sometimes the position of the bed can appy weight on one or two joists causing a crack. I have seen many houses with cracks in the ceiling in a similar pattern which happens to allign with the end of the bed.

The Wall sounds more serious. The weight of the wall itself can cause this problem if it hasn't been connected correctly.

Seanie M

Well, the part of the ceiling in the kitchen downstairs is under the bathroom, but runs perpendicular to the bath. The joist in question runs from front to back.

The cracks up stairs could actually be caused by this settling, you could be onto something. They all appear at a common point.

rooferPete

Hi Very Intersting,

What you are describing is an early occurance of what will be a common problem in houses all over Ireland in the next ten years.

First there is nothing wrong with nailing plaster boards to the ceiling joist that system is as old as the first plaster board and the scrim based panels that were out for while in the 60's.

Where the problems are going to come from is 600 mm centres, the middle of the board is fine the engineers figures say the the timber will support the weight over the area, so 40 mm thickness is ok until you have the board not centered on the timber.

That is allowing at best 20 mm from the end of each slab to get an equal bite into the joist without breaking the end off the plaster board, anyone who has nailed or screwed an 8 x 4 board over head will know what I mean when I say the board can move more than a little.

Even if a 4 x 2 or the older again 48 x 16 slabs moved or were started off square they did not get a good fixing into the joist (sorry for the imperial measurements they come natural to me).

I think my question would be more along the lines of who made frame rather than who built the house, it is so easy to set up a timber frame business today, think about it, a big enough shed I've seen them in side sheeted hay barns, a good compressor and air line with nail guns and you make your own work tables.

The engineer will calculate what a beam will carry, he will then call up good building practice so he may know 38 mm wide will comply with the figures but not with practical building.

Should a developer ask for the best price for 40 or 50 houses the manufacturer can throw out the practical building guide and work within engineering figures, if he can reduce the thickness from 44 mm to 38 mm and still have a safety margin so he can lower his price per unit.

The fact that the plasterboard will not have enough bearing on the timber is not his problem, the plasterer is on price and will make it work and last long enough until he is paid.

Kadman mentions osb, I know what he means but there different variaties of oriented strand fibre board on the market, from great to as cheap as you can get.

I was asked to look at a very expensive t/f house and give an opinion in the building stage, OSB on the outside panels would have been a luxury, the plywood used would have been rejected for packing cases.

The inside wall panels were off by up to 50 mm over a height of 2400 mm, the carpenter who had put the frame together was present, he was able to show me where he had marked the timbers.

The house was leaning over and it wasn't finished, the reason the problems came to light was the house was a self build and was taking a lot longer than the average t/f house to finish.

Do Not depend on the CIF or Home Bond to be objective in anything to do with members products, the reason I say this is because both organisations are self policing and both stand to lose if they give a negative opinion regarding a fellow member.

How many have actually read the home bond guarantee ? I mean the really small print ? it is set up in a way that they have a limit on the amount they pay out on any one members number of units in a given year.

Part of the difficulty in this case is any engineer or surveyor employed can only view the obvious and submit a report based on their findings, unless they have the very rare permission to open up suspect areas they can only issue an opinion.

I will PM you the contact details of a person I believe who can offer you an objective opinion even it's only verbal at least you will know what you are buying.

The question does arise as to why so many houses in a relatively new development are being sold ?

Maybe I picked the number wrong but I am not surprised that price is increasing, if it didn't they would be the only properties in Ireland today that are going against the national statistics.

.

Seanie M

Thanks Peter,
you've done a good post there. And you have brought to mind ANOTHER thing I was wondering about when you mentioned about permission s to open up a wall etc.
The house is wired for an alarm, but none is fitted. We have looked all over the house, and we can't find the comon point where all those wires come back to! We looked at another house in the same estate, only a few doors down of this one (before we saw this one), and it too was wired for an alarm, with the wires meeting at a bunch coming from the ceiling/wall just behind the front door. The house we're potentially buying hasn't got anywires anywhere coming from the windows etc!!!That leads us to believe they were sunk back into the wall for some reason.

rooferPete wrote:

The question does arise as to why so many houses in a relatively new development are being sold ?

Maybe I picked the number wrong but I am not surprised that price is increasing, if it didn't they would be the only properties in Ireland today that are going against the national statistics.

My guess why they are selling is that they were cheap to start off with, and now profit is being made from them. Its a big reason why we are going for this house, as the M6 motorway will pass less than 2 miles away, allowing you to get to Intel (as an example) in 45 minutes. Imagine the value of the land around there when that opens up...
OR, the vendors are just not happy with them. You see the way estate houseing is going in Ireland - pokey houses, a box room labelled as a bedroom, a fictitious bay window, a 1 car driveway, and no privacy, all for the cost of an arm and a leg - and they're the better houses too.

Thanks for the PM too Peter, input is greatly appreciated folks!



Seanie.

kadman

If you could get the builder to get you a set of tf plans for that house, it would be of major benefit in relating the plans to your survey. You could say that you would be keen on the house , and intend to make some alterations to the living space, but would like to see the panel plans to make sure , you're not affecting the structural integrity of the building, by altering load bearing panels.

Even if you only got the panel layout plans this would help, all panel plans would be better. Or if you could get the tf company details, I would contact them for you to see if they would release a set of A4 panel plans to me.
TF company policy , is that they normally would not release them, but it is worth a try.

You would then be able to pinpoint the load bearing panels, and examine them, for proper construction methods.

kadman