Nothing like a bit of enthusiasm, but ....

Banjo013

..... sometimes I think the Guards take it a little too far.

Was done the other day for stopping in a yellow box. Driving behind a truck at the time, lights were green and looked like I was getting through, however I couldn't see beyond the truck of course and it slammed on just at the far side of the yellow box ..... I got stranded in the middle of it.

This opportunist little guard was standing on the footpath waiting to cross the road. Immediately he makes straight for my car, looking like he had just seen some fella beat the crap out of a young girl .... never felt like such a criminal in my life with this little p***k. I didn't even block the junction - because the truck pulled away again almost immediately and the lights were still green. The enthused little guard however wasn't having any of that common sense.

What's your opinion - was I hard done by ? Because I certainly think I was.

hawkmoon269

If your car was stationary on a yellow box then it was probably a fair cop to be honest!

ando

ack, I hate it when people block junctions because they dont look ahead, but since you weren’t obstructing any traffic I'd say you were hard done by

pontovic

never move into a box unless there is enough space between the end of the box and the car ahead to fit your car into. i got stung for that too and i just do that from now on

mike65

What is it with so many ppl that if they get caught its only cos of an officious cop but otherwise its good policing? Don't enter a junction box unless you KNOW you can clear it. Simple enough.

Mike.

madmorphy

Serves you right the yellow box is there for a reason,if your light went red you would have been blocking traffic from another direction.No sympathy whatsoever !

Banjo013

Jesus are you all cops or something ???

Go back and read my post again. Tell me SPECIFICALLY how I posed a danger to other road users or obstructed anyone else ON THAT occasion. My light was still green by the time the truck pulled away and I was only stopped there for literally 2 bloody seconds !!!!!!!!!!

And tell me also why the cop didn't use his discretion on the scene having clearly seen a truck slam on the brakes right in front of me ? And more still - why did he feel the need to treat me like I had just robbed an armoured van full of cash ????

mike65

The Yellow box is marked for a reason, that you were in it for "2 seconds" or not blocking traffic is actually besides the point. You can feel hard done by and you can feel the cop was going "off on one" but thats life. Had you been
keeping your distance from the truck (bearing in mind you must have known you were approaching a traffic light junction) the incident would not have occured.

Mike.

BTW if the truck driver did slam on the brakes then the fact you were so close to him should be another lesson to you.

AMurphy

Banjo013 wrote:

..... sometimes I think the Guards take it a little too far.

Was done the other day for stopping in a yellow box. Driving behind a truck at the time, lights were green and looked like I was getting through, however I couldn't see beyond the truck of course and it slammed on just at the far side of the yellow box ..... I got stranded in the middle of it.

........
What's your opinion - was I hard done by ? Because I certainly think I was.

Debatable and unfortunate;
However, there is the requirement that to enter the yellow box, you need an exit, which because you may have been driving too close to the vehicle in front could not determine if you had an exit or not.
Every junction about here has an invisible yellow box, so one could get a ticket at any and every junction for that event.
Because of the "right on red" rule, it can cause a bit of aggro in very slow moving traffic. Why, cause when there is a hole on the opposite side to mive forward, the "right on red" car immediately takes it.
Though my wife did argue successfully she had no option in such an event and the cop should have directed traffic rather than simply hand out tickets.

It's a hangin' offence should a car in an adjacent lane shoot forward, cross over and take the open spot ("your spot") ahead of your lane.

Is this a "points" fine?. Not here.

Phryxus

I reckon the garda was being too enthusiastic, if it was actually a case of a couple of seconds then surely if you had driven really slow over the yellow box you wouldn't have had to stop ( not that you should have bothered ). It seems like bad timing and a garda who was having a bad day to me.

JohnCleary

What or how exactly were you 'done' .... Did he give you a verbal warning? Thats NOT being 'done' ... Thats a slap on the wrist

Banjo013

JohnCleary wrote:

What or how exactly were you 'done' .... Did he give you a verbal warning? Thats NOT being 'done' ... Thats a slap on the wrist

I got an on the spot fine and a very rude "talking to" .... I think that qualifies as being done.

Not a points offence thankfully - at least not yet. If it were every driver in Dublin would have a few points by now.

That's an interesting thought actually. I wonder if points were being doled out for this offence what kind of public backlash there would be .... and how quickly would the tide of public opinion turn against the guards ... even more so.

Padraig Mor

Banjo013 wrote:

I got an on the spot fine and a very rude "talking to" .... I think that qualifies as being done.

Not a points offence thankfully - at least not yet. If it were every driver in Dublin would have a few points by now.

That's an interesting thought actually. I wonder if points were being doled out for this offence what kind of public backlash there would be .... and how quickly would the tide of public opinion turn against the guards ... even more so.

Despite being a bit of a stickler for the rules, I think you were kinda hard done by. Having said that though, I think handing out points for such offences (as opposed to 'dreadful' offences such as speeding) would be a good idea as it might teach people in this country to drive properly!

unkel

Take into consideration all the points that were made and you know damn well yourself that you shouldn't have stopped in a yellow box

That said, I feel you were hard done by especially since you would have been stopped for a few seconds only without Garda interference

causal

Was it really only 2 seconds? How long was the junction box?
You'll know better next time - but the trick would be to keep moving at a slow pace - that way you don't have to stop on the box junction
Also, if it was an option, you could have pretended you were taking a right turn - then you're entitled to stop on the box junction

I'm not condoning stopping on box junctions as a rule, but if you're story is 100% true then I'd say a slap on the wrist would do.
Also as AMurphy pointed out in the situation where right-turners continuously hog the box junction - sometimes the only way is to move forward onto the box junction and take a place.

causal

JohnCleary

I remember answering the question "when can ya go into a yellow box" during my test... I repled "When your takign a right turn OR when its safe to do so" ... I think that was teh correct answer?

Why didnt ya just say "I thought it was safe to do so"

RicardoSmith

Basically it used to the rules in Ireland were a little slack. However these days you really have to follow the letter of law. Such is life. Is not the Ireland of 10yrs ago. Maybe take it as lesson learnt.

BrianD

Bit over enthusiatic of the Garda who should have been observing your movement in the context of the overall movement of traffic at that junction. Some junctions can require a motorist to move swiftly after the preceeding vehicle in order to maintain the traffic flow.

Balfa

Banjo013 wrote:

Jesus are you all cops or something ???

Maybe if you reacted so obnoxiously when you were talking to him too, that would explain why he gave you such a hard time. You threw this out for discussion. Don't get upset when there are two sides to the debate.

AMurphy wrote:

Every junction about here has an invisible yellow box, so one could get a ticket at any and every junction for that event.

Technically, every junction in Ireland has a a yellow box, too. Because if you stop in it, and end up obstructing the flow of traffic, that's ticketable. The yellow boxes are just there as a reminder at serious junctions, just like the silly "do not block intersection" signs at some junctions here in Dallas.

JohnCleary wrote:

I remember answering the question "when can ya go into a yellow box" during my test... I repled "When your takign a right turn OR when its safe to do so" ... I think that was teh correct answer?

No, it's when you're turning right, or when the box is there for the purpose of you, in a minor road, to enter a major road. That second case ends up with a similar situation AMurphy was talking about with the right-on-red thing, where people in a side street can keep entering the main street because they have right of way, and you may never get across the junction. Oh well

The General

Banjo013 wrote:

..... sometimes I think the Guards take it a little too far.

Was done the other day for stopping in a yellow box. Driving behind a truck at the time, lights were green and looked like I was getting through, however I couldn't see beyond the truck of course and it slammed on just at the far side of the yellow box ..... I got stranded in the middle of it.

This opportunist little guard was standing on the footpath waiting to cross the road. Immediately he makes straight for my car, looking like he had just seen some fella beat the crap out of a young girl .... never felt like such a criminal in my life with this little p***k. I didn't even block the junction - because the truck pulled away again almost immediately and the lights were still green. The enthused little guard however wasn't having any of that common sense.

What's your opinion - was I hard done by ? Because I certainly think I was.

No you werent hard done by you were stupid and im happy you got done, you should have waited til there was space the far side of the box then drove through it :rolleyes:

BrianD3

The thing people forget about yellow box junctions is that you cannot enter them unless your exit is clear even if you are turning right. Eg turning right at a crossroads from a main road into a minor road - if the road you are turning into is clear you can enter the yellow box and wait for a break in oncoming traffic. If the road you're turning into isn't clear then you can't enter the yellow box. The same principle applies in all cases eg turning left or right out of side roads, turning left or right from main roads. Also, box junctions do not alter right of way as some seem to be suggesting. Vehicles coming from side roads must still give priority to vehicles on maion roads, even if the vehicles on the main road have entered the box junction without having a clear exit.

causal

BrianD3 wrote:

The thing people forget about yellow box junctions is that you cannot enter them unless your exit is clear even if you are turning right.

Not always true. If you are turning right onto the box junction (e.g. from a minor onto a major road) then you can sit on the box junction - as long as you don't block traffic in another lane (e.g. if there are two lanes on the road you turned onto).
This is the situation referred to earlier where a stream of cars pull onto the hatch from the right - and the people going straight don't get a chance to move forward.

causal

BrianD3

causal wrote:

Not always true. If you are turning right onto the box junction (e.g. from a minor onto a major road) then you can sit on the box junction - as long as you don't block traffic in another lane (e.g. if there are two lanes on the road you turned onto).

But the fact remains that you can't ENTER the box junction if your exit is blocked eg chock full of stationary traffic. You may wait in the box for a gap in moving traffic but if there is gridlock in whatever lane you want to drive into then you can't. What may happen is that gridlock may occur *after* you've moved into the yellow box in which case you're OK.

This is the situation referred to earlier where a stream of cars pull onto the hatch from the right - and the people going straight don't get a chance to move forward.

I may have picked it up wrong but I though the previous posters were talking about a different thing. Both of these posters are based in the States and mentioned it in relation to the "right on red" rule. No such rule over here but a similar principle applies when turning *left* at junctions without traffic signals. So really we're talking about left turns here rather than right turns. And what happens is, traffic from side roads turns left into box junctions while mainline traffic on the far side of the box junction waits for their exit to clear which it never does as anytime the exit becomes clear the left turning traffic is a lot closer to it so fills it instantly.

causal

BrianD3 wrote:

But the fact remains that you can't ENTER the box junction if your exit is blocked eg chock full of stationary traffic.

Yes you can - in the instance I previously described. It's illustrated in the ROTR - see the bottom illustration in the attached image (page30 of 1992 ROTR).

I may have picked it up wrong but I though the previous posters were talking about a different thing. Both of these posters are based in the States and mentioned it in relation to the "right on red" rule. No such rule over here but a similar principle applies when turning *left* at junctions without traffic signals. So really we're talking about left turns here rather than right turns. And what happens is, traffic from side roads turns left into box junctions while mainline traffic on the far side of the box junction waits for their exit to clear which it never does as anytime the exit becomes clear the left turning traffic is a lot closer to it so fills it instantly.

Yes (and no) to what you described - because it does also occur with cars turning right from a side road - e.g. when the junction is governed by traffic lights.

For example: I am first at traffic lights going straight - but I can't enter the box because the exit is not clear. Then my lights turn red. I wait. The traffic beyond the hatch then moves along - and the cars from my the sideroad on my right make their ight turn and take up the free space beyond the hatch and then fill back onto the hatch itself (as they are entitled to do). Then my light turns green - but I can't go because the hatch is full. I wait for the hatch to clear - but before it does - my lights have turned red again. etc. etc. In this case I simply have to make a move onto the hatch.

causal

Balfa

BrianD3 wrote:

What may happen is that gridlock may occur *after* you've moved into the yellow box in which case you're OK.

Quite wrong (and this is from an irish point of view, where I learned to drive :P). You may certainly enter a box regardless of exit if you are intending on turning right or if the box is there for the purpose of you joining a more major road, just like i said in my previous post. It certainly is not okay (except in the two exceptions i've just noted above) to enter a box and then get stuck in it because gridlock happens *after* you've entered. Simply, you cannot enter unless you know you can get out of it without stopping. Not having the simple anticipation and awareness to figure out that traffic will stop you getting out *after* you've entered is no excuse whatsoever.

I may have picked it up wrong but I though the previous posters were talking about a different thing. Both of these posters are based in the States and mentioned it in relation to the "right on red" rule.

You certainly have picked it up wrong. To illustrate what i said in my last post (again in relation to driving in ireland), consider the first diagram in causal's attached image. Imagine a car coming into view from the west. It is allowed to enter the box, with the intention of turning left, and pull up behind that northbound, silver car that's stopped just after the box. When traffic moves forward one carlength, the silver car will be off the top of the picture, and our imaginary car will move into its place. In this situation, there will still be no room for the poor black car at the south end to pull up and close the gap without blocking the yellow box, so the next car entering from the west can again pull into the box as it has the temporary right of way because of the stopped traffic (i.e. the yellow box DID alter the right of way as I had been suggesting). In theory, this can continue indefinitely and the black car will never legally be allowed to continue.

edit: I know that you're not supposed to turn left into the right-hand lane, but let's pretend there is no left lane in that picture, and the white car doesn't exist.

BrianD3

causal wrote:

Yes you can - in the instance I previously described. It's illustrated in the ROTR - see the bottom illustration in the attached image (page30 of 1992 ROTR).

It may illustrate that but it doesn't state it It states that you can enter a box junction when turning right only if your exit is prevented by oncoming traffic or by other right turning vehicles. Which is the point I was making. If there is already traffic in the lane you are driving into, then you cannot enter the box as that traffic is neither oncoming traffic nor right turning traffic.

However the third diagram appears to contradict the text. The third diagram shows a vehicle waiting in the box junction when turning right even though its exit is not prevented by either oncoming vehicles or right turning vehicles. A possible explanation is that this diagram is showing what you *shouldn't* do - notice the caption "a word of warning..." beside it.<edit> just looking at it again I don't think this is the case. I think the illustration is telling you what you *should* do. Therefore there's a contradiction between the statements and the illustrations.

Yes (and no) to what you described - because it does also occur with cars turning right from a side road - e.g. when the junction is governed by traffic lights.

For example: I am first at traffic lights going straight - but I can't enter the box because the exit is not clear. Then my lights turn red. I wait. The traffic beyond the hatch then moves along - and the cars from my the sideroad on my right make their ight turn and take up the free space beyond the hatch and then fill back onto the hatch itself (as they are entitled to do). Then my light turns green - but I can't go because the hatch is full. I wait for the hatch to clear - but before it does - my lights have turned red again. etc. etc. In this case I simply have to make a move onto the hatch.

The right turners shouldn't enter the box unless they can see that the exit is clear (as described above). Therefore if there is one or more right turners sitting in the box while they wait for the traffic to move in the lane they are driving into, they are in the wrong.

Balfa wrote:

Quite wrong (and this is from an irish point of view, where I learned to drive :P). You may certainly enter a box regardless of exit if you are intending on turning right or if the box is there for the purpose of you joining a more major road, just like i said in my previous post. It certainly is not okay (except in the two exceptions i've just noted above) to enter a box and then get stuck in it because gridlock happens *after* you've entered. Simply, you cannot enter unless you know you can get out of it without stopping. Not having the simple anticipation and awareness to figure out that traffic will stop you getting out *after* you've entered is no excuse whatsoever.

If you read over it again you'll see I was talking about right turns i.e the expections you mentioned. You enter a box and your exit is clear but you cannot turn because of oncoming traffic. You wait in the box but then 5 of the oncoming cars decide they're going to turn left. The road you want to drive into is now gridlocked and there's nothing you can do about it. You have done nothing wrong as per the rules of the road in this case. However if you do what you have suggested and enter the yellow box "regardless of exit" when right turning, then you most certainly have broken the rules of the road.

causal

BrianD3 wrote:

It may illustrate that but it doesn't state it

Look at the bottom illustration again. It says that you can stop on the junction as long you don't block oncoming traffic. i.e. in the bottom illustration the black car at an angle with his indicator on is entitled to enter the junciton knowing that his exit his blocked and he is allowed to sit on the junction - BUT - the red car to the East cannont - because to do so would block the traffic lane coming from the North.

N.B. In practice anyone who drives in heavy traffic knows that the red car waiting to the East would in fact enter the junction and wrap-around to the South of the Black car already on the junction - thereby not blocking traffic from the North and keeping the traffic flowing (from the East, if not from the South )

causal

BrianD3

causal wrote:

Look at the bottom illustration again. It says that you can stop on the junction as long you don't block oncoming traffic. i.e. in the bottom illustration the black car at an angle with his indicator on is entitled to enter the junciton knowing that his exit his blocked and he is allowed to sit on the junction - BUT - the red car to the East cannont - because to do so would block the traffic lane coming from the North.

N.B. In practice anyone who drives in heavy traffic knows that the red car waiting to the East would in fact enter the junction and wrap-around to the South of the Black car already on the junction - thereby not blocking traffic from the North and keeping the traffic flowing (from the East, if not from the South )

causal

OK fair enough, that is what the caption states and is what the illustration is supposed to show. But at the top of the page there's the statement about when you are allowed to wait in a yellow box when turning right. I still maintain that this appears to contradict both the illustration and the caption beside the illustration.

prospect

sounds like an unfortunate circumstance alroght.
I have witnessed many, many blatent infringements of the yellow box, ten times more deserving of a kick up the hole...

causal

BrianD3 wrote:

OK fair enough, that is what the caption states and is what the illustration is supposed to show. But at the top of the page there's the statement about when you are allowed to wait in a yellow box when turning right. I still maintain that this appears to contradict both the illustration and the caption beside the illustration.

The text at the top* doesn't contradict the bottom illustration - it's just describing a different scenario.

*this text at the top:
"However, it is permitted to enter the box when you propose to make a right turn and are prevented from doing so only by oncoming traffic or vehicles waiting to make a right turn"

The text at the top is reffering to a vehicle coming from the South and turning right.
The illustration at the bottom is referring to a vehicle coming from the East and turning right.



causal

BrianD3

causal wrote:

The text at the top* doesn't contradict the bottom illustration - it's just describing a different scenario.

*this text at the top:
"However, it is permitted to enter the box when you propose to make a right turn and are prevented from doing so only by oncoming traffic or vehicles waiting to make a right turn"

The text at the top is reffering to a vehicle coming from the South and turning right.
The illustration at the bottom is referring to a vehicle coming from the East and turning right.

Nope. Look at the way the page is laid out. Clearly, the text at the top is a description of the general rules which must be obeyed when negotiating box junctions. If this text only refers to certain illustrations and not to others, then why isn't it in the captions beside the relevant illustrations. It isn't - because it's meant to be a general rule which applies to all the illustrations on the page

Nowhere on that page does it state that there's somehow a different rule for turning right from a side road and turning right from a main road. Even the caption beside the "turning right from a side road illustration" doesn't tell you what you should do, it just warns you not to block traffic which has the right of way. The illustration does show a car entering the box which has a blocked exit but it's not explicitly stated in words that this is allowed plus the impression given by the illustration is in contradiction with the general text at the top of the page.

This is getting extremely tedious now so I'm bowing out Think I've made my point. I may not be right about the correct procedure for yellow boxes but if I'm not then it's because IMO there is a clear discrepancy in the ROTR.

causal

Fair enough, but tbh it's perfectly clear to me what to do in each scenario, except...

Balfa wrote:

To illustrate what i said in my last post (again in relation to driving in ireland), consider the first diagram in causal's attached image. Imagine a car coming into view from the west. It is allowed to enter the box, with the intention of turning left, and pull up behind that northbound, silver car that's stopped just after the box.

Balfa, just to go back to this point. While your description above agrees with my understanding - the ROTR doesn't make specific reference to this scenario. The fact that it isn't specifically mentioned makes me think that perhaps it's not permitted. Do you know of a reference supporting the left turner from the West being permitted to stop on the junction?

causal

shagman

Rent the movie "Bad Lieutenant" ....after watching you may feel that you got away lightly. . Next time keep your eyes OFF the road and on the footpaths watching out for the blue meanies. Unfortunately I do believe boxing them square in the mush is frowned upon by the courts. I blame the parents.