85,000 EU migrants move to Ireland

dathi1

http://breakingnews.ie/2005/05/15/story202569.html
Running a small electrical company in the construction industry is hard work. I suppose it always was. New regulations and formalities on top of home based Gestapo dictats make your hard earned cash rum pretty low. One thing that has really changed recently is the abundance of helpers and non qualified eastern bloc immigrants willing to do anything for €7.65 an hour or with a wink..."I work 5 euro no problem after 6!!!???".... I must admit I have no need to employ helpers at this time as one Irish "helper" is all I need for now. However there does seem to be a catch to all this. A friend of mine has noticed his painting firms job bookings down 90% on this time last year. Tillers seem to be going the same way. Yes they've reaped the rewards of the construction boom since 1994 and have set up house and home and maybe a car or two on this. I'm told an average house hold repaint could be anything from 1000 - 4000 depending on what's done. One quote submitted was rebuffed with "I have a polish guy doing it for 700 euro in the evenings" he said. I remember pre Nice Referendum reading in the business post some IBEC rep saying that we need 50,000 immigrants from accession states to fill the jobs void in the Irish economy. I know some posters here will be glad to see their Irish compatriots sign on at the behest of cheap black economy eastern block labour, but I think the writing is on the wall for a lot of Irish workers on low paid or unskilled work. Needless to say the 110,000 unemployed haven't a hope. Civil servants and entry level state workers may come under pressure too. There again I suppose its their super Union masters SIPTU et al who concocted this whole episode...more subs more power. Harney and Ahern are delighted. Their political fundraisers and big business affiliates are on a major buzz. Arcade2004 come back...all is forgiven
BTW if your Dublin 4 son or daughter is looking for summer work Brown thomas or the Local Golf club to subsidise that college loan forget it.....you overwhelmingly voted yes to Nice.

segadreamcast

dathi1 wrote:

http://breakingnews.ie/2005/05/15/story202569.html
Needless to say the 110,000 unemployed haven't a hope.

The bull that you're spouting is encapsulated in this phrase tbh - the figure of 4% (?) unemployed in this country is considered full employment. Regardless of if we had immigrants or not - these 110,000 people would, most likely, still be out of jobs due to seasonal unemployment, disabilities, being in training or a simple unwillingness to work.

It is simply not a feasible excuse to blame the immigrants for spoiling the economy - they may be undercutting your business, however, they are still paying the same costs in life that you do. They are buying food. They are paying rent. They are undercutting your friends. Why? Well, everybody's aware that the construction industry is disgustingly overpriced and I, for one, am glad to see this happening.

dathi1

yee hooo.. Noel rock
If you're one of the 110,000 unemployed I suppose that's a great comfort.
On the "construction industry" comment u cant compare big buisness building conglomerates with average joe working his ars.e off to pay a mortgage. There again as with others, your glee to see hard working Irish self employed taking a hit and signing on "cos they made a bundle" explains your stance.

Bluehair

In fairness I belief Noelrock hit the nail on the head.

Of all reasons trying to use unemployment figures in a nation of full employment is a joke for all the reasons he mentioned. There are plenty of 'low paid/unskilled' jobs (as you call them) available for those willing or able to do them, and boy are the newcomers willing! (and boy are plenty of Irish unwilling )

Quantum

dathi1 wrote:

A friend of mine has noticed his painting firms job bookings down 90% on this time last year.

No surprise considering the level of overcharging that has been going on for the last several years as they took advantage of the boom and screwed people when they got the chance.

Tillers seem to be going the same way. Yes they've reaped the rewards of the construction boom since 1994 and have set up house and home and maybe a car or two on this. I'm told an average house hold repaint could be anything from 1000 - 4000 depending on what's done. One quote submitted was rebuffed with "I have a polish guy doing it for 700 euro in the evenings" he said.

Sounds fair to me. They got fat when it suited them, and now they have to face up to some real competition.

I remember pre Nice Referendum reading in the business post some IBEC rep saying that we need 50,000 immigrants from accession states to fill the jobs void in the Irish economy.

He was seriously undertstating the need. And our economy would have ground to halt if we didn't get them. It is the availability of these immigrant workers that has sustained our growth, our well paid jobs and our better standard of living.
And I don't know what the references to Nice have to do with. Nice had no affect on any of this. The irish boom had already happened and immigrant workers could already come from EU states at will, in the same way that irish workers flooded into the UK or Germany or Spain when it suited them.

I know some posters here will be glad to see their Irish compatriots sign on at the behest of cheap black economy eastern block labour, but I think the writing is on the wall for a lot of Irish workers on low paid or unskilled work.

There are plenty of jobs for Irish workers. However if the economy slows down then they will have to do what everyone else does, tighten their belts and get on with it. The vast majority of the immigrant workers will go back home, as they basically only come here to make money and help their families at home.

Needless to say the 110,000 unemployed haven't a hope.

They need more than hope. These are the 110,000 that were never going to get a job anyway. If they couldn't get a job in the last five years then they could never and would never get a job at any time in any universe.

Civil servants and entry level state workers may come under pressure too. There again I suppose its their super Union masters SIPTU et al who concocted this whole episode...more subs more power. Harney and Ahern are delighted. Their political fundraisers and big business affiliates are on a major buzz. Arcade2004 come back...all is forgiven

I don't know what that rant was but the biggest winners in ireland over the last ten years have been the Irish people who have had virtually full employment and booming income and standard of living.

BTW if your Dublin 4 son or daughter is looking for summer work Brown thomas or the Local Golf club to subsidise that college loan forget it.....you overwhelmingly voted yes to Nice.

My nephews have had no trouble getting summer jobs this year. Maybe you're talking to the wrong people.

mike65

If the new arrivals were such a strain we'd already be aware of it, meanwhile unemployment level is steady at 4% and the newbies are overwhelmingly in work.

Sounds fine to me.

Mike.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

pete

i only wish i'd had some blacks / asians / eastern europeans to blame when i was one of the 250,000 unemployed back in 1988-1991

WHERE WERE THEY WHEN WE NEEDED THEM MOST?

Dyr

Dont worry Pete they'll still be here whenever the economy goes through the floor and then we'll see the real cost of giving IBEC cheap and exploitable labour

mike65

pete wrote:

i only wish i'd had some blacks / asians / eastern europeans to blame when i was one of the 250,000 unemployed back in 1988-1991

WHERE WERE THEY WHEN WE NEEDED THEM MOST?

So true... kids today, they just expect to tumble out of bed and into a job.

Mike.

ArthurDent

dathi1 wrote:

. A friend of mine has noticed his painting firms job bookings down 90% on this time last year. Tillers seem to be going the same way. Yes they've reaped the rewards of the construction boom since 1994 and have set up house and home and maybe a car or two on this. I'm told an average house hold repaint could be anything from 1000 - 4000 depending on what's done. .

And yet of the 7 tilers I phoned for a quote for tiling a bathroom last week(In Dublin west area, all local companies) - not one was even prepard to quote me ' cos it wasn't worth their while to do such a small job.

Now I'm sure that this is not repesentative of the whole industry, but I find it hard to feel sorry for people who turn their noses up at money. I work for myself and there is no way in hell I'd turn down a day or twos money (at going rate) 'cos the job was too small.

Quantum

Bambi wrote:

Dont worry Pete they'll still be here whenever the economy goes through the floor and then we'll see the real cost of giving IBEC cheap and exploitable labour

It's amazing how we still have the begrudgers and doomsayers... they will never be happy until disaster comes.... and they can find something to point at and say "I told you soooooo !!!"

Cheap labour is essential to any growing economy. Exploitation is subjective and rare in Ireland, thankfully. And thankfully there is no sign that the Irish economy will crash or dive. It will likely slow a little and settle. Immigrants who lose their jobs will move back home and some will stay, keeping wages down and allowing the economy to keep growing nicely.

the_syco

ArthurDent wrote:

And yet of the 7 tilers I phoned for a quote for tiling a bathroom last week(In Dublin west area, all local companies) - not one was even prepard to quote me ' cos it wasn't worth their while to do such a small job.

I higlighted where you went wrong. My father got the bathroom tiled, and he got a "handyman" to do it, whom he found out about by word of mouth. By the way, I'm located in Leixlip, Co. Kildare, just past Lucan.

If you know someone who has gotten a job done recently, find out who did it, and chances are, they'll be able to do it, or know someone who can.

=-=

As for the 85,00 people coming in... I work with about 15 of them, in the local. one is from Poland, two are from Solvakia [spelling?], one is from Romania, 4 from China, and the rest, I don't know. All speak good english (apart from one of the Chinese: but he's learning it), so what the hell.

You want to cut down on the unemployment? You'll have to do something drastic. Such as picking a part of Dublin, which has high unemployment, and stop giving them dole, free houses, let them sink or swim. Stupid, and unrealistic, but its the only way. Leixlip, where I live, was good till a few years back, when the local meat factory closed. Then it was a blackspot for jobs. Then Intel and HP came, and suddenly hundreds of houses are popping up. Are Intel of HP Irish? What, they're foreign? So which foreigners are you going to let in, and which ones are you going to keep out?

You want a job for your son or daughter dathi1? Where? In Brown thomas or the Local Golf club? Whats wrong with the pubs, where your dreaded foreigners are working? Not good enough for ye? Unsocialable hours? Not "socialably accepted" in your area? There are lots of jobs around, maybe they are not what you want, but when you come from a country which pays one third of the salary of here, you'll work in those jobs.

KnowItAll

Quantum wrote:

And our economy would have ground to halt if we didn't get them. It is the availability of these immigrant workers that has sustained our growth, our well paid jobs and our better standard of living. help their families at home.

What about the Romany Gypsies? What do they do? Does the economy need the Polish guys wou got caught with drugs for sale in Cork last week? And what about the Nigerians? What do they do ( except multiply)?

PaulinCork

could a moderator please ban Know-it all?

What do Nigerians do?
In Cork there are doctors from Nigeria, a lot of food shops, hairdressers and internet cafes run by people from Nigeria , and there's a kick-ass Nigerian restaurant on MacCurtain Street.

simu

Indeed, it would appear that s/he knows very little.

Agent Smith

BASIC economic fact...


Once unemploymenmt reaches below 5%, its either people who are between jobs, people who work in Very specialist fields and PEOPLE WHO JUST CANT BE BOTHERED.



Got that from my economics teacher last year....

billy the squid

KnowItAll wrote:

What about the Romany Gypsies? What do they do? Does the economy need the Polish guys wou got caught with drugs for sale in Cork last week?

well if your going to turf the polish drug traffikers out of the country maybe we can send the irish ones with them to where ever it is you want to send them.

And what about the Nigerians? What do they do ( except multiply)?

coming from a family of fifteen kids myself, i can tell you that it was not long ago that people in Ireland did their fair share of "multiplying" and moving to other countries.

The west has been screwing these countries for centuries, its about time they got their fare share of the money floating around the world these days.

@daith1

your friend was screwing his customers, charging ~€2000 for a job that a foreigner could do for €700, he just doesnt want to admit it.

bonkey

dathi1 wrote:

Yes they've reaped the rewards of the construction boom since 1994 and have set up house and home and maybe a car or two on this.

Some non-agreement follows

On the "construction industry" comment u cant compare big buisness building conglomerates with average joe working his ars.e off to pay a mortgage.

Amazing how they start off as people who've set up house and home and a car or two as benefits from a boom, and then they're just average joe's struggling to get by.

In a post or two, will they become almost-destitute victims of something-or-other who are just misunderstood, have never been rich, etc. etc. etc.

If you have a genuine complaint underneath all of it, its that there's enough players in this particular "small Joe" market who are willing to employ people at below minimum wage. Its interesting that its the employees that are blamed though. Its not the Irish man who offers them unfairly low wages....its the foreigner who is willing to accept them. Its not the Irish system which doesn't have the means to actually check up that this is being done....but rather the foreigners who come here and allow Irish people to illegally employ them under the noses of the Irish system which cant police its own.

I am assuming through all of this, of course, that we are talking about wage-points which are below minimum wage. Because if not, then what you're basically complaining about is that employees cost less, and that migrants are offering people a legal way to be more competetive which is biting those who won't match it because they rank something as being more important than capitalist success.

So it would seem that you're either you're blaming the foreigners for the sins of their employers, or you're blaming the foreigners because legitimate competition and capitalism are not socialist enough in nature to suit you.

jc

gandalf

KnowItAll wrote:

What about the Romany Gypsies? What do they do? Does the economy need the Polish guys wou got caught with drugs for sale in Cork last week? And what about the Nigerians? What do they do ( except multiply)?

If I see anymore generalised rubbish like this on here then I will ban you.

QualderWahl

85,000 is a phenomenal amount to have arrived in the past 12 months. Has anyone given any consideration to how we are supposed to integrate a 2% addition to the population in such a short period of time ? If we extrapolate from current figures, how do we attempt to assimliate the continued massive volumes of immigrants from Eastern Europe over the coming decade ?

Don't get me wrong, I have worked with Polish people in Germany and always found them to be honest and hard-working people. However, it is simply not feasible to continue to admit this volume of people into a indigenous population of 4 million. Everyone has approached this issue from a economic perspective ? However, there is a resounding silence on the potential for social upheaval and cultural displacement.

It just seems to me that anyone who dares to suggest that immigration isn't always overwhelmingly positive is immediately shouted down on this forum. Then again, I guess the result of the citizenship referendum indicated how "out of touch" some forum members are with the opinions of middle Ireland.

Zombrex

QualderWahl wrote:

If we extrapolate from current figures, how do we attempt to assimliate the continued massive volumes of immigrants from Eastern Europe over the coming decade?

"Assimliate" them?? We aint the Borg.

As long as we are friendly, interested and open minded to other people an cultures they will have no problem fitting in and being confortable in Ireland. The areas (in the US and Europe) where immigrant cultures stick to themselve and avoid the native society are the areas where the native society is unwelcoming and racist. If we want these people to feel comfortable in our country we are the ones that have to be open to them

QualderWahl wrote:

However, it is simply not feasible to continue to admit this volume of people into a indigenous population of 4 million.

Why not? What happens if we do?

We are a country that should have a population over 14 million. We are in the middle of an economic boom with record low unemployment. For one of the first times in history we need immigrant workers from Europe and the World more than they need us.

QualderWahl wrote:

However, there is a resounding silence on the potential for social upheaval and cultural displacement.

For them or for us?

QualderWahl wrote:

Then again, I guess the result of the citizenship referendum indicated how "out of touch" some forum members are with the opinions of middle Ireland.

The citizenship referendum wasn't about immigration. It was about citizenship tourism.

Calina

Wicknight wrote:

We are a country that should have a population over 14 million.

I'm intrigued. Where is this figure coming from?

Meh

QualderWahl wrote:

If we extrapolate from current figures, how do we attempt to assimliate the continued massive volumes of immigrants from Eastern Europe over the coming decade ?

You are assuming that all the migrants will stay in Ireland permanently. If you look at the behaviour of Irish migrants (returning to Ireland in their hundreds of thousands over the past decade) that's simply not an accurate assumption.

Don't get me wrong, I have worked with Polish people in Germany and always found them to be honest and hard-working people. However, it is simply not feasible to continue to admit this volume of people into a indigenous population of 4 million. Everyone has approached this issue from a economic perspective ? However, there is a resounding silence on the potential for social upheaval and cultural displacement. [/b]

I'm not aware of any "social upheaval and cultural displacement" caused by the ~85k EU immigrants over the past year, can you enlighten me please? What exactly are the social and cultural problems being caused by these migrants? So far in this thread, all we've heard is that "the evil migrants are taking the bread out of the mouths of poor impoverished builders". Which is a bit silly, it's ludicrous to say that builders are hard-done-by in the current construction boom.

uberwolf

Wicknight wrote:

"Assimliate" them?? We aint the Borg.

your facetiuos response re: assimilation is simply denying the fact that historically there have always been difficulties with large immigrant populations. Allow Qualderwahl the benefit of the doubt in that he may be simply arguing that there should be some policy and response - not a wait and see what happens attitude that ends up putting out fires as typically happens in this country.

That this country would have had a population of 14m were it not for the famine (I presume this is what you mean) is completely beside the point IMO. We are where we are. Admittedly we are not looking at overcrowding or anything quiet yet, but our population has swollen by 2% through immigration in a year, this has impacts beyond infrastructural ones.

you very reasonably suggest that 'being open' to immigrants will facilitate their 'assimilation'. However your objection to Qualderwahls terminology hasn't shown through in your arguments. Make no mistake - they do need to be assimilated - you propose this yourself. (see defintion 5). The alternative is the creation of ghettos, racism, etc. By incorporating the population into the whole our society will function better.

@ Qualderwahl - I would suggest that this immediate rush will slow as demand is sated. Thus putting the brakes on it, as it were, will not be neccesary

QualderWahl

"As long as we are friendly, interested and open minded to other people an cultures they will have no problem fitting in and being confortable in Ireland. The areas (in the US and Europe) where immigrant cultures stick to themselve and avoid the native society are the areas where the native society is unwelcoming and racist. If we want these people to feel comfortable in our country we are the ones that have to be open to them".

I agree that we do need to extend the hand of friendship to newcomers to enable them to adapt to this society. However, do you honestly think that Irish people are going to provide that welcome to an infinite number of immigrants ? There is a threshold of tolerance and if this is breached, natives will not be so accommodating to ever increasing volumes of immigrants. You are misguided if you believe that a welcome is unconditional. Incidentially, I believe the onus lies equally on the immigrants to adapt to the millieu in this country as it is on the indigenous Irish to provide a welcome.

"Why not? What happens if we do?

We are a country that should have a population over 14 million. We are in the middle of an economic boom with record low unemployment. For one of the first times in history we need immigrant workers from Europe and the World more than they need us."

Please provide a source to demonstrate that based on past fertility / migration trends, that the current population of Ireland should be 14 million. Personal conjecture or a generic synopsis of the famine will not suffice.

I certainly do not believe that we should be attempting to increase our population to 14 million. Do you think we have the infrastructure to support this population base ? What happens to existing indigenous Irish amongst this population ? Do you believe that this reflects the view of the general public?

"For them or for us?"

For us. 85,000 people is an enormous addition to a population of 4 million. Should these trends continue for the foreseeable future (I am aware that this is a huge assumption) the population structure of this country will be irrevocably altered. I know this probably isn't a huge concern to you, but I am certain that this will impact hugely on Irish identity and culture. Neither you nor I are qualified to speculate at this point whether this change will be positive or otherwise.

Side note: The Netherlands is a country that has permitted large-scale immigration for the past 30 / 40 years. However, there is now a documented phenomeon of native Dutch people fleeing the cities, particularly Amsterdam and Rotterdam to relocate to areas where more ethnic Dutch people live. I perceive this to be cultural displacement of the native Dutch. They no longer feel comfortable in the increasingly multi-ethnic cities, the threshold of tolerance has been brenched with the resultant "white flight". Indeed, there is evidence of increasing international migration of Dutch people to Canada, Australia and NZ.

"The citizenship referendum wasn't about immigration. It was about citizenship tourism."

Agreed. However, one would be very naive to believe that the immigration issue did not play some role in the voting intentions of ordinary people. I personally know 6 or 7 people who voted "Yes" to enact the citizenship law as they perceived it as means to control immigration (which we both agree was not its intended objective).

I really do think that immigration meeds to be discussed rationally in this country. The legimitate fears of many Irish people must be voiced and the electorate must be allowed a say in the volume of immigrants admitted. Failure to address the concerns of ordinary people will ensure that this issue becomes problematic in the future.

The Corinthian

dathi1 wrote:

One thing that has really changed recently is the abundance of helpers and non qualified eastern bloc immigrants willing to do anything for €7.65 an hour or with a wink..."I work 5 euro no problem after 6!!!???"

It’s not really changed; it’s just shifted from Irish citizens on the Dole in the eighties and nineties doing that to non-EU citizens. The black economy predates immigration and exists in most industries - you’ll commonly find Web developers complain about school kids doing Web sites for a few hundred Euro, for example. We even have a word for it - Nixers.

The reason for this has been a culture of tax avoidance, state welfare and cost cutting businessmen - as Yeats described them “fumble upon a greasy till, counting the halfpence ‘ore the pence”. Such labour gets used because these businessmen can get away with unregulated and substandard work. So blaming immigration would be unfair.

Needless to say the 110,000 unemployed haven't a hope.

As has been pointed out, the present level of unemployment is considered close to full employment. In terms of the macroeconomy, there will always be unemployed; most notably structurally (such as those who cannot or do not wish to be employed) and transitionally (those in-between jobs, taking time out).

Wicknight wrote:

As long as we are friendly, interested and open minded to other people an cultures they will have no problem fitting in and being confortable in Ireland.

Unfortunately it does not work like that in the real World. What a lot of bleeding hearts tend to forget is that many foreign cultures are not particularly interested in fitting in and are often as racist as the natives of the country that they have moved to, if not more so. This is the reason that you will still find such practices as arranged marriages or honour killings in second or even third generation immigrant families in some countries.

Assimilation is both a good thing and two way and even the host culture can benefit from adopting some of the immigrant culture, however it doesn’t happen simply because people are friendly, interested and open minded. Sometimes you will need the stick as well as the carrot.

Rev Hellfire

If we dont make a stand against schoolchildren now who knows how many jobs they'll take in a few years ! Its the thin edge of the wedge I tell you.

I think this figure of 2% growth in one year is been somewhat misrepresented, its not as if there's going to be a 2% each year, the numbers rise or fall to match the requirements of the ecomony. The real threat to jobs here is not from workers from abroad working here, but rather the actual work going to their respective home countries. I for one am glad we are in the position to need this influx of workers.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Quantum

QualderWahl wrote:

I agree that we do need to extend the hand of friendship to newcomers to enable them to adapt to this society. However, do you honestly think that Irish people are going to provide that welcome to an infinite number of immigrants ? There is a threshold of tolerance and if this is breached, natives will not be so accommodating to ever increasing volumes of immigrants. You are misguided if you believe that a welcome is unconditional.

The premise of most of your post is flawed, and it's hard not to believe that it is intentionally so.
No one here or elsewhere ever suggested an 'infinite' number of immigrants - so this is clearly a concoction of yours, designed to provoke a negative response.

Incidentially, I believe the onus lies equally on the immigrants to adapt to the millieu in this country as it is on the indigenous Irish to provide a welcome.

I agree 100%. Both sided have a responsibility. But the host population must allow space for the imigrants to make that effort.

For us. 85,000 people is an enormous addition to a population of 4 million.

On what grounds ? I do not see the logic of this statement.

Should these trends continue for the foreseeable future (I am aware that this is a huge assumption) the population structure of this country will be irrevocably altered.

You shot your own point out of the sky. It's not just an enormous assumption, it's a false one. A trend requires at least a couple of pieces of data in a row. We only have less than one year of this number of immigrants and that doesn't make a trend in my book, more a transparent provocation.
Not only is there no trend, but it is obvious to anyone who considers the circumstances and causes of this increase in immigrants that there is a natural limiting factor at work here - the availability of jobs. We had a huge chasm of unfilled jobs in this country and once this chasm is filled the flow of immigrants will, and already are, slowing. The vast majority of these workers come here for one reason - work. When they find no work they are more than eager to go back home. As it happens I don't believe our job situtation has been completely saturated yet. But I believe that the growth is slowing and irish society can accomadate at the very least 100,000 and more immigrant workers.

However we do have to learn from other countries who have experienced this before, and I don't see much learning going on. The immigrant communities find it extremely hard to mix and socialise with the host population, and this kind of mixing happens far too slowly if it is left to chance. Our local authorities and national Gov should be developing local and mational events on a weekly basis that encourage participation of people from both communities, where we can meet each other and get to know each other and learn that they are no so enormously different from each other.

I really do think that immigration meeds to be discussed rationally in this country. The legimitate fears of many Irish people must be voiced and the electorate must be allowed a say in the volume of immigrants admitted. Failure to address the concerns of ordinary people will ensure that this issue becomes problematic in the future.

I agree with this 100% also. That's why we are having this dicussion. Surpression of such concerns will only create a pressure cooker of ignorance and frustration.
We should have an ongoing discussion of immigration issues and ensure that common sense and informed voices are heard far above those of ignorance and irrational fear.

simu

QualderWahl wrote:

Don't get me wrong, I have worked with Polish people in Germany and always found them to be honest and hard-working people. However, it is simply not feasible to continue to admit this volume of people into a indigenous population of 4 million. Everyone has approached this issue from a economic perspective ? However, there is a resounding silence on the potential for social upheaval and cultural displacement.

Yeah, good point. I'm generally in favour of immigration but you're right in saying that we're ignoring potential problems at the moment and assuming naively that everything will turn out well when we should be studying what happens in the newly arrived groups and how they interact with "natives" more closely to avoid future hassle.

One example: I've seen some mention made in the papers of children arriving into junior infants without a word of English. This wouldn't be a problem if resource teachers were plentiful and available to bring them up to scratch but they're not and we could end up with a two-tier system where native speakers of English have a huge advantage over those with little knowledge of the language.

Macmorris

It's interesting that many of the people who are now defending the unrestricted immigration of eastern europeans as being 'good for the economy' were the same people who denounced as scare-mongers those on the anti-Nice treaty side who predicted that this is just what would happen if we voted for the treaty.

I think it's fair to say that the anti-treatyites have been proved right about immigration, we have been swamped. 85,000 is a huge number of people. It's the equivalent to the combined populations of Galway City and Athlone being added to our population in the last year and it's at least five times the yearly number of people who came here during the height of the asylum racket. On another thread I was attacked for comparing the current rate of immigration to the Ulster Plantation, but in the Ulster plantation there was only around 40,000 Scots who settled here, half of the number of immigrants that have come here in the last year. And I know that the population of Ireland was much smaller in the 1600s and so the Scottish settlement had a much greater relative impact than the current immigration, but still, it's worth looking at the problem purely in terms of numbers of people. There is simply no precedent in Irish history for the scale of immigration that we are now having to deal with.

As for the claim that we need this number of immigrants for our economy, IBEC claimed that we needed 40,000 people a year, not 80,000. Are they now going to turn around and admit that we have twice as many immigrants as they themselves wanted?

I think it's pathetic that we tolerate a government that is so arrogant that they will just ignore the views of ordinary Irish people on immigration. The government knew that people's fear over immigration was one of the main reasons that Irish people originally voted against the nice treaty, and yet they still went ahead and became one of the only governments in the EU to impose no restrictions on eastern immigration. They obviously believed that they could get away with it because they knew that they wouldn't be challenged. Unlike other European countries, we have no real organised political opposition to immigration and so the government can have as liberal an immigration policy as the media and big business wants, while at the same time exploiting people's ignorance to preach to us about what's 'good for the economy'.

Zombrex

simu wrote:

Yeah, good point. I'm generally in favour of immigration but you're right in saying that we're ignoring potential problems at the moment and assuming naively that everything will turn out well when we should be studying what happens in the newly arrived groups and how they interact with "natives" more closely to avoid future hassle.

What do you suggest we do?

Zombrex

Macmorris wrote:

As for the claim that we need this number of immigrants for our economy, IBEC claimed that we needed 40,000 people a year, not 80,000. Are they now going to turn around and admit that we have twice as many immigrants as they themselves wanted?

If there aren't jobs for them they will leave ... simply, problem solved ... and will everyone stop talking as if 80,000 a year is going to be repeated for the next 10 years, because that is nonsense. The system reaches equlibruim naturally

Zombrex

Macmorris wrote:

There is simply no precedent in Irish history for the scale of immigration that we are now having to deal with.

And yet, despite nearly 7 years of doomsday predictions by the anti-immigration crowd we are still waiting for the terrible effects of immigration to ... you konw .. start!? What exactly is going to happen again, the Irish economy is going to crash?, there will be riots in the street? AIDS will sky rocket? Crime will go through the roof? White girls will be seen at African discos with black men :eek: !?

When exactly is all this supposed to happen?

All this doom and gloom (immigration will destroy this country) that has been going on for the last 7 years in Ireland and the last 50 years in England, and yet last time I check NOTHING HAPPENED ... :rolleyes:

Quantum

Wicknight wrote:

What do you suggest we do?

One thing that may be a positive thing to do would be to appoint a minister for Immigration and Integration. This minister would co ordinate the study of how other countries have dealt with this issue and what mistakes they made and lessons they learned. They could co ordinate local work to promote integration and socialising between the communities and they could disseminate the kind of education that is clearly need by people like MacMorrise above who are a small minority but make a lot of annoying noise about their fears.
Such a minister would by definition ensure that the subject of immigration is always discussed at thre top table of government.

QualderWahl

@ Wicknight:

I have been correctly berated by "Quantum" for implying that 85,000 immigrants in a 12-month period constitutes a trend. However, my extrapolation was at least based on hard data for a given period.

However, you still have not provided a source to confirm your thesis that the population of Ireland ought to be 14 million today. You must have evidence to back up such an outrageous assumption. It undermines your entire argument.

uberwolf

Wicknight wrote:

And yet, despite nearly 7 years of doomsday predictions by the anti-immigration crowd we are still waiting for the terrible effects of immigration to ... you konw .. start!? What exactly is going to happen again, the Irish economy is going to crash?, there will be riots in the street? AIDS will sky rocket? Crime will go through the roof? White girls will be seen at African discos with black men :eek: !?

When exactly is all this supposed to happen?

All this doom and gloom (immigration will destroy this country) that has been going on for the last 7 years in Ireland and the last 50 years in England, and yet last time I check NOTHING HAPPENED ... :rolleyes:

you had me till you mentioned England. linkee

ArthurDent

simu wrote:

One example: I've seen some mention made in the papers of children arriving into junior infants without a word of English. This wouldn't be a problem if resource teachers were plentiful and available to bring them up to scratch but they're not and we could end up with a two-tier system where native speakers of English have a huge advantage over those with little knowledge of the language.

I'm involved on the management side of a primary school with 56% of pupils whose first language is not english and the biggest problem is not actually with the pupils - every kid in this position receives 2 years of extra tuition with an ESL (English as a second language)teacher and most pupils are doing very well after these two years (with the possible exception of those that arrive in the country much later on than Junior Infants) but the biggest problem that we encounter is that the parents english can be very bad. We have found this especially to be true if they are a family in which perhaps only the dad is working and the mum stays at home and is very isolated, perhaps only speaking with friends from the same country etc. There is very little support for these mums and if language is such a problem integration is next to impossible.

Quantum

Macmorris wrote:

It's interesting that many of the people who are now defending the unrestricted immigration of eastern europeans as being 'good for the economy' were the same people who denounced as scare-mongers those on the anti-Nice treaty side who predicted that this is just what would happen if we voted for the treaty.

Thankfully we won and this immigration is sustaining our growth and keeping our standards of living and employment high. It's a wonderful success.

I think it's fair to say that the anti-treatyites have been proved right about immigration, we have been swamped. 85,000 is a huge number of people. It's the equivalent to the combined populations of Galway City and Athlone being added to our population in the last year and it's at least five times the yearly number of people who came here during the height of the asylum racket.

It seems like a small number fo people to me. Your hyperbole isn't supported by the facts.

On another thread I was attacked for comparing the current rate of immigration to the Ulster Plantation, but in the Ulster plantation there was only around 40,000 Scots who settled here, half of the number of immigrants that have come here in the last year. And I know that the population of Ireland was much smaller in the 1600s and so the Scottish settlement had a much greater relative impact than the current immigration, but still, it's worth looking at the problem purely in terms of numbers of people. There is simply no precedent in Irish history for the scale of immigration that we are now having to deal with.

A precedent isn't necessary. There is no precedent for the wonderful economic boom here in ireland here - does that mean it should have been rejected ? clearly that would be nonsense.
And the negative comparison with the Ulster Plantatio is erroneous and scurrilous. The problem with the Ulster Plantation has absolutely nothing to do with the numbers involved. It had to do the TRANSplantation and the theft of the land.

As for the claim that we need this number of immigrants for our economy, IBEC claimed that we needed 40,000 people a year, not 80,000. Are they now going to turn around and admit that we have twice as many immigrants as they themselves wanted?

They were wrong and vastly underestimated our needs.

I think it's pathetic that we tolerate a government that is so arrogant that they will just ignore the views of ordinary Irish people on immigration. The government knew that people's fear over immigration was one of the main reasons that Irish people originally voted against the nice treaty, and yet they still went ahead and became one of the only governments in the EU to impose no restrictions on eastern immigration.

A terrific decision by the majority of the Irish voters who disagree with you and who have ben proved right all along. The government acted correctly and wisely and now we have an economy that is still growing and expanding and a country where almost no one who wants to work cannot find a job. We also have a country with lots and lots of people from all over Europe and indeed the world, who bring fascinating customs and experiences and languages to our shores. It's bloody great.

They obviously believed that they could get away with it because they knew that they wouldn't be challenged. Unlike other European countries, we have no real organised political opposition to immigration and so the government can have as liberal an immigration policy as the media and big business wants, while at the same time exploiting people's ignorance to preach to us about what's 'good for the economy'.

It's bloody fantastic isn't it. Of course the truth is that most people in Ireland see the benefits and don't agree with your point of view. A point of view that appears to be driven by irrationality and fear.

QualderWahl

Quantum wrote:

One thing that may be a positive thing to do would be to appoint a minister for Immigration and Integration. This minister would co ordinate the study of how other countries have dealt with this issue and what mistakes they made and lessons they learned. They could co ordinate local work to promote integration and socialising between the communities and they could disseminate the kind of education that is clearly need by people like MacMorrise above who are a small minority but make a lot of annoying noise about their fears.
Such a minister would by definition ensure that the subject of immigration is always discussed at thre top table of government.

Quantum, I have one question in relation to your post.

Much of the media and pro-immigration commentary on the development of a multi-cultural, multi-ethnic Ireland indicates that it is a natural and inevitable consequence of the (i) the 21st century and (ii) the transition to a relatively affluent society.

However, if large-scale immigration really is such a "natural" process, why do we need to appoint a government minister to oversee integration? Surely, it is a process that should occur organically on the streets? Similarly, the socialising and intermingling aspect should happen by default without any attempts to socially engineer interaction. As an aside, it is impossible to encourage people to socialise together. People will always revert to the groups with whom they feel most comfortable. God knows, there are plenty of Irish people I would never want to go for a pint with Similarly, any attempt to induce Irish people and immigrants to socialise is doomed to failure.

Why are so many facilitators required to support (what we are encouraged to believe) is such a natural evolution in Irish society?

BTW- I agree that it is beneficial to calmly discuss immigration and it is really necessary that both the pro- and anti- opinions are evaluated equally (assuming that they are not based on hyperbole or conjecture).

mike65

QualderWahl wrote:

@ Wicknight:

However, you still have not provided a source to confirm your thesis that the population of Ireland ought to be 14 million today. You must have evidence to back up such an outrageous assumption. It undermines your entire argument.

Far be it for me to guess Wicknight on this but I think he/she's extrapolating from Ireland pre-faimine and how the population would have grown had a million not died and another million not emigrated. After all many in that 2 million would have had childen and those children would have had children and so on to the present. Also the post-independence economy would proberly have been stronger with a larger population so fewer would have leftto seek work. 14 million is bound to be a very rough educated guess but not unreasonable.

Mike.

QualderWahl

mike65 wrote:

Far be it for me to guess Wicknight on this but I think he/she's extrapolating from Ireland pre-faimine and how the population would have grown had a million not died and another million not emigrated. After all many in that 2 million would have had childen and those children would have had children and so on to the present. Also the post-independence economy would proberly have been stronger with a larger population so fewer would have leftto seek work. 14 million is bound to be a very rough educated guess but not unreasonable.

Mike.

Hi Mike65,

I agree. Wicknight's extrapolation is a VERY rough guess. The problem with such guess work is that it is frequently entirely inaccurate. e.g. Refer to the Government / IBEC data for the expected volume of post-accession immigrants v the actual

Macmorris

Wicknight wrote:

What exactly is going to happen again, the Irish economy is going to crash?, there will be riots in the street? AIDS will sky rocket? Crime will go through the roof? White girls will be seen at African discos with black men :eek: !?

When exactly is all this supposed to happen?

Around the year 2050.

uberwolf

Macmorris wrote:

Around the year 2050.

could you limit your input to contributions please.

gurramok

Quantum wrote:

But I believe that the growth is slowing and irish society can accomadate at the very least 100,000 and more immigrant workers.

Just a snippet...For the present 85,000 and another 100,000, where are they going to live ?
There is a severe housing shortage already and the vast majority of new houses\appts that are being built are snapped up by long stay mortgage repayers and investors.
I can see how investors would accomodate some of the newcomers as tenants but would all of the newcomers be renting out from landlords ?
Just curious as I thought that property would be far too expensive to afford and rent is sky high for everyone.
Most of the newcomers would be in the low pay bracket plus sending some of their money back to their home countries especially if they are short stayers (assumption)
Can someone explain ?

pete

gurramok wrote:

Just a snippet...For the present 85,000 and another 100,000, where are they going to live ?
There is a severe housing shortage already and the vast majority of new houses\appts that are being built are snapped up by long stay mortgage repayers and investors.
I can see how investors would accomodate some of the newcomers as tenants but would all of the newcomers be renting out from landlords ?
Just curious as I thought that property would be far too expensive to afford and rent is sky high for everyone.
Most of the newcomers would be in the low pay bracket plus sending some of their money back to their home countries especially if they are short stayers (assumption)
Can someone explain ?

Given that I don't recall tripping over "85,000" johnny foreigners sleeping rough on my way to work any time over the last 12 months, i'd imagine they're living in their houses.

Just a guess, mind.

Cork

It is a grat thing we are attracting people. Years ago many Irish had no choice but to travel to take up some pretty poor jobs.

I know that there are issues concerning intergration but when you look at the change in this county since the awful 1950's or 80's - I think intergration etc should not be insormountable.

Karl Hungus

Wicknight wrote:

What exactly is going to happen again, the Irish economy is going to crash?, there will be riots in the street? AIDS will sky rocket? Crime will go through the roof? White girls will be seen at African discos with black men !?

When exactly is all this supposed to happen?

Macmorris wrote:

Around the year 2050.

...? What the hell are either of you talking about?

For one, AIDS is skyrocketing! Just look at this, and this. Relatively speaking, that's a huge increase, so while we're certainly not competing with spain for figures, it's pretty shocking none the less.

Macmorris

uberwolf wrote:

could you limit your input to contributions please.

I was being serious.

2050 is the year that the indigenous Irish people are set to become an ethnic minority in this country. Wicknight wondered when many of the problems that anti-immigrationists have predicted are going to happen. I think the year 2050 would be a fair prediction.

oscarBravo

gurramok wrote:

Just a snippet...For the present 85,000 and another 100,000, where are they going to live ? ... I can see how investors would accomodate some of the newcomers as tenants but would all of the newcomers be renting out from landlords ?

...as opposed to renting from whom, exactly? If houses are being bought, someone's living in them - whether they're owners or tenants.

Macmorris wrote:

2050 is the year that the indigenous Irish people are set to become an ethnic minority in this country.

You have, of course, either a reputable source or a proven methodology to back up this assertion?