Advice on starting a poker club/society in Limerick

NickyOD

I've been thinking a long time about what I can do to improve the poker scene in Limerick. The tournaments that are in place here are are terrible and what's worse is they are growing and growing and the people who travel to them are completely oblivious.

Now I had thought about starting my own games, and had an experienced director in place but to be honest I really don't want the responsibilty and prefer to just play. I'm not in it for financial gain other than the possibilty of winning tournaments. I'm in it for the good of poker and I want to get poker out of its adolescent stage in this town like it already has in the other cities and towns around the country.

So it occurred to me that setting up another tournament that was open to the public is the wrong way to go. I dont particularly want to play poker with boozy-over-aggressive-any-2-cards-can-win-gamblers. I want to play poker with people I can learn from, so maybe something like apoker club/society is the way to go.

I have a venue available to me for free on Sundays from 7 (Sallyport bar, upstairs). At the moment I only have enough quality clay chips for a 20 player tournament. It will not be an advertised tournament, just a meeting, posted on the forums and spread by word of mouth to the few decent players I know and whoever they want to bring. The idea being that we start a club, with reg fees for tournament going back into the club for chips, cards, tables, supplies, road trips and whatever else we need. The purpose of the society would be to have an atmosphere where people can play well organised tournaments, (no cash games) and earn the game.

The problem is I don't know the laws governing this sort of society. I've never set up a club and I don't know the red tape involved in setting up the accounts for it. I can set up a website, membership cards, and all our events would be IPPC compliant.

Are there any similar clubs around te country and if so can anyone give me some advice.

N.

Culchie

Nicky,

I should be able to get you a copy of a 'club constitution', that is what is required here I'd say.

I am chairman of a share investment club, a gang of us from work throw in a few quid every month, so you should be able to 'find and replace' the document, and edit it to your needs.

PM me if you don't get sorted out in the meantime.

Culchie

NickyOD

Culchie wrote:

Nicky,

I should be able to get you a copy of a 'club constitution', that is what is required here I'd say.

I am chairman of a share investment club, a gang of us from work throw in a few quid every month, so you should be able to 'find and replace' the document, and edit it to your needs.

PM me if you don't get sorted out in the meantime.

Culchie

Cool. Is it available on the web?

ionapaul

To be honest, as mooted here several times in the past, an Irish Poker Players Organisation or similar is needed in this country, assuming the current level of interest (still growing, as far as I can see) doesn't completely disappear overnight a year or two down the road. Regional societies / clubs could be run under the auspices of this national organisation, all singing from the same hymn sheet, making the organisers' (such as Nicky in Limerick) lives easier and better managing people's expectations. The interested layman would also be more likely to attend an event ran by an national body, rather than a stand-alone club or society.

The above thoughts don't really help you much, Nicky, but I think that such a national foundation would make your plans so much easier if it came to pass.

Culchie

No, but it should be on my lap top at home as a word document.

PM me your e-mail address, and I'll forward it to you over the weekend, I'm sure it is on the laptop.

I got a buddy in Ennis who would be interested in joining, not a bad player, but no patience .... needs some training !!

NickyOD

ionapaul wrote:

To be honest, as mooted here several times in the past, an Irish Poker Players Organisation or similar is needed in this country, assuming the current level of interest (still growing, as far as I can see) doesn't completely disappear overnight a year or two down the road. Regional societies / clubs could be run under the auspices of this national organisation, all singing from the same hymn sheet, making the organisers' (such as Nicky in Limerick) lives easier and better managing people's expectations. The interested layman would also be more likely to attend an event ran by an national body, rather than a stand-alone club or society.

The above thoughts don't really help you much, Nicky, but I think that such a national foundation would make your plans so much easier if it came to pass.

What would it take to set up such a national body? Is there one in place in the UK or anywhere else? With the growth of poker and the push on for Poker becoming an olympic event you would think something like this is inevitable.

http://poker.sportinglife.com/News/story_56727.shtml

http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_magazine/archives/showarticle.php?a_id=12376&m_id=25

jem

Nicky,
I would assume that you would just set up your club. would be no harm to draw up some basic rules,
Name of club:nickys card club
membership: who can join anyone proposed by an existing member,
How to expel a member :
membership fee say €20,
aim of club: to play cards, teach and promote,
Agm each year.
election of officers at agm.
who can sign cheques: sugest 3 names must be 2 signing

You could use the basics of this gaa club and change it to suit.

If you want to register the name details are here

With regard to opening bank account you get the form from the bank and fill it in, you will need the rules , id for the people with signing authority.
If you need further info contact me.
best of luck.
BYTW the game in kilmurry has been closed down!!!, excuse casino starting in limerick objected to the cops.

NickyOD

jem wrote:

BYTW the game in kilmurry has been closed down!!!, excuse casino starting in limerick objected to the cops.

Thanks for that. I heard it was raided. The casino in Limerick doesn't even have a cardroom so I don't know how they can complain, but I heard they were moving to a larger venue. Have you heard anything about the casino opening a cardroom yet?

Culchie

Thanks Jem, you've saved me a task.

That is perfect for a club membership.

jem

NickyOD wrote:

Thanks for that. I heard it was raided. The casino in Limerick doesn't even have a cardroom so I don't know how they can complain, but I heard they were moving to a larger venue. Have you heard anything about the casino opening a cardroom yet?

As I said the excuse was due to the casino.
if i here more I will let you know.
james

doc71

There is a huge market for a card club in limerick...huge

Culchie

Who'll be the first UTG in Limerick?

doc71

Utg

Culchie

Under The Gun (first to act)

dexem

Hi all,
long time reader, first time poster.
I would be very interested in joining a poker club in Limerick. I'm not much of a player, normally play online in very low limit games, but I have played one or two €20 tournaments in the Merrion before I moved to Limerick.

As regards playing, the reason the proposed game in the Davin was shut down was pretty much that it was illegal. The Limerick Post covered it in a front page article: http://www.limerickpost.ie/dailynews.elive?id=6280

The basis behind it being closed down (and I presume the game in the Kilmurray) is that it is effectively illegal to gamble on a licensed premises which I guess is why the Merrion (and I presume the Fitz) don't serve alcohol.

I suppose if you keep the whole thing quiet, you might fly under the radar, but don't count on that as legal advice.

Cheers.

NickyOD

dexem wrote:

Hi all,
long time reader, first time poster.
I would be very interested in joining a poker club in Limerick. I'm not much of a player, normally play online in very low limit games, but I have played one or two €20 tournaments in the Merrion before I moved to Limerick.

As regards playing, the reason the proposed game in the Davin was shut down was pretty much that it was illegal. The Limerick Post covered it in a front page article: http://www.limerickpost.ie/dailynews.elive?id=6280

The basis behind it being closed down (and I presume the game in the Kilmurray) is that it is effectively illegal to gamble on a licensed premises which I guess is why the Merrion (and I presume the Fitz) don't serve alcohol.

I suppose if you keep the whole thing quiet, you might fly under the radar, but don't count on that as legal advice.

Cheers.

I thought if it was a tournament and there are no cash games happening there was no problem. Sure there is alcohol served at the IPT events, and I'm certain they haven't had to buy any sort of additional license. There are even gardai playing them. If the gardai are going to shut poker tournaments down because its "gambling" then they should shut down every single sporting event that charges an entry fee and gives out cash prizes. 5 a side soccer tournamants, snooker tournaments, whatever. It is EXACTLY the same. I don't want to have to fly under the radar. I want everything to be above board.

NickyOD

"Poker games in licensed premises are illegal under Sect 9 of the Gaming and Lotteries Act 1956,” he explained. "Poker games are only legal of the promoter is not gaining any profit from them"

If I don't make any profit and the money goes back into the club, then do I get around this?

Culchie

Nicky,

I think if you are setting up a club, and people sign up as club members, and you have a constitution, and members sign and agree to the constitution, then I don't think you will have a problem.

That's why anyone going to the card clubs has to register first before they can play ... they are members of a club.

Any gains are made by members, and I'm sure this is OK


P.S Isn't a fecking disgrace that they don't spend more time trying to clean up the streets, drug dealers and all the rest of the criminals and leave the card players in peace. Another soft touch for the guards !! Saves them doing any real work

NickyOD

I guess I'll have to talk to the gardai. I don't understand how pokerevents doesn't come under the samne category. Fintan?

Hitman Actual

"Poker games in licensed premises are illegal under Sect 9 of the Gaming and Lotteries Act 1956,” he explained. "Poker games are only legal of the promoter is not gaining any profit from them"

That quote is interesting... I hope all the other shady operators around at the moment get crushed as well; there seems to be a good few scumbags out there.

Nicky, would you not just be setting up as a private members club, similar to the casinos (without the premises, obviously). Whatever way it works, best of luck in getting it off the ground.

Culchie

I think the typical guard wouldn't have a clue, he'd just interpret the ' lottery act of blah blah blah ' .... he wouldn't have a notion.

Ask someone like Fintan.

Sure isn't a share club making money or at least trying to? A racehorse syndicate ?

Culchie

oh ..... and while I'm ranting



What about every pub in the West of Ireland that runs a "25's" game one night a week ???

NickyOD

lenny_leonard wrote:

"Nicky, would you not just be setting up as a private members club, similar to the casinos (without the premises, obviously). Whatever way it works, best of luck in getting it off the ground.

I guess that's the way to go but I think It will have to be in unlicensed premises. I want it to be pretty casual though, not like a casino, no rake. Just fees going back into the club for equipment, and road trips. Stuff like that. I'm sure the casino wouldn't be happy and say I'm breaking the law in some way.

NickyOD

Culchie wrote:

oh ..... and while I'm ranting
What about every pub in the West of Ireland that runs a "25's" game one night a week ???

Yep, 45 drive been going on in the GAA club bar in Shannon town for nearly a decade.

dexem

NickyOD wrote:

"Poker games in licensed premises are illegal under Sect 9 of the Gaming and Lotteries Act 1956,” he explained. "Poker games are only legal of the promoter is not gaining any profit from them"

If I don't make any profit and the money goes back into the club, then do I get around this?

I had a look at the legislastion (it's all online :-)): http://193.178.1.79/1956_2.html section 9 is the relevant section. I would imagine you could get around it with a club, but I don't know.

Coillte_Bhoy

Run regular games in my pub every week. Usually €20 buy in, no reg fee and all entries and rebuys etc. goes to prize pool. e.g. 28 players for Bank Holiday €30 tourney last Monday with €20 rebuys for 90mins. and 1 top up. Generated prize pool of €1,700 with money for top 4, winner taking €700. Checked with local Garadi and they have no problem with it.

Culchie

Bingo

http://193.178.1.79/ZZA2Y1956S4.html

You should be OK according to this !

Hitman Actual

A simple workaround: set up in a funfair. Not sure if your tournaments would be great value though...

Licensed amusement hall and funfair. 14.—Gaming carried on at an amusement hall or funfair shall not be unlawful gaming if—


( b ) the stake in each game is not more than sixpence for each player, and
( d ) no player may win more than the value of ten shillings in each game

NickyOD

Culchie wrote:

Bingo

http://193.178.1.79/ZZA2Y1956S4.html

You should be OK according to this !

Purrrrfect. I'll have it in print waiting for the gardai when they arrive.

Culchie

Coillte_Bhoy wrote:

Run regular games in my pub every week. Usually €20 buy in, no reg fee and all entries and rebuys etc. goes to prize pool. e.g. 28 players for Bank Holiday €30 tourney last Monday with €20 rebuys for 90mins. and 1 top up. Generated prize pool of €1,700 with money for top 4, winner taking €700. Checked with local Garadi and they have no problem with it.

Where's the pub Coillte-Bhoy ?

Tell me now !!!

ZZR1100

we have been running a 12 to 16 player tourney structure for about 18 months in a local bar (private room)with no problems.we take 5% of the prize money for tables / cards etc and anything that is left over goes to the league fund ( points awarded every week for top 6 )which is played for at the end of season.if the garda raid we are playing for a turkey.Lplate is the turkey(private joke )

Pokerevents

Gambling is iilegal on licenced premises. Pokerevents organise and promote tournament poker, with the intention of giving it's members the opportunity to qualify for international events.
The Gardai have viewed these events as competitions with the winners being awarded pizes. As there is a set buy-in and no cash games at any of our events the authorities look favorable on our organisation. However I went to the trouble/expense of being briefed by a barrister and getting my solictor to write to the relevent superintendants around the country.
I suggest you do the same only after you set up a club/society(this is essential)

Regarding setting up a official poker body in Ireland, I have written to the ministry of sport who have passed the buck and put me on to the Irish sports council. I am currently applying to the council to have tournament poker veiwed as a sport. This is extremly ambitous as the national bridge council have being knocking on the door for years without any sucess. If anyone has any idea's I willing to listen and put my resources behind a body that can lobby to the authorities for the changes we want.

Coillte_Bhoy

Fintan,
Do you think the topurnaments i run are illegal?? Do we need to set up a society etc?? By the way myself and a number of regulars have played in Westwood and found it extremely well run and a good night out. Even managed a second place in a V.C. satellite one night. How's The Pianoman getting on lately? he wore me down that night.

Pokerevents

where are your tournaments bhoy?
yea the piano man is still winning.

Pokerevents

ahh culchie , i know u now
u are none other than the phamtom, once the local guards give green light, your sound,
we have 50k guaranteed on june 17/18 which is 400 freezeout, if u can get the weekend off let me know and i'll arrange accomodation for u

Dub13

Pokerevents wrote:

. If anyone has any idea's I willing to listen and put my resources behind a body that can lobby to the authorities for the changes we want.

How about a petition...?they may listen to you more if you have 1000s of names.And you are the right man to start one.

Hitchhiker's Guide to...

was talking to someone down in the fitz who set up his own club a few years back. apparently the key issue is not that gambling is taking place on a premises, but that the organiser cannot be getting a share of the gambling. Thus, you can get around it by charging a 'room use' fee (i.e. a reg fee), but you cannot benefit from the gambling (i.e. by getting some of the rebuy money ala red cow).

Of course, whether this fine detail is understood by your local guarda is a whole new issue. As was said previously, best to run the idea past the local gardai first...

Oddjob

To the best of my knowledge, there is a card room opening up in Limerick shortly. A Limerick businessman was in Dublin a few months back looking at the Fitz, Merrion etc. A friend of mine was with him looking around and he told me, as it's in Limerick, I didn't pay much attention. If you want I can get more details.

NickyOD

Oddjob wrote:

To the best of my knowledge, there is a card room opening up in Limerick shortly. A Limerick businessman was in Dublin a few months back looking at the Fitz, Merrion etc. A friend of mine was with him looking around and he told me, as it's in Limerick, I didn't pay much attention. If you want I can get more details.

I heard about this and I'm pretty sure I know who your friend is. but I think it went down the pan. The guy started making some excuses about it taking a long time to get the tables or some BS and left your friend in the dark, although I haven't spoken to him in the last couple of weeks. Either way its a seriously dodgy venue on Nicholas street. I'd certainly trust the guy who wants to manage it but not the owner. I'll send Mr. C an email.

Pokerevents

Roundtower your event is illegal if, not the fact organizer is recieving a share of
the monies put into pool, but if the organizer is making profit. Thus event in red cow where 50% of re-buys is going to promoter to cover costs of event is legit, as long as organisation is not making profit. That is why all pokerevents team are staff who recieve wage only, with all monies coming in covering production costs. If bank account does show profit at end of year, this is where donation to charity or some smart idea accountant may come with comes into play.

amp

Pokerevents wrote:

If bank account does show profit at end of year, this is where donation to charity or some smart idea accountant may come with comes into play.

Fascinating statement. I'm currently researching the Data Protection Laws, so I can find out how exactly to be removed from receiving spam text messages from Pokerevents. Now it seems that skimming the money outside of reg fees is actually illegal, given that Pokerevents are profiting directly from gambling.

It's hard to understand exactly what "some smart idea accountant may come with comes into play." actually means but I wouldn't be surprised if it involved off-shore accounts a la Liam Lawlor.

Personally I would ignore Pokerevents with regard to the legality of setting up your own tournaments.

NickyOD

I don't understand where the line is drawn between casinos and bookmakers legally making a profit and other gambling promotors not.

amp

Not surprisingly this is a problem with the Gaming and Lotteries act 1956 is an outdated piece of ****.

Section 4 says this:

4.—(1) No person shall promote or assist in promoting or provide facilities for any kind of gaming—

( a ) in which by reason of the nature of the game, the chances of all the players, including the banker, are not equal, or

( b ) in which any portion of the stakes is retained by the promoter or is retained by the banker otherwise than as winnings on the result of the play,

The act in question does seem to have been written with slot machines in mind more than poker. The last time this act was updated was 1979. Searching the entire Irish Statute Book doesn't reveal any mention of the word poker.

So while technically skimming more than the reg is illegal, so are slot machines that payout more than a shilling.

Gaming and Lotteries Act 1956