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Aren't You?
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10-05-2005 10:03pm#1
I'm extremely tired of people, particularly women, saying, "I'm not a feminist, but..."
Aren't you? Why not? What's wrong with being a feminist? I'm a feminist and proud - and straight to boot. And I love men. In fact, the vast majority of my close friends are men. And my partner is probably a more rabid feminist than I am.
If you're not a feminist, explain why.Are you a believer in the advocacy of equal rights for women; i.e., a feminist? 54 votes
Yes0%No100%
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54 votes
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Back to the kitchen woman!!!!!
I'm a guymbut I'm all for equality with the (weaker) opposite sex. In fairness, women have the right to demand the same rate of pay as men in the business world, or any other field where they do the same work at the same standard.
you go girl0 -
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NoSure, off that definition I'm a feminist. But does my objecting to areas of inequality where women are favoured make me a malist?
I think society is probably as equal as it's ever been. There are areas where men have the edge and others where women have the edge. Nowadays the problems come from the femnazis who seem to refuse to believe reality.0 -
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NoMike - I hold doors for men and women too. It's good manners - nothing to do with gender roles.
I wuz being a little bit flip.
I think CathyMoran pretty much said it - just be human. I recall the 70s masculinist movement (yes its exisited!) which pretty much got laughed out of court as it seemed like such an obvious femenist counter, but sometimes when I "tune in" to the propaganda about how awful men are in soap opera, magazine features, interviews etc I think maybe we need a movement. But then I snap out of it.
Interestingly feminist gets over 9 million hits, masculinist get just 43,000 and no definition link in opera.
Mike.0 -
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Join Date:Posts: 10361
I think my problem is that, as has been highlighted already, the word "feminist" carries too much baggage. Which is unfortunately likely to happen to pretty much any movement that picks up enough popularity, because there's always going to be diverse interpretations of any given set of ideals and a diversity of opinions on how to best achieve them.
As such, I'd prefer to be asked what my views are than to put myself into a given box, either positively or negatively (and it's also why I'm not voting on the poll. Give me a "sort of" option and there I'll be
). The word "feminist", regardless of its precise definition, carries with it as many associations of hard-line feminists as it does utopian opinions. It, strangely, doesn't evoke the suffragette connotation so much, although I suspect that's because it's only barely within living memory any more.
For the record, though, I don't believe human society would have been particularly better off if there had been female dominance instead of male dominance. I don't think any sort of inequality is the way to go, really.0 -
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NoI believe that feminism as defined is:
1) Embracing womanhood
2) Embracing equality between the sexes
3) Defending the rights of oppressed women
Needless to say, I want to see men, too, embrace their manhood, men embrace equality, and I would happily fight for the rights of oppressed men, too. For example, the fact that women automatically receive custody of children is an example of inequality towards men, and I would support a fair analysis in each individual case.
What I want to know is why anyone would *not* support any of what is outlined in my post above. Feminism is not letting your armpit hair grow and burning your bra (although - if you want to that, why not? ). Feminism by its nature is against inequality amongst the sexes, and that goes both ways. 0 -
Join Date:Posts: 10361
neuro-praxis wrote:I believe that feminism as defined is:
1) Embracing womanhood
2) Embracing equality between the sexes
3) Defending the rights of oppressed womenneuro-praxis wrote:What I want to know is why anyone would *not* support any of what is outlined in my post above. Feminism is not letting your armpit hair grow and burning your bra (although - if you want to that, why not? ). Feminism by its nature is against inequality amongst the sexes, and that goes both ways.
Two things:
1)Your definition above would have to include "defending the rights of oppressed men" (laughable a notion as it sounds, it still happens in some cases such as custody of children or the entitlement to paternity leave) before it could claime to be truly against inequality between sexes. Although I suspect that this ties in with my point in 2), which is;
2)Feminism by its very name must have a driving interest in the female aspects of the points you have described above, otherwise you'd be talking about something like "peopleism" (not "humanism" because that's an entirely different movement, just to confuse things). It's a bit of a dualistic ideal, which is I suspect how the dominant view of "feminist=feminazi" came to be. I wholeheartedly endorse any move to achieve equality between the sexes, in much the same way as I would be in favour of any move to get equality between pretty any two given groups. I'm just not comfortable, for example, putting myself in the same category as Germaine Greer, because I honestly don't believe that we would have the same priorities or objectives. (One of the things I remember being disappointed to find out was that, at a speech she gave to the Oxford Union back in the day, a male student asked if there was anything he could do to assist the feminist movement. The reply he got was an exasperated stare coupled with the statement "It's not about you").0 -
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I think Fysh (and a few others) makes the point there that pretty much sums up my view. "Feminist" implies fighting solely for the rights of women. Not a problem, not a bad thing at all, but by its very definition is unequal. It deals with women's rights, an issue which I think is no longer relevant in our own society. All society can do is give Women the means by which to claim their rights, they can't force them on everyone. That is, there is nothing society can do to force Company A to employ a qualified woman, all they can do is provide the woman with the means to claim her right to not be discriminated against.
I think, in our own society (I'm definitely not talking about a world stage here) Women have much more scope and ability to claim their rights than men do, both from a moral and legislative POV. We're in a post PC transition at the moment, waiting for the rights pendulum to slow down and balance out.
Put simply, I'm not a feminist. I don't believe in fighting for the rights of women. I beleive in fighting for the rights of all people equally. Sex is only one way to discriminate. Unfortunately "Humanist" doesn't have the correct meaning here
[Edit: That's possibly another angle Phil. Radical feminism has been the cause of a lot of sexual discrimination against men. Discrimination that both sexes find distastful. I get praise for letting my gf watch TV while I clean the kitchen. Not that praise isn't wanted, but why should it be assumed that I wouldn't do it normally?]
I didn't vote because the poll is public.0 -
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I think the issue here is more pedantry than anything elseThe term feminist makes no assurtion about your views with regard to any other group, including men. Basically what we're arguing is - If you're a member of Set A ("equalists") and Set A is a subset of Set B (Feminists), are you correct to say that you're a member of Set B? I don't think so, it doesn't provide the correct information. 0 -
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God damn pussyEvil Phil wrote:On that note Talliesin - the traditional male image, that of the *strong*, isolated male who's emotional range is limited to lust and anger has become little more than a cliche. Sounds like a miserable lonely existence to me. We should thank feminism for this. 0 -
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Noseamus wrote:I think the issue here is more pedantry than anything else Basically what we're arguing is - If you're a member of Set A ("equalists") and Set A is a subset of Set B (Feminists), are you correct to say that you're a member of Set B? I don't think so, it doesn't provide the correct information.
It has been suggested at feminists are not, by definition, interested in "equality" for all people, only women, because you never see feminist organisations campaigning for male issues. That assumption is illogical. I am saying if you are a feminist that information makes no assurtion either way to your views of other issues, including male rights. Some feminists might not give a hoot about male issues, others might be very interested in it.0 -
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NoThe major problem for me when I read through this thread is the idea that because feminism seems to support "only" one cause, it cannot be supported.
I support the "Make Trade Fair" campaign, and the "Make Poverty History" campaign. If I worked on the basis that they are not fighting for all causes and all rights, then I would have to reject them. But this is ludicrous.
To address the_syco with your toilet analogy (somebody call the analogy police! ):
The situation more accurately described with feminism would be that, initially, the men own all of the three toilets. The response of the feminist is to seek one and a half of those toilets. Does this make sense? The feminist does not wish to *have more* than men, or *be superior* to men, but to *have the same rights and respect*.
I am sorry, but I do not accept that we are equal in Ireland. We are *more* equal, but we are not quite there yet. If we are there, then can anyone explain to me why at your avergae extended Irish family gathering, the women do all of the cooking, serving and cleaning, while the men chat, drink, and watch television?
Now, it is true to say that nobody is forcing these women to do this. But for them to say, "We demand that the men play an equal role" will mean a small social revolution must take place within the family. And instead of the men adopting a new attitude of equality, more than likely it would prove to be a once-off.
Now I realise that there are many men who strive to perform equally: my partner is one of them. Hell, he even bakes cakes for a course we run. But *in my experience* when it really comes down to it, the women are still cooking and cleaning and serving when it moves beyond simply a couple scenario.
The phenomenon of the glass ceiling: the issue, Sleepy, is less that women are being robbed of promotions, and more that women lack the ambition to move upward. This is the glass ceiling phenomenon. If women lack this ambition, we have cause to ask why. Also, they are categorically paid less.
Here are some facts and figures, thanks to http://learningpartnership.org/facts/human.phtml.
* Women are often denied voice or power over the most fundamental human decisions, such as whether and when to bear children, to get an education, or to go to work.
....Education
* 855,000,000 people in the world are illiterate. 70% of them are female.
* Two-thirds of the world's children who receive less than four years of education are girls.
* For every year beyond fourth grade that girls go to school, family size drops 20%, child deaths drop 10%, and wages rise 20%; yet, international aid dedicated to education is declining.
* Worldwide, more than half the population of women over age 15 cannot read or write.
* Girls represent nearly 60% of the children not in school.
* Even when women have equal years of education, it does not translate into economic opportunities or political power.
* While women in Nigeria enjoy 53% literacy, in Morocco 34%, and in Palestine 77%, their participation in politics and the economy lag far behind.
....Health & Family
* Worldwide, women suffer greater malnutrition than men.
* 600,000 women -- one every minute -- die each year from pregnancy-related causes. Most of these deaths are preventable.
* As children, girls are often undervalued, fed less, and given inadequate healthcare.
* Parents in countries such as China and India sometimes use sex determination tests to find out if their fetus is a girl. Of 8000 fetuses aborted at a Bombay clinic, 7999 were female.
* In the Global South, women traditionally eat last and least. They do not get more to eat even during pregnancy and nursing.
* Nearly half of all people living with HIV/AIDS are women and girls.
* 510,000 children under the age of 15 died of HIV/AIDS in 1998. Today, almost 1.2 million children under the age of 15 are living with HIV/AIDS.
* In some countries, the HIV/AIDS infection rates for 15- to 19-year old girls are 3 to 6 times higher than for boys.
* Every day 7000 young persons are infected with HIV/AIDS.
....Work
* Worldwide, women's work in the home is not counted as work.
* 90% of the rural female labor force are called "housewives" and excluded from the formal definition of economic activity.
* Women work-- on average and across the world-- more hours than men each week, sometimes as much as 35 hours more, but their work is often unpaid and unaccounted for.
* Where women do the same work as men, they are paid 30 to 40 percent less than men.
* There is no country in the world where women's wages are equal to those of men.
In the U.K., Italy, Germany, and France women are paid 75% of men's wages, whereas in Vietnam, Sri Lanka, Tanzania, and Australia women earn 90% of men's wages.
* Women produce nearly 80% of the food on the planet, but receive less than 10% of agricultural assistance.
* In most places in the world, work is segregated by sex. Women tend to be in clerical, sales and domestic services, and men in manufacturing and transport.
* Women occupy only 2% of senior management positions in business.
* Women's participation in managerial and administrative posts is around 33% in the developed world, l5% in Africa, and 13% in Asia and the Pacific. In Africa and Asia-Pacific these percentages, small as they are, reflect a doubling of numbers in the last twenty years.
....Human Security
* Wars today affect civilians most, since they are civil wars, guerrilla actions and ethnic disputes over territory or government. 3 out of 4 fatalities of war are women and children.
* Over the past decade, armed conflict has killed 2 million children, disabled 4 to 5 million, left 12 million homeless and more than 1 million orphaned or separated from their parents.
* In times of conflict, women and children are sometimes sold into forced servitude and slavery.
* 75% of the refugees and internally displaced in the world are women who have lost their families and their homes.
* In the former Yugoslavia, 20,000 women and girls were raped during the first months of the war.
* In the last decade there were about 300,000 child soldiers.
* There are approximately 250 million child labourers worldwide: Asia accounts for 153 million and Africa for 80 million.
....Law
* Historically women have been denied the knowledge, the means, and the freedom to act in their own and their children's best interests.
* The majority of the world's women cannot own, inherit, or control property, land, and wealth on an equal basis with men.
* In the 1990s, only 13% of national lawmakers in the world were women, increasing just marginally from 11% in the 1970s.
* The Philippines' Anti-Rape Act of 1997, which took 9 years to pass, expanded the definition of rape making it a public criminal offense.
STILL AWAKE?
And to Gordon - this site will both clarify and correct what I said regarding how much women work and get paid - http://www.payequity.net/factsheet/factsheet.htm
I said 80% of the work for 10% of the wages - these figures say 66% of the work for 5% of the wages.
Specifically to Seamus: you who feel that affirmative action is no longer necessary in Western society, take a gander at this - http://www.aauwofva.org/library/myth.htm
I hope that this has been less boring than informative.0 -
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seamus wrote:believing that women were better than men, with believing that women deserved more than men for their troubles
this is the problem for me, well how i see it at any rate.
Much like "Girl Power" It was more about belittling Men then empowing women.
I don't make judgements on peoples Sex/Sexual orination/colour of skin/religion .. and of that malarky.. i base my judgements on experence with that person or situation.
The biggest problem i have is that now days when the word Feminist is used people automaticly think : butch lezzer, or closet Lezzer ... for me i just cringe inside becuase i know that i will be hearing about how men have had it so go for so long that it's only right that women get a bit of payback.
This is the whole frigging point... it's not about payback, it about equality...
this has stuck with me and coloured my judgement some what :
i was walking down a hallway in some college, and i held open the door for the person behind me ( about 4 - 6 ft behind) as i turned around to see what was keeping them i noticed it was a woman ( not a bad looker) and she started calling me a a sexist pig and slapped me full force in the face. To say i was in shock was a understatement. Now i wasn't about to slap her back ( even though i was well within my right imo) so i did the next best thing .. i closed the door , so it's now between use and i wouldn't let her open it , she would then have to walk back down where we had come from and find another way.
There is no reasoning with these sort of people ... what i did was not being sexist , it was being a decent person , i held open the door for the preson behind me.
Anways .. yes i'm a feminist ( i support womens rights , and equality) but i'm just trapped inside a mans body .
Heard this from the internet and it's bloody true.
A woman will never be equal to a man untill they can walk down the street with a blad head and beer belly and still think they are sexy :eek: 0 -
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