Luas B1 extension to Cherrywood

mollser

Is there any update on this at all? The council are smacking the developers for levies to fund it, but theres not much news coming out.

Are there any maps of the proposed route for it, from Sandyford all the way to its terminus at Cherrywood? This is all i've found so far... http://members.boards.ie/victor/carrickmines3.gif

cheers

BrianD

I take it the outline in blue is the remains of the castle?

mollser

yeah, i think it is - drove around there the other day and it looks fairly well demolished at this stage!

am more interested in the route the luas will be taking from its current terminus around to Ballyogan road, ie where it crosses the m50, where it the stops at the Gallops are etc

weehamster

You might find this interesting.
Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council, Bray Town Council and Wicklow County Council are looking into the possibility of the Luas Green line extenstion to Cherrywood, continuing on to north Bray.

Click Here

The study will develop proposals for new roads, improvements to existing roads, new publictransport services, new cycle routes, new pedestrian footways and road safety improvements. In conjunction with the Railway Procurement Agency (RPA), the study will also examine options for extending the existing LUAS Green Line into the Bray Environs Area from its proposed terminus at Cherrywood. The focus of the study will be to ensure that the area can continue to develop without transport constraints, and in a manner which supports the development of the new residential areas as successful community areas with relative ease of access to Bray Town Centre as a neighbouring destination for work, schools and shops.

BrianD

Would that not be pushing the limitations of tram transportation? That's a long route for a tram to cover. Surely the solution would be to run more feeder buses to Bray or even build a tram network in that area feeding into Bray? Granted, the latter is unlikely to happen.

murphaph

BrianD wrote:

Would that not be pushing the limitations of tram transportation? That's a long route for a tram to cover. Surely the solution would be to run more feeder buses to Bray or even build a tram network in that area feeding into Bray? Granted, the latter is unlikely to happen.

While I would ordinarily agree Brian, this might be different. We don't want any more Tallaght lines! If the extenson to Bray was a continuation of the highly segregated Green line then I'd be ok with that. People traveling to the city centre can travel to Bray (DART) or directly to town on a slower tram. The distance the tram runs is not that important, so long as it is free from traffic interfaces which can muck up the timetable. It's an interesting one though. Perhaps the DART should be extended from Bray to Stillorgan!!!!

BrianD

I just see the point of the long run with tram vehicles that are designed for short-medium commutes. The longer the run the more justification for bigger capacity vehicles which means you'll be getting into heavy rail territory. Even if the line was extended and upgraded to heavy rail, would it make sense to terminate another line in Bray?

Sounds like property developers trying to justify their developments by using the "we'll bring the Luas down here" mantra. The Cherrywood extension is a reasonable project as is a spur to the west. However, we are getting into a situation where there is no masterplan for any sort of transport infrastructure and we will end up with ad hoc projects (like the airport metro) of "add ons" to existing modes of transport that will lead to a next to useless system in the future. Like the RPA metro project there must be a firm NO to this one.

The answer to this transport problem is simple - buses. Routes that will feed back into Bray with a link to Cherrywood but a link that will not act as a feeder service for commuters.

Victor

BrianD wrote:

I take it the outline in blue is the remains of the castle?

As indicated in an Irish Times map, the actual remains were more extensive (as one may have realised ).

There is a map available form the council which details the proposed route and the contribution zone. But I think they charge €10 for it.

http://www.dlrcoco.ie/planning/DevPlan04/Chapter11.pdf

Read parargrph 11.3.3 in particular and from 11.3.8 onwards.

The suggested stops are
(a) Line B1 - Central Park, Glencairn, The Gallops, Leopardstown Valley, Ballyogan Wood, Racecourse, Carrickmines, Laughanstown and Cherrywood
(b) Line B2 - and to continue to St.Colmcille’s (Loughlinstown), Shankill and Shanganagh/Woodbrook.

I think one of the Platform 11 had a small scale map marked up.

hawkmoon269

Incidentally I saw two guys in Luas uniforms doing some measuring in the city centre today, near Georges Street. Wonder if they are starting to plan a link-up between the two lines?

enterprise

Interesting.

MrPudding

hawkmoon269 wrote:

Incidentally I saw two guys in Luas uniforms doing some measuring in the city centre today, near Georges Street. Wonder if they are starting to plan a link-up between the two lines?

I saw about 10 of them at the roundabout in Cherrywood a couple of months ago.

MrP

MarkoP11

hawkmoon269 wrote:

Incidentally I saw two guys in Luas uniforms doing some measuring in the city centre today, near Georges Street. Wonder if they are starting to plan a link-up between the two lines?

If people are looking into this it would be the RPA, not Luas staff who are connex and have little or no control over expansion plans. You would imagine fairly precise maps already exist for the city centre area, you would also assume the details from the original aborted linkup would still be on file.

At least they are meassuring up unlike the famous Gareth Fitzgerald statement about Dawson Street, he never actually measured up. 18m radius is the sharpest the trams can take if anyone is crazy enough to measure themselves

sceptre

In conjunction with the Railway Procurement Agency (RPA), the study will also examine options for extending the existing LUAS Green Line into the Bray Environs Area from its proposed terminus at Cherrywood.

And then to Greystones and on to Wexford. Go LUAS!

jlang

The guys I saw out surveying in Sandyford about two weeks ago (at the roundabout behind Woodies just up from the Luas stop) were definitely wearing Iarnrod Eireann orange waistcoats. Confused me too but could they have got them from their previous employer? Or maybe they were there for some completely different reason.

murphaph

jlang wrote:

The guys I saw out surveying in Sandyford about two weeks ago (at the roundabout behind Woodies just up from the Luas stop) were definitely wearing Iarnrod Eireann orange waistcoats. Confused me too but could they have got them from their previous employer? Or maybe they were there for some completely different reason.

Perhaps they're going to take back the Harcourt alignment in a pincer movement from the rear! :eek:

The Sisco Kid

mollser wrote:

am more interested in the route the luas will be taking from its current terminus around to Ballyogan road, ie where it crosses the m50, where it the stops at the Gallops are etc

The following link may help. There's a very small picture at the top (there used to be a larger one) of the Sandyford junction looking eastwards and it also shows the luas going under the the M50..

http://www.mcos.ie/mcos/Mainpages/projects2/roadsandbridges/lrtoverbridge/lrtoverbridge.htm

MarkoP11

jlang wrote:

The guys I saw out surveying in Sandyford about two weeks ago (at the roundabout behind Woodies just up from the Luas stop) were definitely wearing Iarnrod Eireann orange waistcoats. Confused me too but could they have got them from their previous employer? Or maybe they were there for some completely different reason.

The line south of Sandyford should still be in the ownership of CIE property (note thats not Iarnrod Eireann). The RPA have very limited in house ability to perfrom any work and rely on 3rd parties to perfrom a lot of work. Iarnrod Eireann are afterall the only railway civil engineer outfit in Ireland and have dug the RPA out of a few tight spots over the last few years

Victor

Dayglo vest mean nothing about

MarkoP11 wrote:

The line south of Sandyford should still be in the ownership of CIE property (note thats not Iarnrod Eireann).

No, under the old railway acts, the local council has first refusal on defunct railways, otherwise it reverts to adjacent land owners.

MarkoP11 wrote:

The RPA have very limited in house ability to perfrom any work and rely on 3rd parties to perfrom a lot of work. Iarnrod Eireann are afterall the only railway civil engineer outfit in Ireland and have dug the RPA out of a few tight spots over the last few years

Actually Iarnrod Eireann also sub-contract a lot of their pure civil engineering work (excavation, bridges, etc.), although they retain the core railway engineering capabilities.

ad hoc

On the RPA website, under the Luas->Railway Orders section, there is a hidden link to the railway order for the Sandyford to Cherrywood extension.
From the information on the page it looks as if the RPA are to apply for a Railway Order this month. The page also has links to detailed maps of the proposed line.


http://www.rpa.ie/?id=256

P.S. Found the link by Googling the site.

mollser

ad hoc, you are an genius, thank you, even more than i was looking for

i notice the plans were due to be submitted this month, i wonder have they??

weehamster

ad hoc wrote:

On the RPA website, under the Luas->Railway Orders section, there is a hidden link to the railway order for the Sandyford to Cherrywood extension.
From the information on the page it looks as if the RPA are to apply for a Railway Order this month. The page also has links to detailed maps of the proposed line.


http://www.rpa.ie/?id=256

P.S. Found the link by Googling the site.

Interesting, but the links to the maps dont work.

mollser

weehamster wrote:

Interesting, but the links to the maps dont work.

yeah they do, click in normally, then you've to right click on area 13,14,15 and save target as...

SeanW

sceptre wrote:

And then to Greystones and on to Wexford. Go LUAS!

Very funny

But from what I've been hearing about the Rosslare line, trams might actually be an improvemenmt :rolleyes:

weehamster

mollser wrote:

yeah they do, click in normally, then you've to right click on area 13,14,15 and save target as...

Yes I did that but it just saves a web page as a html file.

Can you please give the direct link to the pdf files. Thanks.

BTW, good find.

Zaph0d

http://www.rpa.ie/upload/documents/Area%2013.pdf
http://www.rpa.ie/upload/documents/Area%2014.pdf
http://www.rpa.ie/upload/documents/Area%2015.pdf
http://www.rpa.ie/upload/documents/Area%2013p.pdf
http://www.rpa.ie/upload/documents/Area%2014p.pdf
http://www.rpa.ie/upload/documents/Area%2015p.pdf

robfitz

(Area 13) Poor people in 27 Woodford, Leopardstown are going to lose about a third of there garden and a garage. The curved bridge over the roundabout on Leopardstown Road is a bit weird.

(Area 14) Ballyogan Road, more bloodly cycle paths "cycle tracks".

BrianD

How close is the route to the original Harcourt-Bray alignment?

Victor

BrianD wrote:

How close is the route to the original Harcourt-Bray alignment?

The red line is the original route, the deviation is from the current Sandyford stop to the proposed / original Carrickmines stop.

Very few people live near the original alignment.

BrianD

Victor wrote:

The red line is the original route, the deviation is from the current Sandyford stop to the proposed / original Carrickmines stop.

Very few people live near the original alignment.

Apart from the residents of Foxrock who would no doubt compalin about commoners passing by their homes. In fact, either the racecourse or some of these homes have already annexed the old rail line as fas as I can see. It would make sense for Foxrock village to be on the line (the stop could serve the racecourse as well).

enterprise

The extension to Cherrywood will serve the racecourse - there will be a stop on the line which will only open on race days. Plus an added benefit is the line will run on the right side of the couse, behind the stands. As far as I recall looking at old pictures of Foxrock station people had to walk across the course to gain access to the station from the stands.

Overall, routing the line via Ballyogan is a sensible decision as it has a greater population density than Foxrock will ever have.

weeslip

Those links are dead, and i cannot locate them on the rpa website. If anybody has them i would appreciate a pm or something.

Cheers

seagizmo

Hey,

anyone downloaded the pdf's?

It seems they have taken them down. Can someone who has them PM, thanks

SG

MrPudding

seagizmo wrote:

Hey,

anyone downloaded the pdf's?

It seems they have taken them down. Can someone who has them PM, thanks

SG

I have them but you are looking at 20 odd MB. Send me a PM with you email address and I will send them if you want.

MrP

weehamster

How did the RPA find out that we were looking at theses maps? Is the RPA looking at this site or P11 site?

MarkoP11

weehamster wrote:

How did the RPA find out that we were looking at theses maps? Is the RPA looking at this site or P11 site?

Yes the RPA do read the message boards, I know that for a fact on the P11 board would you blame them ?

At 21.8 Mb in total that would swallow a lot of bandwitdh on a website which normally is only a handfull of images. Looked like an unfinished page anyway which should not have been visible

weehamster

I suppose so, they didnt even have the Red line extension on line. :rolleyes:

Mocrie14

A friend of mine is part of the legal team involved in the extension to Cherrywood and he's been saying for the past 6 weeks that an announcement is imminent....

Victor

Bazbu wrote:

A friend of mine is part of the legal team

Maybe he shouldn't be talking and neither should you.

Victor

I've complied the various sections of vertical alignment, it does get quite steep in places - between 1/19 and 1/20.

The summit creates a bit of a problem, as I've shown in the comparitive sections. Access to Glencairn (house, the former British ambassadors residence) and Glencairn Estate means either level crossings as proposed or dropping the alignment by at least 5-6m (tram size + cabling + bridge deck / beam depth), which means cut and cover tunnel to stop the little dahlings throwing bricks down on the trams.

Victor

I've done a commentary that I'll post up later, but I think the Stillorgan - Central Park section is a little misguided, it could be a lot straighter and include a stop (elevated!) at Burton Hall Road.

trentv

Is there any chance of getting images from the PDFs and posting them, i'd love to see this proposed line. How come there are so many files and they are so big what do they all contain, are they just maps or are they surveys etc. too?

MarkoP11

trentv wrote:

Is there any chance of getting images from the PDFs and posting them, i'd love to see this proposed line. How come there are so many files and they are so big what do they all contain, are they just maps or are they surveys etc. too?

The total package is
Environmental Impact Statement

Drawings
Alignment (have as 13/14/15.pdf)
Structures
Property (have as 13p/14p/15p.pdf)

Draft Railway Order
Book of Reference

Once the minister signs the order the public have a right to the view all this and obtain copies, at the moment by accident it appears we only have alignment and property

They are very detailed line drawings they don't scale down well to jpg or gif files, straight lines and small text don't work well in images, pdf files draw the lines based on maths so everything is smooth and detailed. I've tried it and the result is 2mb jpg files for each single page. These are most likely orignally A0 size so at A4 they become difficult to read

The pdfs can be downloaded from the P11 Photo, Map and Graphics Archive thread on platform11.hyperboards.com There is some further details on which plans are which there and which areas are which.

If the line passes near your property or indeed requires the purchase of private land a full copy of plans will the served on that person

weeslip

any time frames for completion yet.

D'Peoples Voice

weeslip wrote:

any time frames for completion yet.

I'd imagine the commencement date is close to the election date in 2007,
and the completion date will be close to the election date in 2012.
That's just a hunch

If memory serves me correct the original luas lines suffered a similar date syndrome
supposed to commence in 1997, the year of the election,
and to be completed by 2001-2002, the year of the next election

Victor

My comments

Comments on my comments?

spacetweek

Victor wrote:

Comments on my comments?

An extension from Bride's Glen to Shanganagh is indeed on the cards in a future extension. It isn't really needed now as it would only be used by people at Bray and south of there heading for green line stations. I suppose they prob'ly should have thrown it in, though.

A new DART station will be built where the LUAS will join it. This station was going to be called Shanganagh in the RPA's Platform For Change but DLRR county council are referring to it as Woodbrook now.

Presumably the LUAS line would then be extended alongside the DART line as far as Bray. No info on this though.

MarkoP11

If they were going to go to Shanagangh they would be going there now as part of B1. There are serious engineering difficulties in getting from Brides Glen to Shanaganagh there is only 2 motorways a road overbridge and a few private and commerical properties and a ESB line in the way, the viaduct itselfshould be fine. But of course Shanganagh is a green field. To run into Bray would be tricky and serve little use, infact you would have to cross the Dargle and go west of rail line closer to the rather narrow main street, that is unless you CPO Bray Wanders foorball ground

There is some talk of an extension, that is well founded however where it is going (and how it gets there) is a little more up in the air

Victor

MarkoP11 wrote:

There are serious engineering difficulties in getting from Brides Glen to Shanaganagh there is only 2 motorways a road overbridge and a few private and commerical properties and a ESB line in the way, the viaduct itselfshould be fine.

Bride's Glen stop is between the 2 motorways, so you only need to cross one "extra" motorway. The trick would actually to put the Luas under the roundabout on the motorway spur between Laughanstown Interchange and the Wyattville interchange. It means more cutting, less viaduct and a much kinder slope down to Shankill.

Continuing all the way to Bray doesn't make a whole lot of sense unless you continue it past Bray station, otherwise its just duplicating infrastructure. Going as far as north Shankill means you can connect in both directions, i.e. Dalkey - Cherrywood, as well as Bray - Stillorgan.

Victor

Note this suggests that a total of 37.5km of Luas could be built without further tendering, based on the tender of B1.

http://www.etenders.gov.ie/search/search_show.aspx?ID=NOV047892

Title: IRL-Dublin: urban railway works
Published by: Railway Procurement Agency
Publication date: 09-Nov-2005
Application Deadline:
Notice Deadline Date: 12-Dec-2005
Notice Deadline time: 16:00
Notice Type: Tender
Has Documents: No
Abstract: Title attributed to the contract by the contracting entity: Luas 400
Infrastructure.
Design of, construction and commissioning of the infrastructure, power
supply and control systems for a 7,5 km light rail line. This work will
be carried out under a design and build form of contract. This package
does not include package B1_100 Highway & Utilities and B1_300 Structures
which are separately advertised. As an option it is envisaged that there
may be a requirement for approximately 30 km of additional light rail
lines in various phases. As a further option the authority may award a
contract for the maintenance of the infrastructure.
CPV: 45234120, 45220000, 50220000.

TrickyRicky

MarkoP11 wrote:

If they were going to go to Shanagangh they would be going there now as part of B1. There are serious engineering difficulties in getting from Brides Glen to Shanaganagh there is only 2 motorways a road overbridge and a few private and commerical properties and a ESB line in the way, the viaduct itselfshould be fine. But of course Shanganagh is a green field. To run into Bray would be tricky and serve little use, infact you would have to cross the Dargle and go west of rail line closer to the rather narrow main street, that is unless you CPO Bray Wanders foorball ground

There is some talk of an extension, that is well founded however where it is going (and how it gets there) is a little more up in the air

everyone seems to be against the idea of a luas to Bray, saying buses will be more than sufficient. The fact of the matter is that CIE have been saying that for years and services are still slow and inefficient, and that people from Bray need more commuter links to integrate more with the rest of Dublin, rather than always being passed over in favour of "sites to be developed" like Cherrywood and Woodbrook. Bray needs a luas in the town, and the development of the Dundrum-style town centre by 2010 should provide more incentive, and a great location for a terminus, adjacent to the old town centre, and not too far from the propose DART luas-link/station at Woodbrook

TrickyRicky

Here's a map showing what I'm talking about.