[Article] IRA still recruiting and targeting

MT

The IRA is still recruiting and targeting, warns police chief

By Tom Peterkin

Northern Ireland's most senior policeman said yesterday that the IRA was continuing to recruit volunteers despite Gerry Adams's plea for an end to the armed struggle.

Hugh Orde, the province's chief constable, supported claims made last week by Bertie Ahern, the Irish Prime Minister, when he said the Provisionals were still active.

Although Mr Orde said he was "clear" that the Provisional IRA was not going back to an armed struggle, he added: "We know they are still recruiting, they still target, they still carry out the activities that they have always done with the exception of going out to kill soldiers, police, civilians, members of the public."

Mr Adams, the Sinn Fein president, has said that the IRA had begun internal discussions as to whether it should follow his call to forsake violence for politics.

But his declaration has been met with a sceptical response among Sinn Fein's opponents on both sides of the border, with rival politicians dismissing it as a ruse to maximise the republican vote.

Mr Orde, who is head of the Police Service of Northern Ireland, said it was now for republicans to prove this claim was more than just words. "I have always said I'd wait and see. Actions speak louder than words and currently I haven't seen an awful lot of action that suggests that there is going to be a fundamental shift.

"That doesn't mean there won't be but, as we said when the loyalists declared their renewed ceasefire, we'll wait and see. We didn't have to wait long to see, there. We arrested a lot of them."

Mr Orde said dissident hardline republican terror groups such as the Real and Continuity IRA were still trying to cause disruption but had been thwarted by arrests. David Liddington, the Conservative Party's Northern Ireland spokesman, said Mr Orde's remarks demonstrated that Sinn Fein and the IRA still had far to go to achieve credibility.

"The fact that the IRA is still recruiting and targeting, in addition to its involvement in other criminal activities, will do nothing to convince the law-abiding majority - Unionist and Nationalist - in Northern Ireland that they are about to abandon the option of violence.

''For that to happen, republican involvement in crime must end. Sinn Fein should support the police. The IRA has to decommission its illegally-held arms. Until that happens, there is no question of a Conservative Government accepting Sinn Fein into the government of Northern Ireland."

Mitchel McLaughlin, the Sinn Fein general secretary, described Mr Orde's comments as "yet another political intervention''.

He said: "Given the fact that these remarks come in the midst of an election campaign and at a time when the initiative by Gerry Adams offers the prospect of forward movement, many questions will be raised about the intentions of the PSNI.''

The Daily Telegraph (Filed: 29/04/2005)

This latest activity by the IRA demonstrates breathtaking cynicism on the part of the Republican Movement in the light of Gerry Adam’s recent speech. I think this now confirms that Adams made his conveniently timed address for no other reason than electoral advantage. It amounted to nothing more than duplicitous electioneering. The question is, just as Bertie Ahern informed us that Adams had assented to the Northern Bank robbery while negotiating in bad faith, had the SF leader also agreed to continued recruitment and targeting prior to his sanctimonious remarks on the future of the IRA? Just like the November negotiations was his recent speech also given in ‘bad faith’?

I don’t buy Mitchel McLaughlin’s ‘political intervention’ whinge for one moment. This has now become the favourite Republican smokescreen when anyone has the temerity to point out the movement’s hypocrisy and lies.

How has confirming the intelligence gathered recently for both the Teasoich and the International Monitoring Commission got anything to do with politics. I mean, if Orde is the ‘unionist stooge’ republicans have attempted to smear him as why unearth would he have recently caused far greater harm to the Ulster Unionist campaign by launching a full scale raid on one of their most prominent MLA’s election offices to seize computer files for a money laundering operation. It was so damaging the UUP leader David Trimble has lodged a complaint with the Police Ombudsman’s Office. Add to this the fact that the PSNI’s Assets Recovery Agency has cracked down with far greater severity on Loyalist paramilitaries and it’s clear Orde’s no more biased against Republicans than he is against anyone else. I doubt the man gives a damn about politics.

But the question stands, if the PSNI are operating a conspiracy to damage Sinn Fein in an attempt to cosy up to Unionism – or whatever this weeks paranoid Republican fantasy is – why cause immeasurably more harm to David Trimble in the midst of an election campaign with the massive raid on Michael Copeland’s home and offices?

And everyone up here knows who cowardly Republican hoods have been targeting with intimidation and harassment during this election campaign – the honest and true democrats canvassing for the SDLP. Yet again it’s Catholics in the North who are bullied by the brave freedom fighters – the so-called community defenders in the IRA.

MT

More on this from the BBC:

IRA 'targeting security forces'

The IRA is still engaged in targeting security force members "with the exception of actually going out to kill them", Hugh Orde has said.

Northern Ireland's chief constable said the terror group was still recruiting but said his current view was that they would not return to violence.

His assessment follows a recent call by Sinn Fein President Gerry Adams for the IRA to follow democratic means.

Mr Orde was speaking at a PSNI awards presentation ceremony in Belfast.

Last week, Irish prime minister Bertie Ahern said the IRA was still training and recruiting new members.

Mr Ahern told the Dail that some IRA members had moved on to criminality.

Dissident republicans

On Tuesday, Mr Adams said the IRA had started an internal debate on whether it should pursue its goals exclusively through politics.

Speaking on Thursday, Mr Orde said: "Currently, I am absolutely clear the Provisional IRA are not going back to an armed struggle.

"That is my current assessment. They have the capability. They have the capacity.

"We know they are still recruiting, they still target, they still carry out the activities that they have always done with the exception of actually going out to kill soldiers, police, civilians, members of the public."

He said dissident republican activity had been thwarted by several arrests by police on both sides of the border.

"It means they are severely restricted in what they can do, although they are determined to keep going," said the chief constable.

Loyalist paramilitaries seemed more concerned about making money from criminal enterprises, he said.

"Again we have been successful in arresting and locking them up."

BBC NEWS (28/04/05)

MT

If the IRA are still recruiting, still targeting and they're still carrying out the 'activities that they have always done' - ie. intimidation, punishment beatings, harassment, protection rackets, theft and a host of other criminal acts - I believe they may well have been instructed by Sinn Fein to wait until this election's over and the pressure on the party drops before resuming the murders. When the votes have been counted and SF no longer need to woo the north's nationalists, the killings will most likely begin again. Then there will be yet another heartbroken collection of relatives for Gerry and Martin to patronise with comments about the need 'to move forwards towards peace'.

Cork

MT wrote:

Then there will be yet another heartbroken collection of relatives for Gerry and Martin to patronise with comments about the need 'to move forwards towards peace'.

They know what they are getting with Paisley and the Shinners.

Stalemate and zero compromise.


Eoghan Harris has been completelty right about NI.

hawkmoon269

MT, I agree with everything you said. Couldn't have put it better myself.

MT

Cork wrote:

They know what they are getting with Paisley and the Shinners.

Stalemate and zero compromise.


Eoghan Harris has been completelty right about NI.

I have to agree entirely with your analysis Cork. Harris’ gloomy view of the north has long been the reality. Here’s another dim view from one of his co-writers at the Sindo of the depths to which NI’s electorate has now sunk:

Election will prove North is beyond hope

IT'S known as 'tragic over-living'. It's what happens when someone lives way beyond the point at which they would have been remembered much more favourably by posterity.

King Lear and Oedipus are common highbrow examples, but there is Elvis, too. Had Presley died after Jailhouse Rock, his memory would have been untarnished. Instead he went on to make Viva Las Vegas and eat too many burgers. Enough said.

Barbara Stanwyck, likewise, went from film noir greatness to Dynasty spinoff TheColbys. Orson Welles ended up doing whiskey ads. Alex Ferguson is clinging on too long at Old Trafford. Dirty Den came back to Albert Square. All fell victim to the same syndrome.

What goes for individuals also applies to larger political events. The peace process in the North is a good example.

If all had gone according to plan after the Belfast Agreement in 1998, the IRA would be history, decommissioning would have happened, devolution could have kicked in, cross-border cooperation would be up and running nicely, and the North would by now have settled down its historic long-term fate of being as boring as Belgium.

Instead, the peace process didn't know when to lay down and die, but ground on - and on - and, oh God, on again - like a hammy actor who won't leave the stage and just keeps coming back for another curtain call, even as the audience is streaming, bored and embarrassed, towards the exits.

And all the while, stuff kept on happening, as stuff has a bad habit of doing. Before you knew it, everything which had looked so shiny and happy was fracturing messily into bank heists and beatings, and dirty tricks and Catholic men being stabbed to death outside Belfast bars, while Sinn Fein monkeys saw no evil and heard no evil, and certainly spoke no evil of even the most evil of their colleagues.

Naturally enough, most onlookers soon got fed up of it all. Any good feelings which the peace process once engendered simply dissipated away, ruining the memory of all which had gone before. A definite case of tragic over-living.

And next Thursday, in the UK general election, the whole process will come to its (un)natural tragi-comic conclusion, as Sinn Fein and Ian Paisley's Democratic Unionists finally carve up the six counties between them, leaving the mainstream nationalist and unionist parties potentially without any MPs at all.

Even if the SDLP and the Ulster Unionists manage to scrape some scraps of consolation from the polls, it remains by any standards, a major political disaster. Unless you're Sinn Fein, that is. A takeover of the entire nationalist political apparatus was always part of the plan, and now it will come to pass.

It's another triumph for the solipsism of the great (ahem) Northern public. It scarcely matters what happens elsewhere. The war in Iraq has returned with a vengeance to haunt British Prime Minister Tony Blair in the campaign, but word of it has yet to reach Northern Ireland. Taxation? Transport? Education? They care nothing for such trifles.

Instead, the shadow of those dreary steeples of Fermanagh still dominate the landscape, as they have done in every Ulster election since the Jurassic age.

Even within those restricted confines, certain matters pass without mention. Outgoing SDLP veteran Seamus Mallon was warning last week of the impending "Balkanisation of the North"; the Justice Minister Michael McDowell was reiterating that republican plans to create a "state within a state" down South are "well advanced"; the PSNI chief constable was confirming the Taoiseach's recent statement that the IRA is still targetting potential victims.

On the BBC, meanwhile, Newsnight was airing a timely report reminding voters that three of Sinn Fein's most prominent elected representatives - Gerry Adams MP, Martin McGuinness MP, and Martin Ferris TD - sit on the Army Council of the Provisional IRA, and McGuinness was responding with the sort of cold-eyed petulant menace that would have voters elsewhere wondering what on earth they had elected.

But none of it makes the slightest ripple in the North, any more than dead fathers and kidnapped bank workers did, which is why voters will still troop dutifully out on Thursday to return the Honourable Members for Mid-Semtex and Armalite West. This is democratic delinquency on an unimaginable scale, and begs the question: do nationalists actually have a bottom line anymore?

Is there anything IRA/Sinn Fein could do that nationalists would now consider deserving of punishment at the ballot box? If spying, lying, murder, robbery and rearmament get the nod, it certainly doesn't look like.

What, though, is the point of complaining about it? Nothing makes a difference. The North, electorally, is now beyond hope, beyond saving. All anyone on the outside can do is try their best not to join in the madness.

There will be a lot of nonsense talked once the votes are counted, about respecting the democratic mandates of the various victors. But what is there to respect about people who vote Sinn Fein and DUP?

If they sent back Mr Blobby or the Boston Strangler to the House of
Commons, would we have to respect that too?

This is like saying thatS Club 7 must be better than Schoenberg because they sell more CDs. The public isn't always right.

When people in the North repeatedly turn out to vote for sectarian demagoguery and backstreet thuggery above all available normal democratic alternatives, then they have not delivered a verdict which needs to be respected.

They have simply provided further evidence that they are collectively, provably and certifiably as mad as a fridge.

Eilis O'Hanlon

Sunday Independent (1/5/05)

I believe that this election will confirm for all the near psychotic nature of much of the northern electorate. As far as each tribe is concerned all that matters is getting one over on the other side. Unlike in the rest of the truly democratic world where people give consideration to socio-economic issues and the things that really matter like schools, hospitals, etc. all that exercises the mind of the average voter in NI is how to screw over the other side. Hence, tomorrow will see the triumph of two of the most repugnant electoral extremes in Western Europe – Sinn Fein and the DUP. And lets not indulge in polite fictions here for these two parties should be named for what they really represent: the IRA and Protestant Jihad. Yes, the two men chosen by the ‘great’ people of NI to lead them will be a member of the army council of a blood soaked terrorist organization and a lunatic foam flecked geriatric bigot.

IMO the North is not only a failed state in the seemingly abstract sense that Republicans like to parrot. It is also a failed society. The people there have become tribalised into their own Balkan-like ethnic groups. All most seem to care about is ‘whataboutary’ and communal one-upmanship. There could be a third world war raging across the globe and it would make not one iota of difference to the nauseating naval gazing that goes on up here. It would be business as usual – how to perpetuate their own petty prejudices. And it’s this medieval form of society – and its deranged political parties – that must be contained and prevented from contaminating the Republic. Which, seemingly, is just what SF apologists in the south want to do in their calls for a united Ireland. Why, it’d be like hitching the country onto the likes of Zimbabwe. A more disastrous future you couldn’t imagine.

rightleftright

calls for a united Ireland. Why, it’d be like hitching the country onto the likes of Zimbabwe. A more disastrous future you couldn’t imagine

Most Irish people want a united ireland free from the clutches of saxon oppression. If you want northern Ireland to be part of the UK then I believe you are either a brit or a traitor.

sceptre

rightleftright wrote:

Most Irish people want a united ireland free from the clutches of saxon oppression. If you want northern Ireland to be part of the UK then I believe you are either a brit or a traitor.

Please read the rules in the charter about insulting other posters. There won't be another warning. Additionally, if you've got nothing tangiable and pertinent to add to the discussion itself, please don't bother.

rightleftright

Please read the rules in the charter about insulting other posters. There won't be another warning. Additionally, if you've got nothing tangiable and pertinent to add to the discussion itself, please don't bother.

I havent insulted anybody that doesent need insulting.

Capt'n Midnight

The only reason they need to recruit is because of staff turnover recently, and the worst thing is that people seem to go bad all of a sudden when they leave, well compared to how they are depicted as behaving whilst still members or am I getting mixed up with completely different organisation SF ?

pork99

rightleftright wrote:

Most Irish people want a united ireland free from the clutches of saxon oppression. If you want northern Ireland to be part of the UK then I believe you are either a brit or a traitor.

No, I think traitors murder Gardai who are doing their duty to society and protecting us while we sleep and so forth.

By your logic SF/IRA must be either "brits or traitors" because the effect of 30 years of terrorism on Northern Ireland has been to leave it economically, politically and militarily more closely integrated with Britain than ever before. Especially the economy which is dependent on British subsidies to an extent which the Republic could not match; http://www.sluggerotoole.com/archives/2005/04/time_to_tackle.php#more

Mighty_Mouse

This latest activity by the IRA demonstrates breathtaking cynicism on the part of the Republican Movement in the light of Gerry Adam’s recent speech.

Even IF the above stories are true, the IRA are only on cease-fire. Did you believe different?

Please enough of the INDO stories. Its a free newspaper to subscribe to.

This Indo argument has been trashed out before. Its a rag.

I havent read the article fully but its an anti-republican rant about how stupid voters are in the north to vote for the terrorists Sinn Fein ( oops sorry the lovely unionist term " Sinn Fein/IRA"). (but lets not analyse the situation to understand why sf are voted in)

I presume last Sundays edition had the usual portion of Anti-SF rants with the word "murderer" mentioned a certain number of times, maybe pictures of McCabe again, SinnFein-IRA in prominent places and a complete blanket refusal to analysis the problems of the north from anything other than a unionist perspective.

Oh sorry, we probably also had the pleasure of seeing some famous Irish nightclub owner with her tits out at the premier of a ****ty film somewhere.

Anyone that argues that its anything other than a broad-sheet rag is raving. (oh thats right we now have it in tabloid format)

That said, its sports writers are excellant.

Milo

I think ye should really get sources that don't have vested interests, as those provided are anything but impartial. Seems to me that just before a british general election there's what used to be called propaganda circulating. Is it anti-democratic to try and influence an election this way??

The IRA is still recruiting and targeting, warns police chief

the BBC

Sunday Independent (1/5/05)

sceptre

Mighty_Mouse wrote:

Please enough of the INDO stories. Its a free newspaper to subscribe to.

This Indo argument has been trashed out before. Its a rag.

I've long had little regard for the Indo but even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

sceptre

Milo wrote:

I think ye should really get sources that don't have vested interests, as those provided are anything but impartial.

What sources might be agreeable to you then? Not just "ones that are impartial", name a few in particular that would be. I'd say that given that the BBC's licence fee is secure for the next decade that they're as impartial as I'd like and I'm generally rather happy with them as a source (especially as they're reporting a on a factual basis that a particular policeman has a particular opinion, hence your beef should be with the copper rather than the auntie) but I'd really like to see particular sources picked by you out of my own general sense of curiosity.

MT

At least the government is alert to the continued threat posed by the IRA:

McDowell calls for joint police effort to tackle IRA mini-State

JUSTICE Minister Michael McDowell said yesterday the gardai and PSNI must use all their powers to frustrate what he described as "a well advanced project of the Provisional IRA to create a State within a State on this island".

The minister told the first international police seminar organised by the Criminal Assets Bureau (CAB) that every effort will be made to stamp out organised crime, and seize proceeds amassed by crime barons - whether within the drug trafficking spectrum or under a blanket of subversive activity.

Praising the joint co-operation already evident between the gardai and the PSNI, the minister said cross-border initiatives and cooperation are an increasing and essential feature of law enforcement in Europe.

Referring to wide-ranging new powers given to the authorities under the Criminal Justice (Joint Investigation Teams) Act 2004, Mr McDowell declared: "It is essential that these powers are used to frustrate the well-advanced project of the Provisional IRA to create a State within a State on this island.

"The troubled history of this country and the consequent complex and evolving links between paramilitary groups and organised crime pose special challenges which can only be met through the highest levels of co-operation between the agencies in both parts of Ireland."

During the conference the minister also defended his policy on immigration procedures and pointed to the fact that a flood of refugees to this country, many by illegal means, had now been slowed down.

He said the influx had now fallen well below the 11,000 and 12,000 refugees coming in before the Government took a firm line on the issue.

Garda Commissioner Noel Conroy said yesterday it is the first time for the heads of the CAB to be joined at a seminar by members of the British-based Assets Recovery Agency, which targets the proceeds from crime in Britain and the North. Senior representatives from police agencies, including Europol and Interpol, were also present from different EU member states.

A special joint presentation was made during the opening session yesterday by Felix McKenna, head of the CAB in Dublin, and Belfast's Alan McQuillan deputy director of the Assets Recovery Agency.

The first session was chaired by James Hamilton, Director of Public Prosecutions, who said his office is fully supportive of the ongoing campaign against organised crime in this country.

A closed session is to be chaired today by the CAB chief Mr McKenna, which will deal with taxation and social welfare action against criminal proceeds as well as the management and disposal of seized assets.

Under tight security, the three-day conference was opened at Nuremore Hotel, Carrickmacross in Co Monaghan by Mr McDowell, after delegates from different EU countries were welcomed by the Garda Commissioner Noel Conroy.

Mr McDowell revealed that between 1996 and 2003, CAB obtained interim and final restraint orders to the value of €51m and €22m respectively.

The minister added that in the same period, interest and taxes demanded were in excess of €76m - with over €56m collected.

Patsy McArdle Irish Independent

I think these moves will prove to be vital in challenging the growing criminal empire of the Republican Movement. This increased intensity should have been adopted years ago but unfortunately we were very much in ‘better not damage the peace process’ mode. However, better late than never and if the threat posed to democracy by an ascendant Sinn Fein is to dealt with effectively then targeting the illicitly gained wealth of their armed wing is an important first step.

MT

Setting aside the IRA’s continued recruitment for a moment, when will Sinn Fein inform authorities of the whereabouts of the Colombia 3. As the following article highlights, the three gringos are responsible for even more blood on the hands of the Republican Movement’s armed wing. I wonder, what exactly has training Farc guerrillas got to do with the struggle for Irish freedom? How will the deaths of thousands of innocent Colombians help solve problems in the North? Maybe this grubby affair had nothing to do with Ireland at all, and everything to do with a large payment of drug money.

I wonder who the IRA will decide to export their violence to next? ‘Come and get it, death and destruction’s never been cheaper… you’ll be blown away by this offer of a lifetime.’ A lifetime of misery that is.

'IRA influence' in Farc attacks

By Jeremy McDermott
BBC News, Medellin

Recent attacks by Colombia's Marxist rebels display the training of IRA members captured in the country in August 2001, an army chief has said.

Gen Carlos Ospina said there was no doubt Revolutionary Armed Forces (Farc) rebels were using IRA techniques in a counter-offensive launched in February.

The three Irishmen were convicted of helping train Farc rebels in explosives and terrorist techniques.

They are now on the run and thought to have skipped the country.

The armed forces chief said the Farc guerrillas were employing new technology in the home-made mortars they had recently used to bomb towns in the south-western province of Cauca.

Security forces had seized rebel grenades that were copies of those manufactured by the Provisional IRA, Gen Ospina added.

The guerrilla actions have caught the military by surprise.

The three Irishmen caught the Colombian police similarly by surprise when they disappeared after their convictions.

James Monaghan, Niall Connolly and Martin McCauley vanished while on bail in December awaiting the outcome of an appeal against their 17-year sentences.

Their whereabouts remain unknown and an international arrest warrant has been issued for them.

(9/5/05)

Maybe Sinn Fein will one day send over another working party - this time in aid of reconciliation as opposed to terrorism. Yes, Caoihín O’Caoláin and Aengus O’Snodaigh would make a great two man team to highlight the plight of those disabled by Farc bombs and the suffering of women at the hands of the guerrilla movement’s violence.

jman0

At this point in time, i would argue against further decommissioning.
Disbanding obviously is out of the question as it is not part of the Agreement anyway. We haven't seen any decommissioning from Loyalist paramiliaries so where's the quid pro quo?

We know the DUP will never share power with Republicans. People that think otherwise are dreaming. Maybe when Paisley kicks off that idea could be re-visited but until then it's a pipe dream.

That being the case there is no chance of a NI Assembly being reconstituted.
HMG is not likely to fulfill any other outstanding issues of the Agreement in the meantime, nor address Policing by returning to Patten.
In fact i suspect they will pay lip service to the DUP and actually expect the IRA to do things that are outside the Agreement (like disbandment, photo's of decommissioning, etc).

Right now SF is on a winning course, while the IRA still exists and are apparently still active , SF is growing and winning votes.
Maybe we really are getting to the Armalite and Ballot box strategy.
It may be or will become debatable if some miltary action (by proxy?) could be tried to test the loyalty and tolerance of the electorate at some future point.

MT

jman0 wrote:

At this point in time, i would argue against further decommissioning…

Do you believe that decommissioning is only a bargaining chip to be exchanged for a share of power in the North? I take it, you don’t believe in the moral case alone for the end of a paramilitary wing.

If you believe that decommissioning and disbandment by the IRA are not part of the Agreement would you be happy for the IRA to remain armed and active if Sinn Fein ever attain power in the Republic?

Sinn Fein might be on a winning course – though the fall off in the growth of their vote would dispute this – but if the sentiments expressed in your post gain widespread support then democracy in Ireland will die. It is as simple and as catastrohic as that.

jman0 wrote:

It may be or will become debatable if some miltary action (by proxy?) could be tried to test the loyalty and tolerance of the electorate at some future point.

I think that comment alone encapsulates the tyranny that threatens Ireland’s future. If ever a day comes when the Irish people are forced to pledge loyalty to the IRA then Sinn Fein’s subversion of democracy will be complete. The Republic's new constitution will consist of only three letters - RIP.

jman0

jman0 wrote:

It may be or will become debatable if some miltary action (by proxy?) could be tried to test the loyalty and tolerance of the electorate at some future point.

I doubt it...
(same answer to the rest of your post by the way)

oscarBravo

jman0 wrote:

At this point in time, i would argue against further decommissioning...

Jesus. Wept.

Cork

jman0 wrote:

Right now SF is on a winning course, while the IRA still exists and are apparently still active , SF is growing and winning votes.
Maybe we really are getting to the Armalite and Ballot box strategy.

Maybe other groups looking for election should follow this example.

The IRA is on the way out. No government will tolerate any more from them.

PaulinCork

What do people think about Nelson Mandela having been a terrrorist?

Running Bing

I think your attitude towards the people of northern Ireland is very patronising MT. you are a loyalist and you are fully entitled to your opinion, Just as Northern republicans are entitled to theirs. Unfortunately republicans in this country north and south have very few alternatives to sinn fein i.e. parties who are fully committed to a 32 county united Ireland.

The IRA have been responsible for some horrendous attrocities
throughout the years just as British armed forces on this island have. But that is what happens when a nation is forcfully occupied and its people oppressed. In my opinion the IRA have as much right to partake in armed struggle as American forces had in Vietnam or even in Iraq. And please dont be so naive as to think American forces have not committed equally horrendous attrocities.


Despite my strong views on this topic it is just my opinion and I would never patronise or bellittle anyone who felt differently. I would ask you to extend me the same courtesy MT.

Sand

What do people think about Nelson Mandela having been a terrrorist?

I think it justifies every inhuman act in the history of mankind, every act of terrorism and murder. Sure, if Nelson Mandela did it, it cant be as bad as they say?*

*Warning the above is sarcasm, just to spell out how pointless that repetitive "Whatabout Nelson Mandela" crap is. I see it every now and then. If Nelson Mandela involved himself in terrorism then hes a terrorist and doesnt deserve the cheerleading he gets. End of.

It may be or will become debatable if some miltary action (by proxy?) could be tried to test the loyalty and tolerance of the electorate at some future point.

Dont they have Direct Action against Drugs and the RIRA for that already? Either way, I almost hope SF/IRA try go back to open terrorism. Then the public support will be there for interning every single provo terrorist and siezing every last bit of criminally obtained property they own down to the last shirt and locking them away pretty much forever. Oh, I know you cry, that would never happen - but DeValera broke the IRA with internment, with McDowell in power and with people rightly furious at SF/IRA for going back to terrorism never say never.

The IRA have been responsible for some horrendous attrocities
throughout the years just as British armed forces on this island have. But that is what happens when a nation is forcfully occupied and its people oppressed. In my opinion the IRA have as much right to partake in armed struggle as American forces had in Vietnam or even in Iraq. And please dont be so naive as to think American forces have not committed equally horrendous attrocities.

The absolutely crucial difference you failed to mention was that British atrocities like Bloody Sunday are the subject of inquiries, and law enforcement. American atrocities in Iraq, like Ab Gahrib are being tried now in courts.

SF/IRA does not adhere to the Geneva Convention. They deliberately murder and maim civillians, like in Kingsmills, Jean McConville and Enniskillen which SF/IRA stand over as totally in line with their methods and objectives - who in SF/IRA was punished for carrying out and planning those atrocites? Who was punished for carrying out an operation like this?

SF/IRA are terrorists, not soldiers. They engage in terrorism, not war. They adhere only to some twisted immoral code that permits absolutely any depravity that advances the cause, they do not enforce the standards expected of an army.

Despite my strong views on this topic it is just my opinion and I would never patronise or bellittle anyone who felt differently. I would ask you to extend me the same courtesy MT.

Then dont patronise us by claiming SF/IRA was ever fighting a war. And for the record, I've yet to see MT advocate a "loyalist" position, bar the utterly sensible rejection of allowing the psychopathic tribes in Northern Ireland pollute our stable political system and the criticism of SF/IRA brutality and deception. I cant understand how anyone whod style themselves republican could support an organisation that has so successfully driven a wedge between Catholics and Protestants, oppressed and murdered more Catholics than even the maligned British army or any other faction in the troubles and generally pissed all over the ideals of the original united irishmen.

Running Bing

Sand wrote:

The absolutely crucial difference you failed to mention was that British atrocities like Bloody Sunday are the subject of inquiries, and law enforcement. American atrocities in Iraq, like Ab Gahrib are being tried now in courts.

Are you telling me that all injustices done to both catholic and protestent people in Northern Ireland by armed forces such as the UDR and B-specials are the subject of inquiries? I do not believe this for a second.

Sand wrote:

Then dont patronise us by claiming SF/IRA was ever fighting a war.

I believe if war is ever justified it is justified when a nation plunders, occupies and oppresses a neighbouring nation. I dont think anyone can possibly deny that is what Britian did to Ireland.

Sand wrote:

And for the record, I've yet to see MT advocate a "loyalist" position

Actually MT describes the prospect of a united Ireland as "a more disastrous future you couldnt imagine". I hope you didnt think I meant that as a derogatory statement I simply felt that was MT's stance on the matter from his comments.

Sand wrote:

organisation that has so successfully driven a wedge between Catholics and Protestants

So Sinn Fein is to blame for hatred between catholic and protestent communities. Do you seriously believe this? Because I can assure you I certainly don't

Sand wrote:

oppressed and murdered more Catholics than even the maligned British army or any other faction in the troubles

even more than the UDR/Loyalist paramilitary groups and B-specials/loyalist paramilitary groups? I think not ,innocent people both catholic and protestent murdered by "official" British weapons and documents.

A Dub in Glasgo

sand wrote:

The absolutely crucial difference you failed to mention was that British atrocities like Bloody Sunday are the subject of inquiries, and law enforcement.

This is a joke post... right?

The British have literally gotten away with murder during their dirty little war.

Law enforcement for British murder... lol

The British forces have deliberately murdered and maimed civilians and have gotten away with it.

angry_fox

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

This is a joke post... right?

The British have literally gotten away with murder during their dirty little war.

Law enforcement for British murder... lol

The British forces have deliberately murdered and maimed civilians and have gotten away with it.

Dont forget the IRAs dirty little war, and what they have gotten away with. Over the course of the troubles, if a catholic even said hello to a soldier, they were shot dead. The magic word the IRA used was collusion.
Anyway, both sides committed incredible atrocities over the years. But there will never be any justice for anyone, it cant be done.

RDM_83

Would you prefer if there wasn't voting in northern ireland, SF have won most of the nationilist/republican (catholic) vote in the north do you want them to be disinfranchised.People in the Republic have a view of the UUP that they are nice all moderates which just isn't true. oh and the indo is a rag, what does harris have against educated people (possibly he feels intimidated)

mycroft

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

This is a joke post... right?

The British have literally gotten away with murder during their dirty little war.

Law enforcement for British murder... lol

The British forces have deliberately murdered and maimed civilians and have gotten away with it.

And the IRA haven't literally got away with murder, they have in fact gotten away with murder, and the major issue they can't remember where they buried the bodies.

Yes the british government have commited horrifying acts and while we've gotten a tribunial into bloody sunday the IRA, for example haven't produced the evidence that proves Jean Mc Conville is a dirty tout, or examined the reasoning and actions of their volunteers for oh so many regretable actions.

Shirt ripping "are we not wronged" while theres an impressive collection of IRA victims buried in unmarked graves, is more than a tad hyprocritcal. If you believe that the British government needs to investigate the actions of it's own forces, stop with the calls for the Mc Cabe killers to be released under the good friday agreement. And instead ask for the IRA to publish it's findings of it's own "internal investigation". I do so love these demands for openess and justice, when the IRA refuse to co-operate with the Mc Cartney killers, but offer to shoot those responsible, without giving their reasoning or justification for this horrific offer.

And please spare us the military and army jargon. The victims of a crime are not, by any (even militarial level of justice) allowed to decide on a punishment.

A Dub in Glasgo

angry_fox wrote:

Dont forget the IRAs dirty little war, and what they have gotten away with. Over the course of the troubles, if a catholic even said hello to a soldier, they were shot dead. The magic word the IRA used was collusion.
Anyway, both sides committed incredible atrocities over the years. But there will never be any justice for anyone, it cant be done.

The IRA were subjected to the rule of law and if they were caught, they would face the law. The British forces did not.

I am well aware that the IRA committed atrocities but a lot of people seem to be ignorant of the fact that the British committed atrocities and got away with them.

A Dub in Glasgo

mycroft wrote:

And the IRA haven't literally got away with murder, they have in fact gotten away with murder, and the major issue they can't remember where they buried the bodies.

And who said otherwise... a case of whataboutry?

Yes the british government have commited horrifying acts and while we've gotten a tribunial into bloody sunday the IRA, for example haven't produced the evidence that proves Jean Mc Conville is a dirty tout, or examined the reasoning and actions of their volunteers for oh so many regretable actions.

So you agree with my reply to Sand then?

Shirt ripping "are we not wronged" while theres an impressive collection of IRA victims buried in unmarked graves, is more than a tad hyprocritcal.

You now do not agree with my reply to Sand then?

If you believe that the British government needs to investigate the actions of it's own forces, stop with the calls for the Mc Cabe killers to be released under the good friday agreement. And instead ask for the IRA to publish it's findings of it's own "internal investigation". I do so love these demands for openess and justice, when the IRA refuse to co-operate with the Mc Cartney killers, but offer to shoot those responsible, without giving their reasoning or justification for this horrific offer.

Talk about a severe dose of 'the innocent people that the British killed can have their justice but only on my terms'. Justice should be universal and come with no strings attached. You would rather involve a myriad of other side cases as some sort of quid pro quo arrangement.

And please spare us the military and army jargon. The victims of a crime are not, by any (even militarial level of justice) allowed to decide on a punishment.

Mighty_Mouse

I think it justifies every inhuman act in the history of mankind, every act of terrorism and murder. Sure, if Nelson Mandela did it, it cant be as bad as they say?*

Your politics remind me of a coca cola add from the 1970's sand.

I suppose its the difference between a realist and an idealist. For me, you can only judge actions within the context of the reality at the time.

According to Mandela, Blacks in South Africa tried the peaceful route as far as possible but eventually deciding that the white government forces were more than happy to use brute force to oppose it forever. (without any intervention from the world politic).

Wasn't there a peaceful protest in Derry in 1972? As I remember it; wasnt the british government 'just about' to throw the door open and allow representation, social equality etc to catholics........... Just to make it clear, everyone remembers the northern (south africa) situation differently. The point is, enough catholics/nationalists/republicans felt they had no other choice but to resort to voilence. The IRA was supported by the communities in the north which bore them.

Running Bing

Very well said mighty mouse. We can't forget why the provisional IRA came into existence in 1969. They arose to protect the nationalist communities from the persecution they were undergoing. You must ask yourself if your family was being tormented by armed forces who had no right to be in your country would you lie down and take it? If you would I find that very very sad.

Cork

Babybing wrote:

Very well said mighty mouse. We can't forget why the provisional IRA came into existence in 1969. They arose to protect the nationalist communities from the persecution they were undergoing. You must ask yourself if your family was being tormented by armed forces who had no right to be in your country would you lie down and take it? If you would I find that very very sad.

Sinn Fein and the IRA were under renewed pressure tonight following threats to burn down the homes of the family of murdered Belfast father-of-two Robert McCartney.

Theatning this family is yet another low even by NI standards.

Getting back to the vote,two Sinn Fein MEPs, Bairbre de Brun and Mary Lou McDonald, refused to back the EU resolution.The resolution, which was backed by 555-4 with 48 abstentions, will be now considered by the European Commission..

Will Babs or Mary Lou be making representations to the European Commission?

Is there any chance that this thread could go remotely back on topic?

Temporarally closing it so I can sift through it and move the off topic stuff to a more relevant thread.

This will take an hour or two.


*edit-Done*

Now please keep it on topic folks thanks.

Sand

Are you telling me that all injustices done to both catholic and protestent people in Northern Ireland by armed forces such as the UDR and B-specials are the subject of inquiries? I do not believe this for a second.

Would those be the B-Specials that were investigated and disbanded by the British? The bigoted Stormont parliment that was investigated and closed down by the British? The civil rights issues that were investigated and rectified by the British?

The British are not whiter than white but they have a far more developed self analysis and correction of their wrongs than SF/IRA. Can you name a single incident where SF/IRA investigated and punished an atrocity carried out by its members that was not a publicity stunt? I gave you a list of atrocities carried out by SF/IRA and planned by them, crimes which they stand over. Who was punished for those attacks? No one. You demand that the British punish *all* actions you view as atrocities, and yet you do not demand that SF/IRA investigate *any* action they carry out. SF/IRA endorses kidnapping families and forcing innocent men to drive remote detonated bombs to checkpoints. Its wholly in line with their (lack of) morals.

I believe if war is ever justified it is justified when a nation plunders, occupies and oppresses a neighbouring nation

War yes, terrorism no. SF/IRA are not an army, and they never fought a war.

even more than the UDR/Loyalist paramilitary groups and B-specials/loyalist paramilitary groups? I think not ,innocent people both catholic and protestent murdered by "official" British weapons and documents.

You know, I said before I couldnt understand why any republican could support SF/IRA. Perhaps I should have been kinder and said any informed republican. FYI, SF/IRA did kill even more Catholics than the British Army or any Loyalist faction. Check it out here yourself. Use organisation and religion summary as the variables. SF/IRA "defended" 340 catholics, 2nd was the UVF with 278, 3rd was the British Army with 254.

Do us a favour and pass the link on to your provo buddies, it's alarming how few provos realise their "defenders" are the most profilic killers of Catholics during the Troubles. With friends like that, who needs enemies?

Would you prefer if there wasn't voting in northern ireland, SF have won most of the nationilist/republican (catholic) vote in the north do you want them to be disinfranchised.

I dont want terrorists in government and I dont really care who the feck votes for them, I still dont want terrorists in government. Goats have been elected mayors, would you argue that the goat has a mandate and should be running Belfast if people voted for a goat? Or would you agree that regardless of "mandate" there has to be democratic standards?

I suppose its the difference between a realist and an idealist. For me, you can only judge actions within the context of the reality at the time.

If youre a realist, I cannot understand how you argue there was ever grounds for SF/IRAs terrorism, given the civil rights reform that was working throughout the late 60s and early 70s until SF/IRA drowed the political proccess in blood. The most I can allow was required was pure defence of Catholic estates from loyalist mobs that were attacking Catholic areas. There was never any grounds for SF/IRA other than that, and especially from the late 70s on.

You must ask yourself if your family was being tormented by armed forces who had no right to be in your country would you lie down and take it? If you would I find that very very sad.

What you must ask yourself is what does attacking a memorial service achieve? How does it protect Catholics to kill people mourning their dead? How does it help to leave a no warning bomb in a shopping street of an english town? All it does is encourage retaliation. No victory is won, no cities taken, no armies defeated. There is no end. There is just a cycle of violence, again and again and again for 30 years and more.

And the sad thing is provos still dont get it. Theyre *still* employing terrorism.

[EDIT] Forgot to insert link to crosstabulation of deaths [/EDIT]

hawkmoon269

Sand wrote:

If youre a realist, I cannot understand how you argue there was ever grounds for SF/IRAs terrorism, given the civil rights reform that was working throughout the late 60s and early 70s until SF/IRA drowed the political proccess in blood. The most I can allow was required was pure defence of Catholic estates from loyalist mobs that were attacking Catholic areas. There was never any grounds for SF/IRA other than that, and especially from the late 70s on.

Without wishing to get into a "what-aboutery" type of debate, it was actually the loyalists who escalated the conflict initially, not the Provos.

And if the civil rights reform was working so successfully why was it necessary for the British to send in troops in the first place?

What about the private armies the loyalists were forming at the start of the troubles?

I think you should read up a bit more about the conflict, I feel some of your analysis is a bit naive.

That said, like yourself I doubt if I would ever vote SF. It just wouldn't sit well with me.

Sand

And if the civil rights reform was working so successfully why was it necessary for the British to send in troops in the first place?

Ironically they were sent in to protect Catholic areas from loyalist mobs, precisely because the British government didnt feel the Stormont Parliment or its security forces could be trusted to do the job (That said, the first RUC man to die in the troubles was killed by Loyalists whose attempt to get into a Catholic area was being blocked by the RUC). The soldiers were welcomed on their patrols by the Catholic community at the time. The Unionists on the other hand had mixed feelings, as they viewed the deployment as more inteference in their affairs by the London government.

Unfortunately, it was a poor decision given the British Armys tendency to put trust in Unionism, which whilst a mistake was understandable given the other faction, the provos were not happy to see the British Army deployed as moves to protect the Catholic areas obviously threatened their support base for overthrowing Stormont by force, and they were desperately trying to provoke the British Army and score a propaganda coup. Which of course they eventually did.

And Im not referring to just Bloody Sunday, the mood had already been soured by several killings in Catholic areas by the British Army during the summer of 1970 - though the British Army had also killed several protestants the year before, and indeed an English visitor. So those killings would be more indicative of what happens when front line combat troops are deployed in a policing role than part of some sinister scheme.

What about the private armies the loyalists were forming at the start of the troubles?

Hardly helped by forming your own private army and leaving bombs to kill innocent people in shopping streets. All you do is help radicalise support in Loyalist areas for those private armies.

Its so obvious that I simply dont believe that SF/IRAs strategy wasnt to try and destroy any attempt to resolve the issues in Northern Ireland peacefully by using atrocities against civillians to prevent moves to peace.

I think you should read up a bit more about the conflict, I feel some of your analysis is a bit naive.

I have, I think you should look beyond the SF/IRA version of history. Its too sanitised for me to put much trust in it.

saltar

Cork wrote:

Maybe other groups looking for election should follow this example.

The IRA is on the way out. No government will tolerate any more from them.

I'm gathering from this post that you did'nt grow up in the troubles cork?
since when has any government tolerated the IRA?
The IRA if you dont already know was always and still is an illegal organisation, to both the Irish and British gov's. IRA members have been imprisoned for membership,beaten, shot and murdered by the security forces of both governments.So there's nothing new there.

mycroft

saltar wrote:

I'm gathering from this post that you did'nt grow up in the troubles cork?
since when has any government tolerated the IRA?
The IRA if you dont already know was always and still is an illegal organisation, to both the Irish and British gov's.

The activities of the IRA have been tolerated and ignored for the sake of the peace process for nigh on a decade. The NI bank robbery for example was only one of several high profile robberys commited by the IRA this year. IRA members were convicted this year of roaming around with a collection of weapons gardai uniforms and a list of TDs. 3 IRA men were roaming around colombia (either monitoring the peace process or bird watching I forget which is the excuse de jur) with false passports. IRA punishment squads still carry out ex judicary beatings and shootings. 3 IRA men murdered a Garda in cold blood in a "unsanctioned" IRA robbery. These have all been tolerated for the greater good of the peace process.

IRA members have been imprisoned for membership,beaten, shot and murdered by the security forces of both governments.So there's nothing new there.

And the IRA have beaten shot and murdered plenty of people. the nerve of someone bleating about civil rights for a group who, while on ceasefire, invented the "padre peo" punishment shooting (shot through the palm of your hands.) is more than a tad rich.

saltar

mycroft wrote:

The activities of the IRA have been tolerated and ignored for the sake of the peace process for nigh on a decade. The NI bank robbery for example was only one of several high profile robberys commited by the IRA this year. IRA members were convicted this year of roaming around with a collection of weapons gardai uniforms and a list of TDs. 3 IRA men were roaming around colombia (either monitoring the peace process or bird watching I forget which is the excuse de jur) with false passports. IRA punishment squads still carry out ex judicary beatings and shootings. 3 IRA men murdered a Garda in cold blood in a "unsanctioned" IRA robbery. These have all been tolerated for the greater good of the peace process.

your post makes absoloutely no sense whatsoever mycroft, you begin by saying that the IRA and these percieved actions have been tolerated by both goverments and yet in each case you listed you could'nt be further from the truth.

1. NI bank robbery - nobody from either the IRA or anyone else has been convicted. And yet both Gov's insist on blaming them. Tolerance? mmmm...

2. IRA men roaming around Columbia- were actually found innocent until the Right-wing Columbian Army suppoted by MI5 and CIA decided to hold their own military court sepperate from any judicial system (Kangaroo court) to find them guilty. Tolerance? mmm....

3. IRA men in Garda uniforms- are serving a 6yr sentence in prison for doing nothing at all. Just for being members of the IRA on Garda intelligence Tolerance? mmm....

4. Ira killing of Garda- 5 men are serving lenghty prison sentences for this offence? Tolerance?

I think you will need to be a bit clearer and more factual when you begin your argument Croft and stop trying to con yourself into a corner.Maybe you have a specific definition of what tolerance is? I'd love to know it.

mycroft wrote:

And the IRA have beaten shot and murdered plenty of people. the nerve of someone bleating about civil rights for a group who, while on ceasefire, invented the "padre peo" punishment shooting (shot through the palm of your hands.) is more than a tad rich.

And where Am I bleating about these Civil Rights that you so eloquently put MyCroft? :eek:
you seem to make stuff up as if people here will fall for such crap.
so expalin yourself!

mycroft

saltar wrote:

your post makes absoloutely no sense whatsoever mycroft, you begin by saying that the IRA and these percieved actions have been tolerated by both goverments and yet in each case you listed you could'nt be further from the truth.

1. NI bank robbery - nobody from either the IRA or anyone else has been convicted. And yet both Gov's insist on blaming them. Tolerance? mmmm...

No one else stands accused and yet the crime's timing and size and it's relevance to the peace process forced ministers to speak. No one has yet been convicted. As it stands the police seeem to be putting in place a
more complex charge about the sophisciated money laundering operation in place. An investigation that takes an immense amount of time.

2. IRA men roaming around Columbia- were actually found innocent until the Right-wing Columbian Army suppoted by MI5 and CIA decided to hold their own military court sepperate from any judicial system (Kangaroo court) to find them guilty. Tolerance? mmm....

And again, why were members of a paramilitary organisation traveling to another country, under false passports to observe a peace process/birdwatch.

3. IRA men in Garda uniforms- are serving a 6yr sentence in prison for doing nothing at all. Just for being members of the IRA on Garda intelligence Tolerance? mmm....

Doing nothing at all, before they were arrested. Who knows what they could have done. And as pointed by you being a ira member is a crime.

4. Ira killing of Garda- 5 men are serving lenghty prison sentences for this offence? Tolerance?

So basically what you are saying is how dare government(s) enforce the law? and isn't the enforcement of said laws an example of intolerance.

Yes, these are individual examples of IRA members breaking the law, and yes these are examples that the IRA members involved were punished (aside from the columbian three and one wonders about how current IRA activities have curtailed their triumphant return) but the point you refuse to see, is that the peace process has continued despite these obnoxious and sickeningly blatant examples of continued IRA activity, which suggests they're playing lip service to the overall aims of the peace process , and continuing extra curicular activities, while governments tolerant these actions for the greater good of the peace process.

I think you will need to be a bit clearer and more factual when you begin your argument Croft and stop trying to con yourself into a corner.Maybe you have a specific definition of what tolerance is? I'd love to know it.

See above. I gave specific examples of activities of the IRA while on ceasefire which should give question to the IRA's commitment to the peace process, but a blind eye has been turned for the greater good.

And where Am I bleating about these Civil Rights that you so eloquently put MyCroft? :eek:
you seem to make stuff up as if people here will fall for such crap.
so expalin yourself!

Look seriously

IRA members have been imprisoned for membership,beaten, shot and murdered by the security forces of both government

Being outraged by behaviour aganist an organisation that has commited the same outrages aganist innocent civilians is a tad hyprocritical, I mean, did Jean Mc Conville deserve to be beaten and shot and dumped in an unmarked grave? Being furious about the actions that have occured aganist IRA members, while the IRA have commited the exact same acts, while, clearly stating you're outraged aganist these abuses aganist IRA men, while ignoring the actions of the same group.

saltar

mycroft wrote:

So basically what you are saying is how dare government(s) enforce the law? and isn't the enforcement of said laws an example of intolerance..

No I'm not. I'll say it again if its not clear enough. where have both gov's been tolerant of the IRA in each of those examples???
and as you like to put words in other peoples mouths, where did I say "how dare Gov's enforce the law".
Where EXACTLY MYCROFT?????????????????

mycroft wrote:

See above. I gave specific examples of activities of the IRA while on ceasefire which should give question to the IRA's commitment to the peace process, but a blind eye has been turned for the greater good.

What Blind eye and where?
The Assembly has been suspended on numerous occasions.....

mycroft wrote:

Look seriously
Being outraged by behaviour aganist an organisation that has commited the same outrages aganist innocent civilians is a tad hyprocritical, I mean, did Jean Mc Conville deserve to be beaten and shot and dumped in an unmarked grave? Being furious about the actions that have occured aganist IRA members, while the IRA have commited the exact same acts, while, clearly stating you're outraged aganist these abuses aganist IRA men, while ignoring the actions of the same group.

Who is outraged and where exactly?

I am making very specific points and asking very specific questions on this issue. However your effort to deal with those points has been nothing but lies and claims that I somehow have said something different. Now either you need to grow up and learn how to debate properly or don't bother at all.

mycroft

saltar wrote:

No I'm not. I'll say it again if its not clear enough. where have both gov's been tolerant of the IRA in each of those examples???
and as you like to put words in other peoples mouths, where did I say "how dare Gov's enforce the law".
Where EXACTLY MYCROFT?????????????????

You stated these were examples of governments intolerance of IRA members I've merely pointed out while the individual members have been punished to a degree, the organisation has not and the peace process has continued in spite of IRA activity.

What Blind eye and where?
The Assembly has been suspended on numerous occasions.....

Yes suspended and put on hold, but not stopped, please spare us the faux outrage.

Who is outraged and where exactly?

saltar wrote:

IRA members have been imprisoned for membership,beaten, shot and murdered by the security forces of both government

The implication of this post is that IRA men have been murdered and beaten for membership of the IRA, why did you raise it if you didn't find it objectionable?

I am making very specific points and asking very specific questions on this issue. However your effort to deal with those points has been nothing but lies and claims that I somehow have said something different. Now either you need to grow up and learn how to debate properly or don't bother at all.

Really lets look at your contribution to this thread shall we?

saltar wrote:

I'm gathering from this post that you did'nt grow up in the troubles cork?
since when has any government tolerated the IRA?
The IRA if you dont already know was always and still is an illegal organisation, to both the Irish and British gov's. IRA members have been imprisoned for membership,beaten, shot and murdered by the security forces of both governments.So there's nothing new there.

Which would suggest you're outraged by the security forces treatment of IRA men, a claim you now deny. Also a snide "i know more about the troubles dig at cork"

saltar wrote:

your post makes absoloutely no sense whatsoever mycroft, you begin by saying that the IRA and these percieved actions have been tolerated by both goverments and yet in each case you listed you could'nt be further from the truth.

1. NI bank robbery - nobody from either the IRA or anyone else has been convicted. And yet both Gov's insist on blaming them. Tolerance? mmmm...

2. IRA men roaming around Columbia- were actually found innocent until the Right-wing Columbian Army suppoted by MI5 and CIA decided to hold their own military court sepperate from any judicial system (Kangaroo court) to find them guilty. Tolerance? mmm....

3. IRA men in Garda uniforms- are serving a 6yr sentence in prison for doing nothing at all. Just for being members of the IRA on Garda intelligence Tolerance? mmm....

4. Ira killing of Garda- 5 men are serving lenghty prison sentences for this offence? Tolerance?

I think you will need to be a bit clearer and more factual when you begin your argument Croft and stop trying to con yourself into a corner.Maybe you have a specific definition of what tolerance is? I'd love to know it.

And this is entirely rebuttal.

So what specific points about what specific instances have you raised? You've merely come on this thread ranted about security forces treatment of IRA men, and then denied being outraged by it. So what the hell are you talking about?

jman0

mycroft wrote:

I've merely pointed out while the individual members have been punished to a degree, the organisation has not and the peace process has continued in spite of IRA activity.

I'm going to interject here. I interpreted his post that he was pointing out that none of these activities you brought up have or are tolerated.
Now apparently you've qualified 'tolerated'... so your saying individual offenders are punished but not the entire organisation or the peace process as a whole.
And to this i'd just have to wonder how exactly you propose to punish the IRA being the case that they are already a proscribed organisation. Are you proposing extra legislation or something?
I'm suspecting you mean to punish SF, but then i'd have to remind you that you would really be punishing the majority of nationalists in NI, and i'm not sure you actually want to do that.
Maybe you feel the peace process shouldn't go on because of the actions being attributed to the IRA but well, that is nonsense.
By the way, that CAIN website has some interesting stuff.
Check out what was going on in 2002
http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/othelem/chron/ch02.htm
Would you argue that the Peace Process should have terminated because of all the Loyalist violence?

mycroft

jman0 wrote:

I'm going to interject here. I interpreted his post that he was pointing out that none of these activities you brought up have or are tolerated.
Now apparently you've qualified 'tolerated'... so your saying individual offenders are punished but not the entire organisation or the peace process as a whole.
And to this i'd just have to wonder how exactly you propose to punish the IRA being the case that they are already a proscribed organisation. Are you proposing extra legislation or something?
I'm suspecting you mean to punish SF, but then i'd have to remind you that you would really be punishing the majority of nationalists in NI, and i'm not sure you actually want to do that.
Maybe you feel the peace process shouldn't go on because of the actions being attributed to the IRA but well, that is nonsense.
By the way, that CAIN website has some interesting stuff.
Check out what was going on in 2002
http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/othelem/chron/ch02.htm
Would you argue that the Peace Process should have terminated because of all the Loyalist violence?

I'm merely pointing out that governments have been tolerating ex circuluar activities by the IRA over the last 7 years for the sake of the peace process. Thats an example of government tolerance of the IRA.

jman0

mycroft wrote:

I'm merely pointing out that governments have been tolerating ex circuluar activities by the IRA over the last 7 years for the sake of the peace process. Thats an example of government tolerance of the IRA.

I guess i have to disagree here.
How exactly have the governments "tolerated" this?
Are they refusing for instance, to press charges.
Not making arrests?
In my own opinion they are not tolerating anything; but now that there is no bombing campaign the more minor things like punishment beatings are getting more scrutiny by a partisan media, and political parties.
Case in point: the differences in attention given to republican activities vs loyalist activities. Follow my above link for example.

mycroft

jman0 wrote:

I guess i have to disagree here.
How exactly have the governments "tolerated" this?
Are they refusing for instance, to press charges.
Not making arrests?
In my own opinion they are not tolerating anything; but now that there is no bombing campaign the more minor things like punishment beatings are getting more scrutiny by a partisan media, and political parties.
Case in point: the differences in attention given to republican activities vs loyalist activities. Follow my above link for example.

yes tut tut how dare people be horrified by puinishment beatings.

They are tolerating because they are continuing to try to press forward with the GFA agreement inspite of IRA activity during their "ceasefire"

jman0

mycroft wrote:

yes tut tut how dare people be horrified by puinishment beatings.

Indeed.
Danny Morrison wrote an article along those lines recently.
http://www.dannymorrison.ie/articles/myths.php

mycroft

jman0 wrote:

Indeed.
Danny Morrison wrote an article along those lines recently.
http://www.dannymorrison.ie/articles/myths.php

Danny unoffical cheerleader of SF Morrison

I like this bit

The IRA viewed community policing as a major distraction from its chief purpose and suspected that the RUC indulged criminals in order to tie down IRA resources and demoralise the nationalist community which might, just might, out of desperation, look favourably to the return of a ‘reformed RUC’ as a possible solution.

Brillant. The RUC unabe to enter certain areas of belfast without a massive show of force because of sustained republican riots "indugled" criminals?

And viewed? As in past tense? Community policing units have been quiet the last few months, but the IRA haven't stopped puinishment beatings.

What dribbling piece of quasi logic is this? Maddening piece of conspiracy theory jibberish n all, this is, what relavance does it have to this thread?